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  #1  
Old 03-31-2009, 5:08 PM
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Default Are Millet adjustable Rings a suitable alternative to a 20 MOA base?

Hi, I wanted to join up on the shooting sessions you guys are having. I am an absolute noob to long range rifles (I know squat). But first I have to get my rifle capable of even going out that far. From reading the other threads and doing my own research on the net, I know that a 20MOA base is pretty much necessary to shoot out to 1,000+ yards. I've been reading where guys with Leupold Mark 4's still need a 20MOA base to go out that far.

Anyways, my gun is the project Mauser 98 in .308 winchester and I'm having problems finding a 20MOA base that will work. It's a converted ex military gun with a commercial .308 barrel (not a 7.62x51). Previous owner had it tapped for bases and it has a two piece weaver set of bases on there now. The problem is it still has the military 'hump', and the screw holes are not done by any standard. The rear base is from a Remington 700 that I had to modify with a dremel to match the screw holes on the receiver. It fits. But the problem is there is no commercial 20MOA bases that will fit it because--well, it's not standard.

So to get a 20 MOA base on there, it would have to be custom made, or find a base close enough to be modified to fit the screw holes. I was looking around on the internet and found out about the Millet adjustable windage scope rings:
http://www.millettsights.com/control...oc_weaverstyle
So instead of putting on a 20MOA base, could I just use the Millet scope rings and forego the 20MOA bases? Thanks!
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  #2  
Old 03-31-2009, 5:19 PM
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Aside from those rings being a waste of money..

Those rings would give you adjustable windage (left and right axis).. it would not mitigate your need for a 20 MOA base which effects the up and down axis movement.

As you've mentioned, you don't NEED a 20 MOA base depending on the scope. Can't really go wrong with one though as it opens up your options.

Is there such a thing as 2-piece 20 MOA bases? I've never had to look into them.. but they may be easier to custom fit if such a beast exists.

Last edited by wildcard; 03-31-2009 at 5:22 PM..
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Old 03-31-2009, 5:37 PM
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Nightforce makes 2-piece picatinny base with 20moa cant for the M700.

OR

You could get Burris Signature Weaver Type rings with the polymer offset inserts. They will get the 20moa of cant.

OR

You could shim the current base. (Not ideal but possible)
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Old 03-31-2009, 5:50 PM
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Ken Farrell makes a one piece 20 moa base for the Mauser 98 and shows it in stock. I have 2 of his bases on Swedish Mauser 96 actions and they have worked extremely well.

Pics from his website.

http://www.kenfarrell.com/MAU-98-1-20.html



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Last edited by Pthfndr; 03-31-2009 at 5:53 PM..
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  #5  
Old 03-31-2009, 9:38 PM
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I have also used the Farrell bases on mausers with good results.
The action will need to be drilled to match the base though and that might be a problem in this case if there's an existing hole in the wrong place.
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  #6  
Old 04-01-2009, 6:56 AM
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Try the farrell base and see if you can get holes lined up for it...or new holes drilled.

The problem with shimming one base or using typical windage adjustable rings is that the rings aren't in the same plane anymore once adjustment is made. Lots of lapping may be needed and in some cases won't fix the problem. It will put torquing pressure on the scope tube and cause problems with tracking, parallax, etc. The Burris Signature Zee rings take care of that problem with the pivoting inserts. They allign to keep the scope tube stress free, so to speak.

So if the Farrell base doesn't work, the Zee rings may be a better option.
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Old 04-01-2009, 10:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rksimple View Post
Try the farrell base and see if you can get holes lined up for it...or new holes drilled.

The problem with shimming one base or using typical windage adjustable rings is that the rings aren't in the same plane anymore once adjustment is made. Lots of lapping may be needed and in some cases won't fix the problem. It will put torquing pressure on the scope tube and cause problems with tracking, parallax, etc. The Burris Signature Zee rings take care of that problem with the pivoting inserts. They allign to keep the scope tube stress free, so to speak.

So if the Farrell base doesn't work, the Zee rings may be a better option.
That's why it's not ideal.

If you just have to convert this Mauser, probably the best option is to get the Farrell base and if necessary have to old holes welded up and D&T new ones.

I don't know what else you have invested in this Mauser action but you're not going to save any money in the long run by building it than if you got a M700 barreled action and built on that.
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Old 04-01-2009, 8:03 PM
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Hi guys. Thank you for all your advice. I am definitely wanting to go out with you guys when you shoot. I know absolutely diddly squat about long range precisions shooting. I have been wanting to learn for a long time. I read the articles and all the information I can get, but reading doesn't do that much without having some practical experience for someone show you what the fancy terms that you read about mean in the real world. I would be ever so grateful to learn off of you guys.

Quote:
Originally Posted by buffybuster View Post
I don't know what else you have invested in this Mauser action but you're not going to save any money in the long run by building it than if you got a M700 barreled action and built on that.
I'll tell you a little about my rig, because I am worried that you may not think it is up to par to be shooting with you. Like I said I wanted to learn long range shooting. But I did not want to spend a whole lot of money until I tried it, and see if it is something that I really want to get into and shell out the $$ for. Like, when I first started playing guitar, I did not jump into the $5,000 Gibson Les Paul that I have now. Same thing with guns. I know $800 is an entry level Remington, but it is still quite a chunk of change, and that is not including the change that I have to spend on scopes, rings, bases, etc. So I wanted to start off cheap. Like real cheap.

This is the rifle I have now.



I started with a Mauser 98 that I picked up off of Gunbroker for about $100. The bore is good, the action is fairly smooth, and it was already chambered in .308 winchester. This is what it looks like when I first got it:



So far, I polished the barrel, parkerized the receiver, and added an FA enterprises Mauser target stock that I got off of ebay for $125. So far, for everything in the first picture, it is a total cost of $250.

Alright, alright. Do you think that my gun is worthy enough to shoot with you guys?

I am still in the process of working it up. I am ordering Leupold steel rings in extra high. I am ordering this scope: http://www.opticsplanet.net/leapers-...luminated.html it was $80 including shipping

In regards to the 20 MOA base, I managed to find this on ebay:http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...:X:RTQ:US:1123

I spoke to the seller, and he can sell it as a blank and I can put the drill holes to match my rifle.

This rifle was just sort of an ongoing hobby, to build a low cost rifle for me to get my feet wet on the range. Is it good enough that I can come hang with you guys? Thanks.
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  #9  
Old 04-01-2009, 8:26 PM
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Don't let these guys tell you a Mauser is a draw back. Just ask Ryan and Randall what some people can do with a used Mauser

And when that barrel isn't doing it for you, Lothar Walther makes match barrels for the 98 http://www.lothar-walther.com/282.php

I love your stock. But then I'm a little biased towards wood.

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Last edited by Pthfndr; 04-01-2009 at 8:28 PM..
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  #10  
Old 04-01-2009, 8:27 PM
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Have you shot this rifle for groups at 100yds? You polished the outside of the barrel but how's the inside? Did you bed the action into the stock?

That picatinny rail looks like an EGW model. They make good stuff and as long as it is installed properly should work well.

IMO the scope is your weak link. I could be wrong, but I don't think it's going to have the amount of adjustment necessary and may not track precisely enough.

LR shooting is not really a hobby that you can do on the cheap. You end up spending more in the long run.

BTW do you reload?
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Old 04-01-2009, 8:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pthfndr View Post
Don't let these guys tell you a Mauser is a draw back. Just ask Ryan and Randall what some people can do with a used Mauser

I love your stock. But then I'm a little biased towards wood.

That's a $1500 Nightforce scope on that Mauser and that barrel doesn't quite seem stock either.

BTW I don't have any preference on actions. Almost all actions have the capacity to be made into a precision rifle. The Remington M700 is the most popular because it is one of the easiest to true and also is used by the military. Before the M700, there were M70's and before them the Springfield '03 (Mauser knockoff).
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Last edited by buffybuster; 04-01-2009 at 8:33 PM..
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  #12  
Old 04-01-2009, 8:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by submaniac View Post
I'll tell you a little about my rig, because I am worried that you may not think it is up to par to be shooting with you."

"Like, when I first started playing guitar, I did not jump into the $5,000 Gibson Les Paul that I have now. Same thing with guns."

Alright, alright. Do you think that my gun is worthy enough to shoot with you guys?

Is it good enough that I can come hang with you guys?

It's not about whether we think your rifle or your skills are good enough to shoot with us. We WANT new shooters that are interested in LR shooting to come out and learn. With that said, your rifle needs to have the necessary accuracy, your optics and ammo the necessary precision to respond correctly to adjustment. If you don't have that, it can be very frustrating for the shooter and the spotters since you will not be hitting where you are aiming. It can turn into a waste of time and ammo.

If you and your rifle are capable of maintaining ~1moa groups (~1"@100yds), your scope has about 40moa of elevation available and it tracks consistently, you have all the necessary tools to learn.

That's it. That's all.
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Old 04-01-2009, 9:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by submaniac View Post
I am ordering Leupold steel rings in extra high. I am ordering this scope: http://www.opticsplanet.net/leapers-...luminated.html it was $80 including shipping

In regards to the 20 MOA base, I managed to find this on ebay:http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...:X:RTQ:US:1123

I spoke to the seller, and he can sell it as a blank and I can put the drill holes to match my rifle.
Some feedback on your choices...

The extra high leupold rings are going to be too tall.
All you need are medum height rings.
You want the scope as close to the barrel as possible without touching.
The extra high rings are going to cause a cheekweld problem in that the cheekpiece on your rifle is going to have to be raised so far that the bolt won't cycle anymore.

Don't buy the $80 scope.
It's truly a waste of money.
I can see you are doing this on the cheap, but that scope is going to be a dissapointment and a waste of a good $80.
Step up to the bare minimum precision rifle scope.
That would be the Bushnell Elite 3200 10x with a mildot reticle.
http://www.midwesthuntersoutlet.com/item.aspx?pid=1127
It's $185, but it's got repeatable target turrets that will allow you to actually learn precision rifle shooting instead of messing with your uber-cheap scope that won't repeat or track correctly.
If you won't step-up for a functional scope, I would say that the rifle is not going to be consistent enough to come out and learn to shoot.

The EGW base should work out fine.
You are going to need to de-horn your action though as the military action has the clip charger slots standing proud in the rear while that rail was made for a commercial action without a clip charger slot.
Make sure that someone drills the holes properly so that the mount is sitting straight and square on the action.

Ammo is the next thing.
If you are not reloading yet, get some federal gold medal match or black hills match with the a 175gr matchking bullet.
Match grade ammo is not cheap so don't be suprised when it's $1.25 to $1.50 a shot.
You will need at least 50 rounds per day so budget for that now so you don't get sticker shock later.
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Last edited by ar15barrels; 04-01-2009 at 9:13 PM..
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Old 04-01-2009, 9:19 PM
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Randall,

He might need the high rings to clear the factory Mauser safety. I would recommend getting a low profile safety fitted. Then the lower rings would be fine.
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Old 04-01-2009, 9:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buffybuster View Post
Randall,

He might need the high rings to clear the factory Mauser safety. I would recommend getting a low profile safety fitted. Then the lower rings would be fine.
All my Swedes use medium rings, Badger, TPS and something else I forget. The safety will clear just fine. I have no problems with my NF, Leupold or USO scopes. It's just not as easy to use. Although I can't remember the last time I actually used the safety. High or extra high would be too much.
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Old 04-01-2009, 10:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buffybuster View Post
Randall,

He might need the high rings to clear the factory Mauser safety. I would recommend getting a low profile safety fitted. Then the lower rings would be fine.
I just took the safeties off my mauser bolt shrouds and install triggers with external safeties.
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Old 04-01-2009, 10:21 PM
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.......
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Old 04-01-2009, 10:36 PM
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........
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Old 04-01-2009, 10:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
........

Copy cat!!! I typed something in the wrong thread and couldnt delete the post. Hate it when that happens. Now back to your regular scheduled programming.
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Old 04-01-2009, 10:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StraightShooter View Post
Copy cat!!! I typed something in the wrong thread and couldnt delete the post. Hate it when that happens. Now back to your regular scheduled programming.
I was not copying you.
Count the dots.
My response was the next most logical conclusion that would be drawn from your statement as it was posted.
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Old 04-01-2009, 10:50 PM
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The next most logical response would be:
.........
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Old 04-01-2009, 10:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
I was not copying you.
Count the dots.
My response was the next most logical conclusion that would be drawn from your statement as it was posted.
Ahh yes, i see that now. Very sneaky.
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Old 04-01-2009, 10:55 PM
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What would follow .........., ?
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Old 04-01-2009, 10:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StraightShooter View Post
What would follow .........., ?
no comma.
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Old 04-01-2009, 11:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
no comma.

Huh? Commas are not allowed? Or the next logical step would be to delete the comma?
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Old 04-01-2009, 11:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StraightShooter View Post
Huh? Commas are not allowed? Or the next logical step would be to delete the comma?
no comment.
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Old 04-01-2009, 11:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
no comment.



And to answer the OP's original question "Are Millet adjustable rings a suitable alternative to a 20 MOA base?" The answer No.
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Old 03-12-2010, 2:50 AM
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You don't need a multi-thousand dollar custom rifle to hit targets at long range. Your rifle also doesn't need to have a heavy profile barrel, or have tactical written on it anywhere. What you do need, is a rifle in a suitable caliber (more on this later), that fits you properly, and that you can shoot well with. It should have a good trigger, and be able to shoot groups of under 1MOA in terms of mechanical accuracy. Heavy barrels are no more capable of hitting a target at long range than spotter weight barrels of the same quality, for the first few rounds - however they will hold accuracy longer as they are stiffer and take more time to warm up.

I also considered the Millet scope which has been very good to me so far. But it was brought to my attention thanks to Three-seven, that some of the recent top Millet tactical scopes fail to let you know how many turns you have made with the turret as they lack the graduations on the turret as the knob rises or falls. This is echoed in a review at sniper-central.com on a tactical model. My Buck Gold on my 50 rifle luckily has them, and the brand new monster LRS scope has them, but some of the other old tactical models do not have them, I will watch out for this if get one.
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Old 03-12-2010, 7:20 AM
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Wow, really? You revive a dead post just to say that you need a multi-thousand dollar custom rifle to hit targets at long ranges huh?

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