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FFL's Forum For open discussion between FFLs and polite questions for FFLs. |
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Ammo Sales / Transfer on 1/1/2018
Has anyone received instructions on what we're supposed to do on 1/1/2018? I remember reading the BGC portion doesn't take effect until 2019. Is it business as usual for us between 1/1/2018 and BGC in 2019?
E.g., no extra paperwork, no extra tracking, nothing, but hand over the ammo and collect payment? I've tried contacting DOJ and have been on hold up to 30 mins each time and couldn't wait any longer. I have a lot of customers asking if I can receive ammo for them. Currently I receive for customers and leave it up front for them to pick-up. Can I still do that if I already know they are > 21? Is that still considered FTF if the receptionist is delivering the ammo? (I'm guessing no). If they do see us directly, do I need to do anything more than just hand them their ammo? Not sure if anyone got any info or saw anything I missed. Thanks ---- I heard back from CA DOJ (in writing) and received the following info: Q. When processing internet transfers of ammunition for customers what are the fee limits? $10 per transaction, per PC 30364 Q. What information is required to be on the receipts for ammo sales or internet transfers to customers? A. Nothing at this time. Record keeping doesn’t start until July 1, 2019. PC 30352 states what information needs to be collected and recorded. Q. Are there *any* records we have to keep on ammunition sales until the new system is in place in July 2019? A. No. You should check to make sure there is no local ordinance that requires you to maintain ammunition sales records. Q. Previously in 2017 when we sold ammo our receipts would simply say "Box of 9mm" or similar. I wanted to confirm that was still acceptable until the new requirements in July 2019. I also wanted to ensure I did not need any other paperwork to process ammunition sales. A. At this point in time, that is still acceptable for ammunition sales. --- Received answers from a different DOJ rep today 1/9/2018 -- Question 1: Internet sales are addressed in section 4263(b). In short, you may charge a storage fee that you and your customer agree on. We do not regulate storage fees. Question 2: At this point we do not require specific info to be recorded on receipts. Question 3: At this point we do not require you to keep any records of ammo sales. However, it may be a good idea for you to use a database, Excel spreadsheet, etc. and form a habit of recording information in anticipation of regulations that will be implemented in July 2019. Consider collecting the customer’s name, copy of their ID, date of purchase, make, caliber, and quantity of ammo. Remember, we do not currently require this but it may be a good idea to get in the habit of asking for this info. --- Received feedback today 1/11/2018 Basically I was asking what happens during a PPT Ammo Transfer Me: Does the seller hand me the ammo and then I push it over to the buyer? DOJ: There are no requirements stating that you have to physically handle or touch the ammo. The seller can place it on the counter, or the floor, and the buyer can take it from the counter or floor. Me: If it's a lot of ammo do I have to handle it or do I just need to witness the seller handing it over to the buyer? DOJ: The customer can place it on the counter (or, if there is a lot of ammo, it can be left on the floor). Me: I'd prefer to not have to lift heavy boxes of ammo just to hand it from the seller to the buyer if not required. DOJ: You do not have to handle the ammo. -- Basically you just have to watch the seller give ammo to buyer and then it's done.
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UG Imports - Fremont, CA FFL - Transfers, New Gun Sales Closure Schedule: http://ugimports.com/closed web: http://ugimports.com/calguns / email: sales@ugimports.com phone: (510) 371-GUNS (4867) Crowdsourced 2A Calendar I AM THE MAJORITY!!! Amazon Links Posted May be Paid Links Last edited by ugimports; 01-11-2018 at 10:04 AM.. Reason: Added 1/9/2018 info - Added info on how to handle PPTs |
#2
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We will probably get the same 1/1/18 Bulletin BS that seems to be the way they operate. Unfortunately we are dealing with speculation instead of fact. And what will be a proper fee for this service. Do we charge per transaction or per box. I think we could be taken advantage of or be losing business given that we are making decisions in the dark.
This particular rollout has a tremendous amount of BS and potential impact attached to it unfortunately. . .
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Golden State Tactical <---click here > An FORMER Outpost Deep In the Heart of the Beast! Home of "California Compliant" AR15 Parts and Magazines and some of the lowest priced guns in the state!!! |
#3
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I've heard nothing...
__________________
American soldier by choice. Made in America by the Grace of God. So, now it is ironic that the State whittles away at the right of its citizens to defend themselves from the possible oppression of their State. Judge Roger T. Benitez LCM's ruled legal 3/29/2019 |
#4
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I also have nothing but a bunch of customers wanting answers. I assume we as FFL's will become instant ammo dealers on the first. I guess places like Walmart are SOL on the first.
I have no clue how to deal with receiving ammo for my customers.
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You, you, and you: Panic. The rest of you, come with me. Incoming fire has the right of way. |
#5
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No idea either. Same questions and vague responses here too.
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Interstate Transfers $100 (DROS included with the price) Email acesjewelryandloan@hotmail.com if you need us to do a transfer! Or call 626-968-5900 Follow us on Facebook @acesjewelryandloan Need Cash Fast? Get a loan on your firearms here! |
#6
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That is funny, I had not thought about that since most places that sell ammo is also a FFL. Too bad for Walmart, perhaps they will regret all the violations that they had.
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Kemasa. False signature edited by Paul: Banned from the FFL forum due to being rude and insulting. Doing this continues his abuse. Don't tell someone to read the rules he wrote or tell him that he is wrong. Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein |
#7
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*sigh* -- I was really hoping I just missed some notice/bulletin...
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UG Imports - Fremont, CA FFL - Transfers, New Gun Sales Closure Schedule: http://ugimports.com/closed web: http://ugimports.com/calguns / email: sales@ugimports.com phone: (510) 371-GUNS (4867) Crowdsourced 2A Calendar I AM THE MAJORITY!!! Amazon Links Posted May be Paid Links |
#10
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i tried asking for info while checking on my cfd app. didn’t get much other than ffls dont have to get a separate permit to sell ammo. this is so confusing 🤪
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro |
#12
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I would imagine that WalMart has some lawyers who have been figuring it out.
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#13
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How can they figure it out? CA DOJ hasn't given the rules yet. It's like trying to figure out how to register an AW before the regulations were released.
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UG Imports - Fremont, CA FFL - Transfers, New Gun Sales Closure Schedule: http://ugimports.com/closed web: http://ugimports.com/calguns / email: sales@ugimports.com phone: (510) 371-GUNS (4867) Crowdsourced 2A Calendar I AM THE MAJORITY!!! Amazon Links Posted May be Paid Links |
#14
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Quote:
They will be required to have a designated ammo person with a Certificate of Eligibility in the sporting goods store handling the ammo transactions (which may be a pain). The customer will purchase the ammo, pay the sales tax and be on their way. WalMarts in California need a AMMUNITION VENDOR LICENSE, they don't need an FFL. They have shelves full of ammo. As of January 1, 2018, they can still sell ammo if they have the AMMUNITION VENDOR LICENSE. https://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/a...s/bof-1021.pdf https://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/a...nt-reasons.pdf Last edited by sandiego67; 12-21-2017 at 10:31 PM.. |
#15
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All the record keeping requirements went away?
For example I saw this: Quote:
I also saw some reference to CA DOJ storing ammo sales information, but it doesn't say that is tied to the background checks or not. So I'm not sure if that sales information collection starts in 2018 or not. This was just info that was part of: http://vig.cdn.sos.ca.gov/2016/gener...mplete-vig.pdf I'm trying to find the actual penal code, but am not having luck. Can you send the links to the full penal code and what is effective on 1/1/2018 vs later in 2019? It sounds like you understand what's going on and can educate all of us.
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UG Imports - Fremont, CA FFL - Transfers, New Gun Sales Closure Schedule: http://ugimports.com/closed web: http://ugimports.com/calguns / email: sales@ugimports.com phone: (510) 371-GUNS (4867) Crowdsourced 2A Calendar I AM THE MAJORITY!!! Amazon Links Posted May be Paid Links Last edited by ugimports; 12-21-2017 at 11:04 PM.. |
#16
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Quote:
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You, you, and you: Panic. The rest of you, come with me. Incoming fire has the right of way. |
#17
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Quote:
https://www.nraila.org/articles/2017...nistrative-law http://michellawyers.com/wp-content/...oj-regular.pdf I don't have access to specific evidence showing WalMart has addressed the issue also but as a huge corporation with significant liability as well as profit motive, I assume that they are addressing this also Last edited by sandiego67; 12-22-2017 at 10:23 AM.. |
#18
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Quote:
I have no idea what the ammunition sales requirements are and don't want to violate them.
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UG Imports - Fremont, CA FFL - Transfers, New Gun Sales Closure Schedule: http://ugimports.com/closed web: http://ugimports.com/calguns / email: sales@ugimports.com phone: (510) 371-GUNS (4867) Crowdsourced 2A Calendar I AM THE MAJORITY!!! Amazon Links Posted May be Paid Links |
#19
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Quote:
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#20
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That's what I'm trying to confirm as well, but as it stands I can't find it. I saw BGC is in 2019, but nothing else confirming what, if anything, changes between 1/1/2018 and 2019.
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UG Imports - Fremont, CA FFL - Transfers, New Gun Sales Closure Schedule: http://ugimports.com/closed web: http://ugimports.com/calguns / email: sales@ugimports.com phone: (510) 371-GUNS (4867) Crowdsourced 2A Calendar I AM THE MAJORITY!!! Amazon Links Posted May be Paid Links |
#21
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Quote:
Anyone handling firearms or ammo in an FFL or AV must have a COE |
#22
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I call it a )(*&%$TAX!!!
__________________
American soldier by choice. Made in America by the Grace of God. So, now it is ironic that the State whittles away at the right of its citizens to defend themselves from the possible oppression of their State. Judge Roger T. Benitez LCM's ruled legal 3/29/2019 |
#23
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Finally getting around to figuring out how my fees schedule is going to work. Only PPTs are $5 by regulation. If they don't bring the ammo in, we can charge whatever storage fees we want.
Really the biggest deal in all of this is sales tax. I think we are on safe footing on a PPT not to require sales tax. So those will just be $5 and nothing to it. I expect to get like zero of those. It is being the receiver that is going to be a potential pitfall, especially for stupid dealers who are running their mouths about doing all of this for free. You know customers are going to want to not pay sales tax or pay it with their credit card, which immediately puts you at a loss. Either way, you still have to track the sales tax and submit it to the BOE. What a pain. This is just a fat mess. A dude orders $1000 worth of ammo, I have to collect $72.50 in sales tax and that is going to cost me $2 in processing fees. That isn't horrible, so maybe I will just do a flat rate of $20 for cash check payment and $30 for credit cards. I might also reserve the right to change my amounts at anytime for any reason (if a dude comes in wanting to pick up $10K worth). Thoughts?
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www.tenpercentfirearms.com was open from 2005 until 2018. I now own Westside Arms. |
#24
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Reading the regulations, I am not sure a guy ordering ammo online and having it shipped to us is even a " Private Party (non-vendor) Ammunition Sale".
http://michellawyers.com/wp-content/...oj-regular.pdf So I will just err on the side of my profits and the fact I am the only ammo vendor in town.
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www.tenpercentfirearms.com was open from 2005 until 2018. I now own Westside Arms. |
#25
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Quote:
__________________
Kemasa. False signature edited by Paul: Banned from the FFL forum due to being rude and insulting. Doing this continues his abuse. Don't tell someone to read the rules he wrote or tell him that he is wrong. Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein |
#26
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Quote:
CASH ONLY for ammo transfer fees and Sales tax payments. Logging in and logging out Ammo is going to be a PITA
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Last edited by ASD1; 12-27-2017 at 9:04 AM.. |
#27
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You have 1.5 years to figure it out!
I just can't believe how stupid it is we start doing this now when we don't have to check anything. There is zero point except to collect sales tax.
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www.tenpercentfirearms.com was open from 2005 until 2018. I now own Westside Arms. |
#28
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Not quite, harassment is also a point, which is likely the main purpose, but the added money they also like.
__________________
Kemasa. False signature edited by Paul: Banned from the FFL forum due to being rude and insulting. Doing this continues his abuse. Don't tell someone to read the rules he wrote or tell him that he is wrong. Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein |
#29
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This is going to be a hot mess come the 1st of the year. I doubt that this is going to work out well for either the FFl or the customer. I predict a lot of bootleg ammo coming in from out of State and cannot wait to see the litigation going forward.
At some point we just have to draw a line in the sand and refuse to comply. |
#30
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Quote:
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www.tenpercentfirearms.com was open from 2005 until 2018. I now own Westside Arms. |
#31
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Here is what I am going to post.
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www.tenpercentfirearms.com was open from 2005 until 2018. I now own Westside Arms. |
#32
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So let me get this clear:
"A" comes in and buys ammo off the shelf and pays price plus tax. "B" orders ammo from XYZ Ammo Sales in Nebraska, has it shipped to you, and you transfer the shipment to "B" (plus any fee) minus sales tax...?
__________________
American soldier by choice. Made in America by the Grace of God. So, now it is ironic that the State whittles away at the right of its citizens to defend themselves from the possible oppression of their State. Judge Roger T. Benitez LCM's ruled legal 3/29/2019 |
#33
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No, I think he is collecting sales tax in Option "B".
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#34
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Nope, the business has to collect sales tax.
__________________
Kemasa. False signature edited by Paul: Banned from the FFL forum due to being rude and insulting. Doing this continues his abuse. Don't tell someone to read the rules he wrote or tell him that he is wrong. Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein |
#36
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Quote:
all i know is the people with 03ffl + coe are gonna be popular folks and there is no way to stop the illegal co-ops that will sprout up with these holders and their close friends.
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Quote:
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#37
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How about when a customer complains, we all ask what organization they belong to that is fighting the BS ? 99 % of the 10 million gun owners in CA are going to want to know how this happened, when they have to pay an extra 30.00 for a brick of 22 lr.
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#38
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I know that BOE has ruled that we collect tax on a firearm because we are the considered the retailer of the firearm due to the registration of the firearm, but until ammo is "registered" to the consumer why do we collect Tax prior to that?
__________________
American soldier by choice. Made in America by the Grace of God. So, now it is ironic that the State whittles away at the right of its citizens to defend themselves from the possible oppression of their State. Judge Roger T. Benitez LCM's ruled legal 3/29/2019 |
#39
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Because it is going through your business. As far as they are concerned you are the retailer for the ammo as well, unless the seller collected the sales tax.
__________________
Kemasa. False signature edited by Paul: Banned from the FFL forum due to being rude and insulting. Doing this continues his abuse. Don't tell someone to read the rules he wrote or tell him that he is wrong. Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein |
#40
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Gotcha!
__________________
American soldier by choice. Made in America by the Grace of God. So, now it is ironic that the State whittles away at the right of its citizens to defend themselves from the possible oppression of their State. Judge Roger T. Benitez LCM's ruled legal 3/29/2019 |
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