Rifle for Appelseed (.22lr)

[afrancke]

Originally Posted by as_rocketman

Actually, we did just that at the Advanced Appleseed in July at Burro. Worked out well. We're going to do another on October 19-20.

Nice! Totally agree that you don't "need" 1/4 MOA or 0.1 mil adjustments. My logic is simply that although you can't guarantee that a scope with this granularity of adjustment also is mechanically sound and tracks well, I think it's more likely you'll find such a scope with 1/4 MOA or 0.1 mil turrets rather than 1 MOA or 1/2 MOA turrets.

I should have also probably added that as an Appleseed attendee you really want MOA and not mil system for Appleseed instruction.

Definitely don't do what I did and try to use an ACOG. For one thing, depending on model the clicks are a bit odd (either 1/3 MOA or 1/2 MOA) as I recall and more importantly, these are not designed to be adjusted between shots or strings of fire. The clicks will only take full effect after either the first shot and attendant recoil impulse or after you whack the side of the prism housing with a weighty object (I used a screwdriver handle, much to the amusement of all lookers-on).

[afrancke]

Originally Posted by jmbrown

I also hadn't heard if Appleseed until joining this forum but am excited to go and shoot one and it looks like exactly the tradition and back to the basics that this county needs!

If the description excites you, wait until you go - it will be even better than you expected!

[as_rocketman]

Originally Posted by afrancke

Nice! Totally agree that you don't "need" 1/4 MOA or 0.1 mil adjustments. My logic is simply that although you can't guarantee that a scope with this granularity of adjustment also is mechanically sound and tracks well, I think it's more likely you'll find such a scope with 1/4 MOA or 0.1 mil turrets rather than 1 MOA or 1/2 MOA turrets.

Yeah, that's probably true. However these days even the cheap scopes are 1/4 MOA adjustable as a rule.

Also, sometimes Appleseed brings out the good ol' rifles that have been in the family for decades... At our last shoot one of the students had a 1970's vintage Bushnell with 1/2 MOA clicks. It tracked just fine. We do an abbreviated "box test" as part of our prep in the Advanced Appleseed.

Mils aren't too different -- 3.6 MOA per mil, and everything else is the same. They confer certain advantages but they aren't necessary. Most Mil-Dot scopes are big money anyway. Never had one on the line.

Originally Posted by afrancke

Definitely don't do what I did and try to use an ACOG. For one thing, depending on model the clicks are a bit odd (either 1/3 MOA or 1/2 MOA) as I recall and more importantly, these are not designed to be adjusted between shots or strings of fire. The clicks will only take full effect after either the first shot and attendant recoil impulse or after you whack the side of the prism housing with a weighty object (I used a screwdriver handle, much to the amusement of all lookers-on).

As seen in pictures upthread, my go-to rifle wears an ACOG TA33. It's not a precision scope, it's a fighting scope, but if you understand its idiosyncrasies it performs well in field shooting. My AR will knock down Rifleman scores at 25m or at full distance without issue.

You're correct, they are 1/2 MOA per click. Also some need seating after adjustment, though mine doesn't appear to require it. What I recommend is just shoot a group after adjustment, and expect the first shot to be a flier. The scope should settle after the first shot.

...oh, and once dialed in, leave it. Forever if possible. ACOGs work best if you stick to a particular load. More traditional hunting scopes are easier to adjust if you shoot a variety of ammunition, i.e., for taking different game. In contrast a soldier pretty much shoots issue ammo and that's it. That's why ACOGs and ordinary but quality scopes are different.

[kkp]

Hi Rocketman, I'm gonna bug you again, if'n you don't mind.

Got a pair of Ruger 10/22's! I have the 10/22-RB Carbine mentioned above:

Ruger 10/22-RB Carbine (model 1103)


AND I picked up a second, so my wife and I can use the same kind of gun (or I can bring a friend!), this one is the Ruger K10/22RBPBTC "All Weather" Carbine (model 1256)


I have tech sights (rail version) on the wood one, and NoDak Spud NDS-200 sights on the synthetic one. The rear sights are on, at least; I'll install the front sights (tech sight fronts for each) as soon as my brass punch set is delivered next week and I can knock out the stock ones.

My question is this: On these Stock 10/22s, both of which have the barrel bands, do I want to mount the stud for the sling just barely in front of the band (almost touching, barely a sliver between them), which is about 1" from the from of the stock? (Appleseed Project website says 1" from forend but the model pictured doesn't have the barrel band which lies right about at 1") Option B seems to be to put it about an inch farther towards the trigger, about an inch to the other side of the barrel band. Googling images of "Appleseed liberty rifle" seems to show a few set up like that, which is a lot farther than the 1" called for by the ASP website. The option that's towards the front is in a pretty flimsy part on the stock, but putting it farther back gets it mighty close to the forward hand, since there isn't really a huge handhold space on these little rifles.

EDIT: Nevermind. I realized I didn't want to wait days, hours or even minutes for a response. I read up at Rimfire Central, poked around online, and came to the conclusion that about an inch back from the barrel band is the way to go. I'll post up a quick tutorial thread for future reference on how-to.

[as_rocketman]

No problem, you haven't bothered me yet...

As you figured out, the stud should be on the trigger side of the barrel band.

Its location isn't critical. People just say to have it at least an inch back so that the stock doesn't crack.

Beyond that, the ideal place for the swivel stud is so that your support hand naturally rests right against it. This is to make the position of your support hand as repeatable as possible -- and it's only possible if the swivel is on the trigger side of the barrel band.

But most people have a little leeway in this positioning, and if it isn't indexed against the sling swivel it's no big deal, just be repeatable... In fact, for heavy recoiling rifles (e.g., safaris) you don't put your support hand up to the swivel, or the recoil will sting. This is why really heavy rifles have the sling tied to the barrel itself, well ahead of the forestock.

Another option for the 10/22 is to replace the stock nigh-useless plastic-these-days barrel band with a more useful, aftermarket piece. I think there's one available that integrates the forward stud with the barrel band. But you don't have to. What you've got will be just fine.

[kkp]

Yup, all done!

Tutorial: Install swivel screws in Ruger 10/22 stock:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=810061



Now I just have to hope that everything that worked well on the synthetic stock works just as well on the wood stock for rifle #2...

[dpop67]

OP Thanks for all the info. This is a very informative string. My brother and our families have been talking about doing Appleseed for some time. We have several variations of 10/22. From a basic model with iron sites to a custom built Kidd Inovation. We will look for upcoming events in the Sac Valley area.

[Rock6.3]

Originally Posted by dpop67

OP Thanks for all the info. This is a very informative string. My brother and our families have been talking about doing Appleseed for some time. We have several variations of 10/22. From a basic model with iron sites to a custom built Kidd Inovation. We will look for upcoming events in the Sac Valley area.

Sacramento Appleseeds are held monthly on the 3rd weekend of each month.

Sep 21-22 http://www.eventbrite.com/event/5084798770
Oct 19-20 http://www.eventbrite.com/event/5084814818

[kkp]

The upgrades continue. I installed a ProMag polymer recoil buffer pin, Speed Beez stainless extended magazine release, and the Tech Sights front sight.

This weekend I hope to repeat the swivel stud install on my other 10/22 (the wood stock carbine), along with the Tech Sights front sight. (rear rail and railed Tech Sight is already installed). I already installed a Volquartsen extended mag release and the ProMag recoil buffer pin.

This morning, I sent the trigger groups off to Brimstone for basic trigger jobs. These are gonna be sweet little rifles!

[Lead Waster]

Originally Posted by Trgt

Strongly suggest you use a scope rather than iron sights at Appleseed especially if you are casual/sport shooter. Much more for fun overall use, and removes one area of potential frustration, so you can work on the other excellent material they give you around natural point of aim and sling use for stability.

A lot of the older folks (my age :-) and older w/o perfect vision seemed to struggle with iron sights basics (focus on front sight, align rear sight, then aim) especially against the small targets.

Cut out a one inch square from a colored post it note. Pace off 25 yards, hold up a pencil tip at arms length and aim center square while focusing on tip of pencil, if you want to roughly simulate iron sights shooting for rifleman.

Its cool Appleseed doesn't want you to buy a bunch of stuff, but a basic scope (just leave it at 3x or 4x) makes it MUCH easier to put their material to use and to make rifleman, IMO.

I didn't have problems with sight alignment, and in fact shot tight groups with techsights on my Marlin 795, but after Saturday, I rushed off to Big5 and bought a $40 scope because I could barely see the targets (bad eyes). But I'd never used a scope before and it was 9 FEET off target so I wasted a few AQT rounds getting it dialed in, then by the end of the day, the zero had drifted badly. So I went again, but this time tightened everything and sighted in the scope and shot a rifleman score.

The problem with the Marlin 795 is the magazine changes, it works best with BOTH hands, due to the silly release mechanism. My Marlin also had some issues with jamming, so I had to keep an extra 10 rounds magazine around so when it jammed with a 2 round magazine, I could stick in the 10 rounder, take the missing shot, then reload with the 8 round magazine.

There is nothing worse than an unreliable gun on a timed event. The Marlin, with scope is an absolute tack driver, but it didn't enjoy the Fed Bulk or Fed Automatch I fed it. And I had cleaned the action the night before.

[Lead Waster]

Oh yeah, for a Ruger 10/22, get the bolt release thingy so that you can release the bolt by pulling the bolt handle back instead of the little metal tab under the mag. My friend shot his 10/22 TD and it gave him fits.

[kkp]

Originally Posted by Lead Waster

Oh yeah, for a Ruger 10/22, get the bolt release thingy so that you can release the bolt by pulling the bolt handle back instead of the little metal tab under the mag. My friend shot his 10/22 TD and it gave him fits.

Don't want it or need it. Instead, I learned how to properly use the stock release. It's really not that tough...

[Eljay]

The bolt release thingie (spend the $10 or use a dremel) is well worth it if you're already trained up on other weapons and you're planning on operating a 10/22 under time pressure. The last thing you need to be doing on the sitting and prone rapid fire stages is to be screwing around with a stupidly designed bolt release.

[kkp]

Originally Posted by Eljay

The bolt release thingie (spend the $10 or use a dremel) is well worth it if you're already trained up on other weapons and you're planning on operating a 10/22 under time pressure. The last thing you need to be doing on the sitting and prone rapid fire stages is to be screwing around with a stupidly designed bolt release.

Or, you could learn how to work your own damn rifle. It works. Quickly. If you take the time to practice with it. And I don't mean a lot of time. It works as designed: Simply and reliably. Once you actually learn how it is supposed to work, that is.

But if you want to take a shortcut and modify your gear so it works better in one particular way (at the expense of being a little more dangerous in other ways, in that one little bump can send the bolt slamming home accidentally), then by all means go for it. You'll be in good company.

[as_rocketman]

Hey guys, peace!

There is no safety issue with a modified 10/22 bolt release, because you're following the Four Safety Rules, right? ... ahem ... YES, YOU ARE.

Pardon me. So anyway, the Four Safety Rules don't care whether the bolt is open or closed. Your muzzle is in a safe direction, your rifle is unloaded until the Line Boss says so, your finger is off the trigger until your sights are on the target, and you're making sure those around you are also following the Four Safety Rules. If the bolt should happen to drop before you're quite ready, no big deal.

As far as the stock 10/22 bolt release goes, if I had a 10/22 I'd probably leave it as is. I don't have trouble manipulating it. (But then I play piano and type 80 WPM.)

If you want to modify your bolt release, go right ahead. It won't be a problem on the line. But you don't need one to make a Rifleman score. Up to you.

[safety-1st]

I plan on going this september to an Appleseed, probably azusa. Would it be ok to bring my Beretta ARX160? its a .22lr with iron sights, i also have a vortex sparc red dot sight, but I will probably leave it at home to work with the iron sights first.

[PurplePeople]

Originally Posted by safety-1st

I plan on going this september to an Appleseed, probably azusa. Would it be ok to bring my Beretta ARX160? its a .22lr with iron sights, i also have a vortex sparc red dot sight, but I will probably leave it at home to work with the iron sights first.

Looks great! You'll want to get a 1.25" sling mount, probably a quick disconnect, on that lower rail before the shoot, and pick up an 'M1' GI style sling in cotton or nylon.

Irons should work just fine. For red dot and other electronic sights, you want to turn it down as far as you can and still see it - the smaller targets are 4 MOA and can be obscured by a large dot or one that 'blooms' due to over brightness.

[rconnerley]

safety-1st,

Sounds like the Beretta would work fine. I have seen people succeed with both irons and red dots, either can be work well if they can be repeatably adjusted for elevation and windage. Rig a GI sling and bring at least two mags for maximum fun.

[as_rocketman]

Originally Posted by rconnerley

Sounds like the Beretta would work fine. I have seen people succeed with both irons and red dots, either can be work well if they can be repeatably adjusted for elevation and windage. Rig a GI sling and bring at least two mags for maximum fun.

This.

When I had a red dot (Holosight) I had it tuned up to about medium brightness. You will have a choice of hold -- either "center target" or "6 o'clock" (also known as "pumpkin on a post"), which we will explain in detail at the class. The vast majority of red dot shooters use center hold, however I found I was more accurate with mine using a 6 o'clock hold.

Or bring the irons, both are fine. Plan to pick one and stick with it -- going back and forth between equipment choices takes up time and disrupts your rhythm, so try not to.

[Garandimal]

Originally Posted by Trgt

Strongly suggest you use a scope rather than iron sights at Appleseed especially if you are casual/sport shooter. Much more for fun overall use, and removes one area of potential frustration, so you can work on the other excellent material they give you around natural point of aim and sling use for stability.

A lot of the older folks (my age :-) and older w/o perfect vision seemed to struggle with iron sights basics (focus on front sight, align rear sight, then aim) especially against the small targets.

Cut out a one inch square from a colored post it note. Pace off 25 yards, hold up a pencil tip at arms length and aim center square while focusing on tip of pencil, if you want to roughly simulate iron sights shooting for rifleman.

Its cool Appleseed doesn't want you to buy a bunch of stuff, but a basic scope (just leave it at 3x or 4x) makes it MUCH easier to put their material to use and to make rifleman, IMO.

Actually, Aperture Sights work like a 1X infinite focal plane "pin hole" lens. They are parallax-free for most of the center of the aperture. The aperture sight, in effect, looks at the front sight. As long as the front sight is in the center portion of the aperture, it is point of aim. The other property is that the front sight and target will essentially focus together, instead of the front sight crisp and the target blurry.




GR

[DrewTheBrave]

I plan on attending my first Appleseed at Burro Canyon this summer, and I have a Savage Mk2 with 3-9x scope which I plan on bringing for the class. I understand that the timed sections can be difficult with a bolt action. Since I'm bringing a relatively lightweight AR15 with a 3-9x as my backup rifle, would it make sense to switch to my AR if I struggle with the timed sections? Or should I tough it out and stick with the bolt?

[as_rocketman]

Don't worry about the clock. Timed sessions are there to build muscle memory, not to force anyone into particular equipment choices.

Bring the AR anyway in case the Savage goes down, but you'll be fine. We average one or two bolts on the line at every class. Occasionally I see a single shot!

[hardlyworking]

If you are worried about the bolt action, and loss of time running the bolt you can do some compensatory exercises before class.

They are simple but practice with them will more than make up for whatever time you'll loose working your action.

With your unloaded rifle (held by your support hand) and 2 empty magazines (on the ground)
A) Smoothly transition from standing to prone, insert a magazine with your trigger hand, close the bolt. Again with only your trigger hand, change magazines, work the bolt. Put both magazine back on the ground, stand up, and repeat.

B) Do the same exercise but with a sitting position rather than prone.

If you do this 5 time each, every night for a month before class I can promise two things: The time crunch won't be a problem, and you will be way less sore/tired than 90% of the class by the end.

I know Rocketman has made the Rifleman with a bolt action and I have as well, we are speaking from experience. It really is not a hindrance. Proceed with confidence!

[as_rocketman]

^^ Full disclosure, I haven't yet made a bolt-action Rifleman score on an RFAQT -- that's 40 rounds on 10 targets in 4 minutes, all three positions, no breaks. But I have no trouble at all doing a normal AQT with a bolt gun, whether rimfire or battle rifle.

The hardest thing about a bolt gun is the rhythm shot to shot. There's more moving parts and more that has to go right back into place to preserve your NPOA. When I started trying to really learn the way of the bolt, I was surprised at how much variation there was in my trigger hand placement shot to shot...

... but on target, it's the difference between 3 MOA and 1 MOA. Not going to matter on an AQT. The other fundamentals are still the same, and more important.

[DrewTheBrave]

Thanks for the tips! Time to practice