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Concealed Carry Discussion General discussion regarding CCW/LTC in California

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  #1  
Old 11-10-2019, 5:29 PM
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Default brandishing with a ccw

So I was just wondering if you pulled your weapon or brandishing and did not fire, would that be illegal? for instance, I can't see someone getting in trouble for pulling a weapon on someone who was at distance from you who was coming at you with a knife. You pull your weapon and he drops the knife.
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Old 11-10-2019, 5:44 PM
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There is a big difference between pulling your weapon on a perceived threat and brandishing. What you described is the former.

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Old 11-10-2019, 5:52 PM
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So pulling your weapon on any perceived threat without firing is ok? Thats what Im trying to find out. Brandishing may be the wrong term to use, your correct.
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Old 11-10-2019, 5:55 PM
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One can hope presenting the weapon ends the threat, but you don't do that until you are ready to kill someone to safe your life or that of a loved one. When you look at it in that perspective you've reached a point where a brandishing charge is the least of your worries.

Showing your handgun as an escalation in a verbal confrontation would be an example of brandishing, and a bad idea all the way around.
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Old 11-10-2019, 5:58 PM
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Originally Posted by kingfamous View Post
So I was just wondering if you pulled your weapon or brandishing and did not fire, would that be illegal? for instance, I can't see someone getting in trouble for pulling a weapon on someone who was at distance from you who was coming at you with a knife. You pull your weapon and he drops the knife.
Did they not discuss this in your CCW class?
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Old 11-10-2019, 6:00 PM
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Did they not discuss this in your CCW class?
That crossed my mind as well, we went over it fairly extensively.
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Old 11-10-2019, 6:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kingfamous View Post
So I was just wondering if you pulled your weapon or brandishing and did not fire, would that be illegal? for instance, I can't see someone getting in trouble for pulling a weapon on someone who was at distance from you who was coming at you with a knife. You pull your weapon and he drops the knife.
Remembering that you need to inform your IA about the incident, under what circumstances are you legal to draw? You don't have to fire, but you need to be able to explain why you thought you could have fired to stop that threat.
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Old 11-10-2019, 6:36 PM
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- this is not the movies where guns are used as persuaders and for dramatic effect.

- if your gun comes out it means you need to stop a lethal threat to self or others

- in your hypothetical example, if a bad guy is coming at you with a knife, fast enough for you to draw in self defense, it means it's do or die time.. life of death

- if there is enough time/distance to play rock paper scissors cowboy standoff then your life is not in danger
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Old 11-10-2019, 6:47 PM
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21 foot rule?
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Old 11-10-2019, 7:44 PM
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21 foot rule?


Yes the Tueller Drill.

Bottom line however in response to the OPs question, is you need to be at the point that you legally can use deadly force if your going to draw your weapon.
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Old 11-10-2019, 7:50 PM
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Yes, they went over that. I remember them saying if you pull your weapon, fire it. I was wondering if you can pull your weapon to stop the threat at distance. so you cant. you just have to try to de escalate the situation verbally until it is life threatening
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Old 11-10-2019, 9:15 PM
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Yes, there are times when drawing and not firing your weapon are justified. Don't believe you have to shoot because you presented your CCW weapon. You are not a Ninja worrier of sorts. These situations are very complex and may happen in a very short period of time - that is what makes a civilian combat fight so complex. And remember, many others, of which were not there, will attempt to place all the blame on YOU.
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Old 11-10-2019, 9:30 PM
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Presenting as a form of intimidation is very different than as a form of second to last line of stopping the threat. It may be a fine line, but there is a line. That line may also mean life and death as well, though. If you both live, that line may be left in the perception of your IA or a jury.
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Old 11-10-2019, 9:36 PM
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Default brandishing with a ccw

Quote:
Originally Posted by starlight View Post
- this is not the movies where guns are used as persuaders and for dramatic effect.



- if your gun comes out it means you need to stop a lethal threat to self or others



- in your hypothetical example, if a bad guy is coming at you with a knife, fast enough for you to draw in self defense, it means it's do or die time.. life of death



- if there is enough time/distance to play rock paper scissors cowboy standoff then your life is not in danger


Wrong. There are MANY scenarios outside the scope of what you just stated that justify the drawing of your handgun without shooting.

And just because you draw and don’t need to immediately fire certainly does not mean that your life is / was not in danger.
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Old 11-11-2019, 9:17 AM
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....and if you pull your weapon......and do not use it......notify your issuing agency.
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Old 11-11-2019, 9:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kingfamous View Post
Yes, they went over that. I remember them saying if you pull your weapon, fire it. I was wondering if you can pull your weapon to stop the threat at distance. so you cant. you just have to try to de escalate the situation verbally until it is life threatening
While I haven't taken a CCW class, I think the point is if you aren't in danger don't get into danger. Sometimes talking makes things worse.

If you are "de escalting until it is life threatening" then you aren't de escalating.
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Old 11-11-2019, 9:48 AM
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If I ever had to draw my weapon in self defense and that act ended the threat I would want to do everything in my power to be the first one contacting Law Enforcement and getting my view of events on the record.
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Old 11-11-2019, 9:59 AM
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Originally Posted by creampuff View Post
While I haven't taken a CCW class, I think the point is if you aren't in danger don't get into danger. Sometimes talking makes things worse.

If you are "de escalting until it is life threatening" then you aren't de escalating.
Creampuff,

In any engagement between two or more persons, "De-escalation" requires the joint effort of the parties. It is impossible for one party alone to "De-escalate." That's an important point to make.

The poster that you responded to didn't claim that he would be "De-escalating" by his actions. The claim was that the he would "try" to de-escalate." There's a big difference between an action and the attempt to take the action. One party, acting alone, can make the effort. The efforts of both parties are needed for the effort to succeed.

A commander in my former agency, and an often quoted tactical expert, was fond of observing "a credible threat of lethal force is a non-lethal alternative."

You legal standing to employ deadly force is determined by the circumstances immediately before you pull the trigger, not at the point where you draw the weapon. That fact alone (and I can think of a lot of others) makes it very unwise to hold the position that one should fire if the weapon is drawn.

I can't tell you how many SWAT callouts (or cell extractions) have ended when the suspect decided to surrender just as the deputies were about to execute on their engagement plan. The commander was right, there's something about the immediacy of an unpleasant outcome that forces some to surrender.
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Old 11-11-2019, 10:07 AM
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Old 11-11-2019, 2:29 PM
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Old 11-11-2019, 2:29 PM
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The fact alone that you did not have to shoot doesn't make it brandishing. Given the correct circumstances to deploy a firearm and you end up not shooting means you did your job in two ways...you convinced the bg to back down and you did not shoot someone who changed their mind, to me that shows good self control.
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Old 11-11-2019, 2:52 PM
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Pulling a weapon is not de-escalation. It means you have to defend someone's life.

Cops can pull weapons to de-escalate.

CCW should not.

As someone mentioned, it's a fine line that is better not to dance on...

Too many movies have idiots brandishing for power/persuasion.

Real life doesn't work that way...

Example:

- Robber pulls knife on gas station clerk.
- clerk pulls gun on robber..

- robber drops knife
- clerk still has unarmed robber at gunpoint

- robber then pulls a gun on clerk killing him in "self defense"

- yes its happened.. ie the brandisher getting shot by not de-brandishing quick enough

Dont brandish
Ccw is not for de-escilation
It is for life or death
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Old 11-11-2019, 3:33 PM
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The below is a cut and paste from California Penal Code section 417. Do a bit of on line research. Lot's of bad information and nonsense going around.

417.
(a) (1) Every person who, except in self-defense, in the presence of any other person, draws or exhibits any deadly weapon whatsoever, other than a firearm, in a rude, angry, or threatening manner, or who in any manner, unlawfully uses a deadly weapon other than a firearm in any fight or quarrel is guilty of a misdemeanor, punishable by imprisonment in a county jail for not less than 30 days.

(2) Every person who, except in self-defense, in the presence of any other person, draws or exhibits any firearm, whether loaded or unloaded, in a rude, angry, or threatening manner, or who in any manner, unlawfully uses a firearm in any fight or quarrel is punishable as follows:

Last edited by 003; 11-11-2019 at 3:37 PM..
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Old 11-11-2019, 6:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kingfamous View Post
So I was just wondering if you pulled your weapon or brandishing and did not fire, would that be illegal? for instance, I can't see someone getting in trouble for pulling a weapon on someone who was at distance from you who was coming at you with a knife. You pull your weapon and he drops the knife.
1. Ask your IA.
2. If at distance, take de-escalation measures such as backing out.
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Old 11-11-2019, 6:16 PM
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Originally Posted by kingfamous View Post
So I was just wondering if you pulled your weapon or brandishing and did not fire, would that be illegal? for instance, I can't see someone getting in trouble for pulling a weapon on someone who was at distance from you who was coming at you with a knife. You pull your weapon and he drops the knife.
Don't brandish if you are being threatened with a knife!

But OK to wow them into a trance with your dance moves and take a quick shot when they're not expecting it..

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Old 11-11-2019, 7:53 PM
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From a legal standpoint, there has to be an "Overt threat or act of violence".


A schizophrenic slashing at you with a knife is an "Overt act of violence" and warrants defensive action.

A schizophrenic running at you from across the street with a knife is an "Overt threat of violence" and warrants defensive action.

A schizophrenic screaming at you from across the the street with an knife does not warrant defensive action.



Don't be like Indiana Jones

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Old 11-11-2019, 9:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Grey_Man View Post
From a legal standpoint, there has to be an "Overt threat or act of violence".


A schizophrenic slashing at you with a knife is an "Overt act of violence" and warrants defensive action.

A schizophrenic running at you from across the street with a knife is an "Overt threat of violence" and warrants defensive action.

A schizophrenic screaming at you from across the the street with an knife does not warrant defensive action.



Don't be like Indiana Jones



- very good points
- to reiterare
- for 99.9% of people, your CCW should rot and collect dust in your pocket/holster until you are too old to give a darn and just give it away

- sounds boring
- but that is truly the statistical reality

- don't overthink it
- most CCWs will rot in the pocket and never EVER be used

- IF you need to use it, it means you or someone else is about to die
- despite growing up in a dangerous city with 400 murders PER YEAR I have NEVER EVER been in a situation

- for most of us CCW will simply be a hobby -- an excuse to practice at the range and have a little fun trying to get better and getting out the house for a while

- as someone said, they are like fire extinquishers... they will most likley rot away without ever being used... but handy to have when needed

Last edited by starlight; 11-11-2019 at 9:29 PM..
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Old 11-12-2019, 2:21 AM
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I've done it twice without firing. No problems with the IA. Just make sure you tell them about it according to their policy and timeframe.
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Old 11-12-2019, 3:22 AM
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what were the two situations if you dont mind sharing?
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Old 11-12-2019, 10:43 AM
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what were the two situations if you dont mind sharing?
Here's the first time: https://youtu.be/fEu99CZFne8

The second time I drew has two videos. In the first video, you'll hear shots fired and see two muzzle flashes over the hood of the white Honda Accord on the right side of the screen.

First video: https://youtu.be/QfgzAJDuNdM

Second video: https://youtu.be/fkkP0MLVBTA
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Old 11-12-2019, 11:35 AM
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What crazy @as neighborhood is that? Vietnam?
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Old 11-12-2019, 1:28 PM
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safe to say do not draw unless you feel your life (or another) is it immediate danger.
you would use your firearm in case of immediate great bodily injury or death. the hope should be once that situation presents itself you are able to draw your firearm and stop an attack before having to fire. that of course is much easier said than done but it will very much keep you out of the legal drama of a brandishing charge + losing your permit.
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Old 11-12-2019, 1:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grey_Man View Post
From a legal standpoint, there has to be an "Overt threat or act of violence".


A schizophrenic slashing at you with a knife is an "Overt act of violence" and warrants defensive action.

A schizophrenic running at you from across the street with a knife is an "Overt threat of violence" and warrants defensive action.

A schizophrenic screaming at you from across the the street with an knife does not warrant defensive action.
I had something very similar happen to me earlier this month in Vegas. I have a NV CCW as well as CA CCW. I was carrying my P239/9 when a guy pulls a knife on me at the mall. Without lifting my shirt, I put my hand on my gun and said "you don't want to do that". He thought I was a cop, and bailed. I never exposed by gun, but I feel I would have been justified in doing so.

Here's my post from another gun forum:

Quote:
Originally Posted by bblr
Went to Las Vegas last week for a softball tournament for my daughter. After the games Saturday, the team met at the Fashion Show mall on the strip for some team bonding--aka some fun at an escape room inside the mall.

Decided to move my car since I was parked by Macy's Men, and the mall would close--I didn't want to have to walk outside the mall to get to my car. There's a parking garage right next to the escape room. I had to pee pretty badly, so I used the public restroom right next to Macy's Men, instead of finding a bathroom in Macy's. My wife comments to me if I thought it was safe. I had to pee so badly, I just needed to get to the closest restroom.

So I go inside the restroom, and do my thing, and stand outside waiting for my wife to come out. I have my back to the wall (men's restroom is to my right, women's restroom is in front of me, entrance from the mall is to my left). So this little black guy walks by eating chips. You can tell he's tweaking on something. We make eye contact, and he just mumbles something. I just ignore him. He goes in the men's restroom.

A few minutes goes by and he comes out, and looks at me and says something. He walks in front of me toward the mall, then turns around and asks if I have the time. I say I don't know the time. He asks again. I say "dude, I don't have the time." My thinking is I don't want to reach for my phone, and take my eyes off of him. He says "you're a grumpy MF'er". I tell him "get the F- away from me". He now says "you're in a bad f-ing mood". I tell him to keep walking. So he turns toward the mall, takes a few steps, then turns around again. At this point he's standing toward my left (about my 10 o'clock), about 10 feet away from me. Now, he reaches in his right pant pocket, pulls out a folding knife, and flips it open, and looks right at me with a smile. Without pulling up my shirt, I put my right hand on my gun (3:30 IWB ), and say "you don't want to do that".

He says "awe, f-you, you're a cop, f-off". He flips me off, and walks away.
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Old 11-14-2019, 7:36 PM
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Oakdale CA. Senior gentleman is walking his dog. Loose pitbull latches onto his dog. He pulls them apart and the pit latches onto his leg. He pulls his CCW, shoots the dog and the much younger pit owner runs up yelling and screaming. He aims the gun at the irate guy and waits for the police to show up. Gentleman is arrested for brandishing. That is where my knowledge of the incident ends. I'm not sure if he was charged by the DA but he was arrested by Oakdale PD. This was maybe three years ago?

If there is a way to get out of a situation without pulling your gun by all means take it. In the climate we live in even if you shoot someone who is actively stabbing you, you ARE going to be sued by their dirtbag family members and possibly loose everything you have worked so hard for. Odds are even after you win you won't be able to counter sue because they will have nothing to take to help cover the fees from a frivolous lawsuit.
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Old 11-14-2019, 11:30 PM
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If there is a way to get out of a situation without pulling your gun by all means take it. In the climate we live in even if you shoot someone who is actively stabbing you, you ARE going to be sued by their dirtbag family members and possibly loose everything you have worked so hard for. Odds are even after you win you won't be able to counter sue because they will have nothing to take to help cover the fees from a frivolous lawsuit.

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Old 12-03-2019, 3:25 PM
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So I was just wondering if you pulled your weapon or brandishing and did not fire, would that be illegal? for instance, I can't see someone getting in trouble for pulling a weapon on someone who was at distance from you who was coming at you with a knife. You pull your weapon and he drops the knife.
If you are lucky enough to have an imminent deadly threat coming with time to draw before you actually needed to fire, there is nothing wrong with drawing and having your firearm at the ready position (in hand pointed at the ground). Yelling "stop" and "get back" is also advisable as if there are people nearby they could make for valuable witnesses on your behalf.

Also, if you did pay attention in class I recommend getting a different CCW instructor. One who can articulate different levels of threats and what some examples of appropriate action with your firearm would be.
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Old 12-05-2019, 9:53 AM
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Originally Posted by kingfamous View Post
So I was just wondering if you pulled your weapon or brandishing and did not fire, would that be illegal? for instance, I can't see someone getting in trouble for pulling a weapon on someone who was at distance from you who was coming at you with a knife. You pull your weapon and he drops the knife.
Perhaps you should be asking if you would be facing charges if you didn't pull but hold fire under the particular circumstances. See https://www.shouselaw.com/self-defense.html re using the appropriate level of force.

The least force necessary for self defense may be brandishing at distance, while it is reasonable to pull and shoot if the same threat is nearer.
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Were I practicing, an attorney client relationship could only be created in a writing by both the client and myself. Not by a post, private message, or email.
I never practiced criminal nor firearms law.Do not rely on my post, but consult your own attorney.

Last edited by Chewy65; 12-05-2019 at 9:56 AM..
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Old 12-05-2019, 11:33 AM
igs igs is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboChrisB View Post
“Every bullet comes with a lawyer attached”
Unless you are Salvador Sanchez.

https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/....php?t=1561168
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If a frame or receiver can only be made into a long gun (rifle or shotgun), it is still a frame or receiver not a handgun or long gun.
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