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Ammo and Reloading Factory Ammunition, Reloading, Components, Load Data and more. |
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Thanks, JMP |
#82
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JMP
Calipers wear out if used a lot and most job shops toss them annualy. They are good to 0.001 with repeatability at a given temperature. As most calipers are large and metal your hand warming them versus a glove affects the final reading as does temperature. The pair I have were acquired when the company I was working for went out of business. They were used in a temperature controlled measuring room by a lady that did nothing but measure products all day. A going away present if you will. For our purposes you can reload world record setting ammunition with the $15 calipers without worry. Reductio ad adsurdum has taken over this thread but in looking over a 18 year old catalog the longer than needed calipers for our purposes were $4700 and when fully outfitted were $7400. We don't need laboratory calipers for reloading just something that works and is accurate. Used calipers means the rack is worn out.
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Lynn Dragoman, Jr. Southwest Regional Director Unlimited Range Shooters Association (URSA) www.unlimitedrange.org Not a commercial business. URSA - Competition starts at 2000 yards! |
#83
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Your butt hurt knows no bounds. If you can't appreciate a Ford compared to a Yugo, drive it with pride. A simple suggestion was made to buy ~$100 calipers or ~$50 used over some ~$20 HF calipers. No one ever suggested the $20 POS's wouldn't do the job. Go back, read through and you'll find your ire is misplaced. Only your bruised ego made it about $300 and $2K calipers (that's what's mythical). Furthermore, all you're adding is features. I'm going to go spread my Grey Poupon with the Redding bushing dies I bought for range fodder cuz the regular ones are incapable of making suitable ammo. All this time using RCBS, Lee collet dies and basic Redding A&B sets, I never knew. Why does Redding even make A&B sets? Don't they want folks to make quality ammo when using their products?
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Palestine is a fake country No Mas Hamas #Blackolivesmatter Last edited by JagerDog; 08-15-2015 at 9:08 AM.. |
#84
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WTF am I going to do with all of the inferior ammo I reloaded with those Dillon dies last week? I guess I'll need to dispose of it at the range tomorrow so I don't have it laying around reminding me how that jar of Grey Poupon is waiting for me to measure some cases with my Mitutoyos.... Can you do me a favor Jager? Please don't tell my rifles I didn't use Redding dies on this ammo, I don't want them to get a complex, ok?
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--------- liber -------- From my cold dead end mill...
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#86
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I'm pretty sure you can use those Dillon dies for dipping in the Grey Poupon. I tried it with my Reddings A's & B's. It was okay but a hint of metallic taste. DON'T DOUBLE DIP THOUGH you heathen. I may just end up using mine as sliding fishing weights like we used to do with old spark plugs. Do you think the fish will turn up their nose at them? I won't tell, if you don't tell. But now that it's on the interwebz....
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Palestine is a fake country No Mas Hamas #Blackolivesmatter |
#87
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What I find hillarious is the same people pushing expensive measuring tools and gauges also advocate loading precision ammo on progressive equipment. It's like they're trying to compensate for loose tolerances with extra special calipers.
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#88
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JagerDog
No butt hurt here at all. I was the one saying a reloader doesn't need expensive calipers all along and a few here suggested you did. It seems the butt hurt came when I posted Jerry Stiller post from a benchrest website and egg got on some faces. You buy dies according to how well you shoot just like everything else. If your just making 1 moa ammo for dad's 30-06 you get some Lee dies and some Hornady bullets and your all set. If your into a more accurate form of shooting you get Harrell's Neil Jones or Warner dies and you shoot custom bullets like BIB Vapor Trail Eubers Barts. For the original poster Any time you come to an internet forum you run across all kinds of shooters with varied degrees of skill. I don't know any of the posters in this post so I would stick with the recommendation from Jerry Stiller. Worst case scenario your out $10.
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Lynn Dragoman, Jr. Southwest Regional Director Unlimited Range Shooters Association (URSA) www.unlimitedrange.org Not a commercial business. URSA - Competition starts at 2000 yards! |
#90
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I use this caliper for much of my measuring, but also have some analog B&S, Mitutoyo, Helios, etc... (337-1114, web price of $92.95) http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INPDFF?P...PARTPG=INLMK32 If you want, you can get 30% off, twice a year from Enco if you want to wait for their sale. I will NOTE how it's fine for you and LynnJr. to poke fun at this side of the camp, but the moment anyone pokes fun at your side, you get all serious like a case of constipation. Remember, your recommendation of $232 dies in another thread are a similar example, except I showed for the calipers where the margin is much less, especially if going used. Let's keep in mind this is all in fun...no harm intended on my part...but let's be realistic about the situation. LynnJr, You need to keep dropping Jerry Stiller's name in this thread? Are you trying to compensate for your penis? As Jager stated before, it's way easier to list machinists that prefer a quality pair of calipers, yet you don't see anyone doing that. I don't need to buy a set of calipers because Jerry Stiller uses them, I can determine if the tool is acceptable or not on my own, thank you.
__________________
--------- liber -------- From my cold dead end mill...
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#91
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What ammo measurements with calipers do you need to make in order to produce accurate ammunition? That's the main thing I am curious. Then, on your caliper link, will I lose anything by getting the waterproof Mitutoyo calipers? For my application, the added protection from rust/corrosion is a big plus. Is there any particular reason that I should get the non-waterproof calipers over the waterproof calipers since they are only $100 more? |
#93
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Liber
I mentioned his name because he is a well known Shooter and manufacturer of actions. I have never heard the name Liber on any match reports or actions. J-Cat Progressive presses dropped charges and nothing done to the cases.
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Lynn Dragoman, Jr. Southwest Regional Director Unlimited Range Shooters Association (URSA) www.unlimitedrange.org Not a commercial business. URSA - Competition starts at 2000 yards! |
#94
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Then why were you recommending a $232 set of dies and $100 bushings to someone that is new to reloading and just spent $399 on their progressive reloading press? Do you see the irony and/or double standard here?
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Yes, actually there is. For most non-machinist types, it is easier to get a reading with digital, and quicker. While analog calipers will always work, short of a bad battery or other electronics, analog calipers are not only more difficult, but you'll find that there are a fair amount of average people that will make errors doing the math with analog calipers. No, I'm not talking about everyone, but there are some and it's easier to ERR with analog as one need to add/subtract from the scale/dial to get the correct measurement. With digital there is no math involved, just hold the jaws secure (not like a 900 lbs. gorilla, but tight enough to get a solid reading), and look at the readout. I certainly don't claim to know everything about reloading, but all I suggest here is to use a little common sense in practical use and purchase of tools.
__________________
--------- liber -------- From my cold dead end mill...
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#95
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#96
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Yes, I have known people to fabricate an entire rifle from scratch, some have even gone to the extent of doing the rifling on the barrel themselves. Others have done black powder type rifles that do not have rifling. Some firearms requires a fair amount of skill to pull off, more than the average reloader will have.
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--------- liber -------- From my cold dead end mill...
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#97
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liber, my question was simply if there were any disadvantages of the waterproof calipers over the non waterproof version. in my situation, as long as the waterproof calipers do not hurt, I would rather have them as sometimes I leave my calipers outside.
as far as fabricating a rifle from scratch, I was not talking about $20 in supplies and a roach clip from Home Depot, rather I was talking about a high precision rifle. I never recommended Harbor Freight rather I simply said that I do not believe one needs high end calipers to reload. I do not believe that one can sufficiently measure the neck of the case with calipers, and it is impossible to measure the thickness of the brass without vernier micrometers. to get the case overall length, you could not measure the base of the bullet to the tip of the bullet or this will provide you an erroneous measurement. for this measurement one must measure from the base to the ogive of the bullet. some people will approximate measurements like brass thickness by measuring the outer diameter of the neck with a loaded bullet. this is a flawed technique as it does not properly address the inconsistencies in the brass from side to side. |
#98
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You lost me again, I'm not recommending a "high end caliper", I'm merely recommending a caliper that will do the job and not be excessive in cost. Please quit trying to twist my words into "high end calipers". It was Lynn who was originally saying they were $300 calipers, and that somehow turned into $2000 calipers...WTF, the next thing it will be a $10,000 piece of tooling to measure the chamber.
__________________
--------- liber -------- From my cold dead end mill...
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#99
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No one has suggested "expensive " calipers except you in an absurd attempt to support your suggestion that one is just as well off with the cheapest. I realize Mr. Stiller is some hero of yours. But I don't see the post you forwarded as some ringing endorsement of HF calipers as a man's only set. I saw it as he picked up a bunch on some fire sale and found them to be functional enough to leave sets convenient to point of use. Did he test Outside, inside, depth and step? Has he gotten tired of replacing short life batteries in 10 sets yet? Are they currently available for $10? Will a new set from HF be as functional as those he evaluated? How can the purchaser determine that if he doesn't have standards? Should he use gauge blocks, or gauge pins numerous locations along the jaw? Should he also have ring gauges to test the inside jaws? I have good and cheap sets of mechanics tools too. My better stuff is mostly USA Craftsman (I'm not a mechanic)...comparable to the $100 calipers. My vehicles and boat each have some cheaper sets for emergency repairs. I have one good Fluke multi-meter and various "consumer grade" DVOM's for when my Fluke isn't handy. I've worked my share of job shops and never worked a place which routinely threw out calipers annually. Maybe that's part of why they went out of business? Standard measuring tools were the responsibility of the machinist anyways, unless it was a gov't job...then you went to the tool crib and checked out what you needed. Inspection lab operated a bit different since all was rather high end and often required regular certs clear down to the granite surface plate. I find it comical that you'll rail against a suggestion of a better set of calipers but not a mandate that every new reloader loading for unknown rifle with unknown expectations drop what they have and go buy a $250+ set of dies to use on a Hornady LnLap. As for coolant proof, I'd suggest that if one's reloading bench provides hazards for which coolant proof calipers are advised, that your calipers aren't your biggest problem to tackle. If you use your calipers in other environments which are likely to produce these hazards and they aren't easily mitigated, then coolant proof calipers might well be advised. By their very nomenclature, machining coolant (often flooded machining centers and wet parts/hands) was the driver behind their development.
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Palestine is a fake country No Mas Hamas #Blackolivesmatter Last edited by JagerDog; 08-15-2015 at 2:23 PM.. |
#100
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JagerDog
I think you merged posters or got confused about halfway through your post. I have never mentioned a locnload anything or water. As this horse has now been beaten to death I will offer you and Liber both a challenge. I say my reloads will outshoot your reloads. Now for the good part. You and Liber both come shooting and you each shoot your own guns against one of my guns but without me doing the shooting. Liber shoots Lynn's gun against JagerDog and his gun then JagerDog shoots Lynn's gun against Libers gun. I predict my reloads will beat both of yours with you two shooting them. Sound like fun?
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Lynn Dragoman, Jr. Southwest Regional Director Unlimited Range Shooters Association (URSA) www.unlimitedrange.org Not a commercial business. URSA - Competition starts at 2000 yards! |
#101
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What I do need is to know that I honestly feel the tools I have in my shop are not a POS, no matter who uses them, and that I feel comfortable spending the cost of the purchase. I can say with confidence that the Mitutoyo calipers I use *most* of the time will last and endure longer than any HF POS caliper, and that goes for battery life as well. Now, to end this blasphemy, I will also be glad to make another statement that could help your penis problem... EVERYONE, LynnJr is capable of producing better ammo with his crappy POS HF calipers, and LynnJr is every bit as good as Jerry Stiller cause he uses the EXACT same POS HF calipers that send American $$$s to China. I will also concede that LynnJr is a better aim and a better shot than I am...I truly hope that makes your day!
__________________
--------- liber -------- From my cold dead end mill...
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#103
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Liber
Great post. But you missed the point. You shoot my ammo and my gun against any gun JagerDog can muster up using his reloads. I say you will win. Next JagerDog shoots my gun with my reloads against any gun you can muster up and you use your reloads put together with your wonderful sexy hot fantastic *****en smoking hotrod calipers. I say JagerDog beats you. I will use my garbage piece of junk overseas scumbag horrible battery sucking job robbing calipers to load all the ammo both of you shoot. The best part is you can pick the distance from 100 yards to 2500 yards or anywhere in between.
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Lynn Dragoman, Jr. Southwest Regional Director Unlimited Range Shooters Association (URSA) www.unlimitedrange.org Not a commercial business. URSA - Competition starts at 2000 yards! |
#104
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JMP
On a serious note you use calipers for sorting your bullets base to ogive ogive to heel bearing surface and you use them to determine your seating depth and shoulder bump. I also use them to check case length uniformity and to measure my groups.
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Lynn Dragoman, Jr. Southwest Regional Director Unlimited Range Shooters Association (URSA) www.unlimitedrange.org Not a commercial business. URSA - Competition starts at 2000 yards! Last edited by LynnJr; 08-15-2015 at 5:59 PM.. |
#105
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I am with you on not sending money to China. Very little of my gear is made in China. Do you use an iPhone? I do not as they are cheap Chinese POSs. Admitedly, I do purchase a lot of good from Europe. Most of my firearms goods are from Europe, which includes the rifles and the scopes; however, I rely on US machining for the barrels. My dies and presses are also made in the US. Currently, I have one Japanese car that was made in Japan. I have one Japanese car that was made in Ohio, and I have one German car that was made in Germany. Although I do not believe that high end calipers are an essential part of reloading, I will humor you and purchase the waterproof Mitutoyo calipers that you believe to be good, and I will see if it improves my results. However, in exchange, I ask you to spend just a little bit amount of money (about the same) to get yourself a decent die set (Redding Competition is fine) and an ordinary single stage press (Rock Chucker is fine). I will wager that you will see a much greater improvement than I will. While you guys were fixing eachother's penis problems, I was at the range doing some load development. I did have a very promising load as I was trying some higher BC Berger bullets in my 6.5 Creedmoor. This was the result of the 11-15th bullets I used. For load development, I would personally consider that (well sub-1/4 group) to be a very good group. Are you getting like results with your more expensive calipers? |
#106
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Your non-sequitur challenge is just that. How about I make up a simple drawing and we both have to make said qty of parts using mill and lathe. You use HF calipers and I'll use my Absolute. Score will be a function of time and accuracy. Sound stupid? No more stupid than your challenge.
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Palestine is a fake country No Mas Hamas #Blackolivesmatter Last edited by JagerDog; 08-16-2015 at 5:13 PM.. |
#107
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Hear, hear!
What they fail to understand is that there are some folks that don't care to produce ammo that will split a nat's @$$ at 1000 yards...but rest assured I have to tools that I know can measure a nat's @$$ consistently. I'm not saying I don't want accurate ammo, but I get better ammo from my reloads than that I have bought. I get it at a fraction of the cost. I spend about $0.40/round for 308, that's with match grade bullets. I use match cases that I buy for $0.30/ea (once fired), but over a dozen reloads the cost is only about $.03/ea. per case. The most expensive portion is the bullet. I also don't sit there and time my pulse, regulate my breathing, do a hail mary and take 2-3 minutes for each round...I normally shoot them about 1-2 seconds apart. My RO tries to get me to space them to 2 seconds...today he reminded me twice to try and space them out to 2 seconds each if I could, but doesn't hold me to it. I shot about 200 x 308, and 175 x 5.56. That's 375 pieces of brass...picking 'em up is one of the most difficult parts...(I need a brass catcher). It matters not to me that I get 1/4 MOA, what matters to me is that I can hit center mass repeatedly, and that I know I can do at 200 yards and can do it fairly rapidly. The red dot I was using on my 308 today is 4 MOA, that's an 8" dot at 200 yards. Still, all of my shots are in the black rings. That's what matters to me.
__________________
--------- liber -------- From my cold dead end mill...
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#109
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OTOH, expecting an HF $30 caliper to match a $92 Mitutoyo is blasphemy. (which BTW is about 40% of what a set of Redding dies cost)
__________________
--------- liber -------- From my cold dead end mill...
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#110
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JagerDog
I'd like to take you up on your offer if we are building shooting related products and using our own equipment. I don't have a mill just an older LeBlond lathe I use for barrels. Liber With my ammo and gun YOU can shoot 1/4 moa at 100 yards for 5 shots. And as JagerDog is only 90 minutes away he can as well. Here is a 600 yard target with my caliper of choice.
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Lynn Dragoman, Jr. Southwest Regional Director Unlimited Range Shooters Association (URSA) www.unlimitedrange.org Not a commercial business. URSA - Competition starts at 2000 yards! |
#111
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Sorry here is the picture
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Lynn Dragoman, Jr. Southwest Regional Director Unlimited Range Shooters Association (URSA) www.unlimitedrange.org Not a commercial business. URSA - Competition starts at 2000 yards! Last edited by LynnJr; 09-06-2015 at 10:55 AM.. |
#112
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#113
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We all come here for a different reason. I came here to try and learn how to reload and save myself some money. Maybe one day I'll have a rifle and be able to make accurate ammo that I'll be able to get 1/4 MOA, and then again, maybe not. For me it will always be about making it myself, not using someone else's. I've never bought a firearm, I've only built them. When I have a firearm that is capable of 1/4 MOA, I'll have built it myself. I could easily go buy a firearm that would get 1/4 MOA, but I see no fun in that. I'd rather get 20 MOA and have built it myself. Maybe stubborn in that regard, but it is how I am. Reloading for me is about being self sufficient and being able to make my own ammo. In the process I also save myself some money. I would like to say I appreciate the help you've offered me, there is some irony to having a small disagreement on a simple tool like a caliper. But we all have our own values.
__________________
--------- liber -------- From my cold dead end mill...
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#114
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Liber
I made two of my own actions but I don't know if that counts? I had to use a friends mill but they both shoot decent. You seem like the type of guy who will advance quickly into more and more accuracy. There are some key steps in reloading very accurate ammo and many that don't do anything at all. The key is figuring out what actually works and what is myth. If you ever get up to NorCal you can shoot some of my toys and see what you think. Here is BigRed and I made the barrel block and the stock for it. It weighs 94 pounds.
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Lynn Dragoman, Jr. Southwest Regional Director Unlimited Range Shooters Association (URSA) www.unlimitedrange.org Not a commercial business. URSA - Competition starts at 2000 yards! Last edited by LynnJr; 09-06-2015 at 10:55 AM.. |
#116
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That looks dandy! I'd say that's a firearm to be proud of!
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--------- liber -------- From my cold dead end mill...
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#117
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116 posts.
How many actually had anything to do with answering this simple question? Quote:
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#118
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Ya...hopefully we can all shake hands. Odd sometimes how two different well meaning positions can devolve.
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Palestine is a fake country No Mas Hamas #Blackolivesmatter |
#119
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I'd still maintain it's low pressure due to a gun fault or ammo incompatibility. It has nothing to do with bumping shoulders and such. Towel bar may be the best use.
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Palestine is a fake country No Mas Hamas #Blackolivesmatter |
#120
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In Calguns style , about 18 posts near related to the original question out of 119 . Better than most questions here . Surprised it lasted this long , guess it could be measured with a HF set of calipers after all But we do need pictures of the towel rack , or it didn't happen
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Bweise says "I have to say the situation was not at all helped by 22 yr old former Airsoft douches who kept touting here, "But possession is not illegal!" " Fighting on the internet is like being in the special Olympics , everybody wins but your still retarded. Librarian " Calguns is not a 'general discussion board". |
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