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  #81  
Old 08-15-2015, 12:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LynnJr View Post
JMP
I wouldn't recommend you go cheap on calipers.
As has been pointed out they work just as well but you don't want what works unless it costs more.
For $2279 you can use the same ones I have sitting in my kitchen and they have produced ammo that is more accurate than you will find shot by anyone posting here.
Yes you can buy bottom of the line Mitutoyo or someone else's throw backs but buy the best and cry once.
They will also custom build you a pair if needed but those would naturally cost more.
Lynn, thank you for your generous offer. If those are your world record setting calipers, I wouldn't feel right taking them from you. I am not a machinist so I don't know much about calipers. I'd like to get an ordinary pair without batteries. Since folks seem to like the Mitutoyo calipers for what they are, would you recomend a digit or non-digital set? I prefer the non-digital layout as I trust them more without an accidental zero. This will serve as in interim set as soon as I can get a pair from my source in Germany that I trust for precision. The pair you linked are nice, but do they have any higher level pairs that are not electronic?
Thanks,
JMP
  #82  
Old 08-15-2015, 6:42 AM
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JMP
Calipers wear out if used a lot and most job shops toss them annualy. They are good to 0.001 with repeatability at a given temperature. As most calipers are large and metal your hand warming them versus a glove affects the final reading as does temperature.
The pair I have were acquired when the company I was working for went out of business. They were used in a temperature controlled measuring room by a lady that did nothing but measure products all day.
A going away present if you will.
For our purposes you can reload world record setting ammunition with the $15 calipers without worry.
Reductio ad adsurdum has taken over this thread but in looking over a 18 year old catalog the longer than needed calipers for our purposes were $4700 and when fully outfitted were $7400.
We don't need laboratory calipers for reloading just something that works and is accurate.
Used calipers means the rack is worn out.
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  #83  
Old 08-15-2015, 7:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LynnJr View Post
JMP
I wouldn't recommend you go cheap on calipers.
As has been pointed out they work just as well but you don't want what works unless it costs more.
For $2279 you can use the same ones I have sitting in my kitchen and they have produced ammo that is more accurate than you will find shot by anyone posting here.
Yes you can buy bottom of the line Mitutoyo or someone else's throw backs but buy the best and cry once.
They will also custom build you a pair if needed but those would naturally cost more.

JagerDog
Yeah they cost $500 and are only good to 0.001 but that is because they are the cheap calipers.
If you want decent tools you have to spend more money. Cheap tools are after all cheap tools. And yes get the spc cable so when your sorting bullets you have the data on hand and you want the long cable not the short one. Yes the long cable adds $160 to the price but a half dozen posts ago $300 calipers were mythical.
And this is no bee in my bonnet at all I completely agree with you that cheap tools are indeed cheap tools and I can't figure out why some here were recommending the bottom of the Mitutoyo line.

Your butt hurt knows no bounds. If you can't appreciate a Ford compared to a Yugo, drive it with pride.

A simple suggestion was made to buy ~$100 calipers or ~$50 used over some ~$20 HF calipers. No one ever suggested the $20 POS's wouldn't do the job. Go back, read through and you'll find your ire is misplaced. Only your bruised ego made it about $300 and $2K calipers (that's what's mythical). Furthermore, all you're adding is features.

I'm going to go spread my Grey Poupon with the Redding bushing dies I bought for range fodder cuz the regular ones are incapable of making suitable ammo. All this time using RCBS, Lee collet dies and basic Redding A&B sets, I never knew. Why does Redding even make A&B sets? Don't they want folks to make quality ammo when using their products?
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  #84  
Old 08-15-2015, 10:12 AM
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Your butt hurt knows no bounds. If you can't appreciate a Ford compared to a Yugo, drive it with pride.
I think his Yugo has a spring that's sprung in the driver's seat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JagerDog View Post
A simple suggestion was made to buy ~$100 calipers or ~$50 used over some ~$20 HF calipers. No one ever suggested the $20 POS's wouldn't do the job. Go back, read through and you'll find your ire is misplaced. Only your bruised ego made it about $300 and $2K calipers (that's what's mythical). Furthermore, all you're adding is features.
That's exactly right, and then they blew it all out of proportion for their own personal agenda using a crappy set of $30 calipers (which is on sale for $21) that they under inflated to $15 to try and show that Jerry Stiller's butt hurt knows the exact same bounds as their own does.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JagerDog View Post
I'm going to go spread my Grey Poupon with the Redding bushing dies I bought for range fodder cuz the regular ones are incapable of making suitable ammo. All this time using RCBS, Lee collet dies and basic Redding A&B sets, I never knew. Why does Redding even make A&B sets? Don't they want folks to make quality ammo when using their products?
All i can say is that is f#@$'d up...now I'm stuck with an expensive jar of Grey Poupon which I can only use when I measure wtih my Mitutoyos that I got on sale for $80 at Enco? Are you telling me that I won't be able to spread that with my Dillon dies that are not even carbide?

WTF am I going to do with all of the inferior ammo I reloaded with those Dillon dies last week? I guess I'll need to dispose of it at the range tomorrow so I don't have it laying around reminding me how that jar of Grey Poupon is waiting for me to measure some cases with my Mitutoyos....

Can you do me a favor Jager? Please don't tell my rifles I didn't use Redding dies on this ammo, I don't want them to get a complex, ok?
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  #85  
Old 08-15-2015, 10:55 AM
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Liber, can you please send me a link to the set of calipers that you find best for reloading?
  #86  
Old 08-15-2015, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by liber View Post
I think his Yugo has a spring that's sprung in the driver's seat.



That's exactly right, and then they blew it all out of proportion for their own personal agenda using a crappy set of $30 calipers (which is on sale for $21) that they under inflated to $15 to try and show that Jerry Stiller's butt hurt knows the exact same bounds as their own does.



All i can say is that is f#@$'d up...now I'm stuck with an expensive jar of Grey Poupon which I can only use when I measure wtih my Mitutoyos that I got on sale for $80 at Enco? Are you telling me that I won't be able to spread that with my Dillon dies that are not even carbide?

WTF am I going to do with all of the inferior ammo I reloaded with those Dillon dies last week? I guess I'll need to dispose of it at the range tomorrow so I don't have it laying around reminding me how that jar of Grey Poupon is waiting for me to measure some cases with my Mitutoyos....

Can you do me a favor Jager? Please don't tell my rifles I didn't use Redding dies on this ammo, I don't want them to get a complex, ok?
I think it was $10 at last count.

I'm pretty sure you can use those Dillon dies for dipping in the Grey Poupon. I tried it with my Reddings A's & B's. It was okay but a hint of metallic taste. DON'T DOUBLE DIP THOUGH you heathen.

I may just end up using mine as sliding fishing weights like we used to do with old spark plugs. Do you think the fish will turn up their nose at them?

I won't tell, if you don't tell. But now that it's on the interwebz....
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  #87  
Old 08-15-2015, 11:33 AM
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What I find hillarious is the same people pushing expensive measuring tools and gauges also advocate loading precision ammo on progressive equipment. It's like they're trying to compensate for loose tolerances with extra special calipers.
  #88  
Old 08-15-2015, 11:39 AM
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JagerDog
No butt hurt here at all. I was the one saying a reloader doesn't need expensive calipers all along and a few here suggested you did.
It seems the butt hurt came when I posted Jerry Stiller post from a benchrest website and egg got on some faces.
You buy dies according to how well you shoot just like everything else. If your just making 1 moa ammo for dad's 30-06 you get some Lee dies and some Hornady bullets and your all set.
If your into a more accurate form of shooting you get Harrell's Neil Jones or Warner dies and you shoot custom bullets like BIB Vapor Trail Eubers Barts.

For the original poster
Any time you come to an internet forum you run across all kinds of shooters with varied degrees of skill. I don't know any of the posters in this post so I would stick with the recommendation from Jerry Stiller.
Worst case scenario your out $10.
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  #89  
Old 08-15-2015, 11:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LynnJr View Post
Any time you come to an internet forum you run across all kinds of shooters with varied degrees of skill.

and IQ.
  #90  
Old 08-15-2015, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMP View Post
Liber, can you please send me a link to the set of calipers that you find best for reloading?
There are a lot of calipers that would work just fine, and do, and even the HF calipers as mentioned in this thread will as well, NOBODY is disputing that.

I use this caliper for much of my measuring, but also have some analog B&S, Mitutoyo, Helios, etc...

(337-1114, web price of $92.95)

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INPDFF?P...PARTPG=INLMK32

If you want, you can get 30% off, twice a year from Enco if you want to wait for their sale.

I will NOTE how it's fine for you and LynnJr. to poke fun at this side of the camp, but the moment anyone pokes fun at your side, you get all serious like a case of constipation. Remember, your recommendation of $232 dies in another thread are a similar example, except I showed for the calipers where the margin is much less, especially if going used. Let's keep in mind this is all in fun...no harm intended on my part...but let's be realistic about the situation.

LynnJr,

You need to keep dropping Jerry Stiller's name in this thread? Are you trying to compensate for your penis? As Jager stated before, it's way easier to list machinists that prefer a quality pair of calipers, yet you don't see anyone doing that. I don't need to buy a set of calipers because Jerry Stiller uses them, I can determine if the tool is acceptable or not on my own, thank you.
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  #91  
Old 08-15-2015, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by J-cat View Post
What I find hillarious is the same people pushing expensive measuring tools and gauges also advocate loading precision ammo on progressive equipment. It's like they're trying to compensate for loose tolerances with extra special calipers.
Indeed, progressive and precision are an oxymoron.
Quote:
Originally Posted by liber View Post
I use this caliper for much of my measuring, but also have some analog B&S, Mitutoyo, Helios, etc...

(337-1114, web price of $92.95)

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INPDFF?P...PARTPG=INLMK32

If you want, you can get 30% off, twice a year from Enco if you want to wait for their sale.

I will NOTE how it's fine for you and LynnJr. to poke fun at this side of the camp, but the moment anyone pokes fun at your side, you get all serious like a case of constipation. Remember, your recommendation of $232 dies in another thread are a similar example, except I showed for the calipers where the margin is much less, especially if going used. Let's keep in mind this is all in fun...no harm intended on my part...but let's be realistic about the situation.
Liber, if you want accurate ammo, that $232 die set (plus another $100 for bushings is about the best you will do and they are the second best dies you get get next to a die that is formed custom from your chamber). It's a fact that good dies are needed to shoot accurately, just like a good barrel. The ammo, the barrel, and the shooter are the three most important parts of accurate shooting.

What ammo measurements with calipers do you need to make in order to produce accurate ammunition? That's the main thing I am curious.

Then, on your caliper link, will I lose anything by getting the waterproof Mitutoyo calipers? For my application, the added protection from rust/corrosion is a big plus. Is there any particular reason that I should get the non-waterproof calipers over the waterproof calipers since they are only $100 more?
  #92  
Old 08-15-2015, 12:25 PM
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Also, Liber, is there a reason you recommend digital over analog?
  #93  
Old 08-15-2015, 12:36 PM
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Liber
I mentioned his name because he is a well known Shooter and manufacturer of actions.
I have never heard the name Liber on any match reports or actions.

J-Cat
Progressive presses dropped charges and nothing done to the cases.
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  #94  
Old 08-15-2015, 12:41 PM
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Indeed, progressive and precision are an oxymoron.
Then why were you recommending a $232 set of dies and $100 bushings to someone that is new to reloading and just spent $399 on their progressive reloading press? Do you see the irony and/or double standard here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JMP View Post
What ammo measurements with calipers do you need to make in order to produce accurate ammunition? That's the main thing I am curious.
You continue to amaze me, it is not just about measuring the ammo, calipers are used for many things. Have you ever milled a receiver for yourself? This is about common sense, about buying the best tools that one can afford that wouldn't be excessive. If cost is the real factor or need of the specific task, the OP should find someone that could measure it for them for free. That would be the most practical. I've stated this previously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JMP View Post
Then, on your caliper link, will I lose anything by getting the waterproof Mitutoyo calipers? For my application, the added protection from rust/corrosion is a big plus. Is there any particular reason that I should get the non-waterproof calipers over the waterproof calipers since they are only $100 more?
The first rule of thumb...when you find yourself in a hole, QUIT digging.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JMP View Post
Also, Liber, is there a reason you recommend digital over analog?
Yes, actually there is. For most non-machinist types, it is easier to get a reading with digital, and quicker. While analog calipers will always work, short of a bad battery or other electronics, analog calipers are not only more difficult, but you'll find that there are a fair amount of average people that will make errors doing the math with analog calipers. No, I'm not talking about everyone, but there are some and it's easier to ERR with analog as one need to add/subtract from the scale/dial to get the correct measurement.

With digital there is no math involved, just hold the jaws secure (not like a 900 lbs. gorilla, but tight enough to get a solid reading), and look at the readout.

I certainly don't claim to know everything about reloading, but all I suggest here is to use a little common sense in practical use and purchase of tools.
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  #95  
Old 08-15-2015, 12:53 PM
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Then, on your caliper link, will I lose anything by getting the waterproof Mitutoyo calipers? For my application, the added protection from rust/corrosion is a big plus. Is there any particular reason that I should get the non-waterproof calipers over the waterproof calipers since they are only $100 more?
Liber, I asked the above question to which you responded:

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The first rule of thumb...when you find yourself in a hole, QUIT digging.
I do not know what that means. Can you answer my original question about the waterproof calibers. Would I be hurt in any way if I got them?

Quote:
Originally Posted by liber View Post
Then why were you recommending a $232 set of dies and $100 bushings to someone that is new to reloading and just spent $399 on their progressive reloading press? Do you see the irony and/or double standard here?
I use the Redding 3-piece comp set for loading .223 Remington on a progressive machine. The reason for this isn't precision, rather, it makes the reloading process easier, and I have found when you use the gold neck bushing and separate the steps, it allows you to reload without lubrication, and the micrometer seating die comes in handy has most people vary bullets with progressive presses. In short, I do not seat a bullet without the micrometer seating. For precision, the micrometer isn't that important, rather it is the spring loaded sleeve that guides the bullet in straight. For progressives, the micrometer aspect of the die is quite handy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by liber View Post
You continue to amaze me, it is not just about measuring the ammo, calipers are used for many things. Have you ever milled a receiver for yourself? This is about common sense, about buying the best tools that one can afford that wouldn't be excessive. If cost is the real factor or need of the specific task, the OP should find someone that could measure it for them for free. That would be the most practical. I've stated this previously.
No, I do not mill receivers. I hire a professional for my gunsmithing. However, you did not answer this question either. What ammo specific measurements are you making that require high dollar calipers??? I do not personally know anyone that fabricates a rifle from scratch.
  #96  
Old 08-15-2015, 1:25 PM
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I do not know what that means. Can you answer my original question about the waterproof calibers. Would I be hurt in any way if I got them?
I cannot determine the value for your application of paying twice the cost to have waterproof calipers, that you will need to decide for yourself I'm afraid. I was linking to an affordable set of calipers that won't break the bank and will be more durable/reliable than the HF calipers over time. Considering that you were recommending the HF calipers with LynnJr., there is some irony that you are curious about spending $100 for having the waterproof resistance, that much I will admit. I would suggest buying the less expensive model I recommended above, using some oil, and taking care of them after you use them. That will go a long way to preventing rust or other corrosion due to lake of maintenance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JMP View Post
No, I do not mill receivers. I hire a professional for my gunsmithing. However, you did not answer this question either. What ammo specific measurements are you making that require high dollar calipers??? I do not personally know anyone that fabricates a rifle from scratch.
This is pretty odd, as I wasn't recommending a "high dollar caliper", I was merely recommending a pair that wouldn't break the bank and that is of known, accepted quality by machinists, that most people would be proud to have in their tool collection and are not at an excessive price. You keep trying to put words into what I type, to favor your argument, I am beginning to see this as "trolling". But for the sake of an answer the measurements that would be useful with a caliper for reloading, they are: case diameter, neck diameter, wall thickness of the neck will be accurate in most cases. There is also length of case, and overall cartridge length that are very useful to have calipers. Bullet measurements are also of use. Some of those measurements would be more accurate with micrometers, but the 6" caliper is the one single measuring tool that can easily do it all, at the expense of getting slightly less accurate readings for some of them. FWIW, some are much more difficult to get an accurate reading with micrometers. Overall length of case as an example. This would also require more than one micrometers as there are range limitations on micrometers. 0-1" would be needed for the case and neck, 1-2" for the case, and 2-3" for the overall cartridge length...(this is in terms of a 308 or 223).

Yes, I have known people to fabricate an entire rifle from scratch, some have even gone to the extent of doing the rifling on the barrel themselves. Others have done black powder type rifles that do not have rifling. Some firearms requires a fair amount of skill to pull off, more than the average reloader will have.
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  #97  
Old 08-15-2015, 1:45 PM
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liber, my question was simply if there were any disadvantages of the waterproof calipers over the non waterproof version. in my situation, as long as the waterproof calipers do not hurt, I would rather have them as sometimes I leave my calipers outside.

as far as fabricating a rifle from scratch, I was not talking about $20 in supplies and a roach clip from Home Depot, rather I was talking about a high precision rifle.

I never recommended Harbor Freight rather I simply said that I do not believe one needs high end calipers to reload. I do not believe that one can sufficiently measure the neck of the case with calipers, and it is impossible to measure the thickness of the brass without vernier micrometers. to get the case overall length, you could not measure the base of the bullet to the tip of the bullet or this will provide you an erroneous measurement. for this measurement one must measure from the base to the ogive of the bullet. some people will approximate measurements like brass thickness by measuring the outer diameter of the neck with a loaded bullet. this is a flawed technique as it does not properly address the inconsistencies in the brass from side to side.
  #98  
Old 08-15-2015, 1:56 PM
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liber, my question was simply if there were any disadvantages of the waterproof calipers over the non waterproof version. in my situation, as long as the waterproof calipers do not hurt, I would rather have them as sometimes I leave my calipers outside.
Do you find yourself around a lot of water when you're reloading? I'm not sure I understand your question here, you keep asking about calipers specifically in regard to reloading, so I give you the reasons why, but then you try to turn the coin. What is important in your application where water comes into play while you're reloading?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JMP View Post
as far as fabricating a rifle from scratch, I was not talking about $20 in supplies and a roach clip from Home Depot, rather I was talking about a high precision rifle.
Where do you believe high precision rifles come from? People make them from scratch, although most buy the barrel from someone that specializes in them. All high precision rifles are made from a gunsmith somewhere. Those gunsmiths are considered machinists in most cases.

Quote:
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I never recommended Harbor Freight rather I simply said that I do not believe one needs high end calipers to reload.
You lost me again, I'm not recommending a "high end caliper", I'm merely recommending a caliper that will do the job and not be excessive in cost. Please quit trying to twist my words into "high end calipers". It was Lynn who was originally saying they were $300 calipers, and that somehow turned into $2000 calipers...WTF, the next thing it will be a $10,000 piece of tooling to measure the chamber.
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  #99  
Old 08-15-2015, 2:06 PM
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Originally Posted by LynnJr View Post
JagerDog
No butt hurt here at all. I was the one saying a reloader doesn't need expensive calipers all along and a few here suggested you did.
It seems the butt hurt came when I posted Jerry Stiller post from a benchrest website and egg got on some faces.
You buy dies according to how well you shoot just like everything else. If your just making 1 moa ammo for dad's 30-06 you get some Lee dies and some Hornady bullets and your all set.
If your into a more accurate form of shooting you get Harrell's Neil Jones or Warner dies and you shoot custom bullets like BIB Vapor Trail Eubers Barts.

For the original poster
Any time you come to an internet forum you run across all kinds of shooters with varied degrees of skill. I don't know any of the posters in this post so I would stick with the recommendation from Jerry Stiller.
Worst case scenario your out $10.
Your defensiveness and need to create strawmen would suggest otherwise.

No one has suggested "expensive " calipers except you in an absurd attempt to support your suggestion that one is just as well off with the cheapest.

I realize Mr. Stiller is some hero of yours. But I don't see the post you forwarded as some ringing endorsement of HF calipers as a man's only set. I saw it as he picked up a bunch on some fire sale and found them to be functional enough to leave sets convenient to point of use. Did he test Outside, inside, depth and step? Has he gotten tired of replacing short life batteries in 10 sets yet?

Are they currently available for $10? Will a new set from HF be as functional as those he evaluated? How can the purchaser determine that if he doesn't have standards? Should he use gauge blocks, or gauge pins numerous locations along the jaw? Should he also have ring gauges to test the inside jaws?

I have good and cheap sets of mechanics tools too. My better stuff is mostly USA Craftsman (I'm not a mechanic)...comparable to the $100 calipers. My vehicles and boat each have some cheaper sets for emergency repairs. I have one good Fluke multi-meter and various "consumer grade" DVOM's for when my Fluke isn't handy.

I've worked my share of job shops and never worked a place which routinely threw out calipers annually. Maybe that's part of why they went out of business? Standard measuring tools were the responsibility of the machinist anyways, unless it was a gov't job...then you went to the tool crib and checked out what you needed. Inspection lab operated a bit different since all was rather high end and often required regular certs clear down to the granite surface plate.

I find it comical that you'll rail against a suggestion of a better set of calipers but not a mandate that every new reloader loading for unknown rifle with unknown expectations drop what they have and go buy a $250+ set of dies to use on a Hornady LnLap.

As for coolant proof, I'd suggest that if one's reloading bench provides hazards for which coolant proof calipers are advised, that your calipers aren't your biggest problem to tackle. If you use your calipers in other environments which are likely to produce these hazards and they aren't easily mitigated, then coolant proof calipers might well be advised. By their very nomenclature, machining coolant (often flooded machining centers and wet parts/hands) was the driver behind their development.
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  #100  
Old 08-15-2015, 3:04 PM
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JagerDog
I think you merged posters or got confused about halfway through your post.
I have never mentioned a locnload anything or water.

As this horse has now been beaten to death I will offer you and Liber both a challenge.
I say my reloads will outshoot your reloads. Now for the good part. You and Liber both come shooting and you each shoot your own guns against one of my guns but without me doing the shooting.
Liber shoots Lynn's gun against JagerDog and his gun then JagerDog shoots Lynn's gun against Libers gun.
I predict my reloads will beat both of yours with you two shooting them.
Sound like fun?
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  #101  
Old 08-15-2015, 3:24 PM
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JagerDog
I think you merged posters or got confused about halfway through your post.
I have never mentioned a locnload anything or water.

As this horse has now been beaten to death I will offer you and Liber both a challenge.
I say my reloads will outshoot your reloads. Now for the good part. You and Liber both come shooting and you each shoot your own guns against one of my guns but without me doing the shooting.
Liber shoots Lynn's gun against JagerDog and his gun then JagerDog shoots Lynn's gun against Libers gun.
I predict my reloads will beat both of yours with you two shooting them.
Sound like fun?
LOL...the only thing is that I don't need to have the most accurate ammo, and I don't need to beat you in any type of shootout at the OK Coral.

What I do need is to know that I honestly feel the tools I have in my shop are not a POS, no matter who uses them, and that I feel comfortable spending the cost of the purchase.

I can say with confidence that the Mitutoyo calipers I use *most* of the time will last and endure longer than any HF POS caliper, and that goes for battery life as well.

Now, to end this blasphemy, I will also be glad to make another statement that could help your penis problem...

EVERYONE, LynnJr is capable of producing better ammo with his crappy POS HF calipers, and LynnJr is every bit as good as Jerry Stiller cause he uses the EXACT same POS HF calipers that send American $$$s to China.

I will also concede that LynnJr is a better aim and a better shot than I am...I truly hope that makes your day!
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  #102  
Old 08-15-2015, 5:36 PM
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I can make better ammo than you, just eyeballing it.
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Old 08-15-2015, 5:51 PM
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Liber
Great post.
But you missed the point.
You shoot my ammo and my gun against any gun JagerDog can muster up using his reloads.
I say you will win.
Next JagerDog shoots my gun with my reloads against any gun you can muster up and you use your reloads put together with your wonderful sexy hot fantastic *****en smoking hotrod calipers.
I say JagerDog beats you.
I will use my garbage piece of junk overseas scumbag horrible battery sucking job robbing calipers to load all the ammo both of you shoot.
The best part is you can pick the distance from 100 yards to 2500 yards or anywhere in between.
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  #104  
Old 08-15-2015, 5:55 PM
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JMP
On a serious note you use calipers for sorting your bullets base to ogive ogive to heel bearing surface and you use them to determine your seating depth and shoulder bump. I also use them to check case length uniformity and to measure my groups.
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Last edited by LynnJr; 08-15-2015 at 5:59 PM..
  #105  
Old 08-15-2015, 6:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by liber View Post
LOL...the only thing is that I don't need to have the most accurate ammo, and I don't need to beat you in any type of shootout at the OK Coral.

EVERYONE, LynnJr is capable of producing better ammo with his crappy POS HF calipers, and LynnJr is every bit as good as Jerry Stiller cause he uses the EXACT same POS HF calipers that send American $$$s to China.
Liber, this is an ammo forum. My expectation would be that folks would want to create the best possible ammo rather than simply compare tools.

I am with you on not sending money to China. Very little of my gear is made in China. Do you use an iPhone? I do not as they are cheap Chinese POSs. Admitedly, I do purchase a lot of good from Europe. Most of my firearms goods are from Europe, which includes the rifles and the scopes; however, I rely on US machining for the barrels. My dies and presses are also made in the US. Currently, I have one Japanese car that was made in Japan. I have one Japanese car that was made in Ohio, and I have one German car that was made in Germany.

Although I do not believe that high end calipers are an essential part of reloading, I will humor you and purchase the waterproof Mitutoyo calipers that you believe to be good, and I will see if it improves my results. However, in exchange, I ask you to spend just a little bit amount of money (about the same) to get yourself a decent die set (Redding Competition is fine) and an ordinary single stage press (Rock Chucker is fine). I will wager that you will see a much greater improvement than I will.

While you guys were fixing eachother's penis problems, I was at the range doing some load development. I did have a very promising load as I was trying some higher BC Berger bullets in my 6.5 Creedmoor. This was the result of the 11-15th bullets I used.



For load development, I would personally consider that (well sub-1/4 group) to be a very good group. Are you getting like results with your more expensive calipers?
  #106  
Old 08-16-2015, 12:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LynnJr View Post
JagerDog
I think you merged posters or got confused about halfway through your post.
I have never mentioned a locnload anything or water.

As this horse has now been beaten to death I will offer you and Liber both a challenge.
I say my reloads will outshoot your reloads. Now for the good part. You and Liber both come shooting and you each shoot your own guns against one of my guns but without me doing the shooting.
Liber shoots Lynn's gun against JagerDog and his gun then JagerDog shoots Lynn's gun against Libers gun.
I predict my reloads will beat both of yours with you two shooting them.
Sound like fun?
I responded to more than just what I quoted. Big deal. Sorry it was confusing for you. So confusing that you couldn't address ANY of the questions regarding inspection, utility, maintenance. So confusing you could only propose some silly and unrelated duel.

Your non-sequitur challenge is just that.

How about I make up a simple drawing and we both have to make said qty of parts using mill and lathe. You use HF calipers and I'll use my Absolute. Score will be a function of time and accuracy.

Sound stupid? No more stupid than your challenge.
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  #107  
Old 08-16-2015, 3:57 PM
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Sound stupid? No more stupid than your challenge.
Hear, hear!

What they fail to understand is that there are some folks that don't care to produce ammo that will split a nat's @$$ at 1000 yards...but rest assured I have to tools that I know can measure a nat's @$$ consistently. I'm not saying I don't want accurate ammo, but I get better ammo from my reloads than that I have bought. I get it at a fraction of the cost. I spend about $0.40/round for 308, that's with match grade bullets. I use match cases that I buy for $0.30/ea (once fired), but over a dozen reloads the cost is only about $.03/ea. per case. The most expensive portion is the bullet.

I also don't sit there and time my pulse, regulate my breathing, do a hail mary and take 2-3 minutes for each round...I normally shoot them about 1-2 seconds apart. My RO tries to get me to space them to 2 seconds...today he reminded me twice to try and space them out to 2 seconds each if I could, but doesn't hold me to it. I shot about 200 x 308, and 175 x 5.56. That's 375 pieces of brass...picking 'em up is one of the most difficult parts...(I need a brass catcher).

It matters not to me that I get 1/4 MOA, what matters to me is that I can hit center mass repeatedly, and that I know I can do at 200 yards and can do it fairly rapidly. The red dot I was using on my 308 today is 4 MOA, that's an 8" dot at 200 yards. Still, all of my shots are in the black rings. That's what matters to me.
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  #108  
Old 08-16-2015, 5:30 PM
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So why the expensive calipers then? It's like buying Redding competition die's for a handirifle.
  #109  
Old 08-16-2015, 6:32 PM
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So why the expensive calipers then? It's like buying Redding competition die's for a handirifle.
I don't understand why people keep calling them expensive calipers, they aren't, and the fact you call them that shows you know very little about machine tools. Having a good pair of calipers is akin to having a good magnetic base to hold an indicator. You can buy many magnetic bases for $40-$75 which are generally garbage. Spending $125 on a Noga instantly makes one wonder why they wasted money on garbage in the past. It pays to invest in quality tools, and $92 for a caliper is not an excessive amount of money, IMO.

OTOH, expecting an HF $30 caliper to match a $92 Mitutoyo is blasphemy.

(which BTW is about 40% of what a set of Redding dies cost)
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  #110  
Old 08-16-2015, 7:20 PM
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JagerDog
I'd like to take you up on your offer if we are building shooting related products and using our own equipment. I don't have a mill just an older LeBlond lathe I use for barrels.

Liber
With my ammo and gun YOU can shoot 1/4 moa at 100 yards for 5 shots.
And as JagerDog is only 90 minutes away he can as well.
Here is a 600 yard target with my caliper of choice.
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  #111  
Old 08-16-2015, 7:25 PM
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Sorry here is the picture
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  #112  
Old 08-16-2015, 7:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by liber View Post
I don't understand why people keep calling them expensive calipers, they aren't, and the fact you call them that shows you know very little about machine tools. Having a good pair of calipers is akin to having a good magnetic base to hold an indicator. You can buy many magnetic bases for $40-$75 which are generally garbage. Spending $125 on a Noga instantly makes one wonder why they wasted money on garbage in the past. It pays to invest in quality tools, and $92 for a caliper is not an excessive amount of money, IMO.

OTOH, expecting an HF $30 caliper to match a $92 Mitutoyo is blasphemy.

(which BTW is about 40% of what a set of Redding dies cost)
I use US made Starrett myself, so I know a little about decent calipers. I use Starrett not because it is more precise, but because I like nice stuff. But you turned this thread upside down over a suggestion that costs about as much as a happy meal.
  #113  
Old 08-16-2015, 7:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LynnJr View Post
With my ammo and gun YOU can shoot 1/4 moa at 100 yards for 5 shots.
And as JagerDog is only 90 minutes away he can as well.
Here is a 600 yard target with my caliper of choice.
I could use your calipers and make precision parts on my mill or lathe, opposed to you using my calipers and trying the same. So what's the point? I don't need my Mitutoyos. A good machinist should never let the tool prevent them from making quality parts, they should be able to adapt to them. I just strive for a little common sense when I buy my tools.

We all come here for a different reason. I came here to try and learn how to reload and save myself some money. Maybe one day I'll have a rifle and be able to make accurate ammo that I'll be able to get 1/4 MOA, and then again, maybe not. For me it will always be about making it myself, not using someone else's. I've never bought a firearm, I've only built them. When I have a firearm that is capable of 1/4 MOA, I'll have built it myself.

I could easily go buy a firearm that would get 1/4 MOA, but I see no fun in that. I'd rather get 20 MOA and have built it myself. Maybe stubborn in that regard, but it is how I am. Reloading for me is about being self sufficient and being able to make my own ammo. In the process I also save myself some money.

I would like to say I appreciate the help you've offered me, there is some irony to having a small disagreement on a simple tool like a caliper. But we all have our own values.
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  #114  
Old 08-16-2015, 8:52 PM
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Liber
I made two of my own actions but I don't know if that counts?
I had to use a friends mill but they both shoot decent.
You seem like the type of guy who will advance quickly into more and more accuracy. There are some key steps in reloading very accurate ammo and many that don't do anything at all. The key is figuring out what actually works and what is myth.
If you ever get up to NorCal you can shoot some of my toys and see what you think.
Here is BigRed and I made the barrel block and the stock for it. It weighs 94 pounds.
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  #115  
Old 08-16-2015, 9:25 PM
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I am in NorCal, I live in West San Jose, over by Cupertino.

I thought you were down South and/or AZ ?

I was at Metcalf today.
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  #116  
Old 08-16-2015, 9:27 PM
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Quote:
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Here is BigRed and I made the barrel block and the stock for it. It weighs 94 pounds.
That looks dandy! I'd say that's a firearm to be proud of!
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  #117  
Old 08-16-2015, 10:16 PM
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116 posts.

How many actually had anything to do with answering this simple question?

Quote:
anyone know how to remedy an arisaka 38 6.5mm that had primer backing out after firing?

  #118  
Old 08-16-2015, 10:25 PM
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I would like to say I appreciate the help you've offered me, there is some irony to having a small disagreement on a simple tool like a caliper. But we all have our own values.
Ya...hopefully we can all shake hands. Odd sometimes how two different well meaning positions can devolve.
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  #119  
Old 08-16-2015, 10:29 PM
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Quote:
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116 posts.

How many actually had anything to do with answering this simple question?




Well...several of the first attempting to answer were well off base.

I'd still maintain it's low pressure due to a gun fault or ammo incompatibility. It has nothing to do with bumping shoulders and such.

Towel bar may be the best use.
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  #120  
Old 08-17-2015, 5:46 AM
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Quote:
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116 posts.

How many actually had anything to do with answering this simple question?





In Calguns style , about 18 posts near related to the original question out of 119 . Better than most questions here .

Surprised it lasted this long , guess it could be measured with a HF set of calipers after all

But we do need pictures of the towel rack , or it didn't happen
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