Single Shot Exemption Explanation/Database Thread

[12voltguy]

Originally Posted by Table Rock Arms

Just dropping in to let you guys know that I am back from my vacation and will be doing single shot pistols again.

I figure by now there are so many FFL's in California that are doing them that there is much less need for me to do them. Which is great for me as I really started my business with some other things in mind and when I started doing the single shot pistols they just got out of control. At this point I am happy to help out where I can.

good to see you back

[Strykeback]

So glad to see Ryan is back! Atleast for those that dont have an sse ffl within 2 hours or they wont do the ones I want

[DavidEnt]

I just purchased a Ruger SR1911 online and had it sent to Tracy Rifle and Pistol. They did the SSE for me and I am now the proud owner of a fully functional, semi-automatic Ruger .45

[IncVoid]

Was reading A thread about a guy bringing his ak pistol to a range. Triggered my SSE fud.

Originally Posted by Smoke&Rattler

Only fact I know is, he said he contacted the DOJ, thus this concerns me other FFL's could follow and become a trend? Who knows. But, your right. Be only upset with the facts, and thus I am.

I don't want the DOJ thinking even the FFL's don't like it
I like people doing what is legal. But disagree with "keep doing it until it is legal", even tho it was legal in the first place

I don't think it works this way, but, I really don't want DOJ polling the stores and ranges for what they think should be legal and not. Election results has me questioning What I think gun owners opinions are ha.


I have an SS AR pistol. Manufactured with a 0-round sled mag. I put a gas tube on it and a 10 rounder. I have already been arrested with it and got it back. 2 Months after the Arrest. Based on this, I'd say it is currently legal, Regardless of DOJ deeming legal or not, they have documents that it had a gas tube and a 10 round mag in it at the time. So they clearly would hit me for "manufacturing" if that is what they want to determine at a later time. So I might as well keep the gas tube upper and 10 rounder in it.

This is more of a legal advice question I guess, should I stop putting 10 rounders in it? The 2A/CalGuns in me says keep using it until it is explicitly ruled illegal, and keep writing senators not to vote to make it illegal.

I do agree that rebranding a ruger pistol your own with a longer barrel can be done andis manufacturing by the right FFL, but can never be "remanufactured" into a "ruger" pistol on the dros sheet. Dropping in a rebranded ruger

But people are putting "drop in barrels" to make length requirements for the exemption correct? and Barrel swaps are not "manufacturing".


Due to the nature of the AR, I can take off the original upper, gas tube capable or not(depending on your SS Variant). Replace with an UPPER with a gas tube, and that still is not manufacturing correct? 2 pins. Uppers are "drop in parts" and thus would be legal, I mean no "Manufacturing" Charges. If I put a different slide on a 1911 am I manufacturing?

Sadly I don't know what "new" models of 1911's need LCI's and other disconnects and what not.After market slide manufacturers don't need to submit their slide for testing?

Is it illegal to defeat handgrip trigger disconnects or LCI'S on pistols, or magazine disconnects?

"Fixed magazine capacity of zero" Sounds like single shot, but still has an ability to "feed"
Single "round" wouldn't be appropriate because bolt actions can have magazines correct? It never mentions capacity, just single shot, maybe they should have defined it as "hand ejected" I dunno. Thank god they didn't.

Does the safety requirements law go bye bye if it doesn't define "single shot pistol" at all? What is needed for them to legally define it another bill/amendment to the penal code?

Of course don't want to borrow an old junk gun or some half *** configured AR pistol that spits out exhaust towards my face cause the gas tube is removed. But if I configure it myself that is on me.

I think I convinced myself my firearm is STILL legal.

[Cyc Wid It]

Originally Posted by IncVoid

I think I convinced myself my firearm is STILL legal.

And there you have it.

[Ls1FALimpala]

Atlantic has a fal pistol I want. Doesn't have a bb or a no shot mag. But they will be willing to install it prior to shipping it to ca. My question is can any fll do the transfer and it comes with a flashhider is that a problem?

[Cyc Wid It]

Yes they can, doesn't mean they will.

[TheCorporation]

Thank you for this thread and your contributions. It helped me get a Glock 19, all the while educating me about our state laws.

[schmeling31]

Originally Posted by 2fast4u

Any local So.Cal. Shops doing the work yet?

I've been told that they will do this at IslandView/Ventura Guns here in soCal, by one of there reps

[kemasa]

Originally Posted by IncVoid

But people are putting "drop in barrels" to make length requirements for the exemption correct? and Barrel swaps are not "manufacturing".

Look at the BATF FAQ for manufacturing:

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/manufacturers.html

For example, a drop in trigger is considered manufacturing. This means that manufacturing is not what you think it is, plus you need to also understand that manufacturing in regards to the BATF also requires that it is being done for sale or distribution, PLUS it has to be done more than once.

So, a barrel swap *might* be considered manufacturing, which would mean that it would be required to be stamped with the name of the company doing it, not that it would be illegal unless the proper process is done.

I think I convinced myself my firearm is STILL legal.

Yes, it is most likely legal, but how it was done might not be legal.

There are State and Federal laws which need to be followed and some of which do not make sense. I don't think that most of what the FAQ says is manufacturing is actually manufacturing, plus I don't think that most FFLs doing it are actually marking the firearm as required, nor dealing with the serial number issue with respect to manufacturing either.

[Cyc Wid It]

This issue keeps getting brought up every few pages, so I apparently need to keep repeating myself. Until a lawyer who is part of the CGF tells me otherwise, the information will remain unchanged.

READ THE ORIGINAL POSTS.

[IncVoid]

Originally Posted by kemasa

Look at the BATF FAQ for manufacturing:

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/manufacturers.html
Yes, it is most likely legal, but how it was done might not be legal.

There are State and Federal laws which need to be followed and some of which do not make sense. I don't think that most of what the FAQ says is manufacturing is actually manufacturing, plus I don't think that most FFLs doing it are actually marking the firearm as required, nor dealing with the serial number issue with respect to manufacturing either.

Got mine from QD.
"Quentin Defense is a fully licensed type 07 federal firearms manufacturer & class 02 SOT." done by an 07, which to my understanding they manufactured the firearm specifically to be single shot.

[MotoriousRacing]

I just purchased my first handgun (on-roster BuckMark) and am already wanting a G19 Gen4 FDE. I believe I understand the SSE and the gunsmithing, but this is what bother's me.

Originally Posted by Cyc Wid It

FAQ

Q: Can I shoot my gun in single shot exempt form?
A: Yes, and in theory nothing out of the ordinary should happen. Is it recommended? No.???

Is there potential to get questioned, hassled, etc. just for showing up at the range to fire the re-converted to factory specs handgun? How are you getting around this? Do I have to actually buy a conversion kit (longer barrel) so I can convert it when going to the range? If so, what would be the point of practicing with a different barrel than I would use in a SHTF scenario?

[Strykeback]

When you go to pick up your sse pistol your going to convert it back and give the shop their extended barrel back right then and there. No issues. Itl be stock from factory and no one will have any questions. Congrats on the fde. I was eyeing a FDE gen 4 17 the other day.

[mrdd]

Originally Posted by MotoriousRacing

I just purchased my first handgun (on-roster BuckMark) and am already wanting a G19 Gen4 FDE. I believe I understand the SSE and the gunsmithing, but this is what bother's me.

Is there potential to get questioned, hassled, etc. just for showing up at the range to fire the re-converted to factory specs handgun? How are you getting around this? Do I have to actually buy a conversion kit (longer barrel) so I can convert it when going to the range? If so, what would be the point of practicing with a different barrel than I would use in a SHTF scenario?

Perhaps are misunderstanding the use of the SSE. The item needs to be DROS'd in an exempt configuration to get the exemption from the roster. The conversion is done for that purpose alone. The intent is to use it in the factory configuration, not the exempt configuration.

Why would you expect to be hassled? There are other legal ways to end up with an off-roster configuration, and no one has any reason to question those. You acquired it legally, so what is the problem?

[terdog]

Does your range check all firearms for legality? If so, Id find a different place to shoot.

[MotoriousRacing]

Thanks for the answers!

Originally Posted by mrdd

Perhaps are misunderstanding the use of the SSE. The item needs to be DROS'd in an exempt configuration to get the exemption from the roster. The conversion is done for that purpose alone. The intent is to use it in the factory configuration, not the exempt configuration.

I guess the laws don't make sense to me. Since the SSE/reconversion is so easy, it seems against the law to acquire and posess on off-roster gun this way.

Originally Posted by mrdd

Why would you expect to be hassled? There are other legal ways to end up with an off-roster configuration, and no one has any reason to question those. You acquired it legally, so what is the problem?

I've actually never gone to a range, I've done all my practice in the desert near Lake Havasu. I assummed a range could be somehow liable if they allowed off-roster guns, or if the state becomes even more anti-gun, that there could be potential random DOJ inspections in the future.

[terdog]

It seems you are trying to apply COMMON SENSE to this situation. Remember, we are dealing with the LAW. Common sense does not apply here.

[kemasa]

Originally Posted by MotoriousRacing

Is there potential to get questioned, hassled, etc. just for showing up at the range to fire the re-converted to factory specs handgun? How are you getting around this? Do I have to actually buy a conversion kit (longer barrel) so I can convert it when going to the range? If so, what would be the point of practicing with a different barrel than I would use in a SHTF scenario?

I don't think you are understanding the question that is being asked, which is can you shoot the firearm when it is in the SINGLE SHOT CONFIGURATION. This is NOTHING about after it is converted back to normal.

If you look at the quality of some the single shot barrels and how the barrel was created, you might think twice about whether you would want to use it ever for anything other than as a paperweight or to technically convert a firearm to single shot. I say technically since if the firearm can not be shot with it, then could it raise some issues.

[LBDamned]

Originally Posted by MotoriousRacing

Thanks for the answers!



I guess the laws don't make sense to me. Since the SSE/reconversion is so easy, it seems against the law to acquire and posess on off-roster gun this way.



I've actually never gone to a range, I've done all my practice in the desert near Lake Havasu. I assummed a range could be somehow liable if they allowed off-roster guns, or if the state becomes even more anti-gun, that there could be potential random DOJ inspections in the future.

most ranges don't exam your guns (not to any great detail anyway)... the only one that I go to that gives more than a glance in OC Sheriff's range - and they are just making sure there are no Sat night specials coming in... and it's highly doubtful they would realize a certain gun is not on DOJ roster... none of the other ranges I frequent would bother with it.

[MotoriousRacing]

Originally Posted by MotoriousRacing

I just purchased my first handgun (on-roster BuckMark) and am already wanting a G19 Gen4 FDE. I believe I understand the SSE and the gunsmithing, but this is what bother's me.

Is there potential to get questioned, hassled, etc. just for showing up at the range to fire the re-converted to factory specs handgun? How are you getting around this? Do I have to actually buy a conversion kit (longer barrel) so I can convert it when going to the range? If so, what would be the point of practicing with a different barrel than I would use in a SHTF scenario?

Originally Posted by mrdd

Perhaps are misunderstanding the use of the SSE. The item needs to be DROS'd in an exempt configuration to get the exemption from the roster. The conversion is done for that purpose alone. The intent is to use it in the factory configuration, not the exempt configuration.

Why would you expect to be hassled? There are other legal ways to end up with an off-roster configuration, and no one has any reason to question those. You acquired it legally, so what is the problem?

I definitely misunderstood the answer above .

Ultimately, understanding a random inspection is not likely (at this time), how is one to explain having an off-roster gun if put in that situation? Simply saying "I modified it" is supposed to allow you to keep the gun and stay out of trouble, just because the law doesn't say I can't modify it? Isn't the purpose of the roster to tell which guns are allowed to be owned as configured by the factory, and which guns could only be owned if "permanently" modified as single shot?

Thanks for putting up with questions from a newb.

[CaliB&R]

Originally Posted by MotoriousRacing

Isn't the purpose of the roster to tell which guns are allowed to be owned as configured by the factory, and which guns could only be owned if "permanently" modified as single shot?

Nope, the roster just says what guns Dealers may sell new to civilians. If its SSE/SAE, PPT or intra-familial transfer, then the roster means diddly jack.

[anoldguy]

I've had a 9mm converted to Single Shot because it was 'at the time' off-roster. It had been on the approved list up until November 2009, but the manufacturer didn't renew when I wanted to purchase a new one so I did the SSE. Who in their right mind would be able to know when mine was purchased versus one that had been on the apporved list up until Nov. 2009 (I purchased mine in 2011)? They'd have to see my DROS and compare it to when I purchased it to know when it had gone 'off' list. If the one you are considering has ever been approved, then I'd never worry about anyone ever even checking. But I wouldn't imagine any range would be that sharp.
M

[dspiel]

I tried ordering a XDM from buds yesterday and this morning they cancelled my order. I called them to explain that I am wanted it shipped to an 07 FFL that can do the conversion and they would not honor the order regardless.

[mrdd]

That is a known issue with buds. Their policy.

ETA: If you look at the first post of this thread, it has a list of vendors who will not ship off roster to CA, and buds is at the top of the list.

[dspiel]

Update: Called Impact Guns and they were willing to ship the gun so I ordered from them.

[mrdd]

There you go.

[kemasa]

Originally Posted by MotoriousRacing

Ultimately, understanding a random inspection is not likely (at this time), how is one to explain having an off-roster gun if put in that situation? Simply saying "I modified it" is supposed to allow you to keep the gun and stay out of trouble, just because the law doesn't say I can't modify it? Isn't the purpose of the roster to tell which guns are allowed to be owned as configured by the factory, and which guns could only be owned if "permanently" modified as single shot?

The answer to any question about any firearm that you legally own is: I legally own this firearm. Nothing more. People tend to get in trouble by being stupid and saying too much. Remember, you have a right to remain silent.

The law is to harass people. There are MANY ways to legally own a firearm which is not on the certified list, such as a PPT, being a resident of multiple states, moving from outside of CA into CA, intrafamilial transfer, etc.

If you slightly change a firearm on the certified list, then it can not be transferred by a FFL unless the person is exempt or the transfer is exempt (PPT).

The certified list is claimed to be about safety, but then police are exempt from have a firearm which is tested to ensure that it is safe (based on the claims of the reason for the law, not my view). Any firearm which was unsafe would result in the manufacturer being sued out of existance.

[MotoriousRacing]

Thanks for helping out. I'd like to straighten out a few things in my mind. Sorry if the answers are in the previous pages.

Originally Posted by Cyc Wid It

Recipe:
1. Convert to single shot
2. DROS and wait
3. Deliver
4. Re-convert

Regarding the recipe;

1. When buying an off-roster handgun from an out-of-state vendor (riflegear is out-of-stock), does the out-of-state vendor have to make the SSE conversion before shipping to a FFL, or can the receiving FFL make the conversion?

2. (Silly question, but hey...) Is it correct to assume that I will get the manufacturers stock barrel/hardware along with the SSE barrel/hardware when I take possession?

3. Can I do the reconversion myself or is it required to be done by an FFL or gunsmith?

Thanks again for explanations.

[kemasa]

3) Typically it is easy to exchange the parts since it is typically the same as taking it apart for cleaning, but it depends on the firearm. I have not heard of any that require a gunsmith, but that does not mean that there is not one that does.

2) It depends. From what I have seen, you don't get the factory parts until you return the SSE parts. This is to ensure that they get the parts back.

1) It depends. In theory, anyone can do the conversion, but there is some question as to whether it is considered manufacturing, depending on what has to be done. The manufacturing FAQ says that installing a precision trigger on a firearm that the FFL intends to sell is manufacturing, which does not make sense to me, but I don't make or enforce the laws. So, it depends on who is willing to do the conversion.

[terdog]

So, it depends on who is willing to do the conversion.

It seems that your uncertainties are best handled by talking directly with the FFL that you are considering. Straight from the horses mouth so to speak.

[MotoriousRacing]

Originally Posted by terdog

It seems that you uncertainties are best handled by talking directly with the FFL that you are considering. Straight from the horses mouth so to speak.

Yep, you all have provided me with enough understanding to basically begin the SSE purchase process, speaking with the FFLs directly, as needed. Thanks again.

[amgsf]

Planning on doing my First SSE gun. Just a few observations from reading the forum posts. Please correct me I am wrong.

I can buy the gun I want from a outstate dealer (is there a list?) that will ship the non roster gun to CA or have the CA/outstate dealer handling the SSE conversion acquire the gun. It seems the easiest way is to have your local SSE Dealer acquire the gun, do the conversion, paperwork and transfer the gun to you. . I assume the purchase price of the gun is reasonable…worst case MSRP…the small savings of personally finding the best price for the gun would offset the SSE costs.

From my recent experience with buying a butchered CA complaint gun, it's worth paying $200-300 more for a non- CA feature gun. I live in the Bay Area and Valkrie Arms seems to be the nearest 1 stop for all the SSE process. I see good comments about Tablerock Arms in Oregon. Why ship to out of state ( I understand certain guns are harder to convert and Oregon is easier to ship any firearm to then CA)…this adds another step if you can find a local SSE shop to hande your firearm?

Thanks

[keenkeen]

Originally Posted by amgsf

I see good comments about Tablerock Arms in Oregon. Why ship to out of state ( I understand certain guns are harder to convert and Oregon is easier to ship any firearm to then CA)…this adds another step if you can find a local SSE shop to hande your firearm?

Many out of state sellers will not ship "off roster" guns to ffl dealers in CA.

Thus the reason to ship to an out of state ffl...

[kemasa]

FYI, I talked to the person that I know at the BATF (who is most likely reading this :-) and was told that single shot conversions are not manufacturing as long as there is no modification to the firearm and that it is a pre-existing, complete functioning firearm. You do need to be licensed as a dealer or gunsmith (basically the same) in order to do the conversion. The answer is not for the publication though, so it is only word of mouth, but if you ever get into trouble regarding this, I can tell you who to call as a witness :-).

It was also said that the drop-in trigger FAQ needs to be changed as it is old and things have changed since then.

[Addax]

We have recently been informed by our local BATF supervisor "word of mouth" (no official memo), that if you take an existing firearm and convert / alter the "operation" of the firearm from the original factory configuration ( i.e. semi-auto to single shot) by having to install new parts then they are considering this re-manufacturing the gun, unless the original manufacturer of the gun makes / offers a single shot configuration.

We were advised to obtain a variance letter from BATF so we do not need to re-mark the semi-auto pistols we convert to SSE.

Just passing along this information.

We can't say we agree with it, but we do not make the regulations.

[kemasa]

Originally Posted by Addax

We have recently been informed by our local BATF supervisor "word of mouth" (no official memo), that if you take an existing firearm and convert / alter the "operation" of the firearm from the original factory configuration ( i.e. semi-auto to single shot) by having to install new parts then they are considering this re-manufacturing the gun, unless the original manufacturer of the gun makes / offers a single shot configuration.

Who is your local BATF supervisor? You can send me a PM and I will forward that to the person that I know and they can talk about it :-). The reason I ask is that I heard back today from the person I know at the BATF and he received a response back from up high and that it is not manufacturing. This is from the LA Field Division, but he also mentioned San Francisco. If you got that response before today, then I would ask the question again.

He may not be aware of the recent response (which is not for publication, so it is just word of mouth until/unless he can get approve to give it out).

[EBR Works]

I can confirm what Kemasa has said. I had a conversation with the same ATF person today.

[kemasa]

Originally Posted by EBR Works

I can confirm what Kemasa has said. I had a conversation with the same ATF person today.

:-)

He told me that he was going to be calling you.

[Addax]

The conversation took place a couple months ago.

Kemasa I will pm you the info.

If you can also get us in touch with your contact that would great.