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  #1  
Old 10-17-2019, 10:53 AM
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Default Glock Stovepiping without a Magazine

I have a new Glock 17 that I have put about 1000 rounds through without a single jam or feeding issue.

The other day I did a drill where you load a round from the magazine, eject the magazine, shoot, the gun will cycle and have an empty chamber, then pull the trigger on the empty chamber. I have a tendency to flinch and I was doing this drill to visualize how bad my flinching was.

The odd thing was that about 2/3 of the time the gun would have a problem ejecting and the spent round would stovepipe.

I am not really concerned about this because I have never had it happen with a magazine in the gun.

But was curious if this was typical for a Glock?
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Old 10-17-2019, 10:56 AM
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This is fairly common in Glocks and other striker fired handguns if I recall. Can’t remember the exact reason why it happens though.
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Old 10-17-2019, 11:40 AM
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Nothing wrong with the gun, the gun was never designed to operate like that so don't be surprised when you do things like leave the mag out, that it doesn't operate normally.

If the gun works with a magazine in it, its fine.

Last edited by Over It; 10-17-2019 at 11:43 AM..
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Old 10-17-2019, 12:00 PM
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The slide is not slowed by stripping a new round so it closes faster.
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Old 10-17-2019, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saudadeii View Post
The slide is not slowed by stripping a new round so it closes faster.
Interesting
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Old 10-17-2019, 12:24 PM
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I've had the same thing happen with about that frequency during that drill.
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Old 10-17-2019, 12:27 PM
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Normal for Glocks.

The claw and the grip tension of the Glock extractor is not strong enough the hold the shell on its own. It needs the magazine to support the shell.
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Old 10-17-2019, 12:45 PM
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You're not gripping the gun hard enough.
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Old 10-17-2019, 1:09 PM
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I'll have to try it again, but I've fired my Glocks w/o mags and I don't think I had issues. Glock 19, 34, 41, and 45.
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Old 10-17-2019, 1:16 PM
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I posted something similar a while back with my G34 as well. In my drill, I loaded 3-4 rounds in the mag, chambered the round, and layed it on the shooting table. Then in one motion, picked up and shot one handed. Oddly when I had 4 rounds or less, the next round would get stuck at an angle in the feed ramp. More than 4 rounds, no problem. Not sure if yours is related to my issue. Perhaps it's the recoil spring?

Mine ejected fine though.
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Old 10-17-2019, 1:18 PM
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Interesting information...

Who knew?
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  #12  
Old 10-17-2019, 1:23 PM
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Normal, keep a magazine in the gun.
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Old 10-17-2019, 1:33 PM
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With a mag in the gun the spent case hits the ejector as the next round in the mag comes to the top of the mag. With no mag, this last part doesn't happen.

Nothing to do with a weak extractor, slide operating too fast or holding the gun too weak.
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Old 10-17-2019, 1:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T3Pros View Post
You're not gripping the gun hard enough.
This... With less mass in the gun you have to do more to prevent limp wristing it. If you allow the whole gun to move with the recoil the energy needed to cycle it is lost.
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  #15  
Old 10-17-2019, 2:19 PM
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Some of the responses are pretty funny.

This has been an common issue with 9mm Glocks since the Gen3 and is the reason for BTF (Brass to Face) where the case comes out of the ejection port and straight back toward you.

The cause is reduced, compared to Gen2...tension of the extractor. The extractor isn't holding the case after it has pulled it out of the chamber. This causes it to "float" in the ejection port to bounce around until it encounters the returning slide. It is then driven forward to bounce off the front of the ejection port and out toward your face.

An inserted magazine prevents it from dropping out the mag well. Without the inserted magazine the case starts to drop...but in your case it is caught before it drops far enough to clear the returning slide and ends up getting caught as a stovepipe jam.

There are after market extractors that address the problem of control of the extracted case. Folks have also changed both extractors and ejectors with some success
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  #16  
Old 10-17-2019, 3:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert1234 View Post
With a mag in the gun the spent case hits the ejector as the next round in the mag comes to the top of the mag. With no mag, this last part doesn't happen.

Nothing to do with a weak extractor, slide operating too fast or holding the gun too weak.
Makes sense
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  #17  
Old 10-17-2019, 7:41 PM
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It’s NOT “normal” for Glocks. It’s you flinching. Operator error. Don’t flinch and don’t change your grip by anticipating recoil while shooting. Your Glock will function perfectly after you straighten yourself out.
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  #18  
Old 10-17-2019, 7:56 PM
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I'm surprised how often I see this asked.

I think Hickok did a video on this. Check it out.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sjGSrjymmqE

Watch the Glock fanbois come out of the woodwork and blame operator error though...
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  #19  
Old 10-17-2019, 9:26 PM
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Interesting responses…

It appears that it is normal.

As I said I was not concerned about it, only curious. Now I have my answer it appears to be normal.

Thanks
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  #20  
Old 10-20-2019, 3:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystery_Milk View Post
I'm surprised how often I see this asked.

I think Hickok did a video on this. Check it out.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sjGSrjymmqE

Watch the Glock fanbois come out of the woodwork and blame operator error though...
Interesting video. I doubt Hickok was limp wristing.

With the glock 22 he tries first, you can see the cases ejecting over his head and maybe to the left for the first few shots.

Then at 1:52 if you look closely the case ejects straight down through the pistol grip. I had to watch it a couple times to catch it. The next shot then stovepipes and is quite low inside the action.

With the glock 23 a similar thing happens. From 3:00 or so until the stovepipe at 3:20, the cases seem to eject downward through the grip/empty magwell.

With the 1911, I had a harder time seeing the cases eject (watching this on a phone) so not sure if any were dropping down or not.

No matter, for the glocks at least, it seems the magazine provides some support for the empty case as it is pulled back out of the chamber.
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  #21  
Old 10-20-2019, 7:28 AM
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My Glocks do this too (Gen 3) new Gen 4 and Gen 5 do not.

I wouldn't worry too much about it. Not very likely needing to shoot something without a magazine becomes an issue
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  #22  
Old 10-20-2019, 7:42 AM
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On a side note. Might I suggest that there's a better way to work on your flinch? With the method that you're using, you know that after the shot, there's going to be a click, and so you relax, knowing that there's not going to be a bang, and so you don't flinch. But next time you load a round you know there's going to be a bang and so you may flinch.

I suggest getting half as many dummy rounds as your magazine will hold. (That's 7-8 for a Glock 19). More dummy rounds makes for a much cheaper range session. I've gone as far as to load only 1-2 dummy rounds and the rest are dummy LIVE rounds. Either have someone else load the mag for you, or, if you're alone, just close your eyes when you load a random mixture of live and dummy rounds. Keep your eyes closed as you load the magazine into the gun and until after you chamber the round. Now you can't anticipate the bang or the click and you get a much better picture of how well you're doing at curing the flinch.

Last edited by bigger hammer; 10-21-2019 at 9:15 AM.. Reason: To correct word
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  #23  
Old 10-20-2019, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by static2126 View Post
My Glocks do this too (Gen 3) new Gen 4 and Gen 5 do not.

I wouldn't worry too much about it. Not very likely needing to shoot something without a magazine becomes an issue
And even if you did, extraction, ejection, and feeding aren't something you need to worry about until you get a magazine into the gun.
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Old 10-20-2019, 3:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad H View Post
The other day I did a drill where you load a round from the magazine, eject the magazine, shoot, the gun will cycle and have an empty chamber, then pull the trigger on the empty chamber. I have a tendency to flinch and I was doing this drill to visualize how bad my flinching was.
Get snap caps or dummy rounds and mix them in your magazine with the live rounds. You’ll get the added benefit of having to clear a failure to fire malfunction as well.
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Old 10-20-2019, 6:44 PM
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It’s Trump’s fault.
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Old 10-20-2019, 10:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigger hammer View Post
On a side note. Might I suggest that there's a better way to work on your flinch? With the method that you're using, you know that after the shot, there's going to be a click, and so you relax, knowing that there's not going to be a bang, and so you don't flinch. But next time you load a round you know there's going to be a bang and so you may flinch.

I suggest getting half as many dummy rounds as your magazine will hold. (That's 7-8 for a Glock 19). More dummy rounds makes for a much cheaper range session. I've gone as far as to load only 1-2 dummy rounds and the rest are dummy rounds. Either have someone else load the mag for you, or, if you're alone, just close your eyes when you load a random mixture of live and dummy rounds. Keep your eyes closed as you load the magazine into the gun and until after you chamber the round. Now you can't anticipate the bang or the click and you get a much better picture of how well you're doing at curing the flinch.
This ^^^^
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Old 10-20-2019, 11:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad H View Post
I have a new Glock 17 that I have put about 1000 rounds through without a single jam or feeding issue.

The other day I did a drill where you load a round from the magazine, eject the magazine, shoot, the gun will cycle and have an empty chamber, then pull the trigger on the empty chamber. I have a tendency to flinch and I was doing this drill to visualize how bad my flinching was.

The odd thing was that about 2/3 of the time the gun would have a problem ejecting and the spent round would stovepipe.

I am not really concerned about this because I have never had it happen with a magazine in the gun.

But was curious if this was typical for a Glock?
In most semi-auto handguns, the magazine follower or the next top round in the magazine stack are part of the ejection.
The force of the magazine spring is pushing the fired case UP as the case is being pulled out of the chamber and before the fired case strikes the ejector which pops the case free of the extractor and sends the case spinning out of the ejection port.
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Old 10-21-2019, 12:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigger hammer View Post
On a side note. Might I suggest that there's a better way to work on your flinch? With the method that you're using, you know that after the shot, there's going to be a click, and so you relax, knowing that there's not going to be a bang, and so you don't flinch. But next time you load a round you know there's going to be a bang and so you may flinch.
Notable instructors like Adam Pinchaud and the late Ron Avery suggested the drill he's doing.
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  #29  
Old 10-21-2019, 9:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T3Pros View Post
Notable instructors like Adam Pinchaud and the late Ron Avery suggested the drill he's doing.
I may not be a "notable instructor," but I have been a firearms instructor for several decades. I think that my drill is better than the one that the op mentioned and you say these gentlemen "suggest."

If you know when the gun is going to go BANG and when it's going to go CLICK it will take much longer to cure a flinch than if you don't. With their drill, you know ALL the time which will happen, and so you'll tend to relax, calm your mind when you know it's going to go CLICK. Far better not to EVER know so that you'll work on calming down, on every trigger pull.




I just noticed a malapropism in the drill that I suggested. I used the word "dummy" twice when the second time I should have said "live." My Post #23. I've corrected the post.
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Old 10-21-2019, 9:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigger hammer View Post
I may not be a "notable instructor," but I have been a firearms instructor for several decades. I think that my drill is better than the one that the op mentioned and you say these gentlemen "suggest."
I think it's good to keep an open mind and spend some time thinking about why these instructors like the drill.

How do you discern a pre ignition flinch from a post ignition push? Rob Leatham, The Great One, said he'll fail the ball and dummy drill every time, and yet there are few shooters on this planet better than him.

Last edited by T3Pros; 10-21-2019 at 9:51 AM..
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Old 10-21-2019, 10:53 AM
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Thank you for all the advice on curing my flinching.

I am happy with the drill that I have been using, for me it helps me visualize what I am doing wrong. I am a fan of Adam Pinchaud's simple approach.

I was not really concerned about the issues without the magazine. I was just curious so I posted here to see if it was common.

My flinching is not that extreme, but I like to keep improving.

Here is a 15 shot target at 10 yards. The grouping is biased about 1" to the left as a result to my flinching. While doing this drill I can see what is going on and why I am shooting to the left. So I find it helpful.
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Old 10-21-2019, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad H View Post



Here is a 15 shot target at 10 yards. The grouping is biased about 1" to the left as a result to my flinching. While doing this drill I can see what is going on and why I am shooting to the left. So I find it helpful.
That's a good lookin' target.

Flinching is not why people shoot left.

Take your triple checked unloaded pistol, point it at a defined spot on the wall with your dominant hand only. Grip it like you were going to shoot. Now squeeze the grip harder. Many will notice that as they squeezed the grip, the front sight for a right handed shooter moved to the left.

Outstretch the empty palm of your right hand for a right handed shooter. Face palm upward. Now move your index finger back and forth like you were pressing a trigger. You'll probably notice your other 3 fingers moving as well.

As you are pressing the trigger, your other 3 fingers are pressing on the front strap, pushing the muzzle to the left.

A way to mitigate this is to grip harder with your support hand.
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Old 10-21-2019, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T3Pros View Post
I think it's good to keep an open mind and spend some time thinking about why these instructors like the drill.
I always have an open mind. Can you tell us why "these instructors like the drill?" and why you think it's better than mine?

Quote:
Originally Posted by T3Pros View Post
How do you discern a pre ignition flinch from a post ignition push?
I don't bother to separate the two. With either type of error, the muzzle usually drops. Occasionally the muzzle will rise, but that's relatively rare. This can be from a slam of the finger against the trigger and/or the press of the web of the hand against the gun's backstrap. It doesn't make any difference to me which hand movement causes the movement of the gun, it's a nervous, anticipatory, response to the noise and the movement of the gun. If I remove the anticipation, the flinch disappears. Basically they're concentrating on what the gun will do AFTER the hammer falls. I want them to concentrate on their trigger pull and sight picture BEFORE the hammer falls. The first is a common innate human response to loud noises and sudden violent movement occurring right in front of the shooter. The second is a learned behavior.

Two keys to accurate shooting that we're dealing with here are "let the gun go off," and "let it jump." Essential to these are a calm mind and a 'surprise let off.' Those are achieved for most people by doing the drill that I've described. Not knowing when the gun will go off, helps to calm the mind and do the same thing every time. If you know when it's going to go CLICK, calming down is easy. After several CLICKS in a row, most people start performing good trigger pulls and follow throughs.

These kinds of flinches can be due to a couple of things. One is noise sensitivity and another is shock sensitivity. In both, people react to the loud noise or the jump of the gun in recoil with a physical movement of their own. They know the gun is going to come back at them in recoil, and so they try to push the gun away at the moment it fires. It's an instinctive reaction to the jump and the push of recoil. If you know when the gun will go bang and you suffer from this malady, you'll jump when it fires in anticipation of the push and the noise. But if you don't know and you have a flinch, you'll probably jump in anticipation, when it goes CLICK. But since there's no jump or push from the gun, your error will be obvious. With self coaching or help from an instructor, you'll tend to calm down after several CLICKS. The jump of the gun when it fires tends to conceal the error, but the results on the target will give it away. By the time you see the target it's too late to correct the error. But dry firing when the CLICK or BANG is a surprise shows the shooter when they've pushed or slammed the trigger in anticipation.

There are other methods that are helpful but they require the presence of an instructor. This exercise, with lots of dummy rounds, is cheap, easy, and can be done when the shooter is alone at the range. While there is an initial cost to purchase more dummy rounds than most people commonly use, it's offset by the cost‒saving on ammunition. I've spent 30 minutes working on flinches and only fired a dozen rounds with this method. It's successful about 95% of the time, in my experience. The rest of the time folks need some hands on time with an instructor.
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Old 10-21-2019, 11:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigger hammer View Post
I always have an open mind. Can you tell us why "these instructors like the drill?" and why you think it's better than mine?
The ball and dummy drill doesn't discern the difference between a pre ignition flinch and a post ignition push.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigger hammer View Post
I don't bother to separate the two
A post ignition push does not affect accuracy but does aid in recovery time, so I'd suggest separating it from a pre ignition flinch.

Rob Leatham has said he's worked very hard over decades for his post ignition push.
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Old 10-21-2019, 12:51 PM
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It's not a flinch issue. It's likely the lack of support from the magazine.
Notice in Hickok's video, the cases eject UNTIL the magazine is almost empty; the ejection failures occur only on the last 1 or 2 rounds. That may have something to do with the different angle of the top round in the magazine or the less magazine spring tension when there is only 1 or 2 rounds in the magazine.
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Old 10-21-2019, 1:19 PM
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OP, as the others have stated, shooting to the L is a grip issue, not a flinch issue. Make sure that there is no space between your R and L hands where your palms meet. If there is a gap, slide your L hand back to close the gap and exert more force with your L shoulder / pectoral muscles to stabilize the gun. It's going to be uncomfortable until you build up those muscles, but that will fix your POI problems once and for all. Cheers.
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Old 10-22-2019, 7:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad H View Post
I am happy with the drill that I have been using, for me it helps me visualize what I am doing wrong. I am a fan of Adam Pinchaud's simple approach.
As long as you're happy, I'm happy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad H View Post
Here is a 15 shot target at 10 yards. The grouping is biased about 1" to the left as a result to my flinching.
Nice looking target, but I don't think that the fact that the group is centered "about 1" to the left [b] [is] a result of [your] flinching." Flinching difficult to replicate exactly at every shot. It causes the rounds to spread because it's not the same every time. Sometimes you'll get a good pull and sometimes the flinch will take over. You OTOH have placed all of your rounds in the same hole. Other than a little bit of vertical stringing, your accuracy is quite good.

I'd just tell you to move your sights a bit, to center your group on the bullseye.
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Old 10-22-2019, 7:01 AM
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Originally Posted by T3Pros View Post
Flinching is not why people shoot left.
I think that it depends on how they're holding the gun. If they're right handed and shooting one handed it might be among the reason sthat they're shooting left. If they're using a weak grip, it might be contributing. If they're not gripping the gun snugly, it might cause "shoot[ing] left."

There are many reasons that a flinch develops or continues. I think that your absolute statement, just above, is too absolute. SOMETIMES "flinching IS why people shoot left."

So far, your argument, consists mainly of logical fallacies, the appeal to authority, aka name dropping. Let me know when you've answered my simple direct questions, as I've answered yours, and perhaps we can continue.
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Old 10-22-2019, 8:55 AM
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OP have a limp wrist?
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Old 10-22-2019, 9:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad H View Post
Thank you for all the advice on curing my flinching.

I am happy with the drill that I have been using, for me it helps me visualize what I am doing wrong. I am a fan of Adam Pinchaud's simple approach.

I was not really concerned about the issues without the magazine. I was just curious so I posted here to see if it was common.

My flinching is not that extreme, but I like to keep improving.

Here is a 15 shot target at 10 yards. The grouping is biased about 1" to the left as a result to my flinching. While doing this drill I can see what is going on and why I am shooting to the left. So I find it helpful.


That’s a very consistent flinch!
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