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  #121  
Old 10-18-2019, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Wordupmybrotha View Post
Fast, accurate follow-up shots require recoil control and sighting the target more so than light trigger, correct?

All-metal gun such as the SP-01 that you have, helps absorb the recoil, so what's left in the equation seems to be to quickly aim the sights on target. That seems to require actual shooting time, right?
It's a bit more elaborate than that.

Imagine that you're starting with wanting to see your sights as you shoot. Pick a berm, no target and no visible features and fire a shot. Look for three things: whether your brain registered the moment when the shot was fired (this is not trivial, try it), whether your brain registered the highest point where the sights went (don't force the gun in any direction, let it go where it wants to go), and whether your brain registered the trajectory of the sights as they recoiled.

After doing it a few times to see how it works, try two shots. No target, just an empty berm. Can you see two mental images of the sights as you fire twice? It should register similarly to how a strobe light would make you register images. Start slower, then try some faster shots. Figure out how much you can see when all you care about is seeing the sights.

Now try to see if you can register the movement of the sights between shots. It should be a squiggly blur, but should give you some idea about the size and shape of the movement of the sights. Once you start seeing this, start adjusting your grip to make this "blur" narrower - that's the easier part. You're not looking for aiming or targets, just the "blur" as you shoot. When you adjust your sideways pressure and "shrink the blur," it's time to work on your vertical alignment. This one is tricky because you'll have tendency to push down in order to shrink "the blur" vertically. That's not correct. You should let your grip and structure return the gun even if you can make the vertical motion smaller by actively pushing - active control will completely mess up your accuracy and is not needed.

Once you can see the sights and are aware of the general motion of them, once you can register each "flash" as the gun is fired, once you can optimize the "blur" to be as small as possible with the correct grip, then you can start playing with the timing and speeding up - if the "blur" remains on the target and is smaller than the area you want to hit, you can shoot as fast as you can pull the trigger and you will know that you hit your target with every shot.

If you go too fast, the "blur" becomes larger and you see a "flash" that looked off the target - that's completely acceptable. It's a miss, but you saw it and "called it." You have to "shrink the blur," so you either slow down or you improve your grip and stance.
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  #122  
Old 10-18-2019, 1:05 PM
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Originally Posted by IVC View Post
It's a bit more elaborate than that.

Imagine that you're starting with wanting to see your sights as you shoot. Pick a berm, no target and no visible features and fire a shot. Look for three things: whether your brain registered the moment when the shot was fired (this is not trivial, try it), whether your brain registered the highest point where the sights went (don't force the gun in any direction, let it go where it wants to go), and whether your brain registered the trajectory of the sights as they recoiled.

After doing it a few times to see how it works, try two shots. No target, just an empty berm. Can you see two mental images of the sights as you fire twice? It should register similarly to how a strobe light would make you register images. Start slower, then try some faster shots. Figure out how much you can see when all you care about is seeing the sights.

Now try to see if you can register the movement of the sights between shots. It should be a squiggly blur, but should give you some idea about the size and shape of the movement of the sights. Once you start seeing this, start adjusting your grip to make this "blur" narrower - that's the easier part. You're not looking for aiming or targets, just the "blur" as you shoot. When you adjust your sideways pressure and "shrink the blur," it's time to work on your vertical alignment. This one is tricky because you'll have tendency to push down in order to shrink "the blur" vertically. That's not correct. You should let your grip and structure return the gun even if you can make the vertical motion smaller by actively pushing - active control will completely mess up your accuracy and is not needed.

Once you can see the sights and are aware of the general motion of them, once you can register each "flash" as the gun is fired, once you can optimize the "blur" to be as small as possible with the correct grip, then you can start playing with the timing and speeding up - if the "blur" remains on the target and is smaller than the area you want to hit, you can shoot as fast as you can pull the trigger and you will know that you hit your target with every shot.

If you go too fast, the "blur" becomes larger and you see a "flash" that looked off the target - that's completely acceptable. It's a miss, but you saw it and "called it." You have to "shrink the blur," so you either slow down or you improve your grip and stance.
This is a perfect explanation. Save it and use it as a reference.
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  #123  
Old 10-18-2019, 1:52 PM
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Originally Posted by krb View Post
Also where do you ride? I’m usually around Conejo valley.
My local rides include: El Moro/Crystal Cove, Aliso Woods, Santiago Oaks, Whiting Ranch, and others. If you are looking for gnar in Orange County search for Car Wreck, The Luge, Rattlesnake, Lizards, Top of the World, and San Juan, there are a bunch more once you get looking, including Sheep Hills, a DJ track near HB, and the old “secret” Oakley trails (short but some good jumps and gaps). I was pretty geeked out on downhill and Enduro for a number of years but at some point you realize that doing gap jumps over a certain age is not going to turn out well in the end. Truth be told I’m just starting back up due to MTB and BJJ injuries I had to recover from.

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Originally Posted by krb View Post
Oh yeah and I’m trying to learn to call my shots but I’m not good at it yet.
Me either but it’s a top line goal I’m working on. On my iPhone there’s a Notes app where, among other things, I have my notes on specific areas of practical shooting so I can create live-fire lesson plans on the fly. These notes also included other people’s posts that I deemed worthy of rereading from time-to-time. Here cut & pasted are my Shot Calling notes/drills:

SHOT CALLING

Travis Tomasie Drill - Two identical targets, one at 25 yards and one right next to you. Fire two shots on 25 yard target, immediately mark target next to you with tape where you saw your sights lift from, then check 25-yard target to verify. https://youtu.be/9q1XC8k-tZc

Some Dude on a Forum: I struggled with shot calling until recently. I started to incorporate a drill where I am shooting at a bare backstop. When I do this, I'm not concerned with hits, just trying to watch the sights rise and fall...blocking out every other input except visual. I start slow, and gradually speed up my cadence. I usually start each practice session out this way to "tell" my eyes what to do for the rest of the session.

Some Dude on a Forum: To start gaining some awareness of this you can do the drill where you just rip 6 shots into the berm. do nothing else than try and watch the front sight the WHOLE time.

Some Dude on a Forum: Call your shots the first step is to actually know what any given displaced sight alignment equals what hit at any distance. A good drill for learning this is to setup targets at 5, 10, 15, 20, and 25 yards. Then put a black mark in the middle of the target. Then use the black mark to center the rear sight notch. Then displace the front sight Left until there is no more light bar on the left side and break the shot at each distance. Repeat the process for displacing the front sight to the Right, Up, and Down. Then go see what the hits look like on target. I think you will be surprised at how "Displaced" the sight alignment can be and still get solid A-zone hits out to 15 yards. For most sight setups if the Fiber dot is contained anywhere within the rear notch that is usually A-C hits out to 15 yards and creeping into the C-D at 20 yards and D-M hits at 25 yards. The important part of this is that you need to KNOW what hit quality a displaced sight alignment will produce at any given distance.
Once you know how displaced the sights can be verses the hit it will generate then you can really start working on shooting the same set of targets more aggressively to understanding what the sight picture means as the shot breaks.

Some Dude on a Forum: Best practice for me when I started the journey to shot calling was 6 shot, 10 yrd "Bill Drills." You may be blinking hard and missing the sights the first couple shots in the string but your eyes will start staying open. Once you're able to keep your eyes open through the shots and focusing on the front sight you'll be on your way to calling the shots. *If you can't get to the range grab an airsoft with no BBs in it, it cycles a little slower but that's ok too, you'll start picking up the sights when the shot breaks and staying on the sights through the recoil cycle.*

Some Dude on a Forum (thanks IVC!) Imagine that you're starting with wanting to see your sights as you shoot. Pick a berm, no target and no visible features and fire a shot. Look for three things: whether your brain registered the moment when the shot was fired (this is not trivial, try it), whether your brain registered the highest point where the sights went (don't force the gun in any direction, let it go where it wants to go), and whether your brain registered the trajectory of the sights as they recoiled.

After doing it a few times to see how it works, try two shots. No target, just an empty berm. Can you see two mental images of the sights as you fire twice? It should register similarly to how a strobe light would make you register images. Start slower, then try some faster shots. Figure out how much you can see when all you care about is seeing the sights.

Now try to see if you can register the movement of the sights between shots. It should be a squiggly blur, but should give you some idea about the size and shape of the movement of the sights. Once you start seeing this, start adjusting your grip to make this "blur" narrower - that's the easier part. You're not looking for aiming or targets, just the "blur" as you shoot. When you adjust your sideways pressure and "shrink the blur," it's time to work on your vertical alignment. This one is tricky because you'll have tendency to push down in order to shrink "the blur" vertically. That's not correct. You should let your grip and structure return the gun even if you can make the vertical motion smaller by actively pushing - active control will completely mess up your accuracy and is not needed.

Once you can see the sights and are aware of the general motion of them, once you can register each "flash" as the gun is fired, once you can optimize the "blur" to be as small as possible with the correct grip, then you can start playing with the timing and speeding up - if the "blur" remains on the target and is smaller than the area you want to hit, you can shoot as fast as you can pull the trigger and you will know that you hit your target with every shot.

If you go too fast, the "blur" becomes larger and you see a "flash" that looked off the target - that's completely acceptable. It's a miss, but you saw it and "called it." You have to "shrink the blur," so you either slow down or you improve your grip and stance.

----------------------------------------------------
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Last edited by Stumpfenhammer; 10-18-2019 at 1:59 PM..
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  #124  
Old 10-18-2019, 4:07 PM
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Originally Posted by IVC View Post
If you can recognize "misaligned shot" (calling shots) AND you can fire a make-up consistently and honestly, you have the main and most critical ingredient to make a USPSA Master.
I would wish if that were so... Still, a VERY long way to go for me (considering that I don't have the time nor opportunities to further push my practice/training to a higher level)...

If only I could be more consistent and be able to "replicate," for lack of a better word, on a stage performance in my last match. I could actually see the "red" drop back into the notch after recoil and I break the shot. Basically the speed of my shooting is determined whether I can see the sights or not, to the level sufficient to make the shot.


(*) Thanks to NRG for the video. For some lucky reason, I got squadded with Jojo Vidanes' group.


Time of 22.78-sec with 26 Alphas and 3 Charlies giving me an HF of 6.1018. This resulted in a stage rank of 28/125 - besting a lot of Open/PCC/Limited shooters with a 10-rounder Production G34.3.



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  #125  
Old 10-18-2019, 5:28 PM
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Originally Posted by rodralig View Post
Oh, they do SEE their sights for each and every shot.

If not, how can they call the shot?

Part of the sport/skill is being able to transition to the next target as fast as possible. They know when to start transitioning by knowing where the sights are either on the trigger break or when the sights starts to rise.

It's like in steel matches. If you wait for the ring before moving on to the next target, that's too slow. You move when you see the sights on target when the trigger broke.

There is no "one aim and two shots" (double tap); there is a sight picture for every round fired (controlled pair).

Quote:
Originally Posted by tanks View Post

Learning to call the shot is a difficult skill to master, but once you get there it is amazing. You can do a make up shot without consciously thinking about it once your eye processes that the sights did NOT lift from where you aimed.

Also, a lot of fast shooting is due to prepping the trigger during recoil. Ron Avery used to say that by the time the gun comes back down/moves to the target area one should already be 80% on the trigger and need just the last 20% pressure to finish the shot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stumpfenhammer View Post
...and to answer one of your previous questions they do see the sights (going up AND coming down) on every shot beyond a certain distance and dependent on the size of the target. So at 1 to 10 yards (and probably further for them) on an IPSC-sized (or similar) target they typically index off the slide and have a "target focus", but when shooting smaller targets or at longer distances they shift more focus to the front sight, but in either case they are seeing the slide or the sights both lifting and returning (unless it's point and shoot distance). This is known as "calling the shot" and the reason they've trained to develop that ability is that they can shoot a stage faster by doing so.

The reason they can shoot faster that way is that they can tell by watching the front sight rise whether they hit where they were aiming or if they missed and need to reshoot that target before transitioning to the next one. Hard to explain so I'll try a few different ways...most people trying to shoot one target several times in rapid succession, or, say -- three different targets -- shoot, then the sight disappears and then they wait for it to reappear before they either check for a hole, fire again on the same target, or transition to the next target (or they "doubletap" a habit that will limit your ability to achieve ultimate shooting and target transition speed).

...
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodralig View Post
Do a "compressed break" on-demand drill.
Quote:
Originally Posted by IVC View Post
It's a bit more elaborate than that.

Imagine that you're starting with wanting to see your sights as you shoot. Pick a berm, no target and no visible features and fire a shot. Look for three things: whether your brain registered the moment when the shot was fired (this is not trivial, try it), whether your brain registered the highest point where the sights went (don't force the gun in any direction, let it go where it wants to go), and whether your brain registered the trajectory of the sights as they recoiled.

...
If you go too fast, the "blur" becomes larger and you see a "flash" that looked off the target - that's completely acceptable. It's a miss, but you saw it and "called it." You have to "shrink the blur," so you either slow down or you improve your grip and stance.
Great example of why I love Calguns. Thanks for taking the time to post great tips!
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  #126  
Old 10-18-2019, 5:34 PM
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The OP's list is all hammer fired DA/SA guns. There is no DA/SA trigger out there thats any better than the CZ, theyre all pretty bad. Sig, Hk, Beretta, and FN have terrible triggers and after you buy one for $1k you'll be in the same position needing to spend more on action work. I think the best bet is to drop the few hundred and get the Cajun setup. It's a real nice trigger and will make your CZ a totally different gun.

If you're open to other fire control types then you'd have SAO options and striker options. With that being said no solution will be cheaper or better than spending $500 and getting a bunch of go fast bits. Good luck, let us know what you get!
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  #127  
Old 10-19-2019, 4:41 PM
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FWIW, I installed a guide rod mounted comp on a LAV G17 RTF (GEN3) and now the muzzle rise is null... significantly less than a GEN3 19 and a CZ all steel SP-01 that I shot side by side back and forth with it today. The 17 RTF does not have a RMR, just stock steel sights, but I shot with and without a Surefire X300U (borrowed from my G41) and the light made little to no difference other than weight... I preferred to shoot it without the X300. In case anyone is interested in a comp in CA, this one works really well on a 17. Honestly I was not expecting that much of a difference. Seems to make a bigger difference than a G22 vs. G22C (the Glock comp barrels actually do something too). Probably will never do this but has me wondering what the G22C would do if the Mass Driver Comp was installed on it - two comps, hahah.
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  #128  
Old 10-19-2019, 10:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Stumpfenhammer View Post
My local rides include: El Moro/Crystal Cove, Aliso Woods, Santiago Oaks, Whiting Ranch, and others. If you are looking for gnar in Orange County search for Car Wreck, The Luge, Rattlesnake, Lizards, Top of the World, and San Juan, there are a bunch more once you get looking, including Sheep Hills, a DJ track near HB, and the old “secret” Oakley trails (short but some good jumps and gaps). I was pretty geeked out on downhill and Enduro for a number of years but at some point you realize that doing gap jumps over a certain age is not going to turn out well in the end. Truth be told I’m just starting back up due to MTB and BJJ injuries I had to recover from.



Me either but it’s a top line goal I’m working on. On my iPhone there’s a Notes app where, among other things, I have my notes on specific areas of practical shooting so I can create live-fire lesson plans on the fly. These notes also included other people’s posts that I deemed worthy of rereading from time-to-time. Here cut & pasted are my Shot Calling notes/drills:

SHOT CALLING

Travis Tomasie Drill - Two identical targets, one at 25 yards and one right next to you. Fire two shots on 25 yard target, immediately mark target next to you with tape where you saw your sights lift from, then check 25-yard target to verify. https://youtu.be/9q1XC8k-tZc

Some Dude on a Forum: I struggled with shot calling until recently. I started to incorporate a drill where I am shooting at a bare backstop. When I do this, I'm not concerned with hits, just trying to watch the sights rise and fall...blocking out every other input except visual. I start slow, and gradually speed up my cadence. I usually start each practice session out this way to "tell" my eyes what to do for the rest of the session.

Some Dude on a Forum: To start gaining some awareness of this you can do the drill where you just rip 6 shots into the berm. do nothing else than try and watch the front sight the WHOLE time.

Some Dude on a Forum: Call your shots the first step is to actually know what any given displaced sight alignment equals what hit at any distance. A good drill for learning this is to setup targets at 5, 10, 15, 20, and 25 yards. Then put a black mark in the middle of the target. Then use the black mark to center the rear sight notch. Then displace the front sight Left until there is no more light bar on the left side and break the shot at each distance. Repeat the process for displacing the front sight to the Right, Up, and Down. Then go see what the hits look like on target. I think you will be surprised at how "Displaced" the sight alignment can be and still get solid A-zone hits out to 15 yards. For most sight setups if the Fiber dot is contained anywhere within the rear notch that is usually A-C hits out to 15 yards and creeping into the C-D at 20 yards and D-M hits at 25 yards. The important part of this is that you need to KNOW what hit quality a displaced sight alignment will produce at any given distance.
Once you know how displaced the sights can be verses the hit it will generate then you can really start working on shooting the same set of targets more aggressively to understanding what the sight picture means as the shot breaks.

Some Dude on a Forum: Best practice for me when I started the journey to shot calling was 6 shot, 10 yrd "Bill Drills." You may be blinking hard and missing the sights the first couple shots in the string but your eyes will start staying open. Once you're able to keep your eyes open through the shots and focusing on the front sight you'll be on your way to calling the shots. *If you can't get to the range grab an airsoft with no BBs in it, it cycles a little slower but that's ok too, you'll start picking up the sights when the shot breaks and staying on the sights through the recoil cycle.*

Some Dude on a Forum (thanks IVC!) Imagine that you're starting with wanting to see your sights as you shoot. Pick a berm, no target and no visible features and fire a shot. Look for three things: whether your brain registered the moment when the shot was fired (this is not trivial, try it), whether your brain registered the highest point where the sights went (don't force the gun in any direction, let it go where it wants to go), and whether your brain registered the trajectory of the sights as they recoiled.

After doing it a few times to see how it works, try two shots. No target, just an empty berm. Can you see two mental images of the sights as you fire twice? It should register similarly to how a strobe light would make you register images. Start slower, then try some faster shots. Figure out how much you can see when all you care about is seeing the sights.

Now try to see if you can register the movement of the sights between shots. It should be a squiggly blur, but should give you some idea about the size and shape of the movement of the sights. Once you start seeing this, start adjusting your grip to make this "blur" narrower - that's the easier part. You're not looking for aiming or targets, just the "blur" as you shoot. When you adjust your sideways pressure and "shrink the blur," it's time to work on your vertical alignment. This one is tricky because you'll have tendency to push down in order to shrink "the blur" vertically. That's not correct. You should let your grip and structure return the gun even if you can make the vertical motion smaller by actively pushing - active control will completely mess up your accuracy and is not needed.

Once you can see the sights and are aware of the general motion of them, once you can register each "flash" as the gun is fired, once you can optimize the "blur" to be as small as possible with the correct grip, then you can start playing with the timing and speeding up - if the "blur" remains on the target and is smaller than the area you want to hit, you can shoot as fast as you can pull the trigger and you will know that you hit your target with every shot.

If you go too fast, the "blur" becomes larger and you see a "flash" that looked off the target - that's completely acceptable. It's a miss, but you saw it and "called it." You have to "shrink the blur," so you either slow down or you improve your grip and stance.

----------------------------------------------------
Thanks. I'm writing that down now...
Conejo Valley around the San Fernando Valley of LA... OC is too far! I lived in SF for 4 years in school and started MTB in my 20's there where it all started... Mt Tam and environs...

There's lots of good advice on this forum but also people with no manners who think they're so great that they're too harsh on guys asking questions. Didn't used to be like this. Used to be much friendlier. I guess some people lose their manners when they're anonymous behind a keyboard. Actual real people at ranges - like on the mountain - are much better.

Be well!
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  #129  
Old 10-21-2019, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Stumpfenhammer View Post
Some Dude on a Forum (thanks IVC!)
Just a quick add-on...

Calling shots is not just at speed. It's also in bullseye mode or any variety of slow fire. Break it down into "seeing sights as you fire" and "seeing sights in recoil." It's akin to having a two-step process.

Once you see the sights as you fire, but not yet in recoil, you'll be able to fire again as soon as the sights have come back down and you've had the time to reacquire the sight picture. Actually, you won't see the sights as they come down (you could fire at that time again), but after they have come down, then wiggled around and finally settled down enough to where your brain sees them again.

However, don't underestimate the value of this first step - it's crucial for transitions and position entries. It's also very valuable on plate racks. Adding the second step, where you see the "blur" and what sights are doing in recoil, will allow you fast follow-up shots and will change "double tap" to proper "two independent fast shots."
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  #130  
Old 10-23-2019, 6:58 PM
Stumpfenhammer Stumpfenhammer is offline
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Originally Posted by IVC View Post
Just a quick add-on...

Calling shots is not just at speed. It's also in bullseye mode or any variety of slow fire. Break it down into "seeing sights as you fire" and "seeing sights in recoil." It's akin to having a two-step process.

Once you see the sights as you fire, but not yet in recoil, you'll be able to fire again as soon as the sights have come back down and you've had the time to reacquire the sight picture. Actually, you won't see the sights as they come down (you could fire at that time again), but after they have come down, then wiggled around and finally settled down enough to where your brain sees them again.

However, don't underestimate the value of this first step - it's crucial for transitions and position entries. It's also very valuable on plate racks. Adding the second step, where you see the "blur" and what sights are doing in recoil, will allow you fast follow-up shots and will change "double tap" to proper "two independent fast shots."
Much appreciated, thank you.
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  #131  
Old 11-03-2019, 7:22 AM
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Originally Posted by IVC View Post
After doing it a few times to see how it works, try two shots. No target, just an empty berm. Can you see two mental images of the sights as you fire twice? It should register similarly to how a strobe light would make you register images. Start slower, then try some faster shots. Figure out how much you can see when all you care about is seeing the sights.

Now try to see if you can register the movement of the sights between shots. It should be a squiggly blur, but should give you some idea about the size and shape of the movement of the sights. Once you start seeing this, start adjusting your grip to make this "blur" narrower - that's the easier part. You're not looking for aiming or targets, just the "blur" as you shoot. When you adjust your sideways pressure and "shrink the blur," it's time to work on your vertical alignment. This one is tricky because you'll have tendency to push down in order to shrink "the blur" vertically. That's not correct. You should let your grip and structure return the gun even if you can make the vertical motion smaller by actively pushing - active control will completely mess up your accuracy and is not needed.
Had to come back to this after day #1 of the Steve Anderson class...

We a drill to practice calling shots - we attached a clean target to a target already full of holes. The clean target faces downrange.

Steve asks us to shoot 4-round from 10-yards and call our shots. Since there are so many holes already in the target, this becomes difficult for the uninitiated.

So, it was my turn. I fire 4 rounds. He asks me to call out the shots. Me, though confident in indoor range conditions to call a shot, wasn't that confident in calling it out because of the speed range (faster) and that the other shooters were calling their shots out correctly.

I replied in an non-confident tone, "I think 3 As and I couldn't place the 4th one as I lost sight of it."

He goes, "What if I said it was a D, would you believe me?" I replied, "Yes." He asks "Why?" I responded with "Because you're Steve."

He rephrases the question, "Do you think it is a miss?" And I simply blurted it out, "No! The sights moving up and down never left the A-zone." He said, "Aha!!!" and showed me shot hits... 4 As centered.




_
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  #132  
Old 11-03-2019, 8:25 AM
Calier Calier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bubbapug1 View Post
You can shoot a 1911 much faster and more accurately than most any other gun due to their excellent triggers. A longer heavy trigger pull is going to bother ANY SHOOTER.
^^^This. I've owned 1911s, DA/SA, and striker fired pistols. PPQ comes very close to a 1911 though, I must say.
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  #133  
Old 11-03-2019, 8:27 AM
jarhead714 jarhead714 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calier View Post
^^^This. I've owned 1911s, DA/SA, and striker fired pistols. PPQ comes very close to a 1911 though, I must say.
The PPQ is indeed the exception.
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  #134  
Old 11-03-2019, 8:33 AM
Calier Calier is offline
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One more thing OP, "Cajunized" czs tend to appear in the Calguns Marketplace quite regularly. I've never shot a Cajunized CZ, nor do I doubt that they are amazing, just something to consider...
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