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  #1  
Old 10-16-2019, 1:17 PM
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Default Franklin Armory Title 1

I guess this is a Title 1 Other.

https://www.recoilweb.com/franklin-a...es-153755.html

Last edited by RoundEye; 10-16-2019 at 2:08 PM..
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  #2  
Old 10-16-2019, 1:52 PM
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A title 1 is not NFA....thats just an "Other" like a mossberg cruiser.
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Old 10-16-2019, 2:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BONECUTTER View Post
A title 1 is not NFA....thats just an "Other" like a mossberg cruiser.
Okay, I updated my post.

But I thought those shorties like the Cruiser and Serbu were registered in CA through the old SSE process. How would you DROS one of these things?
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Old 10-16-2019, 2:11 PM
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Originally Posted by RoundEye View Post
Okay, I updated my post.



But I thought those shorties like the Cruiser and Serbu were registered in CA through the old SSE process. How would you DROS one of these things?
Other 4473
Long arm DROS?

Dunno...

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Old 10-16-2019, 2:22 PM
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Originally Posted by RoundEye View Post

But I thought those shorties like the Cruiser and Serbu were registered in CA through the old SSE process. How would you DROS one of these things?
That's the problem.
Franklin is saying: "Not a Rifle, Pistol, Shotgun" so no AW laws can apply.

DROS system says Pick "Rifle, Pistol, or Shotgun" so AW laws would apply.

This has been thought of before.... going back 10 plus years.
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  #6  
Old 10-16-2019, 2:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BONECUTTER View Post
That's the problem.
Franklin is saying: "Not a Rifle, Pistol, Shotgun" so no AW laws can apply.

DROS system says Pick "Rifle, Pistol, or Shotgun" so AW laws would apply.

This has been thought of before.... going back 10 plus years.
Stripped receiver then I guess...
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Old 10-16-2019, 2:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoundEye View Post
Okay, I updated my post.

But I thought those shorties like the Cruiser and Serbu were registered in CA through the old SSE process. How would you DROS one of these things?
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoundEye View Post
Stripped receiver then I guess...
Stripped receivers you still need to select Rifle/Shotgun.... so no go.
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  #8  
Old 10-16-2019, 5:38 PM
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Under Federal laws/regulations...

It is a Title 1 Other.


Under CA laws/regulations...

There are no "other".

It is a "long gun" because it does not meet the definition of a "handgun".

The CA DROS system and CFARS will further force it to be "registered" as a "rifle" because it has a 16" rifled barrel.

Therefore, it is a "long gun, rifle".


Before the implementation of long gun registration (pre-2014), the CA DROS system would allow it to be transferred as a "long gun" and it would not be registered as a "rifle". So, determination if it was a "rifle" or not, would depend on how it is configured and since it does not have a shoulder stock, it would not meet the definition of a "rifle".

However, with long gun registration now in play (post-2013), the CA DROS system and CFARS will force it to be registered as a "rifle" or as a "shotgun". Since it has a 16" rifled barrel, it would go into the "rifle" subcategory. Since it's ends up being registered as a "rifle", CA DOJ or any of the 58 DAs Office could apply CA assault weapons laws for rifles to it.
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Last edited by Quiet; 10-16-2019 at 5:46 PM..
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  #9  
Old 10-16-2019, 5:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BONECUTTER View Post
That's the problem.

Franklin is saying: "Not a Rifle, Pistol, Shotgun" so no AW laws can apply.



DROS system says Pick "Rifle, Pistol, or Shotgun" so AW laws would apply.



This has been thought of before.... going back 10 plus years.
How would you DROS a ma deuce? I thought those get DROSd as a long gun. I'd have to look up the last one we did to see how we DROSd it. I will see what our CA DOJ rep has to say for guidance.

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Old 10-16-2019, 5:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
Under Federal laws/regulations...

It is a Title 1 Other.


Under CA laws/regulations...

There are no "other".

It is a "long gun" because it does not meet the definition of a "handgun".

The CA DROS system and CFARS will further force it to be "registered" as a "rifle" because it has a 16" rifled barrel.

Therefore, it is a "long gun, rifle".


Before the implementation of long gun registration (pre-2014), the CA DROS system would allow it to be transferred as a "long gun" and it would not be registered as a "rifle". So, determination if it was a "rifle" or not, would depend on how it is configured and since it does not have a shoulder stock, it would not meet the definition of a "rifle".

However, with long gun registration now in play (post-2013), the CA DROS system and CFARS will force it to be registered as a "rifle" or as a "shotgun". Since it has a 16" rifled barrel, it would go into the "rifle" subcategory. Since it's ends up being registered as a "rifle", CA DOJ or any of the 58 DAs Office could apply CA assault weapons laws for rifles to it.
Just because it is registered as a rifle due to limitations of the computer system shouldnt make it eligible for AW regs in my opinion. And of course my opinion doesn't count

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  #11  
Old 10-16-2019, 5:54 PM
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Default I found this ...

California State Laws

Section 17090 "Rifle"
As used in 16530, 16640, 16650, 16660, 16870, and 17170, 17720 to 17730, inclusive, 17740, subdivision (f) of
27555, Article 2 (commencing with 30300) of Chapter 1 of Division 10 of Title 4, and Article 1 (commencing with
33210) of Chapter 8 of Division 10 of Title 4, "rifle" means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and
intended to be fired from the shoulder
and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the
explosive in a fixed cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger.

https://www.atf.gov/file/117166/download

Doesn't sound like a rifle based on the above definition. Sounds like CADOJ needs to add another "Gun Type" to the Long Gun transaction form.

Last edited by RoundEye; 10-16-2019 at 6:11 PM..
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Old 10-16-2019, 5:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ugimports View Post
Just because it is registered as a rifle due to limitations of the computer system shouldnt make it eligible for AW regs in my opinion. And of course my opinion doesn't count
I just think the way CA DOJ implemented the system was a way for them to implement underground regulations to force firearms that did not fit their defined categories to be defined into categories that they wanted. It's one of the reasons why they continue to refuse to create an "other" category of firearms and why they did not create a generic long gun subcategory for long guns that did not meet the definition of a rifle or a shotgun.
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  #13  
Old 10-16-2019, 7:05 PM
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We will get this changed, either by negotiation (which is going on currently,) or by litigation.
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Old 10-16-2019, 7:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ugimports View Post
How would you DROS a ma deuce? I thought those get DROSd as a long gun. I'd have to look up the last one we did to see how we DROSd it. I will see what our CA DOJ rep has to say for guidance.

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I'd be interested in their response. Additionally, they need a pathway to transfer Mossberg Cruisers, barreled long gun actions (e.g. 98 Mausers without a stock,) and oddities such as Uberti Buntlines which feature a revolver action and 18" barrel.
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  #15  
Old 10-16-2019, 7:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by franklinarmory View Post
I'd be interested in their response. Additionally, they need a pathway to transfer Mossberg Cruisers, barreled long gun actions (e.g. 98 Mausers without a stock,) and oddities such as Uberti Buntlines which feature a revolver action and 18" barrel.
Barreled long gun actions we've DROSd as long gun receivers. Mossberg Cruiser we've done as a shotgun.

The M1919A4 we last did we DROSd as a rifle.. right or wrong I'm not 100% sure.

I sent the question off to CA DOJ.
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Old 10-17-2019, 2:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by franklinarmory View Post
I'd be interested in their response. Additionally, they need a pathway to transfer Mossberg Cruisers, barreled long gun actions (e.g. 98 Mausers without a stock,) and oddities such as Uberti Buntlines which feature a revolver action and 18" barrel.
1st response:
Quote:
Looking at the file link you provided of the firearm, this would be a semi-automatic rifle with a fixed stock and/or cheek pad and in the description it says it has a barrel length of 16 in. My major concern is that in the description, it says it has a standard magazine release which would technically not make that a fixed magazine. The firearm also has a flash suppressor and a forward pistol grip which are assault weapon characteristics with a detachable magazine. The top action of the firearm would need to break open in order to release the magazine to constitute as a fixed magazine. So I do not believe this firearm is California compliant.

The manufacture seems to be calling this compliant but based on the picture and description it is not. Please let us know if you have any further questions.
I responded with "It doesn't have a stock so it's technically not a rifle."
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Old 10-17-2019, 2:33 PM
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That is really interesting. They obviously need more training. Are you willing to disclose the source? Were they replying in their official capacity or just shooting from the hip?
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Old 10-17-2019, 2:40 PM
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Anyone have a good link to ATF regs that show this is a Title 1 other? The best I found was:
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearm...finition-rifle

Which isn't too helpful if CA DOJ considers the buffer tube a stock now.
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Old 10-17-2019, 2:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by franklinarmory View Post
That is really interesting. They obviously need more training. Are you willing to disclose the source? Were they replying in their official capacity or just shooting from the hip?
Official capacity I assume. It's the rep assigned to the region I am in. CA DOJ has a list of all the reps, but they ask we do not disclose it to the general public. It wasn't a random DES employee/helpline interaction.
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Old 10-17-2019, 2:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ugimports View Post
Anyone have a good link to ATF regs that show this is a Title 1 other? The best I found was:
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearm...finition-rifle

Which isn't too helpful if CA DOJ considers the buffer tube a stock now.
They can't, otherwise they would be complicit in selling SBRs to the public. CA7 uses the same buffer tube and it is on the roster.

Our original XO-26 letter would clarify the issue federally. https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/...d.php?t=429106 It is attached to the first post.
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Old 10-17-2019, 2:54 PM
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2nd Response
Quote:
Thank you for sending the information. Unfortunately, it is still not compliant and won’t be approved through DES.

Let us know if you have any further questions. J
What I send them:
Quote:
To clarify, ATF doesn't define this as a rifle:

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearm...finition-rifle

The term “Rifle” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed metallic cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger.

It doesn't appear as though it was designed to be fired from the shoulder since there is no stock on it (just the buffer tube with a cheek pad).
I will follow-up asking about the CA7.
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Old 10-17-2019, 2:59 PM
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Thanks. Good work!

...though the only reason why it does not go through DES is because they are errant in not having a class in the drop down menu. If they review the AW regulations, the state has clearly defined a rifle as having a stock.
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Old 10-17-2019, 3:04 PM
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The California DoJ would likely be willing to take their chances in court. Their position would be stronger on a firearm where the structure behind the trigger was added only for the purpose of contacting the human body, as opposed to an AR where the purpose of the buffer tube is to house a spring and buffer.
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Old 10-17-2019, 3:09 PM
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The California DoJ would likely be willing to take their chances in court. Their position would be stronger on a firearm where the structure behind the trigger was added only for the purpose of contacting the human body, as opposed to an AR where the purpose of the buffer tube is to house a spring and buffer.
They've called me back to say that they are working on the issue. That could be a stall tactic, but we shall see. If they force us to litigate on the issue when they are clearly in the wrong, then that is a lack of their integrity, and ultimately it will cost them.
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Old 10-17-2019, 3:24 PM
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Hopefully the more level headed and objective people within Cal DoJ are evaluating the issue (and reading this thread).
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Old 10-17-2019, 4:29 PM
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They've called me back to say that they are working on the issue. That could be a stall tactic, but we shall see. If they force us to litigate on the issue when they are clearly in the wrong, then that is a lack of their integrity, and ultimately it will cost them.
Could be why I didn't receive a reply to my follow-up asking about the CA7. I already have a customer that wants one so hopefully this gets resolved as a go for us.
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Old 10-17-2019, 4:56 PM
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Seems like the person I'm emailing is a bit confused now:
Quote:
Yes, that is on the roster and is till accurate. It will need to include a permanently fixed magazine because those come with large cap mags or can be switched out with a 10 round mag.

Just be careful, if any other firearms from the manufacture come through that may not technically have a fixed magazine. My concern with the previous firearm is that the description on the website states it has a standard magazine release button, and that is a red flag that it is not a fixed magazine.
Email I sent was:
Quote:
Sorry, I had 1 further follow-up question. You mentioned the firearm I sent a link to had a stock on it. However, the buffer tube assembly on that is the same one no the Franklin Armory CA7 which is on the CA DOJ Roster as a pistol. Is that still accurate?

Here's info on the CA7 that is on the CA DOJ Roster:

https://franklinarmory.com/franklin-...lifornia-only/

I'm assuming that can't be classified as a stock if it is on a pistol, correct?
Seems like they are saying the CA7 needs a fixed mag (which we know it doesn't). At this point I will stop asking additional questions since FA is already working with CA DOJ. Could be she is referring to the Title1 as only being legal if it was fixed mag. Which might be true if it was actually classified as a Centerfire Semi Auto Rifle, which it shouldn't be by ATF definition.
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  #28  
Old 10-17-2019, 5:14 PM
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Ugimports, thanks for checking and keeping us up to date.
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Old 10-17-2019, 7:16 PM
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ATF legality on making an AOW out of a rifle?
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Old 10-17-2019, 7:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taperxz View Post
ATF legality on making an AOW out of a rifle?
Not legal.
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Old 10-17-2019, 7:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EBR Works View Post
Not legal.
I know you can’t make a pistol out of a rifle but can you point me to the regs?

Not doubting you! Just curious

Edit: I noticed that in the OPs article, Franklin mentioned how IT NEVER had a stock on it so I’m inclined to agree with the verbiage they used in the article

Last edited by taperxz; 10-17-2019 at 7:36 PM..
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Old 10-17-2019, 7:40 PM
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So, can a pistol go AOW with a rifle length upper? Knowing it can’t go back to a pistol?
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Old 10-17-2019, 8:00 PM
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IIRC, the ATF will not approve a Form 1 or 2 of an AOW if the resulting configuration is equal to or greater than 26”.
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  #34  
Old 10-17-2019, 8:07 PM
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They can if it is concealable or actually concealed.
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Old 10-17-2019, 8:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EBR Works View Post
IIRC, the ATF will not approve a Form 1 or 2 of an AOW if the resulting configuration is equal to or greater than 26.
Quote:
Originally Posted by franklinarmory View Post
They can if it is concealable or actually concealed.
OK. Ill sit and wait till Jason D. gives me a heads up
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Old 10-17-2019, 8:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taperxz View Post
OK. Ill sit and wait till Jason D. gives me a heads up
Somehow, I think I'm being challenged. I'll respectfully present my argument.

* The XO-26 is generally NOT an AOW since it is over 26".
* ATF provided an exception for concealed firearms over 26". Those firearms would still be AOWs subject to NFA regulation.
* If the firearm can be subject to NFA regulation, it can generally be registered in the NFRTR. (The prime exception would be civilan registration of post 86 machine guns.)

So it is obvious that an AOW application of a firearm over 26" would need to overtly state their intent to use the firearm concealed. I would bet that someone somewhere came to the erroneous conclusion you couldn't register the firearm because they didn't provide all of the necessary information in their Form 1.

By the way, Jason and I converse on a daily basis, and you wouldn't need Jason to come to this conclusion. Submit a form 1 and see what happens!
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Old 10-17-2019, 8:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by franklinarmory View Post
Somehow, I think I'm being challenged. I'll respectfully present my argument.

* The XO-26 is generally NOT an AOW since it is over 26".
* ATF provided an exception for concealed firearms over 26". Those firearms would still be AOWs subject to NFA regulation.
* If the firearm can be subject to NFA regulation, it can generally be registered in the NFRTR. (The prime exception would be civilan registration of post 86 machine guns.)

So it is obvious that an AOW application of a firearm over 26" would need to overtly state their intent to use the firearm concealed. I would bet that someone somewhere came to the erroneous conclusion you couldn't register the firearm because they didn't provide all of the necessary information in their Form 1.

By the way, Jason and I converse on a daily basis, and you wouldn't need Jason to come to this conclusion. Submit a form 1 and see what happens!

Uh, no! No challenge what so ever . Its just over my head and I was saying I will have him explain it to me when the time is right.

I know your relationship with him but for stuff like this, Ill have him inform me when the time is best for him.
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  #38  
Old 10-17-2019, 8:55 PM
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FYI. Im still trying to save my pennies to get your 17 WSM to show case this to customers. You know, bring em up to my ranch and let them try it? I
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  #39  
Old 10-17-2019, 9:55 PM
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Franklin Armory is really working to help all you guys out. Good for them for working around the laws and getting you guys stuff you've been wanting.
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  #40  
Old 11-01-2019, 4:02 PM
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I wanted to ask if any of you have seen this before:

"Important Notice: The DROS Entry System (DES) will be down for maintenance from 11:55 PM on Saturday, November 2, 2019 to 5:00 AM on Sunday, November 3, 2019. Please contact the Customer Support Center at 855-365-3767 or via e-mail at bofdes@doj.ca.gov during normal business hours if you have any questions or comments concerning the DES."

Is this normal, or are they actually moving forward?

Our attorneys have been pushing on their end, and reports concluded that CADOJ was going to change it. The question is when? Maybe we will find out Sunday. ....or maybe this is a common notice.
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