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2nd Amend. Litigation Updates & Legal Discussion Discuss California 2A related litigation and legal topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 03-29-2014, 12:32 PM
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Default Report on Microstamping

For those that are interested, Ginny Simone recently did a story on the effect of microstamping requirements in California. It is linked as a featured video on www.CalGunLaws.com.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDUg4E0UAbE

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Old 03-29-2014, 12:40 PM
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Politicians don't care that microstamping makes no sense. They just like seeing that semi-auto handguns are going to be difficult if not impossible to purchase in this socialist state.
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Old 03-29-2014, 12:40 PM
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Kewl!
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Old 03-29-2014, 1:07 PM
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I cant wait to see the roster fall!
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Old 03-29-2014, 1:24 PM
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Thanx for posting this.
They should have mentioned that even the inventor says it is not ready for mass production and needs more development to be workable.
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Old 03-29-2014, 1:25 PM
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The plan is simple - require a technology that is impossible to be 100% consistent, then set the testing requirements higher than anyone can acheive. Eliminate SSE. After 5 years = no new guns available in CA.

The only question really is, how far must the roster shrink before out lawsuits win?
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Old 03-29-2014, 1:43 PM
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Default Good stuff!

Pretty much what we've been saying all along. Sadly, this report will be ignored or dismissed as "propaganda from the evil NRA". It's as if the source of criticism doesn't matter to gun grabbers. You had SME's in the form of a gun manufacturer, a sheriff, a forensic scientist, and a criminal telling you it's a bad idea. These people (along with us) know quite a bit about firearms, yet our voices are suppressed/ignored.
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Old 03-29-2014, 5:15 PM
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Fine Video
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Old 03-29-2014, 5:52 PM
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Originally Posted by ElDub1950 View Post
The plan is simple - require a technology that is impossible to be 100% consistent, then set the testing requirements higher than anyone can acheive. Eliminate SSE. After 5 years = no new guns available in CA.

The only question really is, how far must the roster shrink before out lawsuits win?
sounds like you hit the nail square on its head

I've never understood why any of our Constitutional rights are governed by the very institution they were put in place to protect us from
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Old 03-29-2014, 6:01 PM
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How long will it take to require that rifles and shotguns for purchase be on their own "approved" roster?
After that I can see the statist politicians calling for ALL transfers of ANY firearms to be subject to some roster. No exceptions, no family transfers, no inheritance firearms, and "grandfathered" anything. Of course LE will remain to be exempt.
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Old 03-30-2014, 8:30 AM
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Great video, I wish they hadn't labeled it NRA report. As soon as the normal community member with anti leanings sees NRA they shut down.
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Old 03-30-2014, 8:47 AM
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I've never understood why any of our Constitutional rights are governed by the very institution they were put in place to protect us from
Sig worthy!

Could not agree more.
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I've never understood why any of our Constitutional rights are governed by the very institution they were put in place to protect us from.
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It is not wise to create criminals where none exist. Especially when those newly-minted criminals may or may not be heavily armed with guns you know nothing about.
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Old 03-30-2014, 8:54 AM
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We all agree it's psuedo science and nothing more than a gun grab but my question is what are we going to do about it? Is there a pending lawsuit to overturn it or do we have to have that done legislatively? With the dumbocrat super majority going the way of the dinosaur, it might be easier.
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Old 03-30-2014, 8:56 AM
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I believe it was incorporated into the pending roster lawsuit. IIRC.
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I've never understood why any of our Constitutional rights are governed by the very institution they were put in place to protect us from.
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It is not wise to create criminals where none exist. Especially when those newly-minted criminals may or may not be heavily armed with guns you know nothing about.
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"Men, we are surrounded by the enemy. That means we have the greatest opportunity ever presented to an army. We can attack in any direction we choose."
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Old 03-30-2014, 9:14 AM
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Originally Posted by TeddyBallgame View Post
I've never understood why any of our Constitutional rights are governed by the very institution they were put in place to protect us from
We are 'protected' from out Gov't institutions based on 'voting' - the achilles heel of a Democracy and our Constitutional Republic. As early as the 1850s people argued that if the Constitution could produce such a result (as there was in the mid-1800s US Gov't), then the Constitution was critically flawed. Seems so, 150+ years later. (Don't ask what said people suggested as the replacement, I personally don't know.)
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Old 03-30-2014, 3:19 PM
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Originally Posted by epilepticninja View Post
Politicians don't care that microstamping makes no sense. They just like seeing that semi-auto handguns are going to be difficult if not impossible to purchase in this socialist state.
Yep. The Roster was conceived as a wide-reaching ban of pistols for the common man cleverly disguised as a safety regime so as to (they hoped) pass constitutional review by the judiciary. But they've take it too far with micro-stamping and lifted the veil of safety to reveal its anti-constitutional intent as a ban.
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Not wasting any more time and energy tilting, Don Quixote-like, on a regulatory problem that, constitutionally, should not even exist in a free state.
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Last edited by advocatusdiaboli; 03-30-2014 at 3:22 PM..
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Old 03-30-2014, 7:41 PM
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Originally Posted by epilepticninja View Post
Politicians don't care that microstamping makes no sense. They just like seeing that semi-auto handguns are going to be difficult if not impossible to purchase in this socialist state.
true, but they do care about getting elected. the more people who are educated about this, the better the chances of them at least backing away from the issue.
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Old 03-30-2014, 9:15 PM
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I am feeling iffy about us becoming victorious in a bear case. But when it comes to Pena, I really don't see how this will be upheld. The roster is going to fail and I will laugh when I am shooting my accushadow.


Also, doesn't every gun already have it's on unique signature? I thought they can match up a shell casing to the exact gun.
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Old 03-30-2014, 9:30 PM
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true, but they do care about getting elected. the more people who are educated about this, the better the chances of them at least backing away from the issue.
Most of the voters believe in smart guns and micro-stamping because they are afraid of guns and politicians tell them they are a solution for more safety. They will be encourage d to vote for them—the opposite of what you think. I know it seems bizarre, but that is California politics where illegal alien gang members are given sanctuary from being deported.
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Not wasting any more time and energy tilting, Don Quixote-like, on a regulatory problem that, constitutionally, should not even exist in a free state.
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Old 03-30-2014, 9:42 PM
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The plan is simple - require a technology that is impossible to be 100% consistent, then set the testing requirements higher than anyone can acheive. Eliminate SSE. After 5 years = no new guns available in CA.
I'm ok with this seeing as I have no right to bear arms due to a 5250 over ten years ago. Never been in jail, no speeding tickets no nothing just got put in a mental hospital and bam no more legal guns for life.



Why should other people have a legal gun and I can't? Doesn't seem safe to me. I don't want other people having guns when I can't have them either.


And I think the gun people honestly brought this upon themselves because they are so clanish, & so submissive in regards to having the ability to tell the government no when the government makes these heavy handed demands and not just demands on gun people , taxes , regulations etc.

We all need to accept a modicum of responsibility for how this government is... lets not pass the buck lets look in the mirror shall we?
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Old 03-30-2014, 9:43 PM
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Also, doesn't every gun already have it's on unique signature? I thought they can match up a shell casing to the exact gun.
Not at all. Even the best matches of the bullets, lands and grooves rifling patterns, aren't fully reliable. Shell casings give little clue unless there is an anomaly with the firing pin, chamber, or ejector. That or the sizing/shape of the case is custom.

Don't believe anything on CSI or other Hollywood—most of those writers don't know a Sig from a Paintball gun.
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Not wasting any more time and energy tilting, Don Quixote-like, on a regulatory problem that, constitutionally, should not even exist in a free state.
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Gone fishin' for now and soon gone from California.
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Old 03-30-2014, 9:57 PM
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Originally Posted by lordofthevault View Post
I'm ok with this seeing as I have no right to bear arms due to a 5250 over ten years ago. Never been in jail, no speeding tickets no nothing just got put in a mental hospital and bam no more legal guns for life.



Why should other people have a legal gun and I can't? Doesn't seem safe to me. I don't want other people having guns when I can't have them either.


And I think the gun people honestly brought this upon themselves because they are so clanish, & so submissive in regards to having the ability to tell the government no when the government makes these heavy handed demands and not just demands on gun people , taxes , regulations etc.

We all need to accept a modicum of responsibility for how this government is... lets not pass the buck lets look in the mirror shall we?
Sorry you had medical problems that resulted in legal issues.

That said, your opinion that others should be allowed to own guns only because you can't is short sighted and ultimately selfish.

If you really feel that way, why the hell are you on a gun forum?
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Old 03-30-2014, 10:02 PM
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Originally Posted by lordofthevault View Post
I'm ok with this seeing as I have no right to bear arms due to a 5250 over ten years ago. Never been in jail, no speeding tickets no nothing just got put in a mental hospital and bam no more legal guns for life.



Why should other people have a legal gun and I can't? Doesn't seem safe to me. I don't want other people having guns when I can't have them either.


And I think the gun people honestly brought this upon themselves because they are so clanish, & so submissive in regards to having the ability to tell the government no when the government makes these heavy handed demands and not just demands on gun people , taxes , regulations etc.

We all need to accept a modicum of responsibility for how this government is... lets not pass the buck lets look in the mirror shall we?
https://www.google.com/search?q=gun+...ntrol%20forums


You're wasting your time here.

And honestly, after reading your posts, I'm glad you can't buy a gun legally.
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Old 03-30-2014, 11:18 PM
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Why should other people have a legal gun and I can't? Doesn't seem safe to me. I don't want other people having guns when I can't have them either.
I agree. Why should good athletes be allowed to play football and make a lot of money when I cannot. It should be banned.

Why should people be allowed to start business like Google and get rich when I don't? Ban them.

Why should people be allowed to choose a religion, I don't want? Ban them.

The list can go on...and on...and on.

why should anyone have rights or enjoy liberties I don't or cannot? You should read up on Mao Tse-Tung. You'd love his world view: make everyone alike as much as possible.
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Not wasting any more time and energy tilting, Don Quixote-like, on a regulatory problem that, constitutionally, should not even exist in a free state.
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Old 03-31-2014, 5:35 AM
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Great video, I wish they hadn't labeled it NRA report. As soon as the normal community member with anti leanings sees NRA they shut down.
I tend to agree with you, but the reality is it doesn't matter.

The people who want to get rid of our firearms, want to get rid of them no matter what. They don't care [b]who[/b shows them data as to why their plan is impossible or otherwise.

Sure, when they see NRA they do freak out and go "OMG NRA SEE THEY'RE CRAZY!" and "shut down," but the reality is they were "shut down" before they saw the NRA stuff in the first place. They act like they're reasonable, like they're listening to your argument and data being presented, but the reality is they have no inclination to change their mind no matter who shows them data opposing their view.

It's akin to a KKK member saying, "I'm not racist, I have black friends!"

It's completely disingenuous and their actions speak louder than their words.
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Old 03-31-2014, 10:42 AM
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Thanx for posting this.
They should have mentioned that even the inventor says it is not ready for mass production and needs more development to be workable.
They did.
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Old 03-31-2014, 10:45 AM
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We all agree it's psuedo science and nothing more than a gun grab but my question is what are we going to do about it? Is there a pending lawsuit to overturn it or do we have to have that done legislatively? With the dumbocrat super majority going the way of the dinosaur, it might be easier.
The super-majority is gone now that Yee, Calderon and Wright have been suspended. We just need to insure that it stays gone.
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Old 03-31-2014, 10:48 AM
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Also, doesn't every gun already have it's on unique signature? I thought they can match up a shell casing to the exact gun.
You watch too much CSI. Fire 500 rounds at the range and the markings left behind will change. And some guns all leave the same markings when they leave the factory .
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Old 03-31-2014, 10:51 AM
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You watch too much CSI. Fire 500 rounds at the range and the markings left behind will change. And some guns all leave the same markings when they leave the factory .
And my reloads have been through who knows how many different guns. Yay for range brass
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Old 03-31-2014, 11:33 AM
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And my reloads have been through who knows how many different guns. Yay for range brass
That's one of the reason micro-stamping is DOA: are you a perp and want to dilute and distract homicide investigation resources? Drop a hand full of range brass from different firearms at a crime scene and make sure you filed yours of your firing pin.

Only an anti-gun zealot would love this idea because it simply makes firearms much more expensive, reduces the number of vendors selling them and model available in CA, potentially wastes police resources harassing innocent pistol owners, does nothing to prevent gun crime nor help solve it, and yet obscures the infringing intent just enough with that veil of the promise of safety to (they hope) pass court muster.
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Not wasting any more time and energy tilting, Don Quixote-like, on a regulatory problem that, constitutionally, should not even exist in a free state.
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Old 03-31-2014, 4:23 PM
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Originally Posted by epilepticninja View Post
Politicians don't care that microstamping makes no sense. They just like seeing that semi-auto handguns are going to be difficult if not impossible to purchase legally in this socialist state.
FTFY
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Old 04-01-2014, 12:55 PM
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That's one of the reason micro-stamping is DOA: are you a perp and want to dilute and distract homicide investigation resources? Drop a hand full of range brass from different firearms at a crime scene and make sure you filed yours of your firing pin.

Only an anti-gun zealot would love this idea because it simply makes firearms much more expensive, reduces the number of vendors selling them and model available in CA, potentially wastes police resources harassing innocent pistol owners, does nothing to prevent gun crime nor help solve it, and yet obscures the infringing intent just enough with that veil of the promise of safety to (they hope) pass court muster.
a grand example of why microstamping will not accomplish anything near what would be expected...could you start to imagine the cost and resources that LE agencies would have to utilize, in order to clear people, just because a spent case that was once their property was found at a crime scene...imagine what 100 different spent casings would do to an investigation

even if the technology could be perfected, which it is not, defeating it would not only be an easy task, but, done in the correct fashion, this same technology could have valuable resources and time from LE agencies all going in the wrong direction...simply put, even the least informed criminal can defeat this technology effortlessly
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Old 04-01-2014, 1:52 PM
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Nice job on the video. Informative and to the point.
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Old 04-05-2014, 2:55 PM
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With microstamping now being imposed can someone point me to the DOJ test procedure for validating a manufacturers implementation? How many rounds does a gun manufacturer have to fire? How many "failures" are they allowed? How many samples of a given handgun do they have to test? What about cases that have already been fired; do the manufacturers have to run tests on these as well.

I'm assuming it's not enough to inspect the micro-stamped firing pin since other aspect of the gun system must determine the quality of the mark on the case. Oh, and these tests need to be run at least on all three common case metals (steel, brass, aluminum).

In order to have what I would call a verification procedure the DOJ must have acquired and modified a number of handguns with microstamping and proofed their procedure. I'm a brand new handgun owner, but looking at available information there isn't much evidence that such an infrastructure exists. Am I missing something?
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Old 04-05-2014, 3:22 PM
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^ There are many threads on this topic.
It just plain is not ready or available yet, despite CA AG Kamala Harris' opinion.
You're not missing anything.
And, you are smarter than our legislature and the AG.
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Old 04-05-2014, 3:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ojisan View Post
And, you are smarter than our legislature and the AG.
The majority of the legislature might not be very smart, but they know a cause they can ride to re-election with a constituency this ignorant and afraid of firearms.

Harris is somewhat smarter. She knows better but she is power hungry and, like the corrupt Leland Yee, will use the fear of guns in the electorate for her own political ascendance and profit. this is about the corrupt gaining and holding on to power at any cost, with any lie and injustice justified in their minds by their own selfish ends. It is not about the safety of the people.
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Not wasting any more time and energy tilting, Don Quixote-like, on a regulatory problem that, constitutionally, should not even exist in a free state.
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Old 04-14-2014, 9:24 AM
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This law has nothing to do with catching criminals.

Micro stamping if implemented gives them the beach head to further micro control and regulate pistols. Once we have micro stamping pistols then next

It would then be a felony to deface the micro stamp.

Laws would then pass requiring gun owners to have their micro stamped pistols inspected every year to insure they were not defaced. If your micro stamped pistol is found to be defaced or is not working correctly your gun will be confiscated and you will be fined or arrested. DOJ will be allowed to hold guns for testing and inspection for up to 30 days.

Laws would then be passed making it unlawful for gun owners to sell their brass or leave brass at gun ranges

Then laws would pass requiring gun owners to stamp all their brass before they shoot it and destroy it after firing it within 24 hours. All ammo or brass can only be purchased or transferred through an FFL if not destroyed.

Then If your brass is found at a crime scene you will be criminally liable and open to civil damages.

Oh yeah and because some crimes are committed with rifle a law will be passed including rifles with all the above restrictions



That is why Ruger and others are leaving the Ca. market...its a Pandora's box.
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Last edited by Warrior King; 04-14-2014 at 10:24 AM..
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Old 04-14-2014, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by advocatusdiaboli View Post
The majority of the legislature might not be very smart, but they know a cause they can ride to re-election with a constituency this ignorant and afraid of firearms.

Harris is somewhat smarter. She knows better but she is power hungry and, like the corrupt Leland Yee, will use the fear of guns in the electorate for her own political ascendance and profit. this is about the corrupt gaining and holding on to power at any cost, with any lie and injustice justified in their minds by their own selfish ends. It is not about the safety of the people.
The real way to get inoculated on gun control is to get rid of term limits. Pro Politicians that are comfortable and like the gravy train are more afraid of well funded special interests groups like the NRA and Calguns....they dont like to make waves and they get comfortable, and they love lobbyist money from people like Ruger etc.
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Old 04-25-2014, 10:48 AM
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it'll all change the first time cops are forced to pick up all their spent brass from a training exercise.

those micro-engraved cases could be used to ... well... i think everyone knows the potiential here...
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Old 04-27-2014, 4:08 PM
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Good video.

I am surprised, however, to not see rifeling on a bullet talked about as the already existing proven version of "micro stampting". Neither prooves who fired the pistol, both can demonstrate the weapon was fired, only one is consistent & proven & reliable. So not sure why another "con" to the list of cons of MS is.. we already have balstics tests that reliably can tie a bullet to a pistol - but nothing can tie it to a shooter. Certainly not easy to defeat MS.
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