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Optics, Mounts, Rails and Sights If it aims your firearm, post about it here. |
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#161
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Actually, I only recently fired the VP9, and I can say that the only comparison between the VP9 and the SR9 is that there is no comparison. HK makes a superlative product to Ruger if there is a comparable product. So, if it is all labor cost, they've got a hell of a lot better workers.
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#162
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#165
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I'm comparing their USP compact v7 in .40s&w, which I did NOT like, to say, a S&W M&P. That's about a 30% savings.
Or, if you like, the MR556a1 ($2,700) to the Ruger SR-556 at half the cost. If you want an apples to apples (ruger isn't a piston gun), then the LMT CQBPS16 is roughly 2/3 the cost of the HK. ($1,800 vs $2,700). Part of it IS quality, but not as much as you might think. Marketing budgets and cost of labor are huge costs of production. A lot of HK's early weapons were cheap stamped guns like the G3...which were much more expensive than the CETME, which is basically the same gun. Labor costs in Spain were way lower than Germany... That's a true apples-to-apples comparison. |
#166
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Yeah, the MP5 was really a dud. Have you actually shot a HK 416?
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#167
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Their recent carbines, not so much...their UMP was crap: Insanely overpriced, poorly made (at least initially), and heavy as sin for a polymer-framed gun (weighed more than some full-sized MP5 variants). Civilian models were front-heavy, and finicky to the point of being unreliable, or at least, the two I shot were. As for the HK 416, no, I haven't shot it. But honestly, a piston AR is a piston AR once you get past a certain level of quality. In any case, I think we've drifted pretty far off topic. The original point was that the more expensive optics are *in part* more expensive because of labor costs and marketing budgets, and in part, because people are willing to pay for a name that may or may not be worth it. If I had an unlimited budget, it'd be aimpoint all the way for RDS. I don't, so I have to settle for the re-branded holosuns (albeit with slightly different design specs and higher QC requirements). But a fancy schmancy reticle-switching gimmick doesn't make it an aimpoint either. |
#168
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This fooking thread will nevahz die...
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#169
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Oh I agree. I was just using those 3 as examples. |
#170
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Next thing you know, you will be telling us the only difference between a PA and an aimpoint is the labor costs.
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#171
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I actually have one of these, and if you haven't noticed I've been an advocate for them in this thread. For Christ's sake Kestryll, the dude who runs this shop, told everyone here to be more civil, and if they couldn't to keep out. All was well and you opened the wound back up. You want this thread to go well then just stay out. |
#172
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Meanwhile my Suunto, hamilton, oris, and Omega are plugging right along. It isn't always in the name. I have an aimpoint ML2, among with a 3 vortex RDS. Personally, i see no functional difference between them. The all have been consistant performers for quite a few years at this point.
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#173
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Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk |
#174
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Go and post on the utube link. I have no affiliations with them... but might kill the sub 200 price point. Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk |
#175
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Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk |
#176
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Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk |
#177
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Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk |
#179
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I think the floating reticle is the biggest difference but I wouldn't call that a good thing.
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#181
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In fairness, he's correct to a degree; however, he seems to be looking manufacturing labor rate. The other significant cost of labor is that real optics require good engineers. Engineers are not cheap. Engineering and high precision manufacturing is very expensive. The truth is that a lot of the best stuff is designed under government contracts because the development costs are so high. It's actually nice to have nations' tax dollars to subsidize the gear. Inevitably, some Chinese factories can copy the real stuff to try to replicate designs. For small timers using cheap third world labor, they simply will not come up with anything of real technological innovation. When you demand such high precision, you can't really fabricate a product and get lucky. Free lunches are never free.
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#182
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If you took the aimpoint design, and manufactured it in a place with cheaper production labor (but employed a high-quality QC dept), ditched the marketing budget, and made a few other business (not manufacturing) efficiency changes, you could get the cost of an aimpoint down quite a bit. They would sell more, too, at least initially. The problem, though, from their point of view, is that it wouldn't really net them the same profit, since all of those costs they are saving aren't going to get offset by additional revenue/profit. If anything, the luxury brand effect comes into play (lower the cost of expensive champagne, and people will buy LESS of it), plus you lose brand recognition when you don't fuel your marketing budget. Aimpoint prices their gear the way they do because it maximizes their profit and meets their other goals (keeping their countrymen employed). HK's marketing budget is almost certainly proportionally much larger than other comparable gun manufacturers. You pay for that when you buy their products. Holosun has taken a different (low-cost) track in trying to market its products (social media, creating a sense of ownership with beta testers [I mean, early customers], partnerships with vendors like PA, etc...). That helps lower the cost of their products. It's not all of the difference. It probably isn't even accounting for half of the price difference. It IS probably a bigger difference than most folks here appreciate. Then you factor in unfavorable exchange rates, labor costs, cost of design (which holosun is cutting by their rapid development and feedback from customers rather than using traditional engineering/design cycles), and a bunch of other smaller issues, you end up with a cheaper optic. I don't think anyone except the OP here is claiming that these optics are even in the same quality tier. I'm just suggesting that just because the sight costs 1/3 as much, doesn't mean that they cut 2/3 off the manufacturing quality and design process. There are other ways to get efficiencies. As for technological innovation, I wouldn't say it's impossible, I just think it's unlikely that the innovation would be in the area of basic science or new technologies. Innovation, CAN, however come out of combinations of existing technologies or designs that haven't been put together, or that haven't been applied in a certain way before. |
#183
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Have you ever physically inspected, fired or even touched any of the G3 family of weapons? They are some of the finest weapons ever made. "Cheaply stamped" It's amazing what you can read on the internet |
#184
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Not to mention you can get the NCStar in red or green. Where is your god now Aimpoint?
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#185
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#186
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What about the PPQ in .40S&W? It's made in Germany and it's only about $30 more then the M&P. That would be apple to apples.
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#187
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#188
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As for the G3, no, I don't generally get to play with full-auto toys, and HK hasn't been very friendly about releasing civilian variants of their weapons for the public to purchase. I HAVE seen what it does to brass, where it's controls are located, and the price tag. By the way, the word "just" was not in my original post. You are inserting a tone that wasn't in the original. I wasn't trash talking the G3. I was saying that an almost identical rifle (made by practically the same design team), manufactured in a different country, was much cheaper, and that the manufacturing costs vs "retail" prices were more on par for weapons that had forged/milled receivers, which are more expensive to produce (though not necessarily better performers...). |
#189
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Have you ever even seen a gun in real life or do you just play with them on COD? A UZI us a fine gun? If that's a fine gun, just what would you consider a POS?
UZI and a G family platform aren't even in the same hemisphere of quality. Perhaps you should just stop posting while you are behind. |
#190
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Why? If we are grading on effort and creativity, his posts are of superlative quality.
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#191
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#192
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Do they jam on COD? As I indicated in several posts, their products are exceptional (as have others)...have been for quite a while, and I have never played COD, so I am way behind the curve. I do know that some of my guns are good because folks at the range have recognized them from COD, and told me they are awesome guns. So, heck, I let them shoot them in real life for them to assess them for me.
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#193
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I must confess, I am talking out of my ars about COD. My experience with COD is limited to internet MEMEs and Youtube clips. |
#194
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OK, now that you are all getting silly,
1. The CETME predates the G3, it isn't a "knockoff." If anything, the G3 is a slightly updated version of the CETME. 2. The original Uzi (not talking about the micro/mini/etc... with their jam-o-matic rates of fire) was a revolutionary weapon in its time. Aside from some problems with dirt/dust (hello? open bolt anyone?), it was considered reliable enough to be the most produced/sold SMG for about 3 decades worldwide, including the US Secret Service. It must be a complete POS like the AK, since so many were made. (What exactly about the Uzi makes you say it is a POS? Are we talking about one of those Rhodesian-manufactured ones, or IMI?) 3. If HK guns are so reliable, then why was my HK USP compact jamming with multiple brands of factory ammo out of the box? It wasn't me limp-wristing either, since one of the instructors at the range I frequented in those days was getting stovepipes and what about the frequent copper jacket gouges/scratches from the feed ramp? Had lots of fun getting that POS broken in. I'm not slamming all HK's. I suspect I had an unusual lemon, but I just don't choose to partake of the HK fandom. I couldn't tell you much about COD either, I don't own a game console manufactured in the last 10 years. You know what? I'm done with this thread, since we've moved so far past holosun, that it's not really worth it anymore. It's become more about ad-hominem attacks, and less about the actual points that were being made re: manufacturing costs and optics. It's a pitty, since if you guys had stayed a little more on topic, you probably would have had a lot to contribute. Say what you like at this point, but I am done with this thread. |
#197
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The liberal see's the glass as half full and tries to take more. The conservative see's glass as half empty and tries to keep it that way. I'm with the people on the side just pouring water in the glass trying to get a drink! |
#198
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Thanks you☺ might want to wait till they come out with the ones built with customer feedback... but the original ones are 160ish now if you like them I do . the solar one looks like a cool idea to never worry about a battery ☺
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#199
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Well I have am old crappy AK and I have an old crappy aimpoint that sits on it. Maybe when I pick up my really cool bushmaster 208 xm10 I'll get a really cool holoSun the OP here is ridiculous.
Last edited by sportDogger; 03-15-2015 at 1:06 AM.. |
#200
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Do you read what you write? Because you have kestryll sticking up for you, you keep trying to throw your dumb little comments in. Aimpoint is worth 3x the price for one simple reason.... they work. How many rounds do you have under your holosin? How many times has it been dropoed? I'm not taking about stupid 50 yards under water bur real life banging around while you are doing shooting courses. You can claim it's a good range toy that is fine but to act like it's a real tool is not. BTW you'll probably end up needing that lifetime warranty at least every year ... over 30k rounds under my aimpoint comp m2 and only thing I've had go wrong with it is my knob finally fell of recently while I was running it in a crazy rifle course on my AK.
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