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  #1  
Old 12-09-2018, 1:46 PM
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Default Precision rifle loading, process question (not processing)

I have a 700 5r in .308 that i am taking baby steps with.

I use lapua brass, 175smks, 4064 powder. Im at 42.2 as a nice grouping load.

I dont yet have an annealer, but after the first of the year that will change. I will anneal every firing when that happens.

So i neck size/ deprime with redding competition dies on a rockchucker

trim with a wilson sinclair,

Chamfer and deburr and run a hand primer pocket cleaner

Tumble

Prime with a lee hand held, the square tray model

Charge

Seat with a redding micrometer seater

I want to streamline my powder operation, if possible.

I have a lyman 1200 electronic scale-dispenser. I set it to dispense 41.5, then set it on auto repeat, which throws the next charge when the pan is replaced.

Previously, i just ran the lyman and charged with the result, but i dont think its as accurate as it pretends it is.

So now I run a charge, dump the pan into a lyman/ohaus M5 that is dead accurate, set at 42.2. I trickle to the exact charge weight, then dump that pan into the next case.

The lyman is slow, but it generally beeps that its done throwing when i am still trickling, or dumping the charge into the case.

I did about 140 rounds last night, and never had to wait for the trickler.

Seems like the only way to speed up would be to change to a precision poweder measure and not weigh each round. Not sure if that will yield good results.

Thoughts on my process and streamlining it?

Im not impatient, just trying to streamline where possible.

Thanks.
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Old 12-09-2018, 3:41 PM
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https://www.autotrickler.com/auto-trickler.html
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  #3  
Old 12-09-2018, 3:42 PM
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Speed & accuracy

https://youtu.be/ZgUa8DjLMSk

J-Cat beat me by a minute
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Old 12-09-2018, 10:56 PM
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I do the same except throw light with a standard powder measure.
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Old 12-10-2018, 8:38 AM
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Tumbling after the trim/chamfer/deburr isnít necessary unless you want pretty brass. Do you really need to anneal after every firing? Seems like youíre not working the brass much by only neck sizing, which is what makes it brittle. And like what Jager said, just dump the charges from a volumetric measure, will go a bit faster.
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Old 12-10-2018, 9:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Citadelgrad87 View Post
Seems like the only way to speed up would be to change to a precision poweder measure and not weigh each round. Not sure if that will yield good results.
I have yet to find a measure that will consistently throw charges within about +/- 0.3 grains. Even my Chargemaster will occasionally be off that much (though it's less often than a straight powder measure.) Granted, 0.3 grains isn't exactly way off, but I try to eliminate powder as a factor by getting charges as close as I can. In order, from most to least consistent 1) RCBS CM, 2) Lee Classic (at least when new - they wear pretty quickly, but are cheap to replace), 3) whatever model of Harrell I ended up with, and 4) Hornady. I weigh and adjust all bolt rifle charges on a scientific scale.

I will add that here are a lot of very good shooters who charge straight from a measure. I guess you'll have to figure out what works for you.
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Old 12-10-2018, 9:53 AM
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Originally Posted by 17+1 View Post
Tumbling after the trim/chamfer/deburr isnít necessary unless you want pretty brass. Do you really need to anneal after every firing? Seems like youíre not working the brass much by only neck sizing, which is what makes it brittle. And like what Jager said, just dump the charges from a volumetric measure, will go a bit faster.
I have read that neck tension is much more uniform if you anneal after each firing, and i have read that guys are getting 40 firings out of doing so.

I figure if i have the machine, this seems like a worthwhile step.
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Old 12-10-2018, 10:39 AM
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So, I read a few things:

#1 you don;t have a functional problem with your loads (or else you would have complained)

#2 your quesiton is about streamlining the process (I interpret that as you want to go faster)

#3 you anticipated the obvious answer which is "get a second powder dispenser", by saying it's not your bottleneck.

My answer: yes it is. Because now you are verifying each charge, which is why you are not waiting for the auto-dispenser. This is also killing your productivity.

--------------------------

Here are my bulletized suggestions for productivity.

#1 trust your power dispenser. By this, I don;t mean trust what you already have, I mean do what you need to do to trust your dispenser. If that means replacing with a chargemaster, or sartorius, or modifying the trickler tube, or whatever. This is your #1 productivity killer. Figure out how to eliminate the verification step. That will speed you up the most right now.

#2 Once you figure out #1, double up. You already expected this answer. Once you fix the powder dispensing, you'll be held up by it. Double up.

#3 trimming. Lathe type trimmers are great for their versatility, but suck for productivity. I can;t do without a lathe type trimmer. But for cartridges I am serious about loading for, I use a WFT chucked up in my 10-22 lathe. Then burr and chamfer with an RCBS tool also chucked in the lathe. It is fast. Really fast. You can figure out how it's best for you. I think the WFT may not be the great productivity solution if using a handheld drill, but you'll just have to figure it out. WFT no matter what is better than your wilson sinclair. Maybe you'll prefer a giraud, I don;t know.

4. Progressive. This will help speed you up lots. use either an thru powder expander or lee charge die with a funnel, and dump the auto-dispense powder through the die.

5. Cleaning. This one is less productivity because you can run it overnight. But it can still bottleneck you.

6. case feeding. This slows you down more than you think, especially when you are already feeding bullets and powder. This one is cheaper and easier to implement than a bullet feeder, which I don't think you can do so easy for a 308.

This should get you darn fast, darn quick.

------------------------------------

Here's a process that can get you going super fast (not the fastest, but high quality)

1. used cases go on the progressive via case feeder, toolhead has a universal decapper and nothing else.

2. bin gets dumped into the tumbler. clean. Lube.

3. Cases go back into the progressive for sizing. Dump back into tumbler if desired for lube cleaning. Or not.

4. trim, deburr, anneal. Lots of room for productivity here.

5. Back on the progressive with a toolhead for priming, chargin, seating.

6. profit.

You can do it much faster, but this gets you tumbled brass, clean primer pockets, trimmed and annealed when needed or wanted, and is a totally batch process until you trim and anneal. And if you use an anneleze, the only non-batch process is the trimming.

Just add whatever listed capability you want for productivity as you see fit based on what step of the reloading process you find a chore. For me, it's trimming and charging. Everything else for me is a joy.
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Old 12-10-2018, 10:40 AM
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FYI I can load 243 winchester on a progressive press for an RPR with excellent results.
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Old 12-10-2018, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiterabbit View Post
So, I read a few things:

#1 you don;t have a functional problem with your loads (or else you would have complained)

#2 your quesiton is about streamlining the process (I interpret that as you want to go faster)

#3 you anticipated the obvious answer which is "get a second powder dispenser", by saying it's not your bottleneck.

My answer: yes it is. Because now you are verifying each charge, which is why you are not waiting for the auto-dispenser. This is also killing your productivity.

--------------------------

Here are my bulletized suggestions for productivity.

#1 trust your power dispenser. By this, I don;t mean trust what you already have, I mean do what you need to do to trust your dispenser. If that means replacing with a chargemaster, or sartorius, or modifying the trickler tube, or whatever. This is your #1 productivity killer. Figure out how to eliminate the verification step. That will speed you up the most right now.

#2 Once you figure out #1, double up. You already expected this answer. Once you fix the powder dispensing, you'll be held up by it. Double up.

#3 trimming. Lathe type trimmers are great for their versatility, but suck for productivity. I can;t do without a lathe type trimmer. But for cartridges I am serious about loading for, I use a WFT chucked up in my 10-22 lathe. Then burr and chamfer with an RCBS tool also chucked in the lathe. It is fast. Really fast. You can figure out how it's best for you. I think the WFT may not be the great productivity solution if using a handheld drill, but you'll just have to figure it out. WFT no matter what is better than your wilson sinclair. Maybe you'll prefer a giraud, I don;t know.

4. Progressive. This will help speed you up lots. use either an thru powder expander or lee charge die with a funnel, and dump the auto-dispense powder through the die.

5. Cleaning. This one is less productivity because you can run it overnight. But it can still bottleneck you.

6. case feeding. This slows you down more than you think, especially when you are already feeding bullets and powder. This one is cheaper and easier to implement than a bullet feeder, which I don't think you can do so easy for a 308.

This should get you darn fast, darn quick.

------------------------------------

Here's a process that can get you going super fast (not the fastest, but high quality)

1. used cases go on the progressive via case feeder, toolhead has a universal decapper and nothing else.

2. bin gets dumped into the tumbler. clean. Lube.

3. Cases go back into the progressive for sizing. Dump back into tumbler if desired for lube cleaning. Or not.

4. trim, deburr, anneal. Lots of room for productivity here.

5. Back on the progressive with a toolhead for priming, chargin, seating.

6. profit.

You can do it much faster, but this gets you tumbled brass, clean primer pockets, trimmed and annealed when needed or wanted, and is a totally batch process until you trim and anneal. And if you use an anneleze, the only non-batch process is the trimming.

Just add whatever listed capability you want for productivity as you see fit based on what step of the reloading process you find a chore. For me, it's trimming and charging. Everything else for me is a joy.
Thanks very much for taking the time to type all that, i appreciate it.

I need to chew on it.

I have a dillon 550, so i dont think a case feeder is in my future.

Off to research.
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  #11  
Old 12-10-2018, 1:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Citadelgrad87 View Post
I want to streamline my powder operation, if possible.

I have a lyman 1200 electronic scale-dispenser. I set it to dispense 41.5, then set it on auto repeat, which throws the next charge when the pan is replaced.

I run a charge, dump the pan into a lyman/ohaus M5 that is dead accurate, set at 42.2. I trickle to the exact charge weight, then dump that pan into the next case.
No sense in running the lyman dispenser if you are going to trickle to final weight.
Just use a regular powder measure.

Play with the measure and see what the SD is over say 20 charges.
Then set the measure to throw a weight that is 0.1gr less than the SD from your target weight so that you never throw a charge from the powder measure OVER your target weight and only need to trickle the smallest amount of powder to hit your exact final charge weight.
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Old 12-10-2018, 2:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Citadelgrad87 View Post
I have read that neck tension is much more uniform if you anneal after each firing, and i have read that guys are getting 40 firings out of doing so.

I figure if i have the machine, this seems like a worthwhile step.
From another thread:

Be data driven. Don't sheeple along. If you can, find someone who has an annealer and do your own testing. doesn't have to be big either. Take some 1x brass, 2x brass, and annealed brass. Even 3x brass if you can. Let's say 10 rounds each, 40 rounds for a fun day at the range. Shoot four targets, using random selection for each round. (don't round-robin shoot, and definitely done shoot all 1 of one, all 10 of the next, etc)

If there is not a clear trend or difference, don't anneal every time. Waste of your resources.

You could make reloading 10 times more complicated than you already are, BR shooters already do. But do you need to? Chances are, you'll never see it on your target. But data would tell you for sure. For them, it probably did.
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Old 12-10-2018, 2:05 PM
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I have yet to find a measure that will consistently throw charges within about +/- 0.3 grains. Even my Chargemaster will occasionally be off that much (though it's less often than a straight powder measure.)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/RCBS-Charge...-/192463548196

It works.

You will still throw over 0.3. Just less often. ANother great thing about dual chargemasters is when one throws 0.1 over, just dump and use the other throw. That keeps you +/- 0.1 gr (aka limit of the scale).
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Old 12-10-2018, 2:06 PM
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+2 on the fx120i. You cannot get much quicker than it and be able to measure down to the kernel of powder. A single kernel of powder can range from .02 to .04 gr depending on the powder. H4350 is pretty consistent at .02 gr but does have some longer sticks in there.

Without going down the rabbit hole too much, the fx120i is well worth it

Here is a 42.00 gr H4350 throw is recorded when I first got mine, much quicker than the CM to me.

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Old 12-10-2018, 5:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Citadelgrad87 View Post
I dont yet have an annealer, but after the first of the year that will change. I will anneal every firing when that happens.
I do have an annealer.
I would not run my brass through it more than every 3 firings.
Even 5 firings would be fine.
If you are using bushing dies, you are just not working the brass enough for it to work harden enough to justify annealing.
I went 12 firings on Winchester brass without ever annealing and the necks never split.
The primer pockets got loose first.
The neck tension stayed consistent and I know that as I seat with an arbor press.
You can REALLY feel the differences in neck tension when you seat with an arbor press.
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Old 12-11-2018, 8:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Citadelgrad87 View Post
I have read that neck tension is much more uniform if you anneal after each firing, and i have read that guys are getting 40 firings out of doing so.

I figure if i have the machine, this seems like a worthwhile step.
Sounds like a lot of work and time...like others said doesnít sound like itís necessary. I didnít think so, but I am mainly a gas gun reloader so I throw out my brass after 6 firings or so and never look back. Then again most of my brass was traded to me or bought from a connect I used to have that would get me once fired from a Police training facility, so I never get attached to it.

Buy a cheap Lee powder measure, it will really speed up the process if you dump to just under the target weight. Lyman 55 is my favorite powder measure, very accurate, good for small grain powders because the parts are machined, but costs a lot more than the Lee.
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Old 12-11-2018, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Whiterabbit View Post
https://www.ebay.com/itm/RCBS-Charge...-/192463548196

It works.

You will still throw over 0.3. Just less often.
Yup. I have one. I currently have the straw method in use. I will say that either the straw or the reducer helps, but doesn't, IMO, make the CM "consistent".
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Old 12-11-2018, 10:38 AM
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Your process is same as mine. First word in your thread title says it all. If you don't care about consistency then ya just get a powder thrower and get it close and charge away. But precision costs time.
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Old 12-12-2018, 9:36 AM
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Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
I do have an annealer.
I would not run my brass through it more than every 3 firings.
Even 5 firings would be fine.
If you are using bushing dies, you are just not working the brass enough for it to work harden enough to justify annealing.
I went 12 firings on Winchester brass without ever annealing and the necks never split.
I notice soot on the shoulders of my 6mm BR cases after about 2 -3 firings after annealing. I am, however, running nowhere-near-max charges. The first firing after annealing shows the typical sine wave soot pattern on the neck only.

Just my observation.
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Old 12-12-2018, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
I do have an annealer.
I would not run my brass through it more than every 3 firings.
Even 5 firings would be fine.
If you are using bushing dies, you are just not working the brass enough for it to work harden enough to justify annealing.
I went 12 firings on Winchester brass without ever annealing and the necks never split.
The primer pockets got loose first.
The neck tension stayed consistent and I know that as I seat with an arbor press.
You can REALLY feel the differences in neck tension when you seat with an arbor press.
Have you ever performed a single variable test for neck tension vs velocity, or tension vs velocity spread? Can you quantify a level of neck tension needed for a certain level of velocity shift?

(in the same way I can quantify a level of charge weight or case capacity to an amount of velocity shift, no matter how small or large)

Asking for one of our own. Want to know if I can use annealing to affect velocity (through affecting neck tension). And I mean that in a quantitative way, to measure how much benefit I really get.
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Old 12-12-2018, 10:40 AM
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I run 2 RCBS Chargemasters. Speed up my process by cutting half the time down to dispense powder.

On annealing there is some studies done by Litz on this... very interesting.

On a .308 every 2-3 firings is fine. I annealed every 2-3 on my big bore stuff.

Annealing made EZ is what you should be saving for

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Old 12-12-2018, 11:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiterabbit View Post
Have you ever performed a single variable test for neck tension vs velocity, or tension vs velocity spread? Can you quantify a level of neck tension needed for a certain level of velocity shift?

(in the same way I can quantify a level of charge weight or case capacity to an amount of velocity shift, no matter how small or large)

Asking for one of our own. Want to know if I can use annealing to affect velocity (through affecting neck tension). And I mean that in a quantitative way, to measure how much benefit I really get.
I seat with hand dies and you can definitely tell when the bullet seating tension is higher or lower then normal.
I set those rounds aside for positional shooting and keep the ones that feel most consistent for longrange prone use.
My 1000yd waterline is usually around 3" tall so I am not getting enough velocity variation to warrant the extra work of annealing all the time nor can I even tell a difference on target when I anneal.
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