"Way around" hi-cap mag laws? Update??

[Uxi]

1) Wait till this legislative session is over
2) Do Armored car thing
3) Profit!
4) Legislature removes armored car exception next year
5) Gene's "Package" is exposed
6) Profit!

?

My main fear would be an overreaction from Sacramento. What would really stop them from an outright ban on all "high caps". No rebuild kits, no grandfathering, nothing. A few people would sue, some would leave the State... They'd create a lot of felons who would refuse to turn in/destroy, etc etc.

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by vmwerks

Frustration? I for one do not understand the frustration. Seriously it is what it is - this effort is under away and will take as long as it needs to. I want it as bad as teh next person but any effort is better than no effort. Rather than feels frustrated why not feel thankful someone is willing to even do this in the first place.

My frustration is not with CGF or anyone working for it. They have my full support and I donate when I can. My frustration is that because I am on one side of an imaginary line in the dirt, my rights are nearly stripped away from me. My frustration is the system is set up agains restoring my rights so it takes years and large amounts of money to make progress.

[tonelar]

Originally Posted by sirsloth

Wait, are you trying to compare buying an OLL in 2005 to starting up an armored car business? Exactly how hard was it back then to get an OLL?

Sirsloth; ever own one of these $300* delights?

-this (followed by the sealed magwell carbon15) was the state of the art in 2003-2004 iirc-


* receiver only price

[bohoki]

i'm baffled to what this work around is short of a vending machine accepting suggested donations before dispensing

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by bohoki

i'm baffled to what this work around is short of a vending machine accepting suggested donations before dispensing

From what I understand is business can sell them. I'm sure it will be explained in detail when the time comes.

[GettoPhilosopher]

Originally Posted by bohoki

i'm baffled to what this work around is short of a vending machine accepting suggested donations before dispensing

From the little I've had explained to me, it's so ridiculously esoteric I doubt you could guess. I have no idea who thought of it, but I love it.

Sent from my Galaxy S II. Please overlook any typos.

[QQQ]

Originally Posted by hoffmang

At this moment there is no (well almost no) amount of money that would change the priorities to the magazine ban ahead of:

Carry
Lifetime bans on keeping or bearing
Semiautomatic bans
"Safe" Rosters
Limiting sensitive places
Removing "sporting purposes" from GCA
Removing out of stand purchase and possession laws
Protecting the right to purchase handguns for those over 18 and under 21
Stopping ammo registration and shipping restrictions
Limiting waiting periods
Lowering state purchase fees

It fits in somewhere above and will move faster than a couple of items up here, but it's just not as critical as e.g. carry or semiauto bans. People lose their lives or go to jail over those two. Magazine capacity can be worked around until we fix it.

-Gene

Now THERE'S a well-planned priority list!

[greasemonkey]

Originally Posted by morfeeis

if we had a fund raiser just for this case would it help? say you buy a $30 tshirt and all profits went to support this case (say $24 or so)?

Let me know cause i have the shirt all ready to go!

As a matter of fact, there IS a way you can buy a T-shirt & other F'ing cool schwag that directly supports CGF's legal efforts:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=503815

Originally Posted by wildhawker

All,

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Over the next 1.14 weeks, we'll be adding some truly badass stuff that I am positive you'll want under the tree this year! Needless to say, we're here to support "ATF" - the "convenience store" version of ATF, not the government agency. For example, some of the things you should stay tuned for:

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• CGF "Evil Black Espresso" blend coffee

Thanks for shopping at CGF and supporting your 2A rights in the process!

-Brandon

p.s. Here's some pictures of the new digs!

[M. D. Van Norman]

Originally Posted by bohoki

i’m baffled to what this work around is short of a vending machine accepting suggested donations before dispensing

As I understand it, the workaround hinges on federal preemption issues.

[bohoki]

Originally Posted by M. D. Van Norman

As I understand it, the workaround hinges on federal preemption issues.

its best i am kept in the dark cause i am not clever enough to figure it out and i cant keep a secret

if it is so broad the legal theory would cover multiple other banned items such as nunchucks and ninja stars i'm not holding my breath

[Peter.Steele]

Originally Posted by bohoki

its best i am kept in the dark cause i am not clever enough to figure it out and i cant keep a secret

if it is so broad the legal theory would cover multiple other banned items such as nunchucks and ninja stars i'm not holding my breath

No, it won't cover chucks and shuriken, because mere possession of them is criminalized, whereas it's not, for magazines.

There's two workarounds so far as I can tell. Without going into specifics, there are one or two specific paths through which trade may pass that California has absolutely zero regulatory power. Gene's package is focussed on acquiring non-neutered magazines through one of them, but conceivably any item whose importation into California is illegal, but whose possession is not criminalized, and which is not 49-state contraband as well ... yeah, you could bring it into CA the same way.

[easy]

Wish all this was in plain english.....

[GettoPhilosopher]

Originally Posted by easy

Wish all this was in plain english.....

Someday you can buy GTRMs. It's complicated. Be patient. Other things take priority. Check back in .

Concise enough for everyone?

[Fastattack]

So for us not so educated common folk - getting back to the OPs original observation ... Can someone explain how selling 10rnd 10/22 mags somehow gets around the hi-cap mag law??? You guys are leaving me in the dark here.

[mosinnagantm9130]

Originally Posted by Fastattack

So for us not so educated common folk - getting back to the OPs original observation ... Can someone explain how selling 10rnd 10/22 mags somehow gets around the hi-cap mag law??? You guys are leaving me in the dark here.

Pretty much all of us are in the dark here. I don't know what the work-around is, but I'd guess Gene selling the 10 rounders was to set him up as a magazine vendor.

[Dave A]

I wonder if the recent changes in the penal code language on magazines concurrent with re-numbering, was somehow related to the extensive discussion of a work around in this thread and others?

[bwiese]

Originally Posted by Dave A

I wonder if the recent changes in the penal code language on magazines concurrent with re-numbering, was somehow related to the extensive discussion of a work around in this thread and others?

Even if it were, it's irrelevant.

The renumbering/'clarification' can legally neither extend nor reduce the force of the existing original law. Any changes/actions brought about by such action are unsupportable.

[nobody_special]

Originally Posted by bwiese

Even if it were, it's irrelevant.

The renumbering/'clarification' can legally neither extend nor reduce the force of the existing original law. Any changes/actions brought about by such action are unsupportable.

But even under the old numbered code, the magazines are nuisances and subject to summary confiscation and destruction unless they were possessed in California prior to January 1, 2000. (And I'm not even sure about that exception.)

Luckily there's no way to tell a grandfathered magazine from one obtained by the work-around... unless it is of a type only manufactured post-2000.

[nrandell]

Originally Posted by Peter.Steele

No, it won't cover chucks and shuriken, because mere possession of them is criminalized, whereas it's not, for magazines.

There's two workarounds so far as I can tell. Without going into specifics, there are one or two specific paths through which trade may pass that California has absolutely zero regulatory power. Gene's package is focussed on acquiring non-neutered magazines through one of them, but conceivably any item whose importation into California is illegal, but whose possession is not criminalized, and which is not 49-state contraband as well ... yeah, you could bring it into CA the same way.

Couldn't the legislature just make possession illegal?

[chead]

Originally Posted by nrandell

Couldn't the legislature just make possession illegal?

Maybe. The issue now is that there are tons of legal preban standard capacity mags out there and generally mags aren't serialed or date-stamped. I really doubt anyone expects owners to fork them over. It's a losing battle.

[Uxi]

Originally Posted by Peter.Steele

Without going into specifics, there are one or two specific paths through which trade may pass that California has absolutely zero regulatory power. Gene's package is focussed on acquiring non-neutered magazines through one of them, but conceivably any item whose importation into California is illegal, but whose possession is not criminalized, and which is not 49-state contraband as well ... yeah, you could bring it into CA the same way.

That doesn't work because the State Legislature would then be able to ban possession, too (and it would easily pass), but we've been told there's no real workaround by the State government alone.

[Peter.Steele]

Originally Posted by Uxi

That doesn't work because the State Legislature would then be able to ban possession, too (and it would easily pass), but we've been told there's no real workaround by the State government alone.

No, we've been told that there's. Nothing the state could do to block that channel of commerce, which is true for either path. There's always the outright ban as an option. Gene's package wont survive in the face of an outright ban.

But... a ban, absent total confiscation, is not likely to be possible on a non-serialized product, and then you have issues of 4th amendment, etc.

[Meplat]

Originally Posted by Uxi

My main fear would be an overreaction from Sacramento. What would really stop them from an outright ban on all "high caps". No rebuild kits, no grandfathering, nothing. A few people would sue, some would leave the State... They'd create a lot of felons who would refuse to turn in/destroy, etc etc.

That would really suck! I have lots of mags from the good old days. Even If I wanted to get rid of them all I would probably miss one. But I am sure that if my place was ever searched they wouldn't miss it. Nightmare!

[Meplat]

Originally Posted by easy

Wish all this was in plain english.....

Yes! It would seem that enough hints have been given that our enemies probably have it figured out, but the rank and file CGNer must be kept in the dark.

[RRichie09]

Originally Posted by Meplat

Yes! It would seem that enough hints have been given that our enemies probably have it figured out, but the rank and file CGNer must be kept in the dark.

Probably because as soon as the information is given out everyone will start doing it. CGN'ers aren't really known for their patience haha. I think they want to control the timeline and if everyone starts using this new method then they lose that control.


I say just be happy that they are doing this at all.

[Meplat]

Originally Posted by RRichie09

Probably because as soon as the information is given out everyone will start doing it. CGN'ers aren't really known for their patience haha. I think they want to control the timeline and if everyone starts using this new method then they lose that control.


I say just be happy that they are doing this at all.

Great point!!

[dantodd]

Originally Posted by Meplat

Yes! It would seem that enough hints have been given that our enemies probably have it figured out, but the rank and file CGNer must be kept in the dark.

It is unfortunate that so many who claim to have knowledge conveyed in confidence seem to think it is acceptable to post so much information. Typically when one is given confidential information it is unwise to blab to the whole world on the Imternet, even if someone else has guessed at the information or even if the source has given hints. Some people just don't know when or how to STFU.

[dantodd]

Originally Posted by RRichie09

Probably because as soon as the information is given out everyone will start doing it. CGN'ers aren't really known for their patience haha. I think they want to control the timeline and if everyone starts using this new method then they lose that control.

I don't think this is likely. Gene has said a number of times that to execute his plan there need to be at least one lawsuit to "set the stage."

[Peter.Steele]

Originally Posted by dantodd

It is unfortunate that so many who claim to have knowledge conveyed in confidence seem to think it is acceptable to post so much information. Typically when one is given confidential information it is unwise to blab to the whole world on the Imternet, even if someone else has guessed at the information or even if the source has given hints. Some people just don't know when or how to STFU.

So who said anything about "in confidence?"

[M. D. Van Norman]

Originally Posted by dantodd

It is unfortunate that so many … seem to think it is acceptable to post so much information.

As I recall, Gene himself has said that he has dropped enough hints for the knowledgeable to put two and two together. Of course, when he does finally spell things out for everyone, I’m sure that someone will disagree with the validity of the workaround.

[HowardW56]

Originally Posted by dantodd

It is unfortunate that so many who claim to have knowledge conveyed in confidence seem to think it is acceptable to post so much information. Typically when one is given confidential information it is unwise to blab to the whole world on the Imternet, even if someone else has guessed at the information or even if the source has given hints. Some people just don't know when or how to STFU.

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by Peter.Steele

No, we've been told that there's. Nothing the state could do to block that channel of commerce, which is true for either path. There's always the outright ban as an option. Gene's package wont survive in the face of an outright ban.

But... a ban, absent total confiscation, is not likely to be possible on a non-serialized product, and then you have issues of 4th amendment, etc.

You honestly think the CA gov would hesitate to seize every single hi cap in possession if that was their only option left?

[M. D. Van Norman]

There are other amendments to consider.

[Peter.Steele]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

You honestly think the CA gov would hesitate to seize every single hi cap in possession if that was their only option left?

No, not at all. I do think they would balk at the price, though. It would be expensive.

Unless they were declared to be a nuisance, subject to summary seizure and destruction ...

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by Peter.Steele

No, not at all. I do think they would balk at the price, though. It would be expensive.

Unless they were declared to be a nuisance, subject to summary seizure and destruction ...

Weren't they declared a nuisance?

[HowardW56]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

Weren't they declared a nuisance?

I would expect that whosale confiscation & destruction would be hard to defend, as they aren't a nusance in most other states...

[bwiese]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

You honestly think the CA gov would hesitate to seize every single hi cap in possession if that was their only option left?

That's why the legal prep work is necessary.

Proper papers will be waveable.

[Tripper]

Originally Posted by Peter.Steele

Unless they were declared to be a nuisance, subject to summary seizure and destruction ...

can we declare state congress as nuisance
is there a petition for that

I'll start

State congress is a nuisance
Tripper

[Peter.Steele]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

Weren't they declared a nuisance?

heh

That was sort of my point.

[M. D. Van Norman]

Originally Posted by bwiese

Proper papers will be waveable.