At what point is a firearm considered stolen ?

[Electric Factory]

Here's a hypothetical question;

The scenario: A private party transfer between buyer and seller is done at 'Gun Shop A'. 10 days elapse and the BUYER goes to pick up the now legally transferred firearm.
For various reasons [ shop not open, shop owner unavailable etc] the firearm cannot be picked up after the properly elapsed 10 day period. Fifteen days elapse, still no availability by Gun Shop A to pickup the legally transferred firearm. During this period roughly 30 calls and email are placed to Gun Shop A, none are replied to.

The question; at what point would you consider the now legally transferred firearm stolen by Gun Shop A ? WOULD you consider it stolen, or something else ? Remember,[1] no reply to successive and persistent messages and,[2] at 30 days the legally transferred firearm will need to be re-DROS'd.

What measures would you deem appropriate in the above hypothetical scenario ?

[Calguns2000]

You must be a customer of Metroshot.

[tyrist]

The firearm is not stolen...it's a business dispute you have to sue them. Civil matter not crimminal.

[Electric Factory]

Originally Posted by tyrist

The firearm is not stolen...it's a business dispute you have to sue them. Civil matter not criminal.

Hmmm... isn't the BUYER alleging Gun Shop A to be in possession of item[s] not belonging to them, but belonging to the BUYER ? What's that called ?

[sorensen440]

Any idea why they arent around?

[Electric Factory]

Originally Posted by sorensen440

Any idea why they arent around?

Not. A. Clue.

Speaking hypothetically, of course.

[Greg-Dawg]

Contact popo.

[tyrist]

The police will only say what I just said. Besides there is no asportation or appropriation (that we know of).

[AJAX22]

Technically (i think)that is theft by conversion, but I believe there are certain requirements which must be met to file it. depending on the exact circumstances it could also be theft by concealment.

I think in CA that is a civil tort not a criminal one.

[alex00]

Originally Posted by Electric Factory

Hmmm... isn't the BUYER alleging Gun Shop A to be in possession of item[s] not belonging to them, but belonging to the BUYER ? What's that called ?

It's not theft... It's still a civil matter. Buyer needs to prove the store kept the items for some sort of gain. Simply not returning phone calls does not prove theft. Terrible customer service, sure, but no crimes yet. There may be a perfectly legitimate reason why the shop hasn't responded. Death in the family, personal illness, called up for Military service... Who knows. The elements have not been met for theft, yet.

484. (a) Every person who shall feloniously steal, take, carry,
lead, or drive away the personal property of another, or who shall
fraudulently appropriate property which has been entrusted to him or
her...

[sorensen440]

Originally Posted by alex1200

It's not theft... It's still a civil matter. Buyer needs to prove the store kept the items for some sort of gain. Simply not returning phone calls does not prove theft. Terrible customer service, sure, but no crimes yet. There may be a perfectly legitimate reason why the shop hasn't responded. Death in the family, personal illness, called up for Military service... Who knows. The elements have not been met for theft, yet.

so what is it if I'm selling you a car and you pay me but then cant get me to release the car to you ?

[Electric Factory]

Originally Posted by alex1200

It's not theft... It's still a civil matter. Buyer needs to prove the store kept the items for some sort of gain. Simply not returning phone calls does not prove theft. Terrible customer service, sure, but no crimes yet. There may be a perfectly legitimate reason why the shop hasn't responded. Death in the family, personal illness, called up for Military service... Who knows. The elements have not been met for theft, yet.

Interesting. Please expand your thought process a little; if I am in possession of your property after a legal transaction, what is that called ? At what point am I not allowed to possess your property ? Or better yet, why would the BUYEr have to prove Gun Store A's intent for anything, other than proving that [1] the item in question is the legal property of the BUYER and [2] Gun Store A has it ?
Whatever the reasons- death in the family, car accident, military service, the list of possibilities is endless. At what point is my possession of your property a theft, once I've demonstrated my best efforts to get it from you ?

[Electric Factory]

Originally Posted by sorensen440

so what is it if I'm selling you a car and you pay me but then cant get me to release the car to you ?

My question exactly .

[alex00]

Originally Posted by sorensen440

so what is it if I'm selling you a car and you pay me but then cant get me to release the car to you ?

It depends on what kind of contact we have after the sale. If I can't reach you it is by default a civil issue. If I get ahold of you and you tell me to pound sand, it becomes a crime. The distinction is the actions of the seller. Not following through with a sale is not a crime until the seller actively refuses to release the item. It may still be a violation on the civil side, so it becomes a matter of what court will handle the case.

Until the shop owner actively refuses to give the property back, he has not violated criminal laws. If this situation was mine, I would send a registered letter to the shop. I would contact DOJ BOF, and ask for intervention. The local police cannot help, other than possibly contacting the seller and attempting to mediate the exchange.

It is very hard to prove a seller is guilty of a crime when not releasing property to a buyer. If it were easy, jails would be filled with terrible merchants. Most laws are designed to make transactions civil matters, with the exception of outright fraud.

[Electric Factory]

Originally Posted by alex1200

It depends on what kind of contact we have after the sale. If I can't reach you it is by default a civil issue. If I get ahold of you and you tell me to pound sand, it becomes a crime. .

And to further complicate the issue; the hypothetical transaction is NOT a 'sale', it's a transfer. The item in this case was bought and paid for from SELLEr to BUYER. Gun Shop A is simply the transfer point. A legal transfer was undertaken, with specific parameters governing that transfer.
I wonder what rules govern Gun Store A, or ANY gun store from holding your legally transferred firearm- indefinitely ?

[alex00]

Originally Posted by Electric Factory

Interesting. Please expand your thought process a little; if I am in possession of your property after a legal transaction, what is that called ? At what point am I not allowed to possess your property ? Or better yet, why would the BUYEr have to prove Gun Store A's intent for anything, other than proving that [1] the item in question is the legal property of the BUYER and [2] Gun Store A has it ?
Whatever the reasons- death in the family, car accident, military service, the list of possibilities is endless. At what point is my possession of your property a theft, once I've demonstrated my best efforts to get it from you ?

The reason the buyer needs to prove intent is because theft is a "specific intent" crime. You need to have the intent to deprive the person of property in order to commit the crime. In the absence of intent, the elements are not met for the crime. The list of possibilities is endless, and until you can show intent, there is no crime in the possession of your property.

I borrow a DVD from you and you want it back. You call me and I don't answer. It is possible that I am on vacation or simply ignoring you. Until you prove I am ignoring you, I have not committed a crime. It makes sending a registered letter a great tool for proving intent.

The law is designed to prevent people with a legitimate excuse from becoming hapless criminals. Unlike most gun laws, that are "general intent" crimes. Mere possession of the item satisfies the elements. Intent is not a factor, you could have the best reason in the world to possess an OLL with "evil" features, and detachable magazine. It doesn't matter, because it is a "general intent" crime.

[tgriffin]

as stated this is still a civil manner. Even if it goes thirty day and has to be re DROS'ed, its a civil matter that could and should be pursued to remedy the situation.

[Electric Factory]

So step#1 for the BUYER is to send a registered letter to Gun Shop A demanding.... what ?


" Dear Gun Shop A,
Having conducted a legal transfer of a Super Duper 5000 firearm you are now in possession of my legally transferred firearm, my legal property. I have made several attempts to pick up my Super Duper 5000, all with no success. None of my phone calls or messages have been responded to. I am interested in resolving this situation without any further recrimination and am prepared to let the matter drop. Please reply TODAY with exactly what day I will be able to retrieve my legally transferred property. "

Something like this ? Have I missed anything ?

When this hypothetical letter goes unanswered, would the BATF be helpful in upping the ante ?

[sloguy]

what are the posted hours of the shop? if they are closed when you go during normal hours, call the police and document the closed shop. create a paper trail of police reports showing the shop not open when they should be. might be helpful later if the shop doesnt cough up your property.

[Paratus et Vigilans]

Originally Posted by Electric Factory

Hmmm... isn't the BUYER alleging Gun Shop A to be in possession of item[s] not belonging to them, but belonging to the BUYER ? What's that called ?

Conversion

[truthseeker]

Just another reason we should have NO waiting laws!

[Moonclip]

Originally Posted by sloguy

what are the posted hours of the shop? if they are closed when you go during normal hours, call the police and document the closed shop. create a paper trail of police reports showing the shop not open when they should be. might be helpful later if the shop doesnt cough up your property.

IIRC FFL's are required to have set business hours when applying for a FFL.

[M. Sage]

PC 503?

503. Embezzlement is the fraudulent appropriation of property by a
person to whom it has been intrusted.

You'd have to prove fraud, though...

[alex00]

Originally Posted by Electric Factory

So step#1 for the BUYER is to send a registered letter to Gun Shop A demanding.... what ?

" Dear Gun Shop A,
Having conducted a legal transfer of a Super Duper 5000 firearm you are now in possession of my legally transferred firearm, my legal property. I have made several attempts to pick up my Super Duper 5000, all with no success. None of my phone calls or messages have been responded to. I am interested in resolving this situation without any further recrimination and am prepared to let the matter drop. Please reply TODAY with exactly what day I will be able to retrieve my legally transferred property. "

Something like this ? Have I missed anything ?

When this hypothetical letter goes unanswered, would the BATF be helpful in upping the ante ?

That is exactly what you should send. Give a "reasonable" time frame for a reply, a week or so. Send it registered so there is proof of recept. For added protection get the letter notarized, and retain a copy for yourself. Once the letter goes unanswered, upon recept, you are closer to "proving" wrongdoing. It may still be deemed civil at this point, but you have a very strong leg to stand on in whatever court hears the case.

Originally Posted by Electric Factory

And to further complicate the issue; the hypothetical transaction is NOT a 'sale', it's a transfer. The item in this case was bought and paid for from SELLEr to BUYER. Gun Shop A is simply the transfer point. A legal transfer was undertaken, with specific parameters governing that transfer.
I wonder what rules govern Gun Store A, or ANY gun store from holding your legally transferred firearm- indefinitely ?

All the same laws would apply, for the most part, whether they are a seller or transferor. There may be some minute legal distinctions, but nothing that would affect the outcome in this scenario.

Originally Posted by M. Sage

PC 503?

503. Embezzlement is the fraudulent appropriation of property by a
person to whom it has been intrusted.

You'd have to prove fraud, though...

503 would apply if the shop was cooking the books to make it look like the item belonged to them. Simply keeping the item, and outright refusing to give it back would lean more toward theft. It's not a huge difference, just different charges to apply.

You work in a store and take money from the register=theft.
You work in a store, take money and hide it in the books=embezzlement.

[Electric Factory]

Alex1200-
Thank you. Invaluable information.

[alex00]

I just hope you get your gun soon.

[packnrat]

best thing you can do is get a sold paper work trail going,

visit the local police and report this ON PAPER for there files, not just a phone call,

send a cert letter or better yet visit the local fbi and do the same.

and send a cert letter to the batfe&a in was.dc.

send a cert letter to the seller first.

and then include a copy of that letter to all the police agencies you talk to.

may work...may not...but work on the paper trail.




.

[jamesob]

its not stolen because its a business transaction that is not complete. you will have to go to court most likely because its a civil matter.

[CA_Libertarian]

I would add this to your letter to the shop:

"CC: [Police Department or Sherriff's Office with jurisdiction over the gun shop]
CC: [nearest FBI field office]
CC: BATFE"

And then actually send copies to those agencies, along with proof of you purchase and DROS docs, and a cover letter requesting that the agency document your complaint and investigate. Be sure to request a written response to your complaint! This means you will have a paper trail to bring to civil court if you have to sue this gun shop for depriving you of your property. Save your receipts for the cost of sending these certified letters, as you may be able to recover those costs in court.

[M. Sage]

I'd add the DOJ Firearms Division to that list of CC.

[rayra]

How asinine.

Just go to the FFL during their very next 'Open' period and get your firearm, instead of spastically fluttering your little butterfly wings against his email / phone screens.

You've created your own nightmare by meshing your dysfunction with the FFL's dysfunction.
It takes a complete moron to make a mountain out of a molehill like this, then compound the situation even more by seeking to escalate the situation via the ATF or criminal charges.

Hypothetically speaking, of course.

[tyrist]

Originally Posted by packnrat

best thing you can do is get a sold paper work trail going,

visit the local police and report this ON PAPER for there files, not just a phone call,
send a cert letter or better yet visit the local fbi and do the same.

and send a cert letter to the batfe&a in was.dc.

send a cert letter to the seller first.

and then include a copy of that letter to all the police agencies you talk to.

may work...may not...but work on the paper trail.




.

Exactly what report would be made? You don't take police reports for business disputes. Police reports are for crimes, traffic accidents, and lost property.

[eta34]

Originally Posted by rayra

How asinine.

Just go to the FFL during their very next 'Open' period and get your firearm, instead of spastically fluttering your little butterfly wings against his email / phone screens.

You've created your own nightmare by meshing your dysfunction with the FFL's dysfunction.
It takes a complete moron to make a mountain out of a molehill like this, then compound the situation even more by seeking to escalate the situation via the ATF or criminal charges.

Hypothetically speaking, of course.

Really? How many others have said that they have gone by when the shop was supposed to be open and is wasn't? Should he start a surveillance outside of the shop and wait for it to open?

[technique]

The firearm is not yours until it is signed out to you. For all you know, you are being denied or delayed. Technically.

However what is going on is wrong and the business owner should be held accountable. I agree its a civil matter. Contact the ATF or DOJ inquire and report. If they contact the business owner it might help you situation and anyone else in the same situation.

[NiteQwill]

Originally Posted by rayra

How asinine.

Just go to the FFL during their very next 'Open' period and get your firearm, instead of spastically fluttering your little butterfly wings against his email / phone screens.

You've created your own nightmare by meshing your dysfunction with the FFL's dysfunction.
It takes a complete moron to make a mountain out of a molehill like this, then compound the situation even more by seeking to escalate the situation via the ATF or criminal charges.

Hypothetically speaking, of course.

You're kidding, right?
It's not that easy. Metroshot is not exactly open when they are supposed to be. They don't return calls, emails, or messages on the door. It took me 1 month to have them ship an order to me I paid for 2 months prior. I will never take my business there again.

[Riodog]

While I agree with Tyrist, eta34, and of course rayra, I would consider the gunshop in the same light as I would an escrow company. They have not stolen the weapon however how much time after the fact do they have for the return of the weapon? I do not think I've ever heard of a time frame for the gunshops duty to return. We all know that if you don't pick up the weapon within 30 days it's another dros. I would think that the best course of action would be to contact the ATF and make a record of the fact that the weapon is still in the possession of the FFL holder. I'm thinking that if infact the gunshop owner is flaking out or going BK the weapon should not be classified as an asset of his and should be returned to whomever the owner is.

Other than that I'd say the fricken flake needs to be hurt, badly.
Rio

[RP1911]

Since the state mandates the 10-day waiting period and DOJ oversees the transfer via DROS., contact DOJ first and then BATFE if the need arises.

[DedEye]

Originally Posted by eta34

Really? How many others have said that they have gone by when the shop was supposed to be open and is wasn't? Should he start a surveillance outside of the shop and wait for it to open?

Actually, it would be pretty much epic if someone were to take a clock and calendar to Metroshot on one of the days when they're supposed to be open, then if the store is closed, take a picture of the clock, calendar and "store closed" sign to create a FAIL picture just for posts like this .

[sloguy]

any update on whats happening?