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Concealed Carry Discussion General discussion regarding CCW/LTC in California

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  #1  
Old 10-17-2019, 6:06 PM
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Default CCW Revoked Sacramento

So I just got my letter I was expecting from Scott Jones revoking my CCW. I ND'd into my hand and paramedics had to respond, so I got hit for unsafe handling. Considering it's likely a year before my support hand is even a real hand again, the year before re-applying doesn't bother me much, but what I was wondering is how much this would weigh into them granting a new license next year. Nothing criminal happened, it was on my private property, and I'm outside of any city lines, so even the discharge wasn't considered an issue.
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  #2  
Old 10-17-2019, 6:16 PM
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Put yourself in the background investigator's place.

A man who had a ND which resulted in a serious medical injury wants a permit to carry a pistol in PUBLIC.

There's your answer.
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  #3  
Old 10-17-2019, 6:25 PM
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Sad turn of events, wishing you the best in healing, hopefully a valuable life lesson learned.
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Old 10-17-2019, 6:42 PM
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Originally Posted by baranski View Post
Sad turn of events, wishing you the best in healing, hopefully a valuable life lesson learned.
Thank you! The outlook is pretty good. Lessons indeed learned, I'll try it after the year passes, but I won't expect anything. Ah well, it was a good run.
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Old 10-17-2019, 8:10 PM
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Originally Posted by SnWnMe View Post
Put yourself in the background investigator's place.

A man who had a ND which resulted in a serious medical injury wants a permit to carry a pistol in PUBLIC.

There's your answer.
^^^ This.


Sorry for your “loss” JC. It sucks, but thats California politics. You could always move to American, like Arizona. No permit required for CCW or open carry.
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Old 10-17-2019, 8:50 PM
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Sorry to hear it and hopefully it works out.

If you’re ever up to it, tell us how it went down - you may save someone else some pain (or worse) by sharing your story.
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Old 10-17-2019, 8:50 PM
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I'm sure deputies in the IA's department have their share of NDs every year and I suspect those responsible for those NDs face only nominal sanctions.

You can try to apply again in the future and just see how it plays out...you've got little to lose. As others have said, look at it from the IA's perspective.

It's good to hear the injury was not any more serious than it was and that it was not to someone else.
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  #8  
Old 10-17-2019, 9:48 PM
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- try re-applying when you can
- but TELL US THE STORY
- the GOOD that can come from this is we can all learn from your story
- how did it pop off?







?
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  #9  
Old 10-18-2019, 9:03 AM
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Thanks for being realistic and acknowledging this as an ND, and not an “accidental discharge”.

Did the revocation notice state there is no appeal? If it allows appeal, or didn’t foreclose an appeal, it would be worth a $.50 stamp and a little time to craft and submit a request for reconsideration. The odds are high that it won’t be accepted, but they can’t say, “Yes,” if you don’t ask.

Also, as others have said, it would be helpful for us to understand how this happened, as a “Lessons Learned...Don’t Do This,” experience.

Turn your pain into something useful.

Best.
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Old 10-18-2019, 9:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyHawk View Post
Sorry to hear it and hopefully it works out.

If you’re ever up to it, tell us how it went down - you may save someone else some pain (or worse) by sharing your story.
Thanks to everyone for the well wishes.

So I was re-arming to go out, and pulled my RIA GI 1911 out. Hammer down. For whatever insane reason that day I didn't do a press check like a normal human being, but instead put the muzzle against my palm and pushed back a couple times. I was talking to a friend at the time so that could be the cause of such a terrible move. Since the hammer was down and RIA does series 70-style guns, I successfully slam-fired into my palm. Hornady Critical Duty 220gr +p .45ACP in all its glory. I'm just thankful that I still was smart enough to not have the muzzle pointed at anything valuable, or my friend! The round went straight through and embedded in a filling cabinet with no other collateral damage.

As far as the hand goes, nerves and blood veins are miraculously intact, so no extremities are going to be lost. It's a little soon to tell, but I'm probably looking at 75%-95% restored functionality to my hand. All in all, I'm unbelievably lucky. And dumb.

I've been toying with the idea of driving down to my local sheriff office to see if they'll give me the bullet back. I could mount it to the safe as a constant reminder that we have safety rules for a reason.
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Old 10-18-2019, 9:25 AM
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I've read stories of cops having an ND while on duty. Just wondering if they would be held to the same standard and have their weapon carrying abilities stripped for a year? Anyone know?

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Old 10-18-2019, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Squatch View Post
I've read stories of cops having an ND while on duty. Just wondering if they would be held to the same standard and have their weapon carrying abilities stripped for a year? Anyone know?

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Well, there is Iggy Chin (infamous DOJ employee) that discharged his rifle into his desk at work.
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Old 10-18-2019, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by wilit View Post
Well, there is Iggy Chin (infamous DOJ employee) that discharged his rifle into his desk at work.
Desk pop.
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  #14  
Old 10-18-2019, 10:25 AM
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OP-

I might suggest training... Front Sight is almost free- buy a life membership for $200

your cost is travel, hotel and ammo

When you decide to reapply, you can produce graduation certificates of training...

When the issuing agency reviews your case and you show you spend time to take 2,3, 4 or 5 40 hours classes, they might feel more comfortable that the ND will not reoccur.

my guess is less than 5% of CCW holders take any training above the required CCW class.

If you can also get a CCW from another state- florida, utah, Nevada, it also might make their decision easier to re issue
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  #15  
Old 10-18-2019, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by hermosabeach View Post
OP-

I might suggest training... Front Sight is almost free- buy a life membership for $200

your cost is travel, hotel and ammo

When you decide to reapply, you can produce graduation certificates of training...

When the issuing agency reviews your case and you show you spend time to take 2,3, 4 or 5 40 hours classes, they might feel more comfortable that the ND will not reoccur.

my guess is less than 5% of CCW holders take any training above the required CCW class.

If you can also get a CCW from another state- florida, utah, Nevada, it also might make their decision easier to re issue
Good feedback for OP. I second the training component. But if they still deny you, I would say it’s because you need time to think about your actions. Hopefully it’s not a long wait. Although if you were LEO, you’d be reinstated in no time and would have kept you bullet lol.
Speedy recovery OP.
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  #16  
Old 10-18-2019, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcreilley View Post
Thanks to everyone for the well wishes.

So I was re-arming to go out, and pulled my RIA GI 1911 out. Hammer down. For whatever insane reason that day I didn't do a press check like a normal human being, but instead put the muzzle against my palm and pushed back a couple times. I was talking to a friend at the time so that could be the cause of such a terrible move. Since the hammer was down and RIA does series 70-style guns, I successfully slam-fired into my palm. Hornady Critical Duty 220gr +p .45ACP in all its glory. I'm just thankful that I still was smart enough to not have the muzzle pointed at anything valuable, or my friend! The round went straight through and embedded in a filling cabinet with no other collateral damage.

As far as the hand goes, nerves and blood veins are miraculously intact, so no extremities are going to be lost. It's a little soon to tell, but I'm probably looking at 75%-95% restored functionality to my hand. All in all, I'm unbelievably lucky. And dumb.

I've been toying with the idea of driving down to my local sheriff office to see if they'll give me the bullet back. I could mount it to the safe as a constant reminder that we have safety rules for a reason.

Dayyum....that would be scary as fook

Hope you heal well and get your CCW back one day


.
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  #17  
Old 10-18-2019, 2:37 PM
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OP. Sorry to hear about your story and hope you get 100% back. We all have some type of situation that could have turned out bad and got lucky. Best wishes to you.
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Old 10-18-2019, 3:29 PM
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Just as a reminder - most states will ask if you've had a CCW revoked - so getting an out of state may be harder as well.

Steve
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  #19  
Old 10-18-2019, 4:40 PM
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I was going to suggest training also. In addition it might be worthwhile to reach out to the CCW unit and ask for a quick meeting. You can explain what happened and that you want to take steps to ensure it never happens again. Ask what they need to see to be comfortable reissuing... At least this way everything is on the table. If they answer "never", it might be time to move out of state if carrying is important to you.
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Old 10-18-2019, 4:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcreilley View Post
Thanks to everyone for the well wishes.

So I was re-arming to go out, and pulled my RIA GI 1911 out. Hammer down. For whatever insane reason that day I didn't do a press check like a normal human being, but instead put the muzzle against my palm and pushed back a couple times. I was talking to a friend at the time so that could be the cause of such a terrible move. Since the hammer was down and RIA does series 70-style guns, I successfully slam-fired into my palm. Hornady Critical Duty 220gr +p .45ACP in all its glory. I'm just thankful that I still was smart enough to not have the muzzle pointed at anything valuable, or my friend! The round went straight through and embedded in a filling cabinet with no other collateral damage.

As far as the hand goes, nerves and blood veins are miraculously intact, so no extremities are going to be lost. It's a little soon to tell, but I'm probably looking at 75%-95% restored functionality to my hand. All in all, I'm unbelievably lucky. And dumb.

I've been toying with the idea of driving down to my local sheriff office to see if they'll give me the bullet back. I could mount it to the safe as a constant reminder that we have safety rules for a reason.
Prayers for a speedy and complete recovery.
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Old 10-18-2019, 5:03 PM
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Prayers for a speedy and complete recovery.
I second that.
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Old 10-18-2019, 6:54 PM
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JC,

I am a revolver person. What exactly is a press check? I am unfamiliar. Thank you.



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Old 10-18-2019, 7:06 PM
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... I mean why not just pull the slide back a bit (slingshot) to peek inside to see if there's a round in the chamber?

That's how I do it on my autos.. just pull back a tad and take a peek to verify..


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Old 10-18-2019, 7:30 PM
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Just a flesh wound.

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Old 10-18-2019, 7:52 PM
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Wow, thanks for sharing your story...
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Old 10-18-2019, 8:06 PM
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Wow, that is quite a bizzarre thing to happen, well thanks to the OP for sharing that especially to those of us that own 70 series 1911s.

I don't think that's a slam fire but more like hammer follow. I'm sure OP doesn't need any further castigation than he has already experienced, but that is really something we can all learn from, if only to reiterate the importance of safety habits. We do it for the obvious and the totally unexpected.

Well OP good luck you, hope you recover quickly, and perhaps that training might help increase your chances of getting your ccw back and decrease your risks of anything ever happening like that again.

PS. Hammer follow is what likely happened to an uncle of mine that carried a 1911 for well over 20 years. One day he was carrying a 1911 with a compensator appendix carry, and hammer down. He bent down to pick up a box and the firearm discharged... Coming within millimeters of blowing his junk off. It did set his jeans and underwear on fire lol.

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Old 10-18-2019, 8:20 PM
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Not to harp on you or the situation, but...is that action of pressing the muzzle against your palm an activity you normally do with any other firearm, loaded or not?

I can't think of a single reason to or time I have done that with a real firearm, ever.
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Old 10-18-2019, 8:30 PM
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Not to harp on you or the situation, but...is that action of pressing the muzzle against your palm an activity you normally do with any other firearm, loaded or not?

I can't think of a single reason to or time I have done that with a real firearm, ever.
how you holster a pocket holster? how you hold your holster?
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Old 10-18-2019, 8:58 PM
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Originally Posted by starlight View Post
JC,

I am a revolver person. What exactly is a press check? I am unfamiliar. Thank you.



.
When you push the 1911 slide slightly back by hooking your thumb on the trigger guard and crack the slide open by pushing on the recoil spring plug with your finger. This allows you to see if a round is in the chamber.

At least that's how I do it.

Can't do it with a full length guide rod.

Some people have those front cocking serrations for the same reason.. I think.
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Old 10-18-2019, 8:59 PM
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Wow a lot of responses and a lot of support! Thanks to everyone for the ongoing suggestions and well wishes.

To answer a few questions out there,

I have always done a press check the normal way before this, hence why I only just now have a hole in my hand! I have no idea what possessed me to put pressure on the muzzle, especially seeing as unlocking the breech wouldn't reveal enough of the chamber to see anything anyways.

An interesting suggestion about the hammer follow. My 1911 does have a problem of occasionally the hammer falling to the half cock position when dropping the slide. My local gun store employee told me it was nothing to worry about, but upon looking into it, it could be a mechanical flaw that played into the ND, though that's not really enough to appeal since my hand was over the muzzle of a gun I hadn't even checked yet, so huge safety issue either way. I'm sure Hornady uses fairly sensitive primers since you wouldn't want a light strike in a defensive scenario, so it might not have needed much. It's an interesting thing to ponder, and definitely makes me not entirely trust my 1911 right now.

And no, I definitely don't have a habit of placing any part of my body onto the muzzle of a gun, which is why even now I wonder what on Earth I was thinking at the time.

Thanks again to everyone who has taken the time to post!

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Old 10-18-2019, 9:09 PM
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Hope you heal quickly JC, kudos for owning up to the mistakes.

It happened at home and not in public, personally I think you'll get your CCW back after a timeout.
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Old 10-18-2019, 10:16 PM
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Ya. Thanks for sharing your story.
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Old 10-18-2019, 10:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcreilley View Post

An interesting suggestion about the hammer follow. My 1911 does have a problem of occasionally the hammer falling to the half cock position when dropping the slide. My local gun store employee told me it was nothing to worry about, but upon looking into it, it could be a mechanical flaw that played into the ND, though that's not really enough to appeal since my hand was over the muzzle of a gun I hadn't even checked yet, so huge safety issue either way.
If your sear trips and releases the hammer to half cock when you use the slide release, yes there absolutely is a problem with the gun. That is a standard 1911 inspection and any gun that fails it should be taken out of service on the spot.

And that gun store employee is an idiot.

I don’t see how the hammer being down and then pressing on the muzzle sets off the primer. The 1911 firing pin is inertia driven, that is the only way it ever protrudes through the breech face. The firing pin spring keeps it from otherwise even sliding forward through the breech face (unlike say an AR or SKS).

The hammer resting on the firing pin stop does not protrude the firing pin through the breech face, and if the hammer was down it could never impart any inertia to the firing pin.



For sure the gun needs a good 1911 gunsmith to inspect it and particularly the sear/hammer engagement. As to the exact sequence that led to the event, it will probably come back to you someday and make sense.

Get well and be safe!
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Old 10-19-2019, 1:32 PM
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May I ask how long, from either the time of occurrence or the time you notified the IA, how long until you received your revocation letter?

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Old 10-19-2019, 1:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by faris1984 View Post
how you holster a pocket holster? how you hold your holster?
What? How in the world do you holster a pocket holster that has you putting your hand in front of the muzzle?
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Old 10-19-2019, 2:08 PM
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What? How in the world do you holster a pocket holster that has you putting your hand in front of the muzzle?
Something lost in translation, English is not Faris1984's first language.
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Old 10-19-2019, 2:13 PM
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Wonder if Ca. Is on to something with the LCI law? Just kidding Cali can suck their B.S. laws.
Wishing you a speedy and full recovery OP. Good luck with future CCW's. Lessons learned.
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Old 10-19-2019, 2:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Squatch View Post
I've read stories of cops having an ND while on duty. Just wondering if they would be held to the same standard and have their weapon carrying abilities stripped for a year? Anyone know?

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Well, the one we the jury convicted of felony involuntary manslaughter won't be carrying ever again.

The defense claimed it was a AD, but even their star witness eventually conceded it was a ND.

Felonious negligence, without a doubt.
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  #39  
Old 10-19-2019, 2:56 PM
jcreilley jcreilley is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rush fan View Post
May I ask how long, from either the time of occurrence or the time you notified the IA, how long until you received your revocation letter?

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I think it was about a week from the event. LE made a report the same day as the occurrence I'm sure, and then mine was made about 2 days later.
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  #40  
Old 10-19-2019, 8:26 PM
starlight starlight is offline
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Originally Posted by Dutch3 View Post
Well, the one we the jury convicted of felony involuntary manslaughter won't be carrying ever again.

The defense claimed it was a AD, but even their star witness eventually conceded it was a ND.

Felonious negligence, without a doubt.



this sounds like a terrible story... I hope it is not true..












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