Calguns.net  

Home My iTrader Join the NRA Donate to CGSSA Sponsors CGN Google Search
CA Semiauto Ban(AW)ID Flowchart CA Handgun Ban ID Flowchart CA Shotgun Ban ID Flowchart
Go Back   Calguns.net > POLITICS, LITIGATION AND ACTIVISM > National 2nd Amend. Political & Legal Discussion
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

National 2nd Amend. Political & Legal Discussion Discuss national gun rights and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #281  
Old 04-28-2018, 11:26 AM
rugershooter rugershooter is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,593
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deedle View Post
Why would you say an argument for repealing literally EVERY current gun law is "an argument for gun control"?
Now who's being disingenuous? You might be arguing for repealing current gun laws, but you're still arguing for gun control.

Quote:
If this happened, I'd be open to actual, reasonable gun laws that had a chance of enhancing public safety without infringing the 2nd - this is possible.
Quote:
Other arguments can and should be made for access to those little fellas but IMO they are fair game for some statutory limits, and lucky enough those sorts of guns also account for the majority of guns used in murders and other violent gun crimes.
Quote:
No, I'm arguing that concealable handguns are far less important to a well regulated militia, and that perhaps from a specifically 2A perspective some minor restrictions on ownership would probably be OK.
Quote:
Taken together, that would be, from both an infringement and a public safety standpoint, where we should look for low hanging fruit.
Quote:
and if we are in a situation where we are infringement free at some time, looking at some restrictions on handguns would be the rational thing to do if we are concerned with public safety.
Quote:
So our current set of infringements are completely wrong, and should be abolished before we even consider entertaining any fresh ones.
Quote:
Does it protect pistols? I would say yes at least to a degree, but the court has said the RKBA is not an absolute. If they are right, pistols are logical as things to regulate.
Quote:
Here is why handguns would be the one thing we MIGHT consider restricting a bit:
Quote:
They are the most used in violent crimes by a wide margin, and gun regs should be about public safety
Reply With Quote
  #282  
Old 04-28-2018, 11:31 AM
Sunday Sunday is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Shasta Co.
Posts: 5,598
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deedle View Post
Couple it with a voter ID? The irony is too good to pass up without savoring it a moment.
Raise the voting age to 25
__________________
California's politicians and government employees are a crime gang that makes the Mexican drug cartels look like a Girl Scout Troop in comparison.
Reply With Quote
  #283  
Old 04-28-2018, 11:39 AM
Deedle Deedle is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 521
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rugershooter View Post
Now who's being disingenuous? You might be arguing for repealing current gun laws, but you're still arguing for gun control.
Here's how it would work, in a nutshell.
  • An adult citizen could buy literally any small arm they wanted using essentially the same process as they would use for buying beer.
  • If, at some point, we decided we wanted to try to enhance public safety with gun restrictions, I would suggest creating a shall issue tax funded handgun permit. This permit would be issued to anyone who can pass a NICS check currently, and this card would entitle the holder to own and carry handguns. In order to take possession of a handgun after this point, the receiver would have to possess this card.

This is incredibly less restrictive than what we currently have in virtually every way, is it not?
__________________
"No personal computer will ever have gigabytes of RAM" - Scott Nudds
Reply With Quote
  #284  
Old 04-28-2018, 11:40 AM
Dragunov's Avatar
Dragunov Dragunov is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: TEXAS and FREEDOM!!
Posts: 1,316
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

NO compromise!!!
Reply With Quote
  #285  
Old 04-28-2018, 11:45 AM
rugershooter rugershooter is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,593
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deedle View Post
Here's how it would work, in a nutshell.
  • An adult citizen could buy literally any small arm they wanted using essentially the same process as they would use for buying beer.
  • If, at some point, we decided we wanted to try to enhance public safety with gun restrictions, I would suggest creating a shall issue tax funded handgun permit. This permit would be issued to anyone who can pass a NICS check currently, and this card would entitle the holder to own and carry handguns. In order to take possession of a handgun after this point, the receiver would have to possess this card.

This is incredibly less restrictive than what we currently have in virtually every way, is it not?
Um. No thanks. I don't like the idea of having a license to buy/possess a gun. F*** that.
Reply With Quote
  #286  
Old 04-28-2018, 11:45 AM
Deedle Deedle is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 521
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragunov View Post
NO compromise!!!
I think that ship has sailed, has it not? Maybe you mean "no further compromise", which I'm on board with.
__________________
"No personal computer will ever have gigabytes of RAM" - Scott Nudds
Reply With Quote
  #287  
Old 04-28-2018, 11:47 AM
Deedle Deedle is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 521
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rugershooter View Post
Um. No thanks. I don't like the idea of having a license to buy/possess a gun. F*** that.
HANDgun.

I don't like it either. What we actually have in America is a problem with releasing people we know are still violent back into the population, among other problems. We should really stop doing that. All I'm saying is that IF we're gonna have gun laws, they should be tailored to be as painless as possible for the law abiding, and as difficult to circumvent as possible for people with bad intentions. Note that if we stopped releasing violent people, everyone would pass NICS ....
__________________
"No personal computer will ever have gigabytes of RAM" - Scott Nudds

Last edited by Deedle; 04-28-2018 at 11:49 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #288  
Old 04-28-2018, 11:48 AM
rugershooter rugershooter is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,593
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deedle View Post
I don't like it either. What we actually have in America is a problem with releasing people we know are still violent back into the population, among other problems. We should really stop doing that.
Then stop being part of the problem and offering up our rights when you know it's a violation and that it won't reduce crime.
Reply With Quote
  #289  
Old 04-28-2018, 11:51 AM
Dragunov's Avatar
Dragunov Dragunov is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: TEXAS and FREEDOM!!
Posts: 1,316
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by eswrite View Post
For a moment, let us set aside the "not one more inch" stance, and let us put on our thinking caps. Could we design a UBC that addresses societal safety concerns while preserving constitutional rights? If so, what provisions, safeguards, and procedures would such a UBC framework implement?
You need to put down the thinking cap and back away slowly, you're not doing so well with it.
Reply With Quote
  #290  
Old 04-28-2018, 11:52 AM
Dragunov's Avatar
Dragunov Dragunov is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: TEXAS and FREEDOM!!
Posts: 1,316
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deedle View Post
I think that ship has sailed, has it not? Maybe you mean "no further compromise", which I'm on board with.
Sort of.... We need to take back what was lost. I see the point you're trying to make though.

That, and abolish the BATFE.

Last edited by Dragunov; 04-28-2018 at 11:57 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #291  
Old 04-28-2018, 11:56 AM
Dragunov's Avatar
Dragunov Dragunov is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: TEXAS and FREEDOM!!
Posts: 1,316
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunday View Post
Raise the voting age to 25
Ok, so both my daughters are in the military. Both have weapons assigned to them. Both are under 25.

Are you going to make exceptions for current, and prior military?

Raise voting age? Forget it.

If you're arguing for a compromise, you've already lost, and you are wasting your time, and mine.

Last edited by Dragunov; 04-28-2018 at 11:59 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #292  
Old 04-28-2018, 11:58 AM
Deedle Deedle is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 521
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rugershooter View Post
Then stop being part of the problem and offering up our rights when you know it's a violation and that it won't reduce crime.
Again, I offer up nothing, I'm saying we need to take back what we have lost before we even consider talking about a new law, and that IF we do, at that distant time, consider new and different gun restrictions it should be based on science and sound risk analysis and not by how frickin' scary something looks.
__________________
"No personal computer will ever have gigabytes of RAM" - Scott Nudds
Reply With Quote
  #293  
Old 04-28-2018, 12:03 PM
dustoff31 dustoff31 is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: AZ
Posts: 8,229
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deedle View Post
Those are weasel words; what we have today, as far as gun control law is the corrupt product of an activist judiciary.
I don't believe I 've ever heard the Constitution described as weasel words. At least not by anyone who claims to support it.


Quote:
The militia is the whole of the adult citizenry, and we know what weapons a modern infantry has at its disposal.
No it's not the whole of the adult citizenry. Read the Constitution. There is quite a list of people exempt from militia service. Are they not entitled to own guns?

Yes, we all know what weapons modern infantry has. Who said you were an infantryman? Congress didn't. Maybe they will decide you are to be a messkit repairman and armed with a snub nose .38 revolver.

Quote:
Just because the right to keep and bear arms is not predicated on military service does not guarantee the inverse, that arms typically used by the infantry are not explicitly protected under the 2nd.

All salmon are fish, but not all fish are salmon, as they say.
We have a right to whatever arms we choose because simply because it's a right. The end. No further justification is required.

Now the right has been infringed on certainly. But IMO the individual right is a much stronger argument than "Well, I might someday need a machine gun to overthrow a tyrannical government."

When we are flailing about, trying to justify why we need to exercise a right, or to exercise it in a particular way, we are losing.
__________________
"Did I say "republic?" By God, yes, I said "republic!" Long live the glorious republic of the United States of America. Damn democracy. It is a fraudulent term used, often by ignorant persons but no less often by intellectual fakers, to describe an infamous mixture of socialism, miscegenation, graft, confiscation of property and denial of personal rights to individuals whose virtuous principles make them offensive." - Westbrook Pegler
Reply With Quote
  #294  
Old 04-28-2018, 12:09 PM
njineermike's Avatar
njineermike njineermike is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: CO
Posts: 9,580
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deedle View Post
"No, I don't think I did without at least some explanatory context that qualifies that. "

"The 2A is specifically about military arms, and while it's true all sorts of arms are used by the military, it's hard to defend the idea that we need unfettered access to 2" snubby revolvers in order to have a well regulated militia."

Come on, that's not so hard to read is it? Don't be disingenuous.
Its not hard to read at all. Youre disqualifying an entire group of firearms based on an incorrect supposition of their applicable use in a military context.
__________________
NRA lifetime member
2AF Defender member

When did I go from being a "citizen" to a "taxpayer"?

Jon Lovitz: I cant wait to go to a hospital run by the DMV!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kestryll View Post
Dude went full CNN...
Reply With Quote
  #295  
Old 04-28-2018, 12:09 PM
Deedle Deedle is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 521
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dustoff31 View Post
No it's not the whole of the adult citizenry.
During colonial times it was essentially the adult males, but I was trying to be generic and equal opportunity. Also, way to miss the point; the 2nd does not say that only the militia is entitled to arms. It says that the militia is essential, and to have a good militia all the (adult) citizens have to be free to own and carry weapons.
__________________
"No personal computer will ever have gigabytes of RAM" - Scott Nudds
Reply With Quote
  #296  
Old 04-28-2018, 12:11 PM
rugershooter rugershooter is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,593
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deedle View Post
Again, I offer up nothing, I'm saying we need to take back what we have lost before we even consider talking about a new law, and that IF we do, at that distant time, consider new and different gun restrictions it should be based on science and sound risk analysis and not by how frickin' scary something looks.
That's the problem. You do want to compromise and say "here's an idea of how we should violate people's gun rights".

It should end here:
Quote:
I'm saying we need to take back what we have lost
Anything else is an infringement.
Reply With Quote
  #297  
Old 04-28-2018, 12:16 PM
njineermike's Avatar
njineermike njineermike is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: CO
Posts: 9,580
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rugershooter View Post
That's the problem. You do want to compromise and say "here's an idea of how we should violate people's gun rights".

It should end here:

Anything else is an infringement.
Exactly.
__________________
NRA lifetime member
2AF Defender member

When did I go from being a "citizen" to a "taxpayer"?

Jon Lovitz: I cant wait to go to a hospital run by the DMV!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kestryll View Post
Dude went full CNN...
Reply With Quote
  #298  
Old 04-28-2018, 12:29 PM
Mute's Avatar
Mute Mute is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Diamond Bar
Posts: 6,420
iTrader: 37 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by njineermike View Post
Its not hard to read at all. Youre disqualifying an entire group of firearms based on an incorrect supposition of their applicable use in a military context.
And this was how we got the God awful US. vs. Miller ruling in 1939 and which anti-gunners continue to misuse to support their contentions about the collective rights nonsense.
__________________
NRA Patron Life Member
NRA Certified Pistol, Rifle & Refuse To Be A Victim Instructor

American Marksman Training Group, LLC
Visit our American Marksman Facebook Page
Diamond Bar CCW Facebook Page
Reply With Quote
  #299  
Old 04-28-2018, 12:32 PM
njineermike's Avatar
njineermike njineermike is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: CO
Posts: 9,580
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mute View Post
And this was how we got the God awful US. vs. Miller ruling in 1939 and which anti-gunners continue to misuse to support their contentions about the collective rights nonsense.
Also an excellent point.
__________________
NRA lifetime member
2AF Defender member

When did I go from being a "citizen" to a "taxpayer"?

Jon Lovitz: I cant wait to go to a hospital run by the DMV!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kestryll View Post
Dude went full CNN...
Reply With Quote
  #300  
Old 04-29-2018, 10:25 AM
MrFancyPants's Avatar
MrFancyPants MrFancyPants is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: El Dorado County
Posts: 190
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kygen View Post
Until your state flips and requires private party transfers through an FFL
Not likely to happen. You do realize that most of the free states are actually passing pro 2A legislation? For example, in the great state of Utah, one has to be 21 to apply for a concealed carry permit. However, the state just passed legislation allowing anybody 18-20 to carry WITHOUT a permit so they can freely exercise their 2A right until such time as they can legally obtain a permit. They are making it easier on pro 2A folks all the time.

Not all states go out of their way to infringe on the rights of its residents.

Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk
Reply With Quote
  #301  
Old 04-30-2018, 4:30 PM
soul soul is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 170
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

There pops another with so called "common sense" gun control, right on election cue.
__________________
Member NRA SAF CRPA FPC

"The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion." - British Statesman
Reply With Quote
  #302  
Old 04-30-2018, 9:38 PM
njineermike's Avatar
njineermike njineermike is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: CO
Posts: 9,580
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by soul View Post
There pops another with so called "common sense" gun control, right on election cue.
It's uncanny. You could almost set your watch to it.
__________________
NRA lifetime member
2AF Defender member

When did I go from being a "citizen" to a "taxpayer"?

Jon Lovitz: I cant wait to go to a hospital run by the DMV!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kestryll View Post
Dude went full CNN...
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 10:34 PM.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Proudly hosted by GeoVario the Premier 2A host.
Calguns.net, the 'Calguns' name and all associated variants and logos are ® Trademark and © Copyright 2002-2018, Calguns.net an Incorporated Company All Rights Reserved.