Anyone reload .35 Rem for a Remington Model 8?

[Ki6vsm]

I'm curious about something. I fired my dad's old Model 8 for the first time recently. Put about 25 rounds of factory loaded Rem 200gr ammo through it. After examining the brass later I discovered that about 25% of the primers were sitting a little proud out of their pockets. Then I started doing research and learned it's far from unheard of. Somebody on the GreatModel8 forum theorized that the spec for the .35 Remington cartridge may have changed. Maybe when Marlin started producing rifles in the caliber. Maybe the shoulder was moved back slightly, which would mean that the modern ammo, including I guess, ammo resized from modern FL dies, will fit in the Model 8's chamber with a little extra room ahead of the shoulder? Anyone ever hear this?

BTW, this doesn't make the modern cartridges dangerous I don't think. Just and annoying thing that would be nice to avoid. I plan to reload for it at some point and it'd be nice to produce ammunition that fits the chamber and doesn't create this proud-primer condition. Maybe not running a FL sizer die down all the way? I have never experimented in this way with reloading.

EDIT to add my pic of some primers:

[bruce381]

Waiting to hear about this also just got a very nice early NOT 8 but Remington auto rifle made in 1908. the 35 in the rifle is said to kick pretty good with a odd recoil effect from the barrel retracting cannot wait to try it out. I have about 10 OLD loaded round but want to save them.

[foesgth]

I would get some cerrosafe from Brownells and cast the chamber. That should prove your theory.

[Ki6vsm]

Originally Posted by foesgth

I would get some cerrosafe from Brownells and cast the chamber. That should prove your theory.

Looks like an interesting idea. And one of the nice things about the Model 8 is the take-down ability. Makes it not too tricky to get near the breach and pour something like that.

Question is what is someone to do with that info, once the chamber is measured? Or could I maybe buy a full length sizing die and send it plus the casting to some specialty shop who'd ream the die to match the (presumably) larger shape? Is that ever done?

And to respond to Bruce, yeah it has an interesting recoil. It's a little more than my Marlin 1894 (44mag) running hotter loads. Your rifle sounds interesting. An early one, before they thought up a model number. Mine was purchased from a shop in TX by my grandfather in 1930. I'm glad he bought the .35 Rem version. If it had been any of the other proprietary Rem calibers I doubt I'd be messing with this rifle at all.

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by Ki6vsm

I plan to reload for it at some point and it'd be nice to produce ammunition that fits the chamber and doesn't create this proud-primer condition. Maybe not running a FL sizer die down all the way? I have never experimented in this way with reloading.

A full length sizing die will usually cause the shoulder to move forward if the die is not set all the way down against the shellholder.
This happens as the case body is squeezed smaller in diameter while the BODY is being resized.

Deprime a few of your fired cases WITHOUT sizing the bodies.
You need to get rid of the primer to measure the shoulder length to the case head WITHOUT the primer effecting the measurement.
Measure the shoulder length with some sort of gauge so you are hitting a mid-point on the case shoulder.
Now full length size with the die left maybe 0.020" off the shellholder and measure the shoulder lengths again with the same gauge.
Report back with results.

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by Ki6vsm

Question is what is someone to do with that info, once the chamber is measured? Or could I maybe buy a full length sizing die and send it plus the casting to some specialty shop who'd ream the die to match the (presumably) larger shape? Is that ever done?

You can simply load with a gap between the shellholder and dies if your press frame is rigid enough to control shoulder length consistently enough for your needs.
If you want them to touch to get more consistent shoulder lengths, you can put a shim between them or add a shim to the bottom of the die.

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by foesgth

I would get some cerrosafe from Brownells and cast the chamber. That should prove your theory.

I have not found cerrosafe helpful in determining shoulder LENGTHS.

What's your method in getting the chamber filled up exactly to the breech face when the breech is open to be able to pour in the cerrosafe?

[pacrat]

Originally Posted by ar15barrels

I have not found cerrosafe helpful in determining shoulder LENGTHS.

What's your method in getting the chamber filled up exactly to the breech face when the breech is open to be able to pour in the cerrosafe?

Cerrosafe is a very good tool for several purposes.

Measuring headspace..............ain't one of em.

OP...........your primers backing out is most likely a "low pressure" indicator. SAAMI max pressure is 33.5k psi, and most load manuals list max loads well below 30k psi for most powders. https://web.archive.org/web/20100602...page%20308.pdf

[Ki6vsm]

Originally Posted by ar15barrels

A full length sizing die will usually cause the shoulder to move forward if the die is not set all the way down against the shellholder.
This happens as the case body is squeezed smaller in diameter while the BODY is being resized.

Deprime a few of your fired cases WITHOUT sizing the bodies.
You need to get rid of the primer to measure the shoulder length to the case head WITHOUT the primer effecting the measurement.
Measure the shoulder length with some sort of gauge so you are hitting a mid-point on the case shoulder.
Now full length size with the die left maybe 0.020" off the shellholder and measure the shoulder lengths again with the same gauge.
Report back with results.

I don't actually have dies for this caliber yet, nor a case gauge. I've always used Lee dies because of their affordable price. Some people poop on them though, saying they're "hard on the brass" etc. Without spending hundreds on some kind of fancy Forster etc match dies, do you have a recommendation what I should use?

For now I could deprime some fired cases and measure them against unfired ammunition; I have 15 left of those before it's "reload" time. And I also have some NEW Hornady brass. No way to know if the new brass requires a sizing though.

A nice thing about the Model 8 is the takedown ability. Makes it easy to fiddle with hand-fitting of brass into the chamber.

One test that just occurred to me, I don't know if it's ever been done or if it would be helpful. I could put a little "Plastigauge" on the front of a shoulder and chamber a round. I even have a broken firing pin I could swap back into the bolt to make discharge 'impossible'. The rifle cycles fine with this old pin; it's tip is just broken off, so no BANG. But I dunno. I don't like putting live ammo into a chamber under non-range conditions. And reading the plastigauge correctly... this exercise might be a lot of hassle and prove nothing.

Originally Posted by ar15barrels

You can simply load with a gap between the shellholder and dies if your press frame is rigid enough to control shoulder length consistently enough for your needs.
If you want them to touch to get more consistent shoulder lengths, you can put a shim between them or add a shim to the bottom of the die.

For this I'd probably need a better press than my handy Lee turret press. The turrets are convenient but they do induce play in the up/down direction. I've got a Lee SS press that is a more rigid device. And I've also been eyeing turret presses of cast iron from other mfrs, much sturdier they seem to be.

Originally Posted by pacrat

OP...........your primers backing out is most likely a "low pressure" indicator. SAAMI max pressure is 33.5k psi, and most load manuals list max loads well below 30k psi for most powders. https://web.archive.org/web/20100602...page%20308.pdf

Thanks. I didn't chrono my shots with this Rem factory hunting ammo. Wishing I had now. But the ammo cycled the rifle just fine and I did get lock-back on last round each time. I would not expect light ammo to do do this in such a complicated mechanism. As an aside, when my friend was firing the rifle, he got a double-fire on the last two rounds in the mag. Slam fire maybe? I'll have to pull out the bolt some time and see if I installed a firing-pin spring. These rifles didn't come with them originally until very late in the production run. But Numrich's sells springs, so I bought one. I think I installed it but I can't recall for sure now.

I actually googled this issue again. The search came back with tons of questions and issue on the topic. I guess it's not terribly uncommon for various possible reasons. Like loose chamber in combination with light load, etc. It's probably nothing to worry about. It's a very old hunting rifle that won't see the same use as my ARs and Marlins.

[Ki6vsm]

Random question. Anyone know what a form-and-trim die does exactly, and if I'd want one? Looks like is re-sizes just the base of the case?

https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.c...m-and-trim-die

I was thinking maybe combining this with a neck sizer die would be one possible solution.

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by Ki6vsm

Random question. Anyone know what a form-and-trim die does exactly, and if I'd want one? Looks like is re-sizes just the base of the case?

https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.c...m-and-trim-die

I was thinking maybe combining this with a neck sizer die would be one possible solution.

Same as a file trim die.
It's a full length sizer without an expander that is the same length as a case.
You push a case into it and then file off whatever is sticking out of the top.

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by pacrat

OP...........your primers backing out is most likely a "low pressure" indicator.

You still need to have excessive headspace for there to be ROOM for the primer to hang out of the case.

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by Ki6vsm

I don't actually have dies for this caliber yet, nor a case gauge. I've always used Lee dies because of their affordable price. Some people poop on them though, saying they're "hard on the brass" etc. Without spending hundreds on some kind of fancy Forster etc match dies, do you have a recommendation what I should use?

I prefer RCBS dies when I don't need Redding match dies.
Setup an ebay watch for "rcbs 35 rem dies" and they will eventually pop up for less than a new set of Lee dies.

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fro...&LH_Complete=1

[Ki6vsm]

Originally Posted by ar15barrels

I prefer RCBS dies when I don't need Redding match dies.
Setup an ebay watch for "rcbs 35 rem dies" and they will eventually pop up for less than a new set of Lee dies.

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fro...&LH_Complete=1

Boy, there is no shortage of used 35 Rem dies is there? RCBS, Redding, etc. Thanks for the tip. Sounds like the way to go.

BTW, I did see a set of "vintage" Pacific dies on there. For really cheap. I've read they were great dies. The predecessor to Hornady? Or Hornady bought them out way back when? They might be fitting for my old rifle, so I contacted the seller (auction had ended with no bidders).

[kcstott]

Originally Posted by Ki6vsm

Boy, there is no shortage of used 35 Rem dies is there? RCBS, Redding, etc. Thanks for the tip. Sounds like the way to go.

BTW, I did see a set of "vintage" Pacific dies on there. For really cheap. I've read they were great dies. The predecessor to Hornady? Or Hornady bought them out way back when? They might be fitting for my old rifle, so I contacted the seller (auction had ended with no bidders).

Be careful they may need to be refurbished as in polished or buffed.

[Ki6vsm]

Originally Posted by kcstott

Be careful they may need to be refurbished as in polished or buffed.

I considered that. I have all the tools for that if it ends up being needed. The guy said they were his own dies that he bought new and used a lot. And that they were in usable shape with the look of age but no rust or pitting.

So we'll see if he even writes back. He was only asking $8 for the two dies. I figured for that price it might be worth a risk. I'll give it a week then maybe pick up a used RCBS set.

I still need to buy some bullets.


.

[bigdawg86]

My Marlin 336 35 Rem does the same thing... at first I thought it was hot reloads, but found it had similar issues with factory ammo. That gun hasn't left the safe in 3-4 years so I can't say I have fixed the problem. I was using IMR 3131.

[Ki6vsm]

^^^ Thanks for the info. I don't think I'll worry about it then. I have a couple of powders to try. Probably start with IMR 4064.

[pacrat]

Originally Posted by ar15barrels

You still need to have excessive headspace for there to be ROOM for the primer to hang out of the case.

Not necessarily correct. New factory ammo is typically made to min. SAAMI spec so it will function in all factory firearms.

SAAMI spec for HS is typically +/- .oo5" to datum, for a factory chamber. Only if primers are protruding "more" than .010" would it be a definitive excess HS issue.

Originally Posted by bigdawg86

My Marlin 336 35 Rem does the same thing... at first I thought it was hot reloads, but found it had similar issues with factory ammo. That gun hasn't left the safe in 3-4 years so I can't say I have fixed the problem. I was using IMR 3131.

If it was a "high pressure" issue due to "hot reloads". The primers would not be protruding. The cases would have stretched and re-seated the primers.

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by Ki6vsm

Originally Posted by pacrat

Only if primers are protruding "more" than .010" would it be a definitive excess HS issue..

They are.

[pacrat]

They are.

Are they? I can't measure a picture. And after running the numbers, from specs, instead of just paraphrasing. The figure opens just a bit, to .0117" for the 35 Rem.

https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads...sting-Copy.pdf

And either way. OP was correct that it is not an unsafe happening. And already figured what needs doing to resolve.

BTW, this doesn't make the modern cartridges dangerous I don't think. Just and annoying thing that would be nice to avoid. I plan to reload for it at some point and it'd be nice to produce ammunition that fits the chamber and doesn't create this proud-primer condition. Maybe not running a FL sizer die down all the way? I have never experimented in this way with reloading.

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by pacrat

Are they? I can't measure a picture.

I can.
Those primers are sticking up over 15 thousandths.
More like 18 really.

[Ki6vsm]

LOL okay guys. I will measure them and report back. They're still in the box, not yet decapped.

BTW, I'd also posted a mention in someone else's thread on this forum a whle back, where the subject was being discussed. And it's suggested in there that due to this situation, i.e., brass not stretching in a largeish chamber, a person might get away with just neck sizing. A Lee neck-sizing die isn't too expensive and might be had on the used market. Might be worth exploring.

http://thegreatmodel8.remingtonsocie...0ca1dfcf640732

[Ki6vsm]

Okay... I just took a stroll out to the garage and measured the primer protrusion. The two most prominent primers were proud by.... 0.016".

And... 0.018". According to my best ability to measure them with my dial caliper. Well done Randall.

[Ki6vsm]

And my pic wasn't even in focus.

[ar15barrels]

When you work in a machine shop every day for many years, you gain the ability to measure things without even measuring them.

[Ki6vsm]

A friend of mine, also a machinist, that has over many years become a rather accomplished metal sculptor in VT used to say that he had "micrometer-vision".

[foesgth]

Handloader has an article on loading for the model 8

https://www.handloadermagazine.com/bench-topics-0

I don't think it requires a login. If it does let me know and I will get it to you.

[Ki6vsm]

Originally Posted by foesgth

Handloader has an article on loading for the model 8

https://www.handloadermagazine.com/bench-topics-0

I don't think it requires a login. If it does let me know and I will get it to you.

Thank you! No need for a login. Nice article. So He said that faster powders are recommended. Most of my rifle powders are on the faster end of the scale because I load for 5.56 mostly. And .303BR. No magnum cartridges. I was going to start with IMR4064. He mentioned IMR4198 worked well for 180gr bullets. I have some of that as well, though no light bullets. I am planning to stick with the standard 200gr RNs.

He also said that the Model 8 tends to be easy on brass, which is interesting. Fine to full size it each time? I'm surprised at that I guess. I wonder if that's a thing or if he is basing it on his experience with his particular rifle.

Also has me wondering, I hadn't though seriously about how to crimp these rounds, but I like the idea and the bullets do have a cannelure. I don't know how to crimp bottleneck bullets outside of using a Lee factory crimp die. Should I buy one, or is there a way to roll-crimp them etc using a standard FL die? I've never heard of anyone doing that. Time to consult my Lyman Reloading Manual!