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  #1  
Old 10-18-2018, 2:31 PM
ndekens ndekens is offline
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Default Cool video on the end times.

Found this cool video about the endtimes:

https://youtu.be/guTes8e1bss
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  #2  
Old 10-18-2018, 3:10 PM
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This won't end well.
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Old 10-18-2018, 3:13 PM
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waste of bandwidth
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In this life you either push or get shoved.

Better to die on your feet then live on your knees.

For evil to succeed, all it takes is for good men to do nothing.
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Old 10-18-2018, 3:40 PM
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The endings the best part!
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Old 10-19-2018, 11:29 AM
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The endings the best part!
The ending ..... of the movie or the world?
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  #6  
Old 10-19-2018, 12:16 PM
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Too long
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  #7  
Old 10-20-2018, 2:59 PM
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I'll be out of here, either death or pre-trib, pre-mill rapture (1 Thes. 4:13-18).

Jesus Christ. Don't leave earth without Him!
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Old 10-20-2018, 6:37 PM
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Thats cool...Rev 7:14.
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Old 10-22-2018, 9:49 AM
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Apocalyptic literature (end of Daniel, Zechariah, Revelation) is always less about the future and more about the present day of the author & audience. Learn the setting in all its details and you'll understand the imagery more than you ever could trying to imagine the future. In many cases, the imagery is borrowed from a previous author or even another culture/religion but then given new meaning in its present day. For example, Jesus's epic battle with Satan in Revelation is borrowed from the Canaanite story of Ba'al's battle with Yam, the dragon from the deep. The son of God (Ba'al is the son of El) does battle with the dragon from the deep ("Yam" = "Sea" in Hebrew). John's reinterpretation is interesting in its Christian context. I don't know how much he would have known about Canaanite mythology but Zechariah would have definitely known a bit and John borrows a lot from Zechariah, if I remember correctly.

It's always about giving hope to people who are under incredible stress to encourage them to keep going. It's never about fortune telling so much as providing hope and a reason to endure hardship experienced today. The details aren't even all that important, really. It's the message -- keep going!
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Old 10-22-2018, 10:23 AM
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The video is titled
Quote:
'After the Tribulation The Pre Tribulation Rapture Fraud Exposed'
The "Great Tribulation" aka "The Time of Jacob's Trouble" aka "Daniel's 70th week" is a time of God's wrath.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 "For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our LORD Jesus Christ."

The Christian is the church is The Bride of Christ.

Christ is not a wife beater.

Back to the subject video, the farce that Darby came up with the concept of a "secret" rapture or even THE rapture has been refuted with historical evidence showing the church fathers talking about it from New Testament time to before Darby. The proof is in Scripture, not man.
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Old 10-22-2018, 11:08 AM
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The Coming of the Son of Man

29“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The Bible explicitly states that He returns after the Tribulation. Not before.
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Old 10-22-2018, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Kokopelli View Post
The video is titled

The "Great Tribulation" aka "The Time of Jacob's Trouble" aka "Daniel's 70th week" is a time of God's wrath.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 "For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our LORD Jesus Christ."

The Christian is the church is The Bride of Christ.

Christ is not a wife beater.

Back to the subject video, the farce that Darby came up with the concept of a "secret" rapture or even THE rapture has been refuted with historical evidence showing the church fathers talking about it from New Testament time to before Darby. The proof is in Scripture, not man.

Except Gods wrath is not the same as the tribulation.

There are multiple verses stating Jesus comes after the tribulation such as Matt 24:29.
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Old 10-22-2018, 1:00 PM
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Originally Posted by ndekens View Post
Except Gods wrath is not the same as the tribulation.
The tribe is no picnic party. God will judge the nations, nations that will no longer exist after the trib.

Quote:
There are multiple verses stating Jesus comes after the tribulation such as Matt 24:29.
No one knows when Jesus will rapture the church. If it is after the trib, you would know he returns in 7 years, contrary to scripture. If mid trib, you know it’s in 3.5 years. No one knows. The only way is works out is a pre trib rapture of the church.
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Old 10-22-2018, 1:10 PM
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Correct no one knows. But since the scriptues specifically say Immediately after", it can't be pre-trib.
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Old 10-22-2018, 5:01 PM
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The Coming of the Son of Man

29“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The Bible explicitly states that He returns after the Tribulation. Not before.
That's the 2nd Coming of Christ which is different than the Rapture (1 Thess 4:13-17).

Every covenant theology theologian that I know admits that if you use a consistent, literal, grammatical, hermeneutic, you get a pre-trib rapture. IOW, they admit that you have to allegorize Scripture to get anything else.
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Old 10-22-2018, 5:17 PM
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That's the 2nd Coming of Christ which is different than the Rapture (1 Thess 4:13-17).

Every covenant theology theologian that I know admits that if you use a consistent, literal, grammatical, hermeneutic, you get a pre-trib rapture. IOW, they admit that you have to allegorize Scripture to get anything else.
If Matt 24 is not the rapture then who are the elect he is coming to gather?
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Old 10-22-2018, 6:33 PM
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If Matt 24 is not the rapture then who are the elect he is coming to gather?
The elect are those saved after the Rapture. All Christians are elect, but the Rapture will take up the church (the dead in Christ after Pentecost through to Christians alive at the time of the Rapture).
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Old 10-22-2018, 8:02 PM
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The elect are those saved after the Rapture. All Christians are elect, but the Rapture will take up the church (the dead in Christ after Pentecost through to Christians alive at the time of the Rapture).
So if the second coming is Matt 24 then why does 1 Thess 4:15 call the rapture the coming of the Lord ?

“For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. ”
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Old 10-23-2018, 5:21 AM
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Originally Posted by billvau View Post
That's the 2nd Coming of Christ which is different than the Rapture (1 Thess 4:13-17).

Every covenant theology theologian that I know admits that if you use a consistent, literal, grammatical, hermeneutic, you get a pre-trib rapture. IOW, they admit that you have to allegorize Scripture to get anything else.
Not a chance. No theologian read it that way throughout the history of the church. Pre-mil rapture is a brand new thing on the history timeline. If we are already in the millenium then it would have already happened.
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Old 10-23-2018, 6:19 AM
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Not a chance. No theologian read it that way throughout the history of the church. Pre-mil rapture is a brand new thing on the history timeline. If we are already in the millenium then it would have already happened.
First, time and church history are NOT a hermeneutic. Study the Bible. How can pre-mil rapture be brand new when it is in the Bible? It's older than your Reformers. Great men, used greatly by God, but not a hermeneutic.

The reformers were VERY weak in their eschatology. But the Bible isn't. That's why I was very careful to describe the correct hermeneutic - the one that studies the Bible correctly.

If you believe we are in the Millennium, then again, your hermeneutic is a VERY bad one. The Bible teaches a future, very literal 1000 year Millennium with Christ here reigning on earth! That hasn't happened yet. You have to do a LOT of allegorizing to take ALL the references to 1000 years in Revelation 20 and make them "a long time!" Especially when there are verses like v.3 that give comparative time references like "a short time" so that we know 1000 is specific.

As Jesus prayed to the Father, "Sanctify them in the truth, Your word is truth. " (John 17:17).

I'll stick with the truth, thank-you. Read my footnote.
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Old 10-23-2018, 6:26 AM
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So if the second coming is Matt 24 then why does 1 Thess 4:15 call the rapture the coming of the Lord ?

“For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. ”
Because the Lord Jesus Christ does, indeed, return personally to take up the Church.

1 Thess. 4:13-18, with John 14:1–3; 1 Cor. 15:51, 52, make up the biblical basis for “the Rapture” of the church. However, when other texts such as Rev. 3:10; John 14:3 are studied with the texts about Christ’s coming in judgment (Matt. 13:34–50; 24:29–44; Rev. 19:11–21) at the end of the seven year tribulation, there is a clear difference with the “Rapture” in that there is no mention of any judgment, while the other texts highlight judgment. The Rapture is pre-tribulational (before the wrath of God in Rev. 6–19).
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Old 10-23-2018, 6:42 AM
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Because the Lord Jesus Christ does, indeed, return personally to take up the Church.

1 Thess. 4:13-18, with John 14:1–3; 1 Cor. 15:51, 52, make up the biblical basis for “the Rapture” of the church. However, when other texts such as Rev. 3:10; John 14:3 are studied with the texts about Christ’s coming in judgment (Matt. 13:34–50; 24:29–44; Rev. 19:11–21) at the end of the seven year tribulation, there is a clear difference with the “Rapture” in that there is no mention of any judgment, while the other texts highlight judgment. The Rapture is pre-tribulational (before the wrath of God in Rev. 6–19).
Where does the Bible say the Wrath of God is the Tribulation?
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Old 10-23-2018, 6:42 AM
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First, time and church history are NOT a hermeneutic. Study the Bible. How can pre-mil rapture be brand new when it is in the Bible? It's older than your Reformers. Great men, used greatly by God, but not a hermeneutic.

The reformers were VERY weak in their eschatology. But the Bible isn't. That's why I was very careful to describe the correct hermeneutic - the one that studies the Bible correctly.

If you believe we are in the Millennium, then again, your hermeneutic is a VERY bad one. The Bible teaches a future, very literal 1000 year Millennium with Christ here reigning on earth! That hasn't happened yet. You have to do a LOT of allegorizing to take ALL the references to 1000 years in Revelation 20 and make them "a long time!" Especially when there are verses like v.3 that give comparative time references like "a short time" so that we know 1000 is specific.

As Jesus prayed to the Father, "Sanctify them in the truth, Your word is truth. " (John 17:17).

I'll stick with the truth, thank-you. Read my footnote.
It is nowhere to be found in the Bible. That's why almost no denominations of Christianity except American Evangelicals believe it.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me".

If Jesus has been given all power then Satan has no power. He is chained until the end. The only thing left is that he be loosed for little while. We're already in the millenium. And once agian the Bible says that "immediately after". Adding or subtracting from the scriptures is a big no no. Read the Bible.
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Old 10-23-2018, 8:10 AM
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Where does the Bible say the Wrath of God is the Tribulation?
The book of Revelation, chapters 1-3 are addressed to the churches of the church age. Chapter 4 begins with John, in allegory representing the church, is called up into heaven. (The Rapture.) The church is never again mentioned after that.

An unknown period of time elapses until the seals of judgement are opened in chapter 6. Then the plagues and destruction foretold by the prophets of old comes to fruition upon the whole earth.

Quote:
Revelation 6:16
They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!

Revelation 6:17
For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”
Revelation 7:14 describes the death of some saints who died in "the tribulation". What tribulation? The wrath that began in Revelation 6.

Quote:
Revelation 7:13-15 New International Version (NIV)

13 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”

14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”

And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore,

“they are before the throne of God
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne
will shelter them with his presence.
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Old 10-23-2018, 3:24 PM
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It is nowhere to be found in the Bible. That's why almost no denominations of Christianity except American Evangelicals believe it.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me".

If Jesus has been given all power then Satan has no power. He is chained until the end. The only thing left is that he be loosed for little while. We're already in the millenium. And once agian the Bible says that "immediately after". Adding or subtracting from the scriptures is a big no no. Read the Bible.
Sorry, but as I explained above, with a proper hermeneutic, it's in Scripture. We just like to use the name "Rapture" from the latin word used for "caught-up" in 1 Thess. 4:17. By the way, if you want to know what is going to happen at the Rapture, read 1 Thess. 4:13-17.

You really think that church history is a hermeneutic? Ugh. When you constantly make those comments, all we hear is, "He doesn't know the Bible and worships church history." The belief in the Rapture goes all the way back to the Bible. That's all I need to know. There's been a LOT more wrong theology in history than right theology. Amillennialism is a perfect example.

Matt 28:18 says "authority." You change that to power. Nice hermeneutic. "Authority" refers to sovereign authority. Sovereign authority has ALWAYS been with God. Jesus was saying it here to confirm His deity. God's Sovereign authority has never been shared with anyone.

BUT, power is different. Under God's sovereign authority, power has been given to Satan. Ever read Job, especially Job 1-2? God allowed Satan to test Job. But as we like to say, Satan is on a leash controlled by God.

Sooooo, if you believe that Satan is "chained up until the end," then you make Peter and the Holy Spirit liars.

1 Peter 5:8 Be of sober spirit, be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. 9 But resist him, firm in your faith, knowing that the same experiences of suffering are being accomplished by your brethren who are in the world.

And, James must be a liar too:

James 4:7 Submit therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.

Paul must be a liar too! And, I don't have to worry about anger since the devil won't have an opportunity (according to you):

Eph4:26 BE ANGRY, AND yet DO NOT SIN; do not let the sun go down on your anger, 27 and do not give the devil an opportunity.

And, finally, I can take off all that heavy armor! "Schemes of the devil" was just fake news from Paul:

Eph6:11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.

Satan has power, be sure of that. He does NOT have sovereign authority nor sovereign power nor sovereignty of any kind. He's real, and he's roaming round, but probably spending most of his time with Joel Osteen and Benny Hinn.

No, we're not in the Millennium. Good hermeneutics will show you that. If the Rapture comes during our lifetime, I'll look for you because I'll want to see the wonderful joy on your face as you rise in the air to meet your Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Maranatha!
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Old 10-23-2018, 7:53 PM
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Sorry, but as I explained above, with a proper hermeneutic, it's in Scripture. We just like to use the name "Rapture" from the latin word used for "caught-up" in 1 Thess. 4:17. By the way, if you want to know what is going to happen at the Rapture, read 1 Thess. 4:13-17.

You really think that church history is a hermeneutic? Ugh. When you constantly make those comments, all we hear is, "He doesn't know the Bible and worships church history." The belief in the Rapture goes all the way back to the Bible. That's all I need to know. There's been a LOT more wrong theology in history than right theology. Amillennialism is a perfect example.

Matt 28:18 says "authority." You change that to power. Nice hermeneutic. "Authority" refers to sovereign authority. Sovereign authority has ALWAYS been with God. Jesus was saying it here to confirm His deity. God's Sovereign authority has never been shared with anyone.

BUT, power is different. Under God's sovereign authority, power has been given to Satan. Ever read Job, especially Job 1-2? God allowed Satan to test Job. But as we like to say, Satan is on a leash controlled by God.

Sooooo, if you believe that Satan is "chained up until the end," then you make Peter and the Holy Spirit liars.

1 Peter 5:8 Be of sober spirit, be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. 9 But resist him, firm in your faith, knowing that the same experiences of suffering are being accomplished by your brethren who are in the world.

And, James must be a liar too:

James 4:7 Submit therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.

Paul must be a liar too! And, I don't have to worry about anger since the devil won't have an opportunity (according to you):

Eph4:26 BE ANGRY, AND yet DO NOT SIN; do not let the sun go down on your anger, 27 and do not give the devil an opportunity.

And, finally, I can take off all that heavy armor! "Schemes of the devil" was just fake news from Paul:

Eph6:11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.

Satan has power, be sure of that. He does NOT have sovereign authority nor sovereign power nor sovereignty of any kind. He's real, and he's roaming round, but probably spending most of his time with Joel Osteen and Benny Hinn.

No, we're not in the Millennium. Good hermeneutics will show you that. If the Rapture comes during our lifetime, I'll look for you because I'll want to see the wonderful joy on your face as you rise in the air to meet your Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Maranatha!
Pastor Bill, What kinda church do you Pastor?
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Old 10-24-2018, 6:40 AM
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Pastor Bill, What kinda church do you Pastor?
An elder-driven church just like the Pastoral Epistles describe. Nothing special, no affiliations, etc. Just trying to be what the NT teaches for the local church!
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Old 10-24-2018, 6:45 AM
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Yes the word "rapture" is there. But there is no basis whatsoever for a pre-trib rapture. Again, the Bible says “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

You can twist the Scriptures any way you want. But you can't say the Bible doesn't say "immediately after".
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Old 10-24-2018, 7:00 AM
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Yes the word "rapture" is there. But there is no basis whatsoever for a pre-trib rapture. Again, the Bible says “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

You can twist the Scriptures any way you want. But you can't say the Bible doesn't say "immediately after".
Wow, I've given plenty of biblical basis above for the Rapture, yet you insist on making bold, absolute pronouncements that there is no basis. At the same time you have only countered my basis with church history.

All your verse above shows is that the 2nd Coming of Christ is after the Tribulation (read your verse!). This is when He comes to earth to establish His Millennial kingdom. The Rapture is a separate event BEFORE the Tribulation. And, when the REAL Millennium occurs, Jesus Christ will be here on earth reigning for 1000 years (read your Bible!). Your verse says NOTHING about the Rapture unless you are confusing the 2nd Coming with the Rapture. Like I said before, your "source" of authority, reformers, did not have a well-developed, biblical eschatology. Try the Bible instead (John 17:17).

Yet, you seem to think we're in the Millennium. Well..... I haven't seen Christ around reigning NOR all the prophecies of the Millennium being fulfilled.

Of course, you did not biblically refute all the problems I pointed out above where you make the Holy Spirit and the author of Scriptures liars...
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Old 10-24-2018, 8:07 AM
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I love it. A direct quote from Scripture has "no basis". Keep preachin it brother.
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Old 10-24-2018, 8:31 AM
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I love it. A direct quote from Scripture has "no basis". Keep preachin it brother.
You're dodging like crazy and everybody sees it. I like written posts because they often tell us more about the poster than what they post. You're a perfect example.

Now how about dealing with my refutation of your Matthew verse instead of playing games with my posts?

We're ALL waiting to see if you know the Bible, in context, or if you just like to quote reformers and dodge and dance when the Bible is presented and/or your proof-texting is refuted.

In Christ,
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Old 10-24-2018, 8:32 AM
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No one is waiting Bill.
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Old 10-24-2018, 8:38 AM
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No one is waiting Bill.
You haven't seen my private messages then.

EVERYONE sees the games that you play because you don't know the Bible and hold onto beliefs merely because you read only what you want to read about the Bible.

We're waiting for you to be a Christian "elder" as you claim and put together something biblically-based like Luther did. Read my footnote below.

In Christ,
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Old 10-24-2018, 8:55 AM
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Hillarious. I'm not going to entertain any more of your temper tantrums. Happens every time someone refutes you.
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Old 10-24-2018, 9:11 AM
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Wow. I’m not seeming any games. Classy move, however, bringing in the elder issue.
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Old 10-24-2018, 9:40 AM
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Hillarious. I'm not going to entertain any more of your temper tantrums. Happens every time someone refutes you.
Oh my.

"Hillarious," "temper tantrums" = personal attacks. Thanks. Actually not true either, but this personally attacking is a worldly progression to handle conflict when backed in a corner. Not an elder move, though. You have never gotten me angry. I don't give up the fruit of the Spirit (Gal. 5:22-23) for your comments. I just deal with them biblically as I do everyone else's and then move on. I'm gentler with those who don't say that they are pastors, elders, etc. James 3:1 doesn't apply to them.

"Every time someone refutes you." Do you want me to post an interlaced version of our posts and show you that not only are you the one refuted, but that you didn't deal with 99% of my comments back to you? I don't think so. They are all there for everyone else to see that this is not a true statement by any means.

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Old 10-24-2018, 12:00 PM
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You're dodging like crazy and everybody sees it. I like written posts because they often tell us more about the poster than what they post. You're a perfect example.

Now how about dealing with my refutation of your Matthew verse instead of playing games with my posts?

We're ALL waiting to see if you know the Bible, in context, or if you just like to quote reformers and dodge and dance when the Bible is presented and/or your proof-texting is refuted.

In Christ,
Sorry Bill. This is a personal attack. As soon as you put "you in it is a personal attack. Until I pointed out your temper tantrum I never brought "you" up. You were adaquately refuted in posts 11,14,18,23, and 28. The Bible speaks for itself.
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Old 10-24-2018, 12:50 PM
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Sorry Bill. This is a personal attack. As soon as you put "you in it is a personal attack. Until I pointed out your temper tantrum I never brought "you" up. You were adaquately refuted in posts 11,14,18,23, and 28. The Bible speaks for itself.
Oh my again and again. No, putting "you" in a post does not make it a personal attack! This is a new one I've never heard!

I was not "refuted" by you since you didn't deal with the content of my posts. And, it was pointed out to you that you mis-interpreted Matthew's use of authority as "power."

Now you can do as you promised and walk away from the thread.

In Christ,
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Old 10-24-2018, 4:31 PM
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Bill, you really come off as pompous and arrogant. I agree with you when you tell people to refute you Biblically. No issues there. But why not leave it at that? In your last post, you ended by telling Ramclap that he could now walk away from the post as promised, and finished with a “God Bless.” Do you really believe that is a Christ-like attitude? Aren’t you intentionally provoking him? I enjoy the the debates, but your snide comments really turn me off. Disappointing.
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Old 10-24-2018, 4:51 PM
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Bill, you really come off as pompous and arrogant. I agree with you when you tell people to refute you Biblically. No issues there. But why not leave it at that? In your last post, you ended by telling Ramclap that he could now walk away from the post as promised, and finished with a “God Bless.” Do you really believe that is a Christ-like attitude? Aren’t you intentionally provoking him? I enjoy the the debates, but your snide comments really turn me off. Disappointing.
IMO, Bill was not being "snide".
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