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Centerfire Rifles - Manually Operated Lever action, bolt action or other non gas operated centerfire rifles.

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  #41  
Old 11-01-2018, 11:13 AM
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How about better shot placement next time? With modern bullets, elk aren't bulletproof.
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Giving lewdogg21 advice on hunting. That’s like David Hogg giving advice to the NRA.
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Disagree. Been trying to teach lewdogg21 how to hunt. It's like trying to teach Steve Wonder how to see. Not sure we're ever going to get there.
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  #42  
Old 11-01-2018, 11:33 AM
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Dads advice was "when they look at you, shoot them in the eye", which explained why I grew up seeing a bunch of one-eyed critters hanging from the shop rafters every year.
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  #43  
Old 11-01-2018, 4:04 PM
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I think the issue in this thread has to do with very different levels of hunting and shooting skills. Good advice can become bad advice when given to the wrong skill set. If you have problems dropping an elk at normal range backing up and going larger caliber might not be the best answer.

I’d vote for keeping the same caliber and getting closer and start making better shots. Even if you blow a few stalks they are all good lessons. Animals don’t need to drop dead every time. It’s OK to have to track an animal a bit. It’s part of the skill set.

Once you have that dialed by all means get a .338 with some good glass and engage at 600 yards plus.

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  #44  
Old 11-01-2018, 7:02 PM
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Originally Posted by LynnJr View Post
This buck was shot and killed this year at 844 yards using a BillyGoat Machine 338 Norma Ackley Improved.
If it shot 1 moa I would put a new barrel on it.
And go to any local range two weeks before season opens and let me know how the groups are doing for the average hunter.
I regularly take 400 yard shots at ground squirrels with my 700 Remington in 22.250
But I usaly set up with sand bags off a table or the hood of a truck to get that 1/2 inch MOA or better that is needed.
I've taken deer very effectively with the same rifle but with deer in the area I hunt you are just not presented a shot at a deer with more then a tree branch possibly, prone is out because of the grass or ground cover.
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  #45  
Old 11-01-2018, 11:26 PM
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Originally Posted by BillyGoatMachine View Post
Long range hunting is like Donald Trump, either you hate it or practice it.
Well said, good enough for signature line.
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  #46  
Old 11-02-2018, 1:09 AM
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Weatherby makes great rifles guaranteed sub MOA. I have a Vanguard 2 in 30-06, Vanguard 2 Range Certified in 300 Win. Both shoot under 3/4” EZ. I just purchased the mark 5 Arroyo in 300 Win and 338-378 RC Arroyo. Great looking. Sighted in the 300 Arroyo last weekend, 3/4 MOA. I used to have the Weatherby 30-378 (tack driver) but foolishly sold it years ago. I went to the 338-378 for a larger/heavy bullet with all copper in CA, the larger caliber should help. 338-378 is also 100 ft per second faster then the Lapua. I have shot animals with a 30 caliber mag. where I wish I had a larger caliber. I don’t have to wish anymore with the 338-378, all I have to do is pray for that $2,000. Scope it needs. There are some animals in Alaska and TX that need 338.
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  #47  
Old 11-02-2018, 7:37 AM
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Originally Posted by deckhandmike View Post
I think the issue in this thread has to do with very different levels of hunting and shooting skills. Good advice can become bad advice when given to the wrong skill set. If you have problems dropping an elk at normal range backing up and going larger caliber might not be the best answer.

I’d vote for keeping the same caliber and getting closer and start making better shots. Even if you blow a few stalks they are all good lessons. Animals don’t need to drop dead every time. It’s OK to have to track an animal a bit. It’s part of the skill set.

Once you have that dialed by all means get a .338 with some good glass and engage at 600 yards plus.
Hunting is much different than game sniping. Hunting requires myriad skills.

BTW, NRA and Safari Club have condemned game sniping. You can search engine it.

The very real fear is law designed to proscribe game sniping can be applied to legitimate hunting; e.g., limits on scope magnification, legal cartridges, etc.

Theory of killing an animal at a thousand and reality are vastly different. At Rocky Mountain altitude where oxygen is sparse, a 400 yard shot is far. My elk guide wouldn't allow me to shoot over 250 yards. He's exceptionally skillful at getting his hunters under a buck fifty.
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  #48  
Old 11-02-2018, 7:40 AM
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Originally Posted by tsmithson View Post
Weatherby makes great rifles guaranteed sub MOA. I have a Vanguard 2 in 30-06, Vanguard 2 Range Certified in 300 Win. Both shoot under 3/4” EZ. I just purchased the mark 5 Arroyo in 300 Win and 338-378 RC Arroyo. Great looking. Sighted in the 300 Arroyo last weekend, 3/4 MOA. I used to have the Weatherby 30-378 (tack driver) but foolishly sold it years ago. I went to the 338-378 for a larger/heavy bullet with all copper in CA, the larger caliber should help. 338-378 is also 100 ft per second faster then the Lapua. I have shot animals with a 30 caliber mag. where I wish I had a larger caliber. I don’t have to wish anymore with the 338-378, all I have to do is pray for that $2,000. Scope it needs. There are some animals in Alaska and TX that need 338.
Correctly me if it's changed: the '06 is ubiquitous among Eskimos. I believe it's all they use for everything including polar bear.

Inuit, being Canadian, use the .303 British.
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  #49  
Old 11-02-2018, 7:44 AM
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Your guide has seen his clients ability over many years and understands that if they where given a gun set-up by Tony Boyer himself that most couldn't hit an elephant locked inside of a Volkswagen beetle with two boxes of ammo while sitting in the passenger seat.
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  #50  
Old 11-02-2018, 7:45 AM
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The world record moose was converted to freezer space by a .303 British.

It's all about what a bullet destroys.

https://www.boone-crockett.org/news/...ory.asp?ID=186
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  #51  
Old 11-02-2018, 8:14 AM
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https://grabagun.com/ruger-k1s-med-s...-ss-wd-24.html
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  #52  
Old 11-02-2018, 9:27 AM
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Originally Posted by EMP3 View Post
Correctly me if it's changed: the '06 is ubiquitous among Eskimos. I believe it's all they use for everything including polar bear.

Inuit, being Canadian, use the .303 British.
That's because they're poor. You don't think they'd rather have something better given a choice?
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  #53  
Old 11-02-2018, 9:37 AM
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Originally Posted by EMP3 View Post
Hunting is much different than game sniping. Hunting requires myriad skills.

BTW, NRA and Safari Club have condemned game sniping. You can search engine it.

The very real fear is law designed to proscribe game sniping can be applied to legitimate hunting; e.g., limits on scope magnification, legal cartridges, etc.

Theory of killing an animal at a thousand and reality are vastly different. At Rocky Mountain altitude where oxygen is sparse, a 400 yard shot is far. My elk guide wouldn't allow me to shoot over 250 yards. He's exceptionally skillful at getting his hunters under a buck fifty.
Actually it’s the opposite effect. High altitude makes longer shots more forgiving... same with temperature. High air temps generally make longer shots flatter.

I’m not advocating long shots on game, just clarifying.
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  #54  
Old 11-02-2018, 2:39 PM
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Originally Posted by BillyGoatCrawler View Post
Actually it’s the opposite effect. High altitude makes longer shots more forgiving... same with temperature. High air temps generally make longer shots flatter.

I’m not advocating long shots on game, just clarifying.

I wasn't referring to ballistics. I was referring to hunter capabilities. Altitude diminishes physical abilities. Then there are myriad environmental factors that come into play.

Shot difficulty increases exponentially at altitude. A 200 yard shot is 4x more difficult than a hundred yard shot.

Tall sage that grows at 9000' and above can screw up an otherwise filled tag.

I had to forego a shot at a 380 class bull elk. I had followed my guide into thick stuff. A huge herd bull ran into a clearing & bugled. I had to stay motionless. He was no more than 60 yards away. Tree branches were between he & me. My guide asked me if I saw him. I did. He asked why I didn't drop my hammer on him. I told him that but for the zillion branches between a bull of a lifetime and me, he'd of had my tag on his massive antlers. I had to settle for a 374 bull. He's on my wall.

I've yet to see any hunter make an off hand shot on big game farther than a buck fifty, and that was me. Unfortunately, there aren't bench rests where big critter live.
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  #55  
Old 11-02-2018, 2:55 PM
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Unfortunately, there aren't bench rests where big critter live.
There are def places where a hunter can set up, hunker down, and scope a lot of area, and some of it will be 1000+ yds away. Big elk are taken from those places I hear but I don't know of any places like that in CA.
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  #56  
Old 11-04-2018, 6:33 AM
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There are def places where a hunter can set up, hunker down, and scope a lot of area, and some of it will be 1000+ yds away. Big elk are taken from those places I hear but I don't know of any places like that in CA.
Deedle,

Big game sniping is going to cause draconian hunting laws that will affect all hunters as well as snipers.

Buy yourself a hunting rifle and learn hunting skills. Relegate your sniping rifle to range use.
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  #57  
Old 11-04-2018, 7:06 PM
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Deedle,



Big game sniping is going to cause draconian hunting laws that will affect all hunters as well as snipers.



Buy yourself a hunting rifle and learn hunting skills. Relegate your sniping rifle to range use.


What laws would that be?


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  #58  
Old 11-04-2018, 8:34 PM
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Originally Posted by EMP3 View Post
Deedle,

Big game sniping is going to cause draconian hunting laws that will affect all hunters as well as snipers.

Buy yourself a hunting rifle and learn hunting skills. Relegate your sniping rifle to range use.
People have been at it or 30+ years, still waiting.
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  #59  
Old 11-04-2018, 10:42 PM
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For what it is worth it also works well on ground squirrels.


You must really hate ground squirrels.

On another note, the only “game” that should be taken at 1000 yds is isis. If you can’t get closer to an elk than 1000yds, get a better guide. No way should a shot ever be taken on game that far.


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  #60  
Old 11-04-2018, 10:53 PM
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Sniping is definitely the right word, not hunting.
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  #61  
Old 11-05-2018, 12:28 AM
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I shot a trophy hog in CA with my 30-378 with a guide at about 125 yards (perfect shot placement). Had to follow that pig 200 yards into thick brush and hit him again with the 30-378 from 10 ft. Both holes were only one Inch apart. It was extremely dangerous in the thick brush with that angry pig full of life, packing 3 1/2” tusks. My point again, I wish I had the 338. I want to stop the big and dangerous game ASAP. Not the standard powerful enough to kill it minimum. Thanks
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  #62  
Old 11-05-2018, 1:07 AM
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As a side note.
Years ago I was hunting BLM land for pig up in Coalinga. I was by myself and spotted some pigs as a couple other hunters came by and asked if I had seen anything. We all hiked down to the pigs. I shot a 400-450 lbs pig from 50 yards with my 30-06. The pig went into thick, thick brush and was snapping it teeth/jaw angry as hell. Myself and the two other men circled the thicket for about an half hour before we gave up on the snapping monster. Non of us were brave/stupid enough to go in with that sized pig. (No caliber would of made me comfortable going in the brush for that pig). Wish I used a 338 that time. It was a long quiet walk back.
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  #63  
Old 11-05-2018, 4:30 AM
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Sniping is definitely the right word, not hunting.
Thank you. you are correct. Stalking skills do pay dividends.
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  #64  
Old 11-05-2018, 5:52 AM
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What laws would that be?


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I can think of many; limits on cartridges and scope magnification being two most obvious.
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  #65  
Old 11-05-2018, 5:53 AM
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People have been at it or 30+ years, still waiting.
That's classic logical fallacy.
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  #66  
Old 11-05-2018, 5:55 AM
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What laws would that be?


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You might want to research NRA and SCI's position of game sniping. Both are adamantly in fierce opposition to it. Both refer to it as unethical and immoral.
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Old 11-05-2018, 5:57 AM
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I can think of many; limits on cartridges and scope magnification being two most obvious.


Where has any of this been proposed? Long range hunting is not new. I get you don’t like it but it is suck a small portion of the hunting community literally no one is calling for regulation that I am aware of.


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Old 11-05-2018, 6:08 AM
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As a side note.
Years ago I was hunting BLM land for pig up in Coalinga. I was by myself and spotted some pigs as a couple other hunters came by and asked if I had seen anything. We all hiked down to the pigs. I shot a 400-450 lbs pig from 50 yards with my 30-06. The pig went into thick, thick brush and was snapping it teeth/jaw angry as hell. Myself and the two other men circled the thicket for about an half hour before we gave up on the snapping monster. Non of us were brave/stupid enough to go in with that sized pig. (No caliber would of made me comfortable going in the brush for that pig). Wish I used a 338 that time. It was a long quiet walk back.
Courage is saddling up and riding into the face of danger. You lack courage.

Stupid was walking away from a wounded animal than could've harmed another.

Put your bullets where they oughta go, and animals will die. Nothing living remains in that condition without topside oxygenated blood flow. Stop it, and every animal walking Earth will die. That is biological fact.

A .338 Win Mag will not compensate for bad shooting, which was the case here. You exacerbated bad shooting by turning coward. A moral, ethical hunter would have gone in to kill that pig before he killed a person who had no knowledge that you've abandoned a wounded animal. Not good.

Learn how to shoot before hunting. You owe it to animals you hunt.

BTW, a hunter armed with a Model 94 who knew how to shoot it would have been cleaning that pig a few minutes after firing his only shot.

Hunters like you are ethical hunters adversaries' dream. You make it easy for those who want to abolish hunting to achieve their goal.

Hunting might not be your sport.
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  #69  
Old 11-05-2018, 6:12 AM
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Where has any of this been proposed? Long range hunting is not new. I get you don’t like it but it is suck a small portion of the hunting community literally no one is calling for regulation that I am aware of.


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I'll write this again: research NRA & SCI's position on long range hunting. Call both outfits. They'll tell you why LRH is immoral and unethical.

Game sniping = lack of hunting skills.
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Old 11-05-2018, 6:31 AM
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I'll write this again: research NRA & SCI's position on long range hunting. Call both outfits. They'll tell you why LRH is immoral and unethical.



Game sniping = lack of hunting skills.


Neither is calling for regulation. Both are simply money grabbing organizations. Why anyone listens to the NRA on hunting issues is fool and SCI strictly caters to the rich. Both leave a lot to be desired when it comes to an organizations supporting hunting.

Hunters complaining about long range hunters is akin to gun owners complaining about AR owners. Just doesn’t make sense to me.


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Old 11-05-2018, 6:32 AM
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Courage is saddling up and riding into the face of danger. You lack courage.

Stupid was walking away from a wounded animal than could've harmed another.

Put your bullets where they oughta go, and animals will die. Nothing living remains in that condition without topside oxygenated blood flow. Stop it, and every animal walking Earth will die. That is biological fact.

A .338 Win Mag will not compensate for bad shooting, which was the case here. You exacerbated bad shooting by turning coward. A moral, ethical hunter would have gone in to kill that pig before he killed a person who had no knowledge that you've abandoned a wounded animal. Not good.

Learn how to shoot before hunting. You owe it to animals you hunt.

BTW, a hunter armed with a Model 94 who knew how to shoot it would have been cleaning that pig a few minutes after firing his only shot.

Hunters like you are ethical hunters adversaries' dream. You make it easy for those who want to abolish hunting to achieve their goal.

Hunting might not be your sport.


At least we agree on this. Piss poor hunting.


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  #72  
Old 11-05-2018, 7:07 AM
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Neither is calling for regulation. Both are simply money grabbing organizations. Why anyone listens to the NRA on hunting issues is fool and SCI strictly caters to the rich. Both leave a lot to be desired when it comes to an organizations supporting hunting.

Hunters complaining about long range hunters is akin to gun owners complaining about AR owners. Just doesn’t make sense to me.


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I think what bothers a lot of people about the long range hunters is they have either experienced or heard stories of people making perfect shot or flubbed shot at 50 yard or 150 yards and have to shoot it multiple times, track it a long ways, lose the animal, or all three. If you don't drop the animal on the spot with one shot, the farther away it is less likely to get second shot and higher the probability of lost animal.
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Old 11-05-2018, 7:58 AM
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I think what bothers a lot of people about the long range hunters is they have either experienced or heard stories of people making perfect shot or flubbed shot at 50 yard or 150 yards and have to shoot it multiple times, track it a long ways, lose the animal, or all three. If you don't drop the animal on the spot with one shot, the farther away it is less likely to get second shot and higher the probability of lost animal.


I understand. I am not a long range hunter. I limit myself to around 400 yards depending on conditions. I would like to up that to 600 yards in the future just because some of the places I hunt that is about as close as you can get. Think mule deer hunting wide open bowls and cliffs at the top of a 10k mountain.

That said I liken that argument to people not liking AR’s because they are used to shoot up schools and kill little kids. I say hunters that make bad shots and bad decisions should be held accountable by their peers and ridiculed if necessary. But there are plenty of much better shots out there than me who regularly and humanely kill animals at long ranges. Can’t find a reason to be upset and against they way they chose to hunt.

Just my thoughts and screw those AR owners out there who want children to die. Myself included.


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Old 11-05-2018, 8:31 AM
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Originally Posted by EMP3 View Post
That's classic logical fallacy.
Really? Which one?

FWIW *I* have never done long range hunting but in some places (I believe a place called 'Hell's Canyon' might be famous?) extreme long range hunting has been done with good success for a long time.
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Old 11-05-2018, 8:34 AM
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I think what bothers a lot of people about the long range hunters is they have either experienced or heard stories of people making perfect shot or flubbed shot at 50 yard or 150 yards and have to shoot it multiple times, track it a long ways, lose the animal, or all three. If you don't drop the animal on the spot with one shot, the farther away it is less likely to get second shot and higher the probability of lost animal.
That was the second reason dad taught us to go for the head. The first was "don't waste meat".
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Old 11-05-2018, 8:38 AM
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That was the second reason dad taught us to go for the head. The first was "don't waste meat".


We just neck shoot them from 150 and in. A little bigger target than the head but minimal meat damage. So much nicer to bone out on a neck shot.


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Old 11-05-2018, 8:44 AM
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We just neck shoot them from 150 and in. A little bigger target than the head but minimal meet damage. So much nicer to bone out on a neck shot.


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Dad always said the neck was OK because 'you'll break their neck or cut their throat' but he preferred the head. He grew up in a time and place where venison was one of his families primary sources of protein.
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Old 11-05-2018, 9:05 AM
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I understand. I am not a long range hunter. I limit myself to around 400 yards depending on conditions. I would like to up that to 600 yards in the future just because some of the places I hunt that is about as close as you can get. Think mule deer hunting wide open bowls and cliffs at the top of a 10k mountain.

That said I liken that argument to people not liking AR’s because they are used to shoot up schools and kill little kids. I say hunters that make bad shots and bad decisions should be held accountable by their peers and ridiculed if necessary. But there are plenty of much better shots out there than me who regularly and humanely kill animals at long ranges. Can’t find a reason to be upset and against they way they chose to hunt.

Just my thoughts and screw those AR owners out there who want children to die. Myself included.


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I just can't get the AR connection you're getting. To me closest connection I can think of would be more like people saying 22lr is ok for 100 to 200 yard deer hunting if you're a good shot.
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Old 11-05-2018, 11:04 AM
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I just can't get the AR connection you're getting. To me closest connection I can think of would be more like people saying 22lr is ok for 100 to 200 yard deer hunting if you're a good shot.


The connection is the thought that long range hunting is bad because people make poor decisions and take shots they shouldn’t which is similar to AR’s are bad because people make bad decisions and kill children with them. In both cases I blame the person not the activity or ownership.


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Old 11-05-2018, 11:34 AM
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.300 Win Mag is completely sufficient for the job and costs significantly less.
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