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  #161  
Old 04-25-2014, 8:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artema View Post
The question I have for you is where do they use the poly guns? What application? Is it overseas combat?

The MPs, Embassy duty, garrison: anywhere the stress of actual combat won't break them. For real, they use steel.
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  #162  
Old 04-25-2014, 8:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Artema View Post
The question I have for you is where do they use the poly guns? What application? Is it overseas combat?

Beats me. But they are for sure buying them as a suppressor host.


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  #163  
Old 04-25-2014, 8:17 PM
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I'd say they should issue 92G's instead. There is no need to have a slide mounted lever serve as the safety and the decocker - only one role is necessary. Not to mention the 92G shares enough parts with the M9 so that replacements won't be as big an issue.
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  #164  
Old 04-25-2014, 8:42 PM
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  #165  
Old 04-25-2014, 9:59 PM
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Originally Posted by RobertMW View Post
Personally, I would like to see them go the route of a polymer pistol of some type. I think that they should lower their expected standards of longevity and get a gun that will run like a beast for 40-60,000 rounds, and then be completely comfortable with throwing it away, rather than keep them put-putting along for 120,000. I bet with the right contract, they could get something like a glock for about 1/3 the cost of m9A1's.
Yeah, they really do milk every bit of life outta those pistols. The one they issued me for qualifying in the Air Force rattled when I shook it. How I shot expert with it remains a mystery...

Quote:
Currently only about 1/4 of typical soldiers are issued a sidearm when they go out in the field, usually support weapon carriers and officers, correct? Special forces are different matter, I would expect each and every one of them to go into the field with at least 1 backup gun.
Special forces have the option for Glocks and Sigs, depending on what branch, and who the armorer is. My wife got to shoot a G19 when she was deployed to the Deid with some Combat Controllers. Now she owns one...

...that I paid for.
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  #166  
Old 04-26-2014, 8:56 AM
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Originally Posted by advocatusdiaboli View Post
The MPs, Embassy duty, garrison: anywhere the stress of actual combat won't break them. For real, they use steel.
Really...? Guess all the MK23s/MK24s/P8s/Glocks in use by NSW, CCTs, CAG, Bundeswehr, etc is just for show huh?

Lots of idiotic polymer hate going on now.
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  #167  
Old 04-26-2014, 9:39 AM
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Police seem fine with polymer—police duty ain't combat and the fog of war. Besides donuts and coffee don't corrode polymer.

Seriously I don't hate polymer, I just don't think it are as durable as steel for a firearm frame. Some bad-azz groups might choose it. But. The French built the Maginot line too—their best and brightest. The US Army chose ADC camp over Multicam (big mistake). Organizations don't aways choose wisely. Ever seen what UV exposure does to plastic? Maybe i na SWAT team that doesn't matter, but in the field for an extended campaign? I'd not trust my life to it's maintaining integrity.
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  #168  
Old 04-26-2014, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by advocatusdiaboli View Post
Ever seen what UV exposure does to plastic?
My 20+ yr old car dashboard laughs at UV. And not all polymers are made equal. It isn't fair to lump all polymers together as "plastic", just like it isn't fair to lump AL, mild steel, high carbon steel, stainless, etc together as "metal".

I'm not sure how Glock embeds their steel rail into the polymer. But if the sheer strength, etc, are the same if not superior to the one piece AL rail, then as our Sec State says, "what difference does it make?"
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  #169  
Old 04-26-2014, 12:46 PM
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Glock 20 10mm. Why not.
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  #170  
Old 04-26-2014, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Massan View Post
Really...? Guess all the MK23s/MK24s/P8s/Glocks in use by NSW, CCTs, CAG, Bundeswehr, etc is just for show huh?

Lots of idiotic polymer hate going on now.
http://www.gunsite.co.za/forums/show...s-G36-s-in-AFG

Quote:
  • Synthetic parts have been identified which lose stiffness at temperatures as low as 23 degrees C (about 80 degrees).
  • When these plastic parts are heated in the sun, the point of impact shifts.

As with any new technology, there will be teething problems. Especially considering how the G36 is really the first all polymer rifle. I don't know what the polymer is, but I venture to guess the thermal stability isn't as good as AL or steel. I'm not a materials engineer, but I won't be surprised if there exists a polymer with as good thermal stability as other traditional materials. We just need to find it and use it.

With a large sample size (users, different conditions, etc), problems will be exposed and fixed. AL firearms benefit from the aerospace industry doing a lot of research for them. Polymer/composite is still relatively new. Look at the Boeing 787, likely the worst plane the company has made in its history. But the 797 is guaranteed to be significantly better, because of lessons learned.

This discussion is like the M16A1. All the WW2 and Korea vets are screaming and kicking that they don't trust "Matel" to see them thru war; and they want their M1/M14 back. And 50 years on, the toy rifle works pretty good.
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  #171  
Old 04-26-2014, 1:28 PM
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Sig pro. Cheap light accurate. Us army tank division uses sig pro
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  #172  
Old 04-26-2014, 1:45 PM
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If the Marines are satified w/ their 1911's, then when Gaston upguns the Glock 36 into a 1911 size might be the time to replace the M9.

I wonder if .45Super is a legal cartridge?

Port
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  #173  
Old 04-26-2014, 1:47 PM
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Pistols are usually carried by personnel who generally are not going to shoot anyone. Excluding tunnel rats but I have not seen a need for a tunnel rat since Nam. Must suck to tunnel in the desert sand. I would not use anything smaller than a 45. A Glock 30 would be my choice as a T-rat.
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  #174  
Old 04-26-2014, 1:53 PM
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Sig 2022 or if they really want firepower in a pistol what about a NFA EXTAR...no recoil, and it has a lot of range and killing power.
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  #175  
Old 04-26-2014, 2:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gsparesa View Post
Pistols are usually carried by personnel who generally are not going to shoot anyone. Excluding tunnel rats but I have not seen a need for a tunnel rat since Nam. Must suck to tunnel in the desert sand. I would not use anything smaller than a 45. A Glock 30 would be my choice as a T-rat.
That's a good choice since a lot of crap is going to get on/in your pistol while crawling through a dirt tunnel.
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  #176  
Old 04-26-2014, 2:15 PM
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"Pistols do not win wars, but they save the lives of the men who do." -Col. Jeff Cooper, January 1968
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I'd go to the grocery store with polymer, and I'd go to war with steel.
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  #177  
Old 04-26-2014, 2:59 PM
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Originally Posted by gsparesa View Post
Pistols are usually carried by personnel who generally are not going to shoot anyone. Excluding tunnel rats but I have not seen a need for a tunnel rat since Nam. Must suck to tunnel in the desert sand. I would not use anything smaller than a 45. A Glock 30 would be my choice as a T-rat.
Good call.

That's the concern over the M9 - that open slide.

Maybe if I come up with an aftermarket shroud for it.

Do you think it would sell?

Port
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  #178  
Old 04-26-2014, 3:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Port Authority View Post
Good call.

That's the concern over the M9 - that open slide.

Maybe if I come up with an aftermarket shroud for it.

Do you think it would sell?

Port
If it's like "that shoulder thing that goes up", it will be illegal in California, but it would sell well (elsewhere of course).
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  #179  
Old 04-26-2014, 3:11 PM
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Originally Posted by advocatusdiaboli View Post
Police seem fine with polymer—police duty ain't combat and the fog of war. Besides donuts and coffee don't corrode polymer.

Seriously I don't hate polymer, I just don't think it are as durable as steel for a firearm frame. Some bad-azz groups might choose it. But. The French built the Maginot line too—their best and brightest. The US Army chose ADC camp over Multicam (big mistake). Organizations don't aways choose wisely. Ever seen what UV exposure does to plastic? Maybe i na SWAT team that doesn't matter, but in the field for an extended campaign? I'd not trust my life to it's maintaining integrity.
Many people laugh at the Maginot Line. But Maginot Line did exactly what it was supposed to do. Germans never breached it. They had to go around it. French lost not because Maginot Line fell. French lost because Maginot Line's flank was lost.
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  #180  
Old 04-26-2014, 3:17 PM
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Glock 17 or Glock 19
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  #181  
Old 04-26-2014, 3:19 PM
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Many people laugh at the Maginot Line. But Maginot Line did exactly what it was supposed to do. Germans never breached it. They had to go around it. French lost not because Maginot Line fell. French lost because Maginot Line's flank was lost.
i know that. That's the point. It looked good on paper and then the Germans simply flanked it. The point is sometimes really bright folks think up things (like polymer frames) that seem to work in the theory/lab, as did the Maginot Line, but might not really stand up in all conditions in the field.

During the Normandy Invasion in WW2, American paratroopers had a multi-step release system for their parachutes and gear while the British took time to test and make a one-step release. The Germans flooded the field and hedgerows and many American paratroopers drowned before they could get their gear off. I view polymer pistols like that—seem okay, but my gut tells me they won't hold up. Maybe I am wrong, not risking my life on it if I were once again a soldier.
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Not wasting any more time and energy tilting, Don Quixote-like, on a regulatory problem that, constitutionally, should not even exist in a free state.
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  #182  
Old 04-26-2014, 4:33 PM
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Why change if it works? I have had a 92FS Centurion for 20+ years and has never failed me.
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  #183  
Old 04-26-2014, 4:37 PM
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Why change if it works? I have had a 92FS Centurion for 20+ years and has never failed me.
I don't see a dire need to change. I just know if I were to carry a handgun again, the M9 isn't my choice. I'd prefer the M11 as it is already in the inventory and has superior features all around. It would be a very easy transition, just buy more M11 as the M9 wear out (and many are close or past the point already).
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I'd go to the grocery store with polymer, and I'd go to war with steel.
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  #184  
Old 04-26-2014, 4:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Artema View Post
I don't see a dire need to change. I just know if I were to carry a handgun again, the M9 isn't my choice. I'd prefer the M11 as it is already in the inventory and has superior features all around. It would be a very easy transition, just buy more M11 as the M9 wear out (and many are close or past the point already).
I'd support that. I think a lot of the complaining is from people who favor a different caliber (read 1911 .45 ACP fans and UN paranoiacs mostly) and I think 9mm is just fine.
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  #185  
Old 04-26-2014, 4:46 PM
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Originally Posted by advocatusdiaboli View Post
I'd support that. I think a lot of the complaining is from people who favor a different caliber (read 1911 .45 ACP fans and UN paranoiacs mostly) and I think 9mm is just fine.
I wouldn't have a problem with a 1911, I'd just want it in 10mm Auto, not 45 ACP!
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I'd go to the grocery store with polymer, and I'd go to war with steel.
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  #186  
Old 04-26-2014, 4:47 PM
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The Beretta M9 is a fine gun. If it had to be changed, I would go with the CZ 75.
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  #187  
Old 04-26-2014, 5:38 PM
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If it's based on budget I would say a Jennings 9mm...jk.

I would say one of the following:
FN 5.7
Sig P226
CZ 75

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  #188  
Old 04-26-2014, 6:10 PM
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Originally Posted by advocatusdiaboli View Post
If it's like "that shoulder thing that goes up", it will be illegal in California, but it would sell well (elsewhere of course).
Don't know what.

I see a hard plastic 'top of the slide' part that would snap hard into place and cover the barrel except for the ejection 'port' which this part would provide.

I like to think everything can be improved.

Port
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  #189  
Old 04-26-2014, 6:55 PM
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Do you think we should replace the standard issue M9 for our troops? What would be your ideal handgun?
I didn't have time to check the thread so I don't know if anyone brought it up or not, but here it goes. Why can't a infantry front liner provide his own pistol and ammo in the military? I saw a couple of responses earlier about national debt and personnel preference. If a soldier was able to provide his own (along with ammo, mags and molle pouches) from a PX or that he already owns, wouldn't that solve the issue? The military can offer the M9 that already is in service for those that are issued, but those who prefer another or are not issued such as rifleman can opt to provide their own. No extra tax dollars are spent, no need to restock whole lines of weaponry and a troop gets what he prefers. If reliability issues are a concern or some standardization is required there can also be an approved list like a lot of police departments have, it's a win-win.
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  #190  
Old 04-26-2014, 6:57 PM
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I didn't have time to check the thread so I don't know if anyone brought it up or not, but here it goes. Why can't a infantry front liner provide his own pistol and ammo in the military? I saw a couple of responses earlier about national debt and personnel preference. If a soldier was able to provide his own (along with ammo, mags and molle pouches) from a PX or that he already owns, wouldn't that solve the issue? The military can offer the M9 that already is in service for those that are issued, but those who prefer another or are not issued such as rifleman can opt to provide their own. No extra tax dollars are spent, no need to restock whole lines of weaponry and a troop gets what he prefers. If reliability issues are a concern or some standardization is required there can also be an approved list like a lot of police departments have, it's a win-win.
One word: logistics. Imagine having to stock 5 or more pistol calibers and figuring out how many of what to ship to each unit in the fog of war! A recipe for defeat if I ever heard of one. Also, what should the armorer stock to maintain each and every model? IT would be a supply nightmare. Or should each person stock their own replacement parts—weapons get damaged a lot in war and replacements need to be readily available or missions will fail. There is much more if you think it through, but military use cases are not equivalent to local LEO use cases in the slightest.

Good idea for the homeland militia (and has been since 1773)
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Last edited by advocatusdiaboli; 04-26-2014 at 7:08 PM..
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  #191  
Old 04-26-2014, 7:12 PM
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Don't know what.

I see a hard plastic 'top of the slide' part that would snap hard into place and cover the barrel except for the ejection 'port' which this part would provide.

I like to think everything can be improved.

Port
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  #192  
Old 04-26-2014, 7:18 PM
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Originally Posted by advocatusdiaboli View Post
One word: logistics. Imagine having to stock 5 or more pistol calibers and figuring out how many of what to ship to each unit in the fog of war! A recipe for defeat if I ever heard of one. Also, what should the armorer stock to maintain each and every model? IT would be a supply nightmare. Or should each person stock their own replacement parts—weapons get damaged a lot in war and replacements need to be readily available or missions will fail. There is much more if you think it through, but military use cases are not equivalent to local LEO use cases in the slightest.

Good idea for the homeland militia (and has been since 1773)
That's why I mention an approve list (for ammo logistics) and the individual being responsible for supplying for their needs as far as ammo, mags and pouches. As far as broken parts, maybe having a backup in your pack in the hummer or at base.
As it stands now from what I know of the military (never enlisted so my knowledge is limited) that certain positions are not issued anything at all and giving them the option to provide their own seems to me a valid option.
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  #193  
Old 04-26-2014, 7:33 PM
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KISS. Glock 17 if it HAS to be 9mm, Glock 21 if not.
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  #194  
Old 04-26-2014, 7:41 PM
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KISS. Glock 17 if it HAS to be 9mm, Glock 21 if not.
I still maintain that Glocks are great for civilians and maybe even state-side military, but not for rigors of war. I know I wouldn't want to go to war with a gun I hadn't been using for normal duty either.
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  #195  
Old 04-26-2014, 7:52 PM
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  #196  
Old 04-26-2014, 8:29 PM
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Why not the PX4 Storm in 45 acp? Polymer guys get what they want, 45 acp guys get what they want.

I'll bet people who work at busy shooting ranges would have some valuable insight on this topic.

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  #197  
Old 04-27-2014, 9:02 AM
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Fnx 45 tactical based on real field experience and the limitation of fmj ball
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  #198  
Old 04-27-2014, 9:23 AM
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The M9 works just fine for us. But if it was my choice I would phase them all out of the armory for the M11.
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Old 04-27-2014, 9:25 AM
J-cat J-cat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artema View Post
I still maintain that Glocks are great for civilians and maybe even state-side military, but not for rigors of war.
Why not?

What makes the Glock not suitable for war?

Oh, wait. Glock has been to war already.
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Old 04-27-2014, 9:31 AM
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Artema Artema is offline
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Quote:
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Why not?

What makes the Glock not suitable for war?

Oh, wait. Glock has been to war already.
Rarely do steel frames wear out, so occasionally other parts have to be replaced. Cost of maintaining steel guns is low when you consider the abuse they take, not over years, but over decades. If you were to take it out for, say, 5 deployments and you were the only one to use it, yeah, it'd be fine. If you have it in nearly constant use, changing hands through hundreds of service members for thirty years, then no.
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I'd go to the grocery store with polymer, and I'd go to war with steel.
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