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  #41  
Old 04-24-2014, 10:21 PM
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Beretta Neos.

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  #42  
Old 04-24-2014, 10:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anti View Post
Abolsutely none. The only thing I could see people complaining about is the weight of the gun compared to a lot of popular polymer pistols today. If anything, the weight helps control the gun and if a few pounds bothers you while it's in a holster - then quit being a weenie.
Said, the man that never humped a full combat load in the suck before.
Ounces matter, but as far as a combat sidearm goes. When the time is right by all means replace the Beretta. But the time is not right, yet.
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  #43  
Old 04-24-2014, 10:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stormvet View Post
Said, the man that never humped a full combat load in the suck before.
Ounces matter, but as far as a combat sidearm goes. When the time is right by all means replace the Beretta. But the time is not right, yet.
I have but only during training because I got discharged early back in 2008. I lied on my medical forms to get in. It was mostly old TA50 like the LBE vest and old rucksacks with those frames that jab you..
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  #44  
Old 04-24-2014, 10:43 PM
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if i were to pick, it'd be some double stack pistol in .45 similar to a FNX45, double stack 1911, M&P45, G21, etc. since most people do not carry a pistol, i don't see the somewhat larger size and weight as being a huge issue. nor the slightly lower capacity. for those who absolutely do need to carry a pistol, i'd want as much power as i could get in that package (while still being easy to use) seeing as how i'll be facing off against people with rifles, autos, and other long guns with fmj pistol rounds.

beretta shoots fine for me, but i absolutely despise the slide mounted safety/decocker. chews my hands up when going fast or under stress and i've seen the safety engaged accidentally racking the slide more than a few times.

i can see why external hammer could still be required given the hard military primers that are sometimes encountered. not sure why it has to be a DA/SA pistol with a decocker and manual safety though (if the above is the case). aren't most people supposed to shoot better with a pistol that has a consistent trigger pull anyways?

Last edited by penguinofsleep; 04-25-2014 at 11:36 AM..
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  #45  
Old 04-24-2014, 10:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orangeusa View Post
6 rounds of 45Colt? or 7 rounds of ACP?
vs 15 of 9mm?

.
Did I say 1911?

If the round count is the only criteria, you'd be better off with .22
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  #46  
Old 04-24-2014, 10:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1911ShooterPhil View Post
Those who dislike the Beretta M9, I have some bad news for you...

http://www.berettausa.com/usarmyawar...istolcontract/

But, don't lose all hope just yet...

http://www.armytimes.com/article/201...tart-next-year

That being said, my beloved USMC brought back the tried & true 1911:

http://blogs.militarytimes.com/gears...-cqbp-pistols/

http://www.gunsandammo.com/reviews/s...pistol-review/

http://www.gunblast.com/Colt-M45CQB.htm

God bless the USMC for "sticking to their guns" and re-enlisting the venerable 1911 pistol. It has served Marines from the island fights in the Pacific during WWII, to the jungles of Vietnam, to the mountains of Afghanistan. Maybe the other US military services will scratch their heads, get their hands on a good ol' .45ACP 1911, and realize why the USMC never lost its faith in the 1911. Here's hoping! --1911ShooterPhil

Sorry, those Colt M45CQBs are pretty limited in use by the USMC. Basically, they're replacing worn out 45's already service.

In fact, the Marines have purchased somewhere around 17,000 M9A1's during the last few years:

U.S. Marines Add to M9A1 Inventory
Beretta to complete pistol system deliveries in 2006

ACCOKEEK, MD—July 29, 2006—Beretta USA today announced that it has received another order from the United States Marine Corps for the M9A1 pistol system. The pistol system consists of the Beretta M9A1 pistol, a tactical holster from Blackhawk products Group, and Beretta’s specially designed sand-resistant PVD magazines.

“This brings the total number of M9A1’s ordered by the Marines to over 7,500 in the last 12 months,” stated E. Scott Blackwell, Vice President and Division Manager – Manufacturing & Product Development for Beretta USA.

The M9A1 9mm pistol evolved from the base design of the Beretta produced M9 pistol, currently being fielded by all service branches of the U.S. Armed Forces. The M9A1 was developed with input from various U.S. Military and Law Enforcement personnel keeping the proven attributes and reliability of the battle-tested M9, with added enhancements. At their suggestion a Picatinny rail was added for the attachment of tactical lights and/or laser aiming devices, and radical cross-checkering was applied to the front and back straps to allow for enhanced grip-ability in adverse conditions.

Additionally, the M9A1 embodies an aggressive bevel to the magazine well of the frame, to enable fast tactical reloads in combat situations of the new sand-resistant PVD-coated magazines. Beretta designed these new magazines after testing in the harsh conditions of Afghanistan and Iraq. Included as part of the M9A1 pistol system is a Blackhawk Products Group holster. The holster to be supplied is based off of Blackhawk's popular CQC™ SERPA system, and will be supplied in a Coyote Tan color.

“Between the U.S. Marines and other US Law Enforcement customers, we have sold well over 10,000 of the M9A1’s in 2006. This is a credit to the legacy of the M9 pistol, which for over 20 years has been at the side of our service men and women around the globe, as well as the input from numerous users looking to make the most battle proven and worthy 9mm pistol, even better,” stated Blackwell.

The M9A1, like the standard M9 pistol, is manufactured at Beretta USA’s Accokeek, Maryland facility. Beretta USA has been continuously manufacturing the M9 pistols since 1988. The average reliability of M9 pistols currently being built under US Military contracts and tested at Beretta U.S.A. is 17,500 rounds without a stoppage. During one test, twelve M9 pistols fired 168,000 rounds without a single malfunction. Since being awarded the original contract in 1985, Beretta has supplied over 500,000 pistols to the U.S. Military.

Beretta is the oldest industrial dynasty in the world, tracing its roots through 16 generations of continuous family ownership back to 1526. Firearms bearing the Beretta name have been sold for over 475 years. Founded in 1977, Beretta U.S.A. Corp. manufactures, distributes and markets a complete line of firearms, accessories and apparel. Beretta Total Solutions for Law Enforcement offers a full line of firearms and accessories, including Benelli Tactical, Sako, and Tikka products to thousands of law enforcement and military agencies worldwide.
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  #47  
Old 04-24-2014, 11:05 PM
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CZ P-01.

Must be able to complete the following without failure:

4000 dry firings
3000 De-cockings
Operator level disassembly 1350 times with out ware or damage to components.
Complete disassembly 150 times, this is all the way down, pins, springs etc.
100% interchangability, any number of pistols randomly selected, disassembled, parts mixed and reassembled with no failures of any kind including loss of accuracy.


Safety requirements:

Drop test
1.5 meter (4.9”) drop test, this is done 54 times with the pistol loaded (blank) and the hammer cocked. Dropping the pistol on the butt, the muzzle, back of the slide, sides of the gun, top of the slide, in essence, any angle that you could drop the gun from. This is done on concrete and 0 failures are allowed! A failure is the gun firing.

3meter drop (9.8”) 5 times with the pistol loaded (blank) and the hammer cocked, This is done on concrete and 0 failures are allowed! A failure is the gun firing.

After these tests are complete the gun must fire without service.

The factory contracted an independent lab to do additional testing on guns that previously passed the drop tests. These pistol were dropped an additional 352 times without failure.

The pistol must also complete an environmental conditions test:
This means cold, heat, dust/sand and mud.
The pistol must fire after being frozen for 24 hours at –35C (-36F).
The pistol must fire after being heated for 24 hours at 70C (126F)
The pistol must fire after being submerged in mud, sand and combinations including being stripped of oil then completing the sand and mud tests again.

Service life:
The service life requirement from the Czech police was 15,000 rounds of +P ammo!
The pistol will exceed 30,000 rounds with ball 9mm.

Reliability:
The reliability requirements for the P-01 pistol are 99.8%, that’s a .2% failure rate.
This equals 20 stoppages in 10,000 rounds or 500 “Mean Rounds Between Failure” (MRBF)
During testing, the average number of stoppages was only 7 per 15,000 rounds fired, this is a .05% failure rate, a MRBF rate of 2142 rounds! Over 4 time the minimum acceptable requirement.
The U.S. Army MRBF requirement is 495 rounds for 9mm pistols with 115 grain Ball ammunition.

Heritage:
The P-01 is based on the CZ 75, the most used pistol in the world. Over 60 countries use it as the standard side arm of their Armies, National police forces, National security agencies or other Law enforcement organizations. No other pistol can make this claim.
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  #48  
Old 04-24-2014, 11:05 PM
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Phoenix Arms makes a pretty dandy handgun in .22 caliber.

Perfect. They already got .22(3) rifles.

Now go to Poland and plink up a storm!
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  #49  
Old 04-24-2014, 11:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sigstroker View Post
Geez, I'd rather count on the Beretta than the Govt Model. It takes a good $500 worth of gunsmithing to make a Govt Model as reliable as an out-of-the-box Beretta.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob7.62 View Post
1911 it's a war horse but regardless of gun, caliber should be .45 I mean if you limited to ball ammo like the military is might as well have a big hole.
I'm not claiming that a 1911 doesn't need tuning. Even the best race engine needs to be tuned by a knowledgeable mechanic. The USMC has had armorers at Quantico doing that for decades now. Many of the 1911s I came across in service were in the hands of specialized Marine units (Force Recon, FAST, HET, etc), who had the budget and manpower to maintain those pistols properly. Why those folks liked the 1911 was because they had lots of pistols in stock in government armories, parts were readily available, and most importantly, the proven effectiveness of the 45ACP cartridge. The 1911 pistol has served 3 generations of fighting men in my family throughout several wars, and all who had one, swore by them. I own five 1911s myself and often carry one for work purposes, self defense, and for fun. I love 1911s.

The USMC chose a pretty sexy pistol for their special folks:



That being said though, there are other nice options available, like the SIG P220 Scorpion:



I also own and often carry a SIG P220 for work purposes. It's a great, reliable handgun. If I couldn't have a 1911, then I happily take the SIG P220. Both are in 45ACP and use single stack magazines. Most people, even folks with small hands like me, can wrap their mitts around a single stack gun. And, since both are chambered in 45ACP, I am confident in their man-stopping abilities.

1911s aren't for everyone. SIG makes good pistols too. My brother, a Riverside deputy, has a Glock 21SF, which isn't bad either. Guns are tools. 45ACP pistols are good tools for combat purposes with a proven track record. If I had options available to me, I'd still stick to a 45ACP pistol. That's just my $0.02, anyway. --1911ShooterPhil
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Last edited by 1911ShooterPhil; 04-24-2014 at 11:40 PM.. Reason: Quotes...
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  #50  
Old 04-24-2014, 11:29 PM
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I feel the most advanced is the FN 5.7. It's light, powerful and is high capacity.

I shoot my friends occasionally and it's impressive. Easy to shot!
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  #51  
Old 04-24-2014, 11:37 PM
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Don't shoot your friends.
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  #52  
Old 04-24-2014, 11:47 PM
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Maybe Springfield XD-9. No one else has said it yet...

Not that I have to worry about it anymore but I don't think the sig, the beretta, or the M&P are good options. Too many safties and complicated features. Good features for LEOs but the military doesn't necessarily need those options.
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  #53  
Old 04-24-2014, 11:52 PM
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The M9 isn't the problem, 9mm ball is the problem.
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  #54  
Old 04-24-2014, 11:55 PM
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I love my Beretta 92, most accurate 9mm I own. That being said, having to use FMJ, 9mm seems like such a pointless round- no calibre debate here as the HP's these days are great and I bet my life on them but FMJ 9mm? Never really made sense to me as an offensive choice.
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  #55  
Old 04-24-2014, 11:58 PM
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Stick with the m9. Or go with the p226. How many more people going to say glock?
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  #56  
Old 04-25-2014, 12:03 AM
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The Glock would be an excellent service pistol.
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  #57  
Old 04-25-2014, 5:34 AM
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Glock 17 but the sig m11 would be a winner too
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  #58  
Old 04-25-2014, 5:56 AM
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1911!

IS there any OTHER pistol?
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  #59  
Old 04-25-2014, 6:51 AM
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m9a1 or px4 storm.
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  #60  
Old 04-25-2014, 6:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speedoguy View Post
m9a1 or px4 storm.
They are replacing it with the M9A1. Special forces are getting 1911s though.

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  #61  
Old 04-25-2014, 6:59 AM
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Glock 21 gen 4.

Screw NATO.

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  #62  
Old 04-25-2014, 7:36 AM
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HK USP V1.


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  #63  
Old 04-25-2014, 7:46 AM
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the M9 does not age well in military service, they get all kinds of ****ed up after 2-3 years in service. frankly i think it should be replace with a glock or the M&P or p30 in 9mm, 9mm because of nato.
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  #64  
Old 04-25-2014, 7:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CEDaytonaRydr View Post
Maybe Springfield XD-9. No one else has said it yet...
That would actually be a very good choice. It has the extra external safety that I'm sure the armed forces would love to have. I would personally say the XD(m) series, just because it has the interchangeable back straps.

Personally, I would like to see them go the route of a polymer pistol of some type. I think that they should lower their expected standards of longevity and get a gun that will run like a beast for 40-60,000 rounds, and then be completely comfortable with throwing it away, rather than keep them put-putting along for 120,000. I bet with the right contract, they could get something like a glock for about 1/3 the cost of m9A1's. We all know that the reason Glock can sell an exceptional quality pistol for relatively cheap is that they are selling them in such volume. If they did a little bit of marriage between the gen 3 and gen 4 Glock, give us the trigger bar, frame with backstraps, and better stipling from gen 4, and the rock solid simple recoil system of the Gen 3, I think you would have the best gun for the military. I can detail strip my gen 3 in less than 5 minutes, the armourers would have such a simplified maintenance. Give them a G21sf in that configuration and you have everything, .45acp, double stack, anyone could fit the gun, cheap, reliable in all situations, simple maintenance.

Currently only about 1/4 of typical soldiers are issued a sidearm when they go out in the field, usually support weapon carriers and officers, correct? Special forces are different matter, I would expect each and every one of them to go into the field with at least 1 backup gun.
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  #65  
Old 04-25-2014, 7:53 AM
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SA XD9
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  #66  
Old 04-25-2014, 7:57 AM
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NOTHING! They work fine, why does the government continue to p*** away money they don't have.
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  #67  
Old 04-25-2014, 8:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orangeusa View Post
6 rounds of 45Colt? or 7 rounds of ACP?
vs 15 of 9mm?

.
45ACP got "stopping power"!

As soon as you show the enemies your 45s, they stop and drop dead on the spot!

9mm just bounce and infuriate the enemies...
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  #68  
Old 04-25-2014, 8:02 AM
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Stick with the M9. If we must upgrade, then move to the P226.
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  #69  
Old 04-25-2014, 8:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Proch View Post
...9mm because of nato.
We need to revamp the 9mm. 9mm Luger was created over 100 years ago. With it being a tapered cartridge, it does not function as well as it could in modern, straight magazine, semi-auto pistols. Don't get me wrong, most manufacturers have figured out how to get around the problem by creating magazine feed lips that get the round higher, and feed ramps that get lower, to mitigate the nosediving problem the tapered cartridge can cause.

They could redo the 9mm with a straight wall cartridge (like 45 ACP and 40 S&W) a little thicker brass, increase the max pressure so that standard pressure rounds can match 9mm +p or greater, and you would have better performance of semi-auto pistols. If you could get NATO to switch it would likely be as cheap as 9mm Luger.

http://www.shootingtimes.com/2014/03...9mm-cartridge/
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  #70  
Old 04-25-2014, 8:06 AM
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Given their popularity with urban youth I think we should consider the Glock Fo-Tee (actually a Hi-Point 9mm) as a serious contender.
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  #71  
Old 04-25-2014, 8:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mat19er8 View Post
FN 5.7
+1 for the FN 5.7
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  #72  
Old 04-25-2014, 8:31 AM
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They should stick with the Beretta 9mm
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  #73  
Old 04-25-2014, 8:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anti View Post
It must have been stressful teaching everyone to handle a .45 back in the day since a lot of people in the military have never even fired a gun before enlisting.

When I served in the early 80's, our pistol training started with safe handling training with a dummy 1911, then transitioned to live fire with a Colt Ace .22 caliber 1911, then to a .45 acp Colt 1911.


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  #74  
Old 04-25-2014, 9:12 AM
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Why not the PX4? Wasn't that meant to be the successor to the 92 anyways?
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  #75  
Old 04-25-2014, 9:18 AM
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anything else
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  #76  
Old 04-25-2014, 9:20 AM
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My biggest concern with the M9 is the magazine base pad which is flush to the bottom of the mag well. This makes double-feed malfunction clearances a bit more troublesome as it is very hard to strip the magazine from the gun without locking the slide back.

User induced over lubrication is also a concern. Keep it clean and lightly lubed.
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Last edited by 1911su16b870; 04-25-2014 at 5:43 PM.. Reason: spelling
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  #77  
Old 04-25-2014, 9:25 AM
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SILENT GUNMAN SILENT GUNMAN is offline
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No love for the new SIG 227? It has what everyone is asking for.

Double stack mags
.45 acp (yeah screw NATO)
DA/SA
Decocker
Proven SIG reliability/durability
Similar size to the P226
Not a wimpy 9mm

Its the perfect gun to switch to if they were going to switch. I would be on board for the Glock 21 as well but since most military members that are trained with a pistol are already trained with DA/SA the transition to the new platform would be fairly simple.
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  #78  
Old 04-25-2014, 9:40 AM
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DDRH DDRH is offline
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HK P30LS 9mm
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  #79  
Old 04-25-2014, 9:41 AM
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Fishslayer Fishslayer is offline
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3rd gen S&W. Maybe 4506. 5906 if you need the spray & pray.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackRydden224
I hope Ruger pays the extortion fees for the SR1911. I mean the gun is just as good if not better than a Les Baer.
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Originally Posted by redcliff View Post
A Colt collector shooting Rugers is like Hugh Grant cheating on Elizabeth Hurley with a hooker.
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  #80  
Old 04-25-2014, 10:00 AM
Bad Caselaw Bad Caselaw is offline
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Glock USA - G23.4/180gr. TMJ.

We're getting out of both NATO and the U.N., right?

America. F'yeah!






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