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  #1  
Old 04-27-2016, 8:12 PM
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Default Multi handgun Filing requirements

so i have a peace officer just purchased off roster firearm, i ordered him two others he wanted and they both decided to come off back order same time. whats the time frame for filling out the ATF3310.12 multi handgun form once the dros for both is done? if i dros both as the same time. If he droses one and then waits 6 days and does another dros does that eliminate the form?
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Old 04-27-2016, 11:31 PM
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multiple within 5 day period gets reported. for us (in cali) I believe it's based on pickup vs. dros start. e.g., customer starts a ppt on day1 and then another on day6 but picks up both on day 16 would get reported. However if pistol on day1 gets picked up on day 11 and pistol from day6 gets picked up day 17 then no report.
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Old 04-28-2016, 8:25 AM
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It is based on when the firearm is delivered, as well as your business days (not the general concept of a business day).

The question is why is there an issue with filling out the form? Many people, especially not in CA, buy multiple firearms at the same time.

What you might want to consider is how it is going to look when it is shown that you are assisting in getting around the multiple firearm reporting. Having a customer who fills out the DROS at the same time, then for some odd reason picks up the firearms at two different times will attract a bit of attention, if it gets noticed.
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Old 04-28-2016, 8:31 AM
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I'm not sure "assisting" is really an issue though is it? If you notify the customer of your reporting requirements and they choose to go around it how is that our problem as a dealer? The forms are public so it's not like it's a hidden thing we're doing. I've never been told it's super secret by atf and not to disclose the process to customers.

Most of my customers don't care, but I had 1 person ask me about it and he chose to DROS separately so he could space the pickups.

I don't know how you would document multiple pickups on the same 4473 with different DROSs. I would expect if someone is doing this then they have an equal number of 4473s match the number of pickups they do since they sign those on pick up.
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Old 04-28-2016, 8:45 AM
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I'd be a little concerned about making any effort to "evade" the reporting requirement by timing the DROS of multiple purchases.

I've made 3-4 multiple purchases during my working days and the FFL submitted the multiple purchase report in each case. The purpose is to provide an alert mechanism to the ATF in the event the purchaser is unlawfully trading the firearms. I had legitimate reasons for each purchase and the weapons still remain in my possession. I've never been contacted by anyone as a result of the submissions.

On the other hand, the feds do take a very dim view of "structured transactions", and I know of many folks who have gone to jail for structuring financial transactions in a manner to avoid reporting.

So long as the buyer is only doing an occasional multiple purchase, I'd be more fearful of sanctions for structured transactions than I would as a result of the multiple purchase notification.
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Old 04-28-2016, 9:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RickD427 View Post
...
On the other hand, the feds do take a very dim view of "structured transactions", and I know of many folks who have gone to jail for structuring financial transactions in a manner to avoid reporting.
....
this reinforces my point that it's possible the buyer would have an issue, but I don't see how this is the FFLs problem.

E.g., if I go into a bank and ask what are the reporting requirements for IRS and then start doing deposits to avoid that wouldn't be my banks problem they told me the rules. however, I could see how as the end customer it could cause a problem as you noted above. The end customer would be assuming that risk (in my opinion) once they decide to do that.
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  #7  
Old 04-28-2016, 9:15 AM
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One other interesting note is that the multiple sales form would never catch a buyer that purchased multiple handguns from multiple dealers and then picked them all up on the same day. I know I don't ask every single customer picking up a handgun if they picked up another in the last 5 days so that I could report it. I only do it if it's at my office.
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  #8  
Old 04-28-2016, 9:26 AM
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If you tell the customer what they need to get around the reporting requirement, then you are involved. Then if you post that you do such things on a public forum, such as this one, then there is evidence that you assisted. The BATF does not have to get you for that, but they can write you up for everything instead of giving a warning.

The bottom line is what do you get out of helping a person to avoid the reporting? Yes, they can do it completely on their own, but it changes when you tell them what the dates are. If you make a mistake, such as you are closed one day per week and so it is really under the time period, do you think you will get any mercy when it appears that you are helping to avoid sending in the reports?

I personally don't like the reporting requirement, but it is required, and until you can get it all tossed out, it is not worth it to play games since you can never win.
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  #9  
Old 04-28-2016, 9:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ugimports View Post
One other interesting note is that the multiple sales form would never catch a buyer that purchased multiple handguns from multiple dealers and then picked them all up on the same day. I know I don't ask every single customer picking up a handgun if they picked up another in the last 5 days so that I could report it. I only do it if it's at my office.
That is not your problem. The BATF gets notification, as well as the CA DOJ, so while there is no form required, it does not noticed. CA is different due to the DROS requirement. In a free state such a purchase would not get noticed, either by one dealer or more than one.
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  #10  
Old 04-28-2016, 9:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ugimports View Post
this reinforces my point that it's possible the buyer would have an issue, but I don't see how this is the FFLs problem.
When the FFL tells the person the required timing so as to avoid it, as well the FFL knows that the person is changing the timing so as to avoid it, then the FFL can have an issue, even if it is not on this specific issue. The FFL can be written up for every little thing, which would normally just be a warning.

Quote:
E.g., if I go into a bank and ask what are the reporting requirements for IRS and then start doing deposits to avoid that wouldn't be my banks problem they told me the rules. however, I could see how as the end customer it could cause a problem as you noted above. The end customer would be assuming that risk (in my opinion) once they decide to do that.
If the bank assists the person, then they become involved.

Remember the form says business days of the FFL, the customer would have to look to see when the FFL is open. If they did that on their own, that is their choice, but if the FFL assists, then it is a different matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ugimports View Post
I'm not sure "assisting" is really an issue though is it? If you notify the customer of your reporting requirements and they choose to go around it how is that our problem as a dealer? The forms are public so it's not like it's a hidden thing we're doing. I've never been told it's super secret by atf and not to disclose the process to customers.
Because you, as a dealer, are telling them what exactly they need to do in over to avoid the reporting.

The BATF does not tell FFL to not tell customers how to hide a straw purchase either, but telling a person how to do it is not a good idea.

Quote:
Most of my customers don't care, but I had 1 person ask me about it and he chose to DROS separately so he could space the pickups.
Which puts you on notice that they are trying to do that. What if that person happens to be a BATF agent?

Quote:
I don't know how you would document multiple pickups on the same 4473 with different DROSs. I would expect if someone is doing this then they have an equal number of 4473s match the number of pickups they do since they sign those on pick up.
Each would have to be done on a separate 4473, which an inspection would likely notice. A FFL could refuse to participate if it gets noticed or the FFL can turn a blind eye. If you think that it won't get noticed, that is quite a gamble.

Again, what do you get out of it? Personally, I tell people the multiple reporting is not that big of a deal, plus if everyone does it, then there is a ton of paperwork for the BATF to go through and that makes it much harder to notice anything.

What are you going to say when the IOI comes in to do an inspection and notices that the same person submitted multiple DROS, but spaced the pickup to avoid having to report it? Do you think that if they notice that, that they are more or less likely to decide to look into what that person is doing and perhaps pay a visit to the person? If the multiple report is filled out, it is not very likely that anything will be done about it.
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  #11  
Old 04-28-2016, 9:58 AM
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Many thanks to Kemasa for giving a good summary, and for saving me a lot of typing.

The bottom line is that if you assist your customer in the commission of a "structured transaction", then you're a principle in the commission of the same offense.
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  #12  
Old 04-28-2016, 12:54 PM
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I'm not and i don't think he even understands the 5 day law or cares about it since he's not trying to avoid it. i guess i worded the context of my question incorrectly but my question was more towards my time frame for filing the paperwork as I've never had to do one before.

If you look at my initial question "whats the time frame for filling out the ATF3310.12 multi handgun form once the dros for both is done?" you can see myself nor my customer was trying evade anything. i secondly simply asked if he DROS'd this first one and picked it up would he have to wait 6 days to do the second dros for the other two to not have to do the form for "IT" also.
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Old 04-28-2016, 1:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
What are you going to say when the IOI comes in to do an inspection and notices that the same person submitted multiple DROS, but spaced the pickup to avoid having to report it? Do you think that if they notice that, that they are more or less likely to decide to look into what that person is doing and perhaps pay a visit to the person? If the multiple report is filled out, it is not very likely that anything will be done about it.
Obviously hiding it whether a customer doing it like that or the FFL doing it on top of publicly asking about on a forum haha is not going to work out legally if thats what your trying to do which is not the case , Say you have customers that buys and DROS a gun then come in and decide they want another gun or even three(as long as the are allowed to) my question is do you fill all of them out on the form or just the dros that had multiples if all transactions are within the 5 business day of said FFL.

Last edited by XxWoodsHunterxX; 04-28-2016 at 1:08 PM..
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Old 04-28-2016, 1:06 PM
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Sometimes threads take a life of their own. It is also unknown what the actual intent of the person who is asking a question, in part due to how the question is asked.

If a person is delivered a firearm within 5 of YOUR business days, then you need to fill out the form. If you are closed weekends, then those two days don't count. The extreme example would be if you were only open on Mondays, then 5 consecutive business days is a long time.
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Old 04-28-2016, 1:15 PM
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Obviously hiding it whether a customer doing it like that or the FFL doing it is not going to work out legally, but when you have customers that buys and DROS a gun then come in and decide they want another gun or even three(as long as the are allowed to) my question is do you fill all of them out on the form or just the dros that had multiples if all transactions are within the 5 business day of said FFL.
There are two reporting requirements, one for handguns and one for limited types of long guns.

If you are open every day and you deliver a firearm and less than five days later you also deliver another firearm, both firearms which are required to be reported, then you would need to file the report. If you delivered a handgun, then 4 days later delver another one, then another 4 days later deliver yet another one, then all three would be required to be reported since it is less than 5 days between the 1st & 2nd, as well as the 2nd & 3rd. It does not matter that between the 1st and 3rd there are more than 5 days, it all gets tied together.

For handguns, the 1 in 30 tends to reduce the amount of reporting required, unless the person is exempt or doing PPTs. For long guns in CA, it is more likely, but the caliber has to be greater than .22, so a .22LR does not count, as well it has to have a detachable (under Federal terms) magazine. A bullet button rifle has a detachable magazine for the Feds.

When the DROS is submitted does not matter, only when the firearms are delivered to the customer.

If the person is a FFL, sole proprietor, then the forms don't apply since they are licensed. The same is true for C&R firearms for a person who has a C&R FFL.
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Old 04-28-2016, 1:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
There are two reporting requirements, one for handguns and one for limited types of long guns.

If you are open every day and you deliver a firearm and less than five days later you also deliver another firearm, both firearms which are required to be reported, then you would need to file the report. If you delivered a handgun, then 4 days later delver another one, then another 4 days later deliver yet another one, then all three would be required to be reported since it is less than 5 days between the 1st & 2nd, as well as the 2nd & 3rd. It does not matter that between the 1st and 3rd there are more than 5 days, it all gets tied together.

For handguns, the 1 in 30 tends to reduce the amount of reporting required, unless the person is exempt or doing PPTs. For long guns in CA, it is more likely, but the caliber has to be greater than .22, so a .22LR does not count, as well it has to have a detachable (under Federal terms) magazine. A bullet button rifle has a detachable magazine for the Feds.

When the DROS is submitted does not matter, only when the firearms are delivered to the customer.

If the person is a FFL, sole proprietor, then the forms don't apply since they are licensed. The same is true for C&R firearms for a person who has a C&R FFL.
Thank you that answered my question. my question was aimed at LEO Dealer Sale. but i was trying to wrap my head around the 5 business days, i wasn't sure if it meant 5 days from the time he picked up his first one and dros'd the other two. he picked the first handgun up on tuesday and wouldn't be able to make it back until monday or tuesday next week so i was trying figure out if i have to put just the second two or all three on the form.
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Old 04-28-2016, 1:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XxWoodsHunterxX View Post
Thank you that answered my question. my question was aimed at LEO Dealer Sale. but i was trying to wrap my head around the 5 business days, i wasn't sure if it meant 5 days from the time he picked up his first one and dros'd the other two. he picked the first handgun up on tuesday and wouldn't be able to make it back until monday or tuesday next week so i was trying figure out if i have to put just the second two or all three on the form.
A lot of it depends on how many days you are open.

If you are open Mon-Wed, then the next Mon would still be within the 5 days.
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Old 04-28-2016, 2:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
A lot of it depends on how many days you are open.

If you are open Mon-Wed, then the next Mon would still be within the 5 days.
Id have to go back to my application and see what i put down as my initial answers of "by appt" didn't fly with them and they wanted actual times and days even though i only work through appt only. but i think did Tues-Sat
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Old 04-28-2016, 2:57 PM
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I would go by what you actually work (in general).

You do have to list one day and time which you are open. This is so that they can do a surprise inspection, but if you list evening hours, then it does not tend to work for them.
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