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FFL's Forum For open discussion between FFLs and polite questions for FFLs. |
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#1
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Multi handgun Filing requirements
so i have a peace officer just purchased off roster firearm, i ordered him two others he wanted and they both decided to come off back order same time. whats the time frame for filling out the ATF3310.12 multi handgun form once the dros for both is done? if i dros both as the same time. If he droses one and then waits 6 days and does another dros does that eliminate the form?
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#2
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multiple within 5 day period gets reported. for us (in cali) I believe it's based on pickup vs. dros start. e.g., customer starts a ppt on day1 and then another on day6 but picks up both on day 16 would get reported. However if pistol on day1 gets picked up on day 11 and pistol from day6 gets picked up day 17 then no report.
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UG Imports - Fremont, CA FFL - Transfers, New Gun Sales Closure Schedule: http://ugimports.com/closed web: http://ugimports.com/calguns / email: sales@ugimports.com phone: (510) 371-GUNS (4867) Crowdsourced 2A Calendar I AM THE MAJORITY!!! Amazon Links Posted May be Paid Links |
#3
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It is based on when the firearm is delivered, as well as your business days (not the general concept of a business day).
The question is why is there an issue with filling out the form? Many people, especially not in CA, buy multiple firearms at the same time. What you might want to consider is how it is going to look when it is shown that you are assisting in getting around the multiple firearm reporting. Having a customer who fills out the DROS at the same time, then for some odd reason picks up the firearms at two different times will attract a bit of attention, if it gets noticed.
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Kemasa. False signature edited by Paul: Banned from the FFL forum due to being rude and insulting. Doing this continues his abuse. Don't tell someone to read the rules he wrote or tell him that he is wrong. Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein |
#4
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I'm not sure "assisting" is really an issue though is it? If you notify the customer of your reporting requirements and they choose to go around it how is that our problem as a dealer? The forms are public so it's not like it's a hidden thing we're doing. I've never been told it's super secret by atf and not to disclose the process to customers.
Most of my customers don't care, but I had 1 person ask me about it and he chose to DROS separately so he could space the pickups. I don't know how you would document multiple pickups on the same 4473 with different DROSs. I would expect if someone is doing this then they have an equal number of 4473s match the number of pickups they do since they sign those on pick up.
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UG Imports - Fremont, CA FFL - Transfers, New Gun Sales Closure Schedule: http://ugimports.com/closed web: http://ugimports.com/calguns / email: sales@ugimports.com phone: (510) 371-GUNS (4867) Crowdsourced 2A Calendar I AM THE MAJORITY!!! Amazon Links Posted May be Paid Links |
#5
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I'd be a little concerned about making any effort to "evade" the reporting requirement by timing the DROS of multiple purchases.
I've made 3-4 multiple purchases during my working days and the FFL submitted the multiple purchase report in each case. The purpose is to provide an alert mechanism to the ATF in the event the purchaser is unlawfully trading the firearms. I had legitimate reasons for each purchase and the weapons still remain in my possession. I've never been contacted by anyone as a result of the submissions. On the other hand, the feds do take a very dim view of "structured transactions", and I know of many folks who have gone to jail for structuring financial transactions in a manner to avoid reporting. So long as the buyer is only doing an occasional multiple purchase, I'd be more fearful of sanctions for structured transactions than I would as a result of the multiple purchase notification. |
#6
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E.g., if I go into a bank and ask what are the reporting requirements for IRS and then start doing deposits to avoid that wouldn't be my banks problem they told me the rules. however, I could see how as the end customer it could cause a problem as you noted above. The end customer would be assuming that risk (in my opinion) once they decide to do that.
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UG Imports - Fremont, CA FFL - Transfers, New Gun Sales Closure Schedule: http://ugimports.com/closed web: http://ugimports.com/calguns / email: sales@ugimports.com phone: (510) 371-GUNS (4867) Crowdsourced 2A Calendar I AM THE MAJORITY!!! Amazon Links Posted May be Paid Links |
#7
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One other interesting note is that the multiple sales form would never catch a buyer that purchased multiple handguns from multiple dealers and then picked them all up on the same day. I know I don't ask every single customer picking up a handgun if they picked up another in the last 5 days so that I could report it. I only do it if it's at my office.
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UG Imports - Fremont, CA FFL - Transfers, New Gun Sales Closure Schedule: http://ugimports.com/closed web: http://ugimports.com/calguns / email: sales@ugimports.com phone: (510) 371-GUNS (4867) Crowdsourced 2A Calendar I AM THE MAJORITY!!! Amazon Links Posted May be Paid Links |
#8
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If you tell the customer what they need to get around the reporting requirement, then you are involved. Then if you post that you do such things on a public forum, such as this one, then there is evidence that you assisted. The BATF does not have to get you for that, but they can write you up for everything instead of giving a warning.
The bottom line is what do you get out of helping a person to avoid the reporting? Yes, they can do it completely on their own, but it changes when you tell them what the dates are. If you make a mistake, such as you are closed one day per week and so it is really under the time period, do you think you will get any mercy when it appears that you are helping to avoid sending in the reports? I personally don't like the reporting requirement, but it is required, and until you can get it all tossed out, it is not worth it to play games since you can never win.
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Kemasa. False signature edited by Paul: Banned from the FFL forum due to being rude and insulting. Doing this continues his abuse. Don't tell someone to read the rules he wrote or tell him that he is wrong. Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein |
#9
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__________________
Kemasa. False signature edited by Paul: Banned from the FFL forum due to being rude and insulting. Doing this continues his abuse. Don't tell someone to read the rules he wrote or tell him that he is wrong. Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein |
#10
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Remember the form says business days of the FFL, the customer would have to look to see when the FFL is open. If they did that on their own, that is their choice, but if the FFL assists, then it is a different matter. Quote:
The BATF does not tell FFL to not tell customers how to hide a straw purchase either, but telling a person how to do it is not a good idea. Quote:
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Again, what do you get out of it? Personally, I tell people the multiple reporting is not that big of a deal, plus if everyone does it, then there is a ton of paperwork for the BATF to go through and that makes it much harder to notice anything. What are you going to say when the IOI comes in to do an inspection and notices that the same person submitted multiple DROS, but spaced the pickup to avoid having to report it? Do you think that if they notice that, that they are more or less likely to decide to look into what that person is doing and perhaps pay a visit to the person? If the multiple report is filled out, it is not very likely that anything will be done about it.
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Kemasa. False signature edited by Paul: Banned from the FFL forum due to being rude and insulting. Doing this continues his abuse. Don't tell someone to read the rules he wrote or tell him that he is wrong. Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein |
#11
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Many thanks to Kemasa for giving a good summary, and for saving me a lot of typing.
The bottom line is that if you assist your customer in the commission of a "structured transaction", then you're a principle in the commission of the same offense. |
#12
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I'm not and i don't think he even understands the 5 day law or cares about it since he's not trying to avoid it. i guess i worded the context of my question incorrectly but my question was more towards my time frame for filing the paperwork as I've never had to do one before.
If you look at my initial question "whats the time frame for filling out the ATF3310.12 multi handgun form once the dros for both is done?" you can see myself nor my customer was trying evade anything. i secondly simply asked if he DROS'd this first one and picked it up would he have to wait 6 days to do the second dros for the other two to not have to do the form for "IT" also. |
#13
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Last edited by XxWoodsHunterxX; 04-28-2016 at 1:08 PM.. |
#14
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Sometimes threads take a life of their own. It is also unknown what the actual intent of the person who is asking a question, in part due to how the question is asked.
If a person is delivered a firearm within 5 of YOUR business days, then you need to fill out the form. If you are closed weekends, then those two days don't count. The extreme example would be if you were only open on Mondays, then 5 consecutive business days is a long time.
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Kemasa. False signature edited by Paul: Banned from the FFL forum due to being rude and insulting. Doing this continues his abuse. Don't tell someone to read the rules he wrote or tell him that he is wrong. Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein |
#15
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If you are open every day and you deliver a firearm and less than five days later you also deliver another firearm, both firearms which are required to be reported, then you would need to file the report. If you delivered a handgun, then 4 days later delver another one, then another 4 days later deliver yet another one, then all three would be required to be reported since it is less than 5 days between the 1st & 2nd, as well as the 2nd & 3rd. It does not matter that between the 1st and 3rd there are more than 5 days, it all gets tied together. For handguns, the 1 in 30 tends to reduce the amount of reporting required, unless the person is exempt or doing PPTs. For long guns in CA, it is more likely, but the caliber has to be greater than .22, so a .22LR does not count, as well it has to have a detachable (under Federal terms) magazine. A bullet button rifle has a detachable magazine for the Feds. When the DROS is submitted does not matter, only when the firearms are delivered to the customer. If the person is a FFL, sole proprietor, then the forms don't apply since they are licensed. The same is true for C&R firearms for a person who has a C&R FFL.
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Kemasa. False signature edited by Paul: Banned from the FFL forum due to being rude and insulting. Doing this continues his abuse. Don't tell someone to read the rules he wrote or tell him that he is wrong. Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein |
#16
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#17
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If you are open Mon-Wed, then the next Mon would still be within the 5 days.
__________________
Kemasa. False signature edited by Paul: Banned from the FFL forum due to being rude and insulting. Doing this continues his abuse. Don't tell someone to read the rules he wrote or tell him that he is wrong. Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein |
#18
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Id have to go back to my application and see what i put down as my initial answers of "by appt" didn't fly with them and they wanted actual times and days even though i only work through appt only. but i think did Tues-Sat
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#19
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I would go by what you actually work (in general).
You do have to list one day and time which you are open. This is so that they can do a surprise inspection, but if you list evening hours, then it does not tend to work for them.
__________________
Kemasa. False signature edited by Paul: Banned from the FFL forum due to being rude and insulting. Doing this continues his abuse. Don't tell someone to read the rules he wrote or tell him that he is wrong. Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein |
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