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Curio & Relic/Black Powder Curio & Relics and Black Powder Firearms, Old School shooting fun! |
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#1
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Colt 1849 revolver requires an FFL?
I recently purchase an antique Colt 1849 percussion cap black powder revolver from an auction on GunBroker.com
The seller had nothing in their description about not selling to California (Some have a blanket policy they don't ship to California period FFL or no FFL) and in fact said no FFL required. Now they are demanding an FFL to ship the revolver to. This adds well over $100 to the process. My understanding is in California that an antique (pre 1898) can be shipped directly to a person as long as it's not a rim or center fire cartridge. I'm pretty new to black powder, can anyone shed some light on this? I've been trying to get ahold of my FFL, but I believe he's hunting over the holidays. A search for California law regarding this hasn't turned up anything except hunting with BP. A link to California law would be greatly appreciated! Happy New Year CalGunners!
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"Ideas are more dangerous than guns. I don't allow my people to have guns, so why would I allow them to have ideas?" - Joseph Stalin |
#2
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No FFL is needed. However, if the seller now insists on a FFL being involved, let the seller pay the fees. The seller's add clearly stated "no FFL" so, I bet Gunbroker would back you if you choose to renege on the transaction due to the clearly false advertising. Leave the seller exceptionally negative feedback after contacting gunbroker to see if they can resolve the issue.
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NRA Certified Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun and Metallic Cartridge Reloading Instructor California DOJ Certified Fingerprint Roller Ventura County approved CCW Instructor Utah CCW Instructor Offering low cost multi state CCW, private basic shooting and reloading classes for calgunners. CCW SAFE MEMBERSHIPS HERE KM6WLV |
#3
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Thank you! Great advice about about gunbroker!
I would like to send him back a link that proves I am in the right, is there any such link from the state? Or if it's considered a non firearm nothing exists? Thanks again!
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"Ideas are more dangerous than guns. I don't allow my people to have guns, so why would I allow them to have ideas?" - Joseph Stalin |
#4
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Quote:
https://www.quora.com/Is-it-legal-in...ning-a-license It does a good job explaining the laws while quoting the applicable CA PCs.
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NRA Certified Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun and Metallic Cartridge Reloading Instructor California DOJ Certified Fingerprint Roller Ventura County approved CCW Instructor Utah CCW Instructor Offering low cost multi state CCW, private basic shooting and reloading classes for calgunners. CCW SAFE MEMBERSHIPS HERE KM6WLV |
#6
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http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/in...tique_Firearms It is pretty clear that CA treats antiques as non-firearms for purposes of lawful transfer. Also, it doesn’t matter if it fires modern centerfire ammo. If it was made before 1899, it is exempt from needing a FFL federally and state. 18 USC 921(a)(16) Quote:
Last edited by SkyHawk; 01-01-2019 at 12:03 PM.. |
#7
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the wiki link is nice, but I had trouble following it. At the top it says "while transfers may be made without an FFL...". However, none of the PCs it lists below that, actually say that. CA follows the federal definition for the exemptions to assault weapons, safety locks, and needing an FSC. There's a different definition for the exemption to "generally prohibited weapons", which seems to allow things like odd antique sword-guns and such. There's a typo that says 16250, but it means 16520. That part basically says even antiques are still firearms if you are a prohibited person.
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#8
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I agree the WIKI is hinky. Ok so here it is:
PC27545 requires a FFL for firearms transfer if one person is not a FFL - this is the base law that sets up the requirement that we use FFLs here in CA for all transfers: https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...ctionNum=27545 Quote:
PC 16520(d)(12) says an unloaded Antique Firearm is not a firearm for purposes of 27545: https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...ctionNum=16520 Quote:
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https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/921 Quote:
So there you have it: A, B, C, D Any firearm made before 1899 REGARDLESS of what ammo it uses, is exempt from the requirement of using a FFL for transfer. Last edited by SkyHawk; 01-01-2019 at 12:47 PM.. |
#9
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It is not a firearm, therefore the guy can even send it US Mail in a bubble pouch if he wanted. He's being a jerk and trying to extort some extra $$ from you probably claiming he must send it 2nd day or overnight. Total BS. Like I said previously, if you can get him to send it regular mail or shipping, I will receive it for you and forward it along to you through regular shipping. Hopefully that would cut the cost down some. |
#10
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Thank you all for information! It's been resolved. I sent him Penal Code 16170 as well as others and he's sending it to me tomorrow. Bookmarked for future issues. You all are the best!
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"Ideas are more dangerous than guns. I don't allow my people to have guns, so why would I allow them to have ideas?" - Joseph Stalin |
#11
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Thanks skyhawk. I understood 16170, and the rest was there in 16520, which is the one that lists two dozen other PCs that it applies to, referencing back to 27545. Whew. Now what's making my head spin is why 26 USC defines antique differently. I know it's the "tax code" section, but that one says that if it fires centerfire it can't be an antique regardless of year.
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#12
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Last edited by SkyHawk; 01-01-2019 at 6:04 PM.. |
#13
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I've run into weird situations, like that, with out-of-state GB sellers too. Sometimes they listen to reason and follow the law as written, and sometimes they just insist on doing things their own way. It looks like you are dealing with one of the reasonable ones. Enjoy your early Colt!
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#14
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Just a suggestion, but before I bid on an antique (or muzzle loader) from an out of state seller or auction house I send an email telling them I am considering placing a bid, but want to confirm they understand that as an antique that they can, and will, send to me direct if I win.
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THBailey As Will Rogers once said: "Everyone is ignorant, only in different subjects." |
#15
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Pre 1899 mfg classified as a antique. Even if the firearm was reworked/rebuilt with newer mfg parts later on, as long as the firearms retains the original receiver (in case of a rifle or shotgun) or frame in the case of a handgun)
Here is a photo from Empire Arms Antiques "sold" list. The rifle in the photo was built using a 1893 dated receiver. https://www.empirearms.com/10172.jpg |
#16
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well if you look at the ATF website, they list the definition of "antique firearm" using the 26 USC. I'm betting that's what some gunbroker folks and dealers are relying on. It clearly says anything that fires a modern/available cartridge is not an antique. So .45-70 trapdoors, 7.62x54r mosins, cannot be antique. It seems really sketchy that they do that, if 26 USC in fact is not the governing regulation for transfers.
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#17
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Gun Control Act Definitions Antique Firearm 18 U.S.C., § 921(A)(16) The term “Antique Firearm” means: A. Any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; and B. Any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade" . |
#18
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They only do that in the NFA guide to identification. National Firearms Act deals with restricted firearms like full auto, short barrel etc. 26 USC 5845 says ‘for purposes of this chapter’. It is from Chapter 53 - aka the National Firearms Act, which deals with machine guns and the like. So I would assume the more restrictive definition of antique only applies to those types of weapons. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/5845 Quote:
But the Gun Control Act definition in 18 USC 921, which deals with transfers of regular firearms, has a looser definition of antique. Last edited by SkyHawk; 01-02-2019 at 7:53 PM.. |
#19
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I would agree it's a bit confusing. My hunch is that reputable FFL dealers, like Empire Arms, in the business of specializing in older firearms, such as C&Rs and antiques have gotten a legal opinion on what qualifies as a antique firearm.......otherwise they could risk their FFL and livelihood
https://www.libertytreecollectors.co...2&idcategory=4 Last edited by sakosf; 01-02-2019 at 7:56 PM.. |
#20
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on point again, skyhawk. I had seen "for the purposes of this chapter" but other than being in the Tax Code section, I couldn't figure out what the chapter itself was for. NFA now makes sense. So it appears that pre-1899 NFA items are not antique, but pre-1899 standard rifles are. I guess that also applies to short-barrel rifles like the winchester trappers that would have to still be C&R even though their age puts them where antiques would be.
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#21
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But for us folks here in CA when dealing with standard arms, pre-1899 is antique using any ammo. Last edited by SkyHawk; 01-02-2019 at 9:02 PM.. |
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