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Old 12-31-2018, 2:55 PM
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Default Colt 1849 revolver requires an FFL?

I recently purchase an antique Colt 1849 percussion cap black powder revolver from an auction on GunBroker.com

The seller had nothing in their description about not selling to California (Some have a blanket policy they don't ship to California period FFL or no FFL) and in fact said no FFL required. Now they are demanding an FFL to ship the revolver to. This adds well over $100 to the process.

My understanding is in California that an antique (pre 1898) can be shipped directly to a person as long as it's not a rim or center fire cartridge.

I'm pretty new to black powder, can anyone shed some light on this? I've been trying to get ahold of my FFL, but I believe he's hunting over the holidays. A search for California law regarding this hasn't turned up anything except hunting with BP. A link to California law would be greatly appreciated!

Happy New Year CalGunners!
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Old 12-31-2018, 3:12 PM
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No FFL is needed. However, if the seller now insists on a FFL being involved, let the seller pay the fees. The seller's add clearly stated "no FFL" so, I bet Gunbroker would back you if you choose to renege on the transaction due to the clearly false advertising. Leave the seller exceptionally negative feedback after contacting gunbroker to see if they can resolve the issue.
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Old 12-31-2018, 3:18 PM
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Thank you! Great advice about about gunbroker!

I would like to send him back a link that proves I am in the right, is there any such link from the state? Or if it's considered a non firearm nothing exists?

Thanks again!
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Old 01-01-2019, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DCP556 View Post
Thank you! Great advice about about gunbroker!

I would like to send him back a link that proves I am in the right, is there any such link from the state? Or if it's considered a non firearm nothing exists?

Thanks again!
I was looking up CA penal codes to send to him but, I found this instead:

https://www.quora.com/Is-it-legal-in...ning-a-license

It does a good job explaining the laws while quoting the applicable CA PCs.
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Old 01-01-2019, 11:10 AM
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If push comes to shove and he will not budge, I can receive it for you and ship it to you.
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Old 01-01-2019, 11:24 AM
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Quote:
ARTICLE 1. Crimes Relating to Sale, Lease, or Transfer of Firearms [27500 - 27590] ( Article 1 added by Stats. 2010, Ch. 711, Sec. 6. )

27505.
(a) No person, corporation, or firm shall sell, loan, or transfer a firearm to a minor, nor sell a handgun to an individual under 21 years of age.
(b) Subdivision (a) shall not apply to or affect the following circumstances:
(1) The sale of a handgun, if the handgun is an antique firearm and the sale is to a person at least 18 years of age.
Quote:
31615.
(a) A person shall not do either of the following:
(1) Purchase or receive any firearm, except an antique firearm, without a valid firearm safety certificate, except that in the case of a handgun, an unexpired handgun safety certificate may be used.
(2) Sell, deliver, loan, or transfer any firearm, except an antique firearm, to any person who does not have a valid firearm safety certificate, except that in the case of a handgun, an unexpired handgun safety certificate may be used.
Quote:
16170.
(a) As used in Sections 30515 and 30530, “antique firearm” means any firearm manufactured before January 1, 1899.
(b) As used in Section 16520, Section 16650, subdivision (a) of Section 23630, paragraph (1) of subdivision (b) of Section 27505, and subdivision (a) of Section 31615, “antique firearm” has the same meaning as in Section 921(a)(16) of Title 18 of the United States Code.
(c) As used in Section 17700, “antique firearm” means either of the following:
(1) Any firearm not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898. This includes any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898.
(2) Any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.


http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/in...tique_Firearms

It is pretty clear that CA treats antiques as non-firearms for purposes of lawful transfer.

Also, it doesn’t matter if it fires modern centerfire ammo. If it was made before 1899, it is exempt from needing a FFL federally and state. 18 USC 921(a)(16)

Quote:
(16) The term “antique firearm” means—
(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or
(B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica—
(i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or
(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or
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Old 01-01-2019, 12:14 PM
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the wiki link is nice, but I had trouble following it. At the top it says "while transfers may be made without an FFL...". However, none of the PCs it lists below that, actually say that. CA follows the federal definition for the exemptions to assault weapons, safety locks, and needing an FSC. There's a different definition for the exemption to "generally prohibited weapons", which seems to allow things like odd antique sword-guns and such. There's a typo that says 16250, but it means 16520. That part basically says even antiques are still firearms if you are a prohibited person.
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Old 01-01-2019, 12:41 PM
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I agree the WIKI is hinky. Ok so here it is:

PC27545 requires a FFL for firearms transfer if one person is not a FFL - this is the base law that sets up the requirement that we use FFLs here in CA for all transfers:

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...ctionNum=27545

Quote:
Where neither party to the transaction holds a dealer’s license issued pursuant to Sections 26700 to 26915, inclusive, the parties to the transaction shall complete the sale, loan, or transfer of that firearm through a licensed firearms dealer pursuant to Chapter 5 (commencing with Section 28050).

PC 16520(d)(12) says an unloaded Antique Firearm is not a firearm for purposes of 27545:

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...ctionNum=16520


Quote:
(d) As used in the following provisions, “firearm” does not include an unloaded antique firearm:

(12) Section 27545.
And finally, PC 16170(b) says the definition of antique in 16520 is the same as the fed definition in 18 USC 921(a)(16):
Quote:

16170.
(b) As used in Section 16520, Section 16650, subdivision (a) of Section 23630, paragraph (1) of subdivision (b) of Section 27505, and subdivision (a) of Section 31615, “antique firearm” has the same meaning as in Section 921(a)(16) of Title 18 of the United States Code.
Which says:

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/921

Quote:
(a) As used in this chapter—
...
(16) The term “antique firearm” means—
(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898;


So there you have it: A, B, C, D

Any firearm made before 1899 REGARDLESS of what ammo it uses, is exempt from the requirement of using a FFL for transfer.
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Old 01-01-2019, 2:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DCP556 View Post
... Now they are demanding an FFL to ship the revolver to. This adds well over $100 to the process.....



It is not a firearm, therefore the guy can even send it US Mail in a bubble pouch if he wanted. He's being a jerk and trying to extort some extra $$ from you probably claiming he must send it 2nd day or overnight. Total BS. Like I said previously, if you can get him to send it regular mail or shipping, I will receive it for you and forward it along to you through regular shipping. Hopefully that would cut the cost down some.
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Old 01-01-2019, 5:57 PM
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Thank you all for information! It's been resolved. I sent him Penal Code 16170 as well as others and he's sending it to me tomorrow. Bookmarked for future issues. You all are the best!
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Old 01-01-2019, 5:57 PM
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Thanks skyhawk. I understood 16170, and the rest was there in 16520, which is the one that lists two dozen other PCs that it applies to, referencing back to 27545. Whew. Now what's making my head spin is why 26 USC defines antique differently. I know it's the "tax code" section, but that one says that if it fires centerfire it can't be an antique regardless of year.
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Old 01-01-2019, 6:02 PM
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Originally Posted by sbo80 View Post
Thanks skyhawk. I understood 16170, and the rest was there in 16520, which is the one that lists two dozen other PCs that it applies to, referencing back to 27545. Whew. Now what's making my head spin is why 26 USC defines antique differently. I know it's the "tax code" section, but that one says that if it fires centerfire it can't be an antique regardless of year.
IIRC that definition is from the 1930s sometime, and I don’t know what it applies to (maybe someone else can help us). The GCA of 1968 made the new definition defined in 18 USC 921. And that is the one that CA transfer law refers back to.
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Old 01-02-2019, 9:05 AM
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Originally Posted by DCP556 View Post
Thank you all for information! It's been resolved. I sent him Penal Code 16170 as well as others and he's sending it to me tomorrow. Bookmarked for future issues. You all are the best!
Glad it got resolved for you.

I've run into weird situations, like that, with out-of-state GB sellers too. Sometimes they listen to reason and follow the law as written, and sometimes they just insist on doing things their own way.

It looks like you are dealing with one of the reasonable ones.

Enjoy your early Colt!
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Old 01-02-2019, 3:37 PM
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Just a suggestion, but before I bid on an antique (or muzzle loader) from an out of state seller or auction house I send an email telling them I am considering placing a bid, but want to confirm they understand that as an antique that they can, and will, send to me direct if I win.
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Old 01-02-2019, 6:12 PM
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Pre 1899 mfg classified as a antique. Even if the firearm was reworked/rebuilt with newer mfg parts later on, as long as the firearms retains the original receiver (in case of a rifle or shotgun) or frame in the case of a handgun)

Here is a photo from Empire Arms Antiques "sold" list. The rifle in the photo was built using a 1893 dated receiver.
https://www.empirearms.com/10172.jpg
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Old 01-02-2019, 7:02 PM
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well if you look at the ATF website, they list the definition of "antique firearm" using the 26 USC. I'm betting that's what some gunbroker folks and dealers are relying on. It clearly says anything that fires a modern/available cartridge is not an antique. So .45-70 trapdoors, 7.62x54r mosins, cannot be antique. It seems really sketchy that they do that, if 26 USC in fact is not the governing regulation for transfers.
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Old 01-02-2019, 7:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sbo80 View Post
well if you look at the ATF website, they list the definition of "antique firearm" using the 26 USC. I'm betting that's what some gunbroker folks and dealers are relying on. It clearly says anything that fires a modern/available cartridge is not an antique. So .45-70 trapdoors, 7.62x54r mosins, cannot be antique. It seems really sketchy that they do that, if 26 USC in fact is not the governing regulation for transfers.
"Firearms Verification
Gun Control Act Definitions
Antique Firearm

18 U.S.C., § 921(A)(16)

The term “Antique Firearm” means:

A. Any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; and B. Any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade"





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Old 01-02-2019, 7:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sbo80 View Post
well if you look at the ATF website, they list the definition of "antique firearm" using the 26 USC. I'm betting that's what some gunbroker folks and dealers are relying on. It clearly says anything that fires a modern/available cartridge is not an antique. So .45-70 trapdoors, 7.62x54r mosins, cannot be antique. It seems really sketchy that they do that, if 26 USC in fact is not the governing regulation for transfers.
OK I think I got it figured out now.

They only do that in the NFA guide to identification. National Firearms Act deals with restricted firearms like full auto, short barrel etc.

26 USC 5845 says ‘for purposes of this chapter’. It is from Chapter 53 - aka the National Firearms Act, which deals with machine guns and the like. So I would assume the more restrictive definition of antique only applies to those types of weapons.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/5845

Quote:
26 U.S. Code Chapter 53 - MACHINE GUNS, DESTRUCTIVE DEVICES, AND CERTAIN OTHER FIREARMS


26 U.S. Code § 5845 - Definitions

For the purpose of this chapter—

(g) Antique firearm
The term “antique firearm” means any firearm not designed or redesigned for using rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898 (including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898) and also any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.
So yes, it can be confusing if you aren’t really paying attention. A google search of ‘ATF antique firearms’ leads you first to the National Firearms Act guide to antiques, and for those there is an ammo type restriction.

But the Gun Control Act definition in 18 USC 921, which deals with transfers of regular firearms, has a looser definition of antique.
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Old 01-02-2019, 7:52 PM
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I would agree it's a bit confusing. My hunch is that reputable FFL dealers, like Empire Arms, in the business of specializing in older firearms, such as C&Rs and antiques have gotten a legal opinion on what qualifies as a antique firearm.......otherwise they could risk their FFL and livelihood

https://www.libertytreecollectors.co...2&idcategory=4

Last edited by sakosf; 01-02-2019 at 7:56 PM..
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Old 01-02-2019, 8:25 PM
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on point again, skyhawk. I had seen "for the purposes of this chapter" but other than being in the Tax Code section, I couldn't figure out what the chapter itself was for. NFA now makes sense. So it appears that pre-1899 NFA items are not antique, but pre-1899 standard rifles are. I guess that also applies to short-barrel rifles like the winchester trappers that would have to still be C&R even though their age puts them where antiques would be.
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Old 01-02-2019, 8:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sbo80 View Post
on point again, skyhawk. I had seen "for the purposes of this chapter" but other than being in the Tax Code section, I couldn't figure out what the chapter itself was for. NFA now makes sense. So it appears that pre-1899 NFA items are not antique, but pre-1899 standard rifles are. I guess that also applies to short-barrel rifles like the winchester trappers that would have to still be C&R even though their age puts them where antiques would be.
Yes, you got it - although pre 1899 NFA arms that use non-modern ammo (no centerfire or rimfire) or that uses otherwise generally unobtainable ammo are “NFA antique”, although there still may be transfer restrictions on them - as a CA resident I am not a NFA expert.

But for us folks here in CA when dealing with standard arms, pre-1899 is antique using any ammo.
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