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Competition, Action Shooting And Training. Competition, Three gun, IPSC, IDPA , and Training discussion here. |
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#1
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IDPA 5x5 Classifier - What is it? And why?
After a few months' of absence, I go back to IDPA...
So, I get to the range early and see a few doing the 5x5 Classifier... Well, I have heard about this "new" classifier, but never dug deep into the details. I see an acquaintance of me, and he invited me over to try it out, even for at least, a "warm up" to the match. Since it was only $10, I acquiesced. Starting cold - I basically, ended with 23.62, inclusive of 2-points down. This places me in the EXPERT class for SSP... First things that go into my mind is "what the hell is this classifier?" (It feels too easy to rank up) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIt2vD6TgZE Even though the last classifier I took was about a year back (the "traditional" 72-rounder with 120.64), I would believe I am still an SS (Sharpshooter). Just by looking at match performance, the EX class is still a TOO FAR a reach. During one of the state regionals held in Bakersfield, I ranked a measly 24/57 SS, and 6/17 SSP SS. Definitely NOT EXpert class!!! I talked to some of my squad mates, and some have the perception that the 5x5 was introduced by "some members" who can't seem to rank up the classification with the "traditional" classifier. They add that this becomes a problem because you get bucketed in a class higher than your own capabilities. Is this true? Some even add that they would never take the 5x5 (yeah, now they tell me AFTER I have taken it)... I have tried Google - but can't seem to find any convincing enough argument for its introduction. Not even in IDPA.com... Even the Multibriefs link (http://www.multibriefs.com/briefs/id...Classifier.pdf) wasn't sufficient enough. Could anyone chime in? Cheers... _
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WEGC - Shooting at 10-yards VS 20-yards - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7mdbNZ4j9U |
#2
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Not sure this is the real reason, but what I heard, was people could shoot this classifier the morning of the match so they were "classified" for the match. I have also heard, your concern. That it is a little too easy and you can classify beyond your abilities.
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#3
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Say, one is a Novice; but an extremely talented Novice. If that individual takes the 5x5, it would be safe to assume that he/she would be bumped up to Marksman. If one is going for a trophy, etc. or say, a "match promotion" (way cooler than taking a Classifier) - wouldn't it make more sense to compete in the Novice division? Why would someone want a bump up such he/she will be in the bottom end of the higher class, than, say, maybe in the mid- to top- in his/her current class. I'm terribly confused... _ |
#5
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__________________
"Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue." ----Sen. Barry Goldwater Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." ----Benjamin Franklin NRA life member CRPA member Last edited by OCEquestrian; 06-24-2018 at 6:38 PM.. |
#6
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But the presumption is that the 5x5 is on par with the traditional 72-rounder...
Back to my example, if the talented NV may not make MM in the 72-rounder, but, may make MM in the 5x5. Based on just talking with my squad mates and acquaintances on others squads - they don't seem to look at the 5x5 favorably. Hhhmmmm... Am I missing something here? _ |
#7
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Did you shoot the IDPA match at Prado today? I was there. I have not shot the 5x5 and dont intend to. I prefer the old school classifier with three stages. Additionally, I got a match bump last fall that will take me some time to develop into the next higher level.
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"Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue." ----Sen. Barry Goldwater Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." ----Benjamin Franklin NRA life member CRPA member |
#8
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Yup. Shot it today. Albeit, didn't perform too well... *sigh*
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I wasn't intending on shooting it (like you, I prefer the "old school" course of fire) until an acquaintance talked me into it... Quote:
_ Last edited by rodralig; 06-24-2018 at 7:09 PM.. |
#9
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It wasnt my best day. Several errors cost me a bit. What were you shooting? squad?
2018 South Mountain Showdown in Phoenix Az. It was a good match with some very famous shooters competing.
__________________
"Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue." ----Sen. Barry Goldwater Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." ----Benjamin Franklin NRA life member CRPA member Last edited by OCEquestrian; 06-24-2018 at 8:14 PM.. |
#10
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When the 5x5 came out, we all thought it would be too easy to class up. So, we shot it as a match stage. Out of 36 shooters, only one moved up, and two (including one master) shot below their rank. Not a huge test, but it did not appear to be as easy as it seemed.
At a big match, there doesn’t seem to be a big change from SS to EX. I shot a tier 4 match last year and my time placed me 10th in both divisions. Winning SS time was faster than the winning EX time. It happens. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk |
#11
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I guess with the 5x5 having no strings that demonstrate techniques usually found in most matches, there was an assumption that it would have been easy. WHO, target-to-target transitions, varied distances, shooting on the move, long range, etc. Personally, at least, I do find it comparatively easier compared to the traditional one Albeit, my last 72-round classifier was May of last year, when I first got into matches... I would think that once one has a respectable draw and reload, it all comes down to recoil management and trigger control. It's a single target. That said, I find the USPSA-style classifiers rather challenging! With so many courses of fire, you really wouldn't know which one will be used on match day. Moreso that it is not one single score, but an average from the most recent scores. Oh well... Each organization is to its own Quote:
I was shooting a Glock 34 Gen 3, and was in squad #2. That said, in spite of all my lackluster performance, IMO, I ranked quite up near the top 10. HIGHER than I ever ranked in the Prado match!?! There was at least a 50-sec gap between 1st overall and mine. I guess there were not many of the usual top shooters participating... _ |
#12
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El Presidente - 5A 5C 2D Nuevo El Presidente ( has a partial and two no shoots on targets) - 10A 1C 1D, 1.15 second slower than the first due to making sure I was out of the hard cover and NS. First one was 9 points down. Second one was 3 points down. Hit factor for the two courses of fire were pretty close the first one being 0.0533 HF better. If this was an IDPA course of fire the second string would have been a much better score by several seconds instead of first one barely edging out the second one. Kinda accentuates the difference between the games. Lesson here, at least for me is to shoot IDPA matches as if there is a NS around "down zero" in order to make the mental adjustment
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"... when a man has shot an elephant his life is full"- John Alfred Jordan "A set of ivory tusks speaks of a life well lived." - Unknown Last edited by tanks; 06-25-2018 at 7:43 AM.. |
#13
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Standing in front of a target and shooting fast and accurate is just that, speed bullseye shooting, not IDPA shooting. Now my opinion on the matter is just that, my opinion. I feel the 5x5 has a place for the new (to competition)unclassified shooter that wants to shoot a sanctioned match at the last minute. It’s quick to set up and shoot, great for on a first thing match day ordeal. But as a real determining factor nope, I personally know quite a few people who refuse to shoot it or have thrown a shot because they know they’ll be bumped up a class or two, but have consistently ranked mid pack competing in their class. I also think it was made the way it was for the guys that want to be expert or master but lack the actual skills to compete at that level, so the dropped the bar. Now on a business level (this is a business after all) you drop the bar, you get more competitors at the higher levels, who cares if those poor saps that were sharpshooters that had a freak good day and qualified master get hosed at every single match because of a static qualifier. But hey, you can go around and say your a master shooter, even though you were in the Z-main and last place while still under the top 20 of the sharpshooters scores. Is it fair, it’s all in the eye of the beholder. Personally I think they cheated it out when they took out the low cover and then again took out the movement, but that’s my opinion.
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We'll just give them the 'ol number 6. |
#14
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#15
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Too true, been there and done that. Got my bump into a class that I had no business being in. Tried to compete and ultimately ended my competition permanently in dh mountain bike.
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We'll just give them the 'ol number 6. |
#16
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In competition, it makes sense to be split by divisions since that's based on the equipment. Separating and measuring by class is there so some people can get ribbons, but otherwise it completely misses the point - division is a level playing field and just because some of us suck doesn't mean we get our own playground so we can "win a trophy for coming in towards the bottom of the rankings." Looking at class standing is like saying "I finished FIRST* in the marathon I ran last week." (* Out of people who didn't finish in the top 1,000.) Normally, you'd just say "I finished 1,001 and got a participation ribbon."
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#17
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From what I have seen standing in front of the target (behind cover lines) and shooting fast and accurate is actually IDPA shooting. There is not a lot of movement for the most part. Cover rules, and tactical priority prohibit shooting on the move, it is more shoot at one position, run/walk to another position and shoot again. Bunch of static shooting positions tied together in a COF.
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"... when a man has shot an elephant his life is full"- John Alfred Jordan "A set of ivory tusks speaks of a life well lived." - Unknown |
#18
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__________________
"Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue." ----Sen. Barry Goldwater Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." ----Benjamin Franklin NRA life member CRPA member Last edited by OCEquestrian; 06-25-2018 at 12:55 PM.. |
#19
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Look, I get it. It a shooters game. The way IDPA is going, it is getting away from concealed carry ideology and more towards uspsa and ipsc in its current format, except with the contrasting rules it’s all over the place. My theory is that IDPA is trying to pull in more shooters from the other venues to generate revenue. In order to do this, it’s changed the core structure a bit to accommodate some of the “gamer” aspect.
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We'll just give them the 'ol number 6. |
#20
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Even in USPSA majority of classifiers are stand and shoot though match scores do seem to follow closely.
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"... when a man has shot an elephant his life is full"- John Alfred Jordan "A set of ivory tusks speaks of a life well lived." - Unknown |
#21
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As for your Sharpshooter/Expert class, note that Sharpshooter is one of the biggest sandbagger classes in the sport. The traditional classifier does make it tough to reach Expert, and many Sharpshooters go out of their way to stay in that Class since it improves their chances at winning. I've seen people switch from divisions prior to a sanctioned match simply to avoid a match bump should they win or place well in their class. Quote:
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My friends and family disavow all knowledge of my existence, let alone my opinions. |
#22
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[QUOTE=Gryff;21804802] introduce new rules to address the apparent incompetence of the SOs (fault lines, no mandating shooting on the move),[/QUOTE} You say incompetence, I say that is standardizing the rule and making it easier to watch for while your focus is correctly most all the time centered on what the shooter is doing with the gun. I hope you are right... as that would push me out of it.
__________________
"Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue." ----Sen. Barry Goldwater Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." ----Benjamin Franklin NRA life member CRPA member |
#23
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The top shooters are very accurate in addition to being very fast. Just look at National and Regional match scores.
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"... when a man has shot an elephant his life is full"- John Alfred Jordan "A set of ivory tusks speaks of a life well lived." - Unknown |
#24
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I guess I am one of those that definitely needs to build speed. Well, I guess the damage is done. I am now officially an EXPERT shooter in the SSP division... And would now need to double my efforts to rise to the occasion. This is JUST TOO EARLY for comfort. I just got started in firearms in mid-2016, started in matches mid-2017, and now an EX in IDPA!?! (and I only shoot matches at most once a month...) Quote:
As always, thank you!!! Quote:
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Yup! My name starts with an "A." _ Last edited by rodralig; 06-25-2018 at 1:28 PM.. |
#25
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My understanding is that the 5x5 came around really because the long course was just taking clubs to long. The 5x5 also allows clubs that do not have California like weather to set it up at an indoor range.
I do agree that it is easier and one will level up quicker as long as they make their hits. |
#26
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You should be comparing yourself to the Match winner or at least to your Division winner. Disregard the artificial classification. Finishing 30th and calling it a first, isn't anything to be proud of.
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Originally Posted by OCEquestrian View Post Excellent! I am thinking about it as well and I only have 4 points and an unfortunate "match bump" up to expert classification where I am far less "competitive" with my peers there. |
#27
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However, I would pick a game and stick with it for a while. I am biased so I'd recommend USPSA. More rounds per match, more challenging courses of fire and better shooters in the USPSA matches as a rule. Of course, it might "get you killed in the streets", but the risk is worth it.
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"... when a man has shot an elephant his life is full"- John Alfred Jordan "A set of ivory tusks speaks of a life well lived." - Unknown |
#28
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Assuming you're indeed a mid-C, classifiers will tell you when you've improved enough to be a mid-B. You can chase the classification, you can push it a bit, but overall you'll have to be at a certain level before you start shooting that level classifiers. Remember, USPSA has a lot of different classifiers so it's much more difficult to practice just for grandbagging. That's the idea of "tracking progress."
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#29
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It's only a joke if people use it to try to win (or be competitive) within a class. Unless it's the GM class. Then it's okay to try to win the class.
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#30
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IDPA doesn't so much "emphasize accuracy" as it "penalizes speed." It's almost as if it's designed for people who don't want to get better in action shooting, so they can keep on doing the "bench rest style shooting" and avoid having to address the speed aspect of both action shooting and self defense. If IDPA went further into accuracy extreme, say more penalties for down points and smaller scoring zones, you'd end up with bullseye shooting matches where the most accurate person wins regardless of time. Nothing wrong with that per se, just not what people consider "action shooting." Also wouldn't be relevant for self defense. Finally, getting an Alpha in self defense scenario does not mean successful self defense - there are too many "non-vital holes" in Alpha zone where the bullet can go through and do limited damage. If you wanted to be realistic, each target should have vitals randomly placed on the target and not visible from distance. Then you get extra time every time you don't hit the area that you don't even know where it is in the first place. Quite random. That would be "much more realistic," yet it would completely kill the concept of "shooting for accuracy" since you'd have to admit that accuracy you seek is completely negated by the randomness of the target. Then, you might start appreciating speed of putting consistent rounds on target, including Charlies and an occasional Delta. One more quick thought. Being "responsible for your bullets" doesn't mean that center mass hit won't go through a real life threat any less than a hit in the C zone would.
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#31
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I remember taking a few "tactical"-classes out there... For some reason, the instructors didn't look too warmly on competition shooters. Nevertheless, it was informative! Quite good learning, another perspective one could say...
In the advanced-level classes - and, at least in my class, they were slow (and I'm talking from a "C"-class shooter in USPSA). They can be accurate, but at the extreme cost of time. Once you factor in the speed, as in "man-on-man" drills, accuracy SIGNIFICANTLY drops! Anyways, during the COF stages; they heavily penalize "misses," ie., 5-seconds. This makes the COF artificially slow. I think to myself, this isn't going to work in realy life... Oh, well... Hey... Nice meeting you here!!! Thanks for yesterday. It was good shooting with you... BTW, you know that Ethan guy? The UN in our squad that joined in the last minute? The person that was making all of us look bad? Well, he is a SWAT operator, and it would seem that they have their own version of "action shooting," ie., World Police and Fire Games. Quote:
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I track all my matches/classifiers/classes, etc. in Google Sheets: _ Last edited by rodralig; 06-25-2018 at 6:09 PM.. |
#32
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I view the point value change as dumbing down the sport. I think that it slowed the sport down, which in turn will eventually devolve it farther into the shadow of USPSA. New blood that may start in IDPA will soon leave it behind because of these efforts to make it more relevant to the old and fat crowd. That's not healthy for the IDPA's future. I think they could have achieved their justification for the change ("in the real world, every bullet has a lawyer attached") by tripling the Non-Threat penalty and maybe doubling the Miss penalty. Make it seriously expensive to miss entirely. Instead, they go schizophrenic by doubling the time value of points to slow things down, and then get rid of the Failure to Neutralize penalty so that crappy hits don't carry extra penalties. WTF? I thought bad shooting was supposed to hurt? Make up your mind, IDPA. You don't find USPSA challenging? Because I would think only a Master/GM would say that the sport needs to offer greater challenge. I find their version of a shooting sport to be exceptionally challenging...even more so than IDPA since they have a mental aspect that IDPA cannot have (free-form target engagement versus not exposing yourself to un-engaged targets). I find it telling that Experts and Masters in IDPA are often only A or B class shooters in USPSA. Quote:
It is rare that a competent SO cannot learn to position himself in a way that he can objectively tell if the shooter's feet meet the legal cover requirement. Additionally, there are two SOs every time a competitor shoots. If the stage has physical aspects that interfere with this, or if the shooter is enough of a safety concern that main SO needs to ride them more closely, then SO can prep the ASO to assist with cover calls. As for shooting on the move? For ****'s sake...if you can't tell when someone is moving versus not moving, then, yeah...you're incompetent. HQ simply needed to set the record straight by saying that "movement" is achieved when the shooter exhibits any movement of their torso in the proscribed direction at the time the shot is fired. Instead, they go full retard and say nobody needs to move and shoot if they don't want to anymore. Both of these issues could have been addressed with better training. IDPA hasn't modified their SO training process in years. They would have been better off doing that rather than trying to stop mosquito-size problems with a sledgehammer. The basic nature of IDPA makes it nearly impossible to "game" for 99.5% of stages. Almost everyone will shoot a stage exactly the same way because of the primary rule that you cannot expose yourself to un-engaged targets. That makes it more technical, which many USPSA shooters don't like, but has it's benefits and an allure in its own right. But it seems like the owners of the sport are dead set on taking all thinking out of it. The over-choreographing of the stage design in the 2015 rules now combined with foot faultlines and elimination of mandated movement...they're just lowering the IQ of the sport. And that's a shame. IDPA has it's niche, but I believe that all these changes (as well as its complete lack of accountability to the members who fund the sport) are just going to increase the delta in the growths of USPSA and IDPA.
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My friends and family disavow all knowledge of my existence, let alone my opinions. |
#33
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at
or (I cant decide which) Making that statement and then not bothering to tell us how but instead why makes for a rather ineffective discussion. With that in mind, I have to assume that you are saying; 1) You cant be fast and accurate or that 2) Moving too fast thru an IDPA COF will result in penalties for excessive speed?
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Here is a LEO who clearly subscribes to the USPSA approach to a gunfight...just get those rounds downrange...FAST! More LEO's employing USPSA tactics.... Quote:
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No, it is not except maybe in your mind. Quote:
NO, but shooting and hitting at the target WHERE you are aiming at IS being as responsible as you can be, spraying rounds at the target like a venture capitalist puts money in play, hoping something has an effect is NOT the way be responsible for your rounds in public but hey.. its just a range game. You develop your instinct / muscle memory and I will develop mine.
__________________
"Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue." ----Sen. Barry Goldwater Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." ----Benjamin Franklin NRA life member CRPA member Last edited by OCEquestrian; 06-25-2018 at 8:59 PM.. |
#34
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The big issue is that no shooting sport, including IDPA, teaches good tactics. USPSA and IDPA are phenomenal at developing and honing weapon mechanics (draws, sight acquisition, controlled rapid fire, target transitions, reloads, malfunction recoveries, etc.). The fact that IDPA has you hide behind walls when you shoot does not counter the negative traits it teaches you (rushing through an environment, expecting to know number and location of all threats, expecting a threat to stand still, expecting a target to stand perfectly squared off to you). These are fatal expectations that really can only be countered with real defensive training. But, by god, the gun games will make you learn how to handle your actual gun better (and with less thought...which frees you up for more situational awareness).
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My friends and family disavow all knowledge of my existence, let alone my opinions. |
#35
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And USPSA doesnt?
__________________
"Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue." ----Sen. Barry Goldwater Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." ----Benjamin Franklin NRA life member CRPA member |
#36
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USPSA and IDPA are games. Tactically (from the game stand point) sometimes it makes sense to take the "C" hits than take the extra time for an "A" hit. It depends on the type of stage. USPSA uses hit factor scoring which is points per second. On a high hit factor scoring stage the emphasis is more on speed, on a low hit factor scoring stage the emphasis is on points. One has to figure out the balance and attack the stage accordingly.
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"... when a man has shot an elephant his life is full"- John Alfred Jordan "A set of ivory tusks speaks of a life well lived." - Unknown |
#37
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Max Michael shoots IDPA? Not many of the top USPSA champions shoot IDPA. Some will occasionally shoot nationals to pad their resumes for their classes they teach. I started with IDPA but prefer USPSA much more now. Subjective cover calls was the biggest negative to me with IDPA. Fault lines are much better as far as getting accurate penalties for shooters. Way less subjective.
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#38
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Except that some well-known names invoked in this thread also claim that "speed is tactics" and IDPA doesn't like speed.
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#39
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Exactly. I just wish they would make them super thin so you cant 'feel" your way to the cover limit line.
__________________
"Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue." ----Sen. Barry Goldwater Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." ----Benjamin Franklin NRA life member CRPA member Last edited by OCEquestrian; 06-25-2018 at 9:43 PM.. |
#40
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PS: we havent even mentioned what constitutes the gun you would most likely CCW versus that space gun used for USPSA but tha'ts another 8 page thread...
__________________
"Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue." ----Sen. Barry Goldwater Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." ----Benjamin Franklin NRA life member CRPA member Last edited by OCEquestrian; 06-25-2018 at 9:56 PM.. |
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