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  #1  
Old 06-24-2018, 5:48 PM
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Question IDPA 5x5 Classifier - What is it? And why?

After a few months' of absence, I go back to IDPA...

So, I get to the range early and see a few doing the 5x5 Classifier...

Well, I have heard about this "new" classifier, but never dug deep into the details. I see an acquaintance of me, and he invited me over to try it out, even for at least, a "warm up" to the match.

Since it was only $10, I acquiesced.

Starting cold - I basically, ended with 23.62, inclusive of 2-points down. This places me in the EXPERT class for SSP... First things that go into my mind is "what the hell is this classifier?" (It feels too easy to rank up)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIt2vD6TgZE



Even though the last classifier I took was about a year back (the "traditional" 72-rounder with 120.64), I would believe I am still an SS (Sharpshooter). Just by looking at match performance, the EX class is still a TOO FAR a reach. During one of the state regionals held in Bakersfield, I ranked a measly 24/57 SS, and 6/17 SSP SS. Definitely NOT EXpert class!!!

I talked to some of my squad mates, and some have the perception that the 5x5 was introduced by "some members" who can't seem to rank up the classification with the "traditional" classifier. They add that this becomes a problem because you get bucketed in a class higher than your own capabilities. Is this true? Some even add that they would never take the 5x5 (yeah, now they tell me AFTER I have taken it)...

I have tried Google - but can't seem to find any convincing enough argument for its introduction. Not even in IDPA.com... Even the Multibriefs link (http://www.multibriefs.com/briefs/id...Classifier.pdf) wasn't sufficient enough. Could anyone chime in?

Cheers...

_
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Old 06-24-2018, 6:12 PM
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Not sure this is the real reason, but what I heard, was people could shoot this classifier the morning of the match so they were "classified" for the match. I have also heard, your concern. That it is a little too easy and you can classify beyond your abilities.
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Old 06-24-2018, 6:20 PM
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Not sure this is the real reason, but what I heard, was people could shoot this classifier the morning of the match so they were "classified" for the match. I have also heard, your concern. That it is a little too easy and you can classify beyond your abilities.
But it doesn't make sense.

Say, one is a Novice; but an extremely talented Novice. If that individual takes the 5x5, it would be safe to assume that he/she would be bumped up to Marksman.

If one is going for a trophy, etc. or say, a "match promotion" (way cooler than taking a Classifier) - wouldn't it make more sense to compete in the Novice division?

Why would someone want a bump up such he/she will be in the bottom end of the higher class, than, say, maybe in the mid- to top- in his/her current class.

I'm terribly confused...



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Old 06-24-2018, 6:25 PM
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The 5x5 classifier was an old BillbWilson drill that's been aroud for years. Even the 72 round classifier is only a couple of years old.
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Old 06-24-2018, 6:34 PM
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But it doesn't make sense.

Say, one is a Novice; but an extremely talented Novice. If that individual takes the 5x5, it would be safe to assume that he/she would be bumped up to Marksman.

If one is going for a trophy, etc. or say, a "match promotion" (way cooler than taking a Classifier) - wouldn't it make more sense to compete in the Novice division?

Why would someone want a bump up such he/she will be in the bottom end of the higher class, than, say, maybe in the mid- to top- in his/her current class.

I'm terribly confused...



_
This is called sandbagging. Competing below your actual skill level is IMHO cheating...and the sign of a person of very weak character. It is certainly poor sportsmanship at the very least and LOTS of people do it. I got a match bump at a match that just didnt have a lot of good competition in my classification and went from the top levels (but never first) of my old classification to the lower levels of the new one. It motivates me to improve my shooting.
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Old 06-24-2018, 6:43 PM
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This is called sandbagging.
But the presumption is that the 5x5 is on par with the traditional 72-rounder...

Back to my example, if the talented NV may not make MM in the 72-rounder, but, may make MM in the 5x5.



Based on just talking with my squad mates and acquaintances on others squads - they don't seem to look at the 5x5 favorably. Hhhmmmm... Am I missing something here?


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Old 06-24-2018, 6:51 PM
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Did you shoot the IDPA match at Prado today? I was there. I have not shot the 5x5 and dont intend to. I prefer the old school classifier with three stages. Additionally, I got a match bump last fall that will take me some time to develop into the next higher level.
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Old 06-24-2018, 7:03 PM
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Did you shoot the IDPA match at Prado today?
Yup. Shot it today. Albeit, didn't perform too well... *sigh*

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I have not shot the 5x5 and dont intend to. I prefer the old school classifier with three stages.
Now you tell me...

I wasn't intending on shooting it (like you, I prefer the "old school" course of fire) until an acquaintance talked me into it...

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Additionally, I got a match bump last fall that will take me some time to develop into the next higher level.
A match promotion? Which match was it?


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Old 06-24-2018, 8:03 PM
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How'd you do? I didnt have a very good day either.
It wasnt my best day. Several errors cost me a bit. What were you shooting? squad?



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A match promotion? Which match was it?
2018 South Mountain Showdown in Phoenix Az. It was a good match with some very famous shooters competing.
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Old 06-24-2018, 10:43 PM
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When the 5x5 came out, we all thought it would be too easy to class up. So, we shot it as a match stage. Out of 36 shooters, only one moved up, and two (including one master) shot below their rank. Not a huge test, but it did not appear to be as easy as it seemed.

At a big match, there doesn’t seem to be a big change from SS to EX. I shot a tier 4 match last year and my time placed me 10th in both divisions. Winning SS time was faster than the winning EX time. It happens.


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Old 06-25-2018, 6:44 AM
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When the 5x5 came out, we all thought it would be too easy to class up. So, we shot it as a match stage. Out of 36 shooters, only one moved up, and two (including one master) shot below their rank. Not a huge test, but it did not appear to be as easy as it seemed.
Hhhhmmm... Interesting...

I guess with the 5x5 having no strings that demonstrate techniques usually found in most matches, there was an assumption that it would have been easy. WHO, target-to-target transitions, varied distances, shooting on the move, long range, etc.

Personally, at least, I do find it comparatively easier compared to the traditional one Albeit, my last 72-round classifier was May of last year, when I first got into matches... I would think that once one has a respectable draw and reload, it all comes down to recoil management and trigger control. It's a single target.

That said, I find the USPSA-style classifiers rather challenging! With so many courses of fire, you really wouldn't know which one will be used on match day. Moreso that it is not one single score, but an average from the most recent scores. Oh well... Each organization is to its own



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It wasnt my best day. Several errors cost me a bit. What were you shooting? squad?
Same here! Wasn't as accurate as I wanted to be... Was just blasting away! Must be my previous matches were USPSA-style that I could get away with an occasional C. As would remember Vogel saying once during a class, "... to make things simple, a C in USPSA is losing just a 1/3 of a second..."

I was shooting a Glock 34 Gen 3, and was in squad #2.

That said, in spite of all my lackluster performance, IMO, I ranked quite up near the top 10. HIGHER than I ever ranked in the Prado match!?! There was at least a 50-sec gap between 1st overall and mine. I guess there were not many of the usual top shooters participating...


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Old 06-25-2018, 7:32 AM
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... As would remember Vogel saying once during a class, "... to make things simple, a C in USPSA is losing just a 1/3 of a second..."_
Depends on the course of fire but pretty close. To show you the difference in scoring here are my scores for two similar classifiers shooting Limited.

El Presidente - 5A 5C 2D
Nuevo El Presidente ( has a partial and two no shoots on targets) - 10A 1C 1D, 1.15 second slower than the first due to making sure I was out of the hard cover and NS.

First one was 9 points down. Second one was 3 points down. Hit factor for the two courses of fire were pretty close the first one being 0.0533 HF better.

If this was an IDPA course of fire the second string would have been a much better score by several seconds instead of first one barely edging out the second one. Kinda accentuates the difference between the games.

Lesson here, at least for me is to shoot IDPA matches as if there is a NS around "down zero" in order to make the mental adjustment
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Old 06-25-2018, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by rodralig View Post
After a few months' of absence, I go back to IDPA...

So, I get to the range early and see a few doing the 5x5 Classifier...

Well, I have heard about this "new" classifier, but never dug deep into the details. I see an acquaintance of me, and he invited me over to try it out, even for at least, a "warm up" to the match.

Since it was only $10, I acquiesced.

Starting cold - I basically, ended with 23.62, inclusive of 2-points down. This places me in the EXPERT class for SSP... First things that go into my mind is "what the hell is this classifier?" (It feels too easy to rank up)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIt2vD6TgZE



Even though the last classifier I took was about a year back (the "traditional" 72-rounder with 120.64), I would believe I am still an SS (Sharpshooter). Just by looking at match performance, the EX class is still a TOO FAR a reach. During one of the state regionals held in Bakersfield, I ranked a measly 24/57 SS, and 6/17 SSP SS. Definitely NOT EXpert class!!!

I talked to some of my squad mates, and some have the perception that the 5x5 was introduced by "some members" who can't seem to rank up the classification with the "traditional" classifier. They add that this becomes a problem because you get bucketed in a class higher than your own capabilities. Is this true? Some even add that they would never take the 5x5 (yeah, now they tell me AFTER I have taken it)...

I have tried Google - but can't seem to find any convincing enough argument for its introduction. Not even in IDPA.com... Even the Multibriefs link (http://www.multibriefs.com/briefs/id...Classifier.pdf) wasn't sufficient enough. Could anyone chime in?

Cheers...

_
I was one of those squad mates you were talking to. My perception of the 5X5 is that it’s a joke for those competitors that have already been established ( those that have been competing and have a ranking) as the times as they sit are a bit liberal, take off a bit more time and it’ll be more true to skill. With that, it has nothing to do with IDPA competition as it sits. The older classifiers had movement and other facilities that really weeded out the serious competitors from the other weekend competitors (0ld stage 3) and it was more in line from what you actually used on the course of fire.
Standing in front of a target and shooting fast and accurate is just that, speed bullseye shooting, not IDPA shooting.
Now my opinion on the matter is just that, my opinion. I feel the 5x5 has a place for the new (to competition)unclassified shooter that wants to shoot a sanctioned match at the last minute. It’s quick to set up and shoot, great for on a first thing match day ordeal. But as a real determining factor nope, I personally know quite a few people who refuse to shoot it or have thrown a shot because they know they’ll be bumped up a class or two, but have consistently ranked mid pack competing in their class.
I also think it was made the way it was for the guys that want to be expert or master but lack the actual skills to compete at that level, so the dropped the bar. Now on a business level (this is a business after all) you drop the bar, you get more competitors at the higher levels, who cares if those poor saps that were sharpshooters that had a freak good day and qualified master get hosed at every single match because of a static qualifier. But hey, you can go around and say your a master shooter, even though you were in the Z-main and last place while still under the top 20 of the sharpshooters scores.
Is it fair, it’s all in the eye of the beholder. Personally I think they cheated it out when they took out the low cover and then again took out the movement, but that’s my opinion.
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Old 06-25-2018, 10:45 AM
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Now on a business level (this is a business after all) you drop the bar, you get more competitors at the higher levels, who cares if those poor saps that were sharpshooters that had a freak good day and qualified master get hosed at every single match because of a static qualifier. But hey, you can go around and say your a master shooter, even though you were in the Z-main and last place while still under the top 20 of the sharpshooters scores.
This has been the trend in lots of sports, I've seen it in motorcycle racing and down hill mtn biking.
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Old 06-25-2018, 10:55 AM
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This has been the trend in lots of sports, I've seen it in motorcycle racing and down hill mtn biking.
Too true, been there and done that. Got my bump into a class that I had no business being in. Tried to compete and ultimately ended my competition permanently in dh mountain bike.
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Old 06-25-2018, 11:02 AM
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They add that this becomes a problem because you get bucketed in a class higher than your own capabilities. Is this true?
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Originally Posted by OCEquestrian View Post
This is called sandbagging. Competing below your actual skill level is IMHO cheating...and the sign of a person of very weak character. It is certainly poor sportsmanship at the very least and LOTS of people do it.
It's only upsetting to those who see classes as a way to "compete against similarly skilled individuals." In reality, classes are just a way to track your progress.

In competition, it makes sense to be split by divisions since that's based on the equipment. Separating and measuring by class is there so some people can get ribbons, but otherwise it completely misses the point - division is a level playing field and just because some of us suck doesn't mean we get our own playground so we can "win a trophy for coming in towards the bottom of the rankings."

Looking at class standing is like saying "I finished FIRST* in the marathon I ran last week."
(* Out of people who didn't finish in the top 1,000.)
Normally, you'd just say "I finished 1,001 and got a participation ribbon."
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Old 06-25-2018, 11:29 AM
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...
Standing in front of a target and shooting fast and accurate is just that, speed bullseye shooting, not IDPA shooting...
From what I have seen standing in front of the target (behind cover lines) and shooting fast and accurate is actually IDPA shooting. There is not a lot of movement for the most part. Cover rules, and tactical priority prohibit shooting on the move, it is more shoot at one position, run/walk to another position and shoot again. Bunch of static shooting positions tied together in a COF.
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Old 06-25-2018, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by rodralig View Post
Wasn't as accurate as I wanted to be... Was just blasting away! Must be my previous matches were USPSA-style that I could get away with an occasional C. As would remember Vogel saying once during a class, "... to make things simple, a C in USPSA is losing just a 1/3 of a second..."
IDPA penalizes inaccuracy to a much greater degree than USPSA...one of the reasons I like IDPA.

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Originally Posted by rodralig View Post
I was shooting a Glock 34 Gen 3, and was in squad #2.

That said, in spite of all my lackluster performance, IMO, I ranked quite up near the top 10. HIGHER than I ever ranked in the Prado match!?! There was at least a 50-sec gap between 1st overall and mine. I guess there were not many of the usual top shooters participating...
Quite a few of the the upper level usual suspects were absent from this match.
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Old 06-25-2018, 11:48 AM
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From what I have seen standing in front of the target (behind cover lines) and shooting fast and accurate is actually IDPA shooting. There is not a lot of movement for the most part. Cover rules, and tactical priority prohibit shooting on the move, it is more shoot at one position, run/walk to another position and shoot again. Bunch of static shooting positions tied together in a COF.
True to a point, under the new rules you don’t have to be moving anymore even with an open target. So in relation the the BS 5x5, even if you stop n shoot, move, stop n shoot it’s all time. How is shooting the 5x5 without any movement relevant to classification? As it sits in its current form, it just inaccurate and needs to be tweaked.
Look, I get it. It a shooters game. The way IDPA is going, it is getting away from concealed carry ideology and more towards uspsa and ipsc in its current format, except with the contrasting rules it’s all over the place. My theory is that IDPA is trying to pull in more shooters from the other venues to generate revenue. In order to do this, it’s changed the core structure a bit to accommodate some of the “gamer” aspect.
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Old 06-25-2018, 12:05 PM
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True to a point, under the new rules you don’t have to be moving anymore even with an open target. So in relation the the BS 5x5, even if you stop n shoot, move, stop n shoot it’s all time. How is shooting the 5x5 without any movement relevant to classification? As it sits in its current form, it just inaccurate and needs to be tweaked.
Look, I get it. It a shooters game. The way IDPA is going, it is getting away from concealed carry ideology and more towards uspsa and ipsc in its current format, except with the contrasting rules it’s all over the place. My theory is that IDPA is trying to pull in more shooters from the other venues to generate revenue. In order to do this, it’s changed the core structure a bit to accommodate some of the “gamer” aspect.
Well, seeing that the top shooters are also shooting the same course of fire it could be a fair test of shooting ability if the ratios are calculated correctly.

Even in USPSA majority of classifiers are stand and shoot though match scores do seem to follow closely.
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Old 06-25-2018, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by rodralig View Post
This places me in the EXPERT class for SSP... First things that go into my mind is "what the hell is this classifier?" (It feels too easy to rank up)

Even though the last classifier I took was about a year back (the "traditional" 72-rounder with 120.64), I would believe I am still an SS (Sharpshooter). Just by looking at match performance, the EX class is still a TOO FAR a reach. During one of the state regionals held in Bakersfield, I ranked a measly 24/57 SS, and 6/17 SSP SS. Definitely NOT EXpert class!!!

I talked to some of my squad mates, and some have the perception that the 5x5 was introduced by "some members" who can't seem to rank up the classification with the "traditional" classifier. They add that this becomes a problem because you get bucketed in a class higher than your own capabilities. Is this true? Some even add that they would never take the 5x5 (yeah, now they tell me AFTER I have taken it)...

I have tried Google - but can't seem to find any convincing enough argument for its introduction. Not even in IDPA.com...Could anyone chime in?
The explanation given when the 5x5 was introduced was that statistics show that the majority of people shooting it scored comparable to the traditional 3-stage classifier. So, HQ introduced it to allow easier integration as a stage within a larger match or for emergency classifications.

As for your Sharpshooter/Expert class, note that Sharpshooter is one of the biggest sandbagger classes in the sport. The traditional classifier does make it tough to reach Expert, and many Sharpshooters go out of their way to stay in that Class since it improves their chances at winning. I've seen people switch from divisions prior to a sanctioned match simply to avoid a match bump should they win or place well in their class.


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Originally Posted by DSMeyer View Post
The way IDPA is going, it is getting away from concealed carry ideology and more towards uspsa and ipsc in its current format, except with the contrasting rules it’s all over the place. My theory is that IDPA is trying to pull in more shooters from the other venues to generate revenue. In order to do this, it’s changed the core structure a bit to accommodate some of the “gamer” aspect.
I find the irony of IDPA to be entertaining. They are trying to reinforce rules that allow old fat guys to remain competitive (point-per-second scoring, prone shooting positions only at last position), introduce new rules to address the apparent incompetence of the SOs (fault lines, no mandating shooting on the move), and increasingly wants to mimic USPSA while insisting they are the antithesis of USPSA (fault lines, score arbitration fees, PCC). Have to say that they definitely don't seem to be heading more into gamer territory, though.
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Old 06-25-2018, 12:50 PM
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As for your Sharpshooter/Expert class, note that Sharpshooter is one of the biggest sandbagger classes in the sport. The traditional classifier does make it tough to reach Expert, and many Sharpshooters go out of their way to stay in that Class since it improves their chances at winning. I've seen people switch from divisions prior to a sanctioned match simply to avoid a match bump should they win or place well in their class.
I totally agree with this.... and the posted results of any IDPA match prove it out.

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Originally Posted by Gryff View Post
I find the irony of IDPA to be entertaining. They are trying to reinforce rules that allow old fat guys to remain competitive (point-per-second scoring, prone shooting positions only at last position),
I fail to see how emphasizing accuracy is a bad thing. USPSA would a much greater challenge if it did as well. Outside of the gaming world of IDPA / USPSA / IPSC, we are responsible for EVERY ROUND we fire in self defense. Why does building muscle memory and subconscious acceptance of inaccuracy seem like a good idea to you? Particularly for those who actually carry weapons on them in public?

[QUOTE=Gryff;21804802]
introduce new rules to address the apparent incompetence of the SOs (fault lines, no mandating shooting on the move),[/QUOTE}

You say incompetence, I say that is standardizing the rule and making it easier to watch for while your focus is correctly most all the time centered on what the shooter is doing with the gun.

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Have to say that they definitely don't seem to be heading more into gamer territory, though.
I hope you are right... as that would push me out of it.
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Old 06-25-2018, 1:04 PM
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...I fail to see how emphasizing accuracy is a bad thing. USPSA would a much greater challenge if it did as well. ...
As people get up in classifications they get faster and accurate in USPSA. There are two paths when starting out. Fast and inaccurate and the other is accurate but slow. Eventually it evens itself out as fast guys work on accuracy and slow guys work on speed. Otherwise, people just can't advance beyond a certain point. In classifiers you can't make up misses with speed, just not enough points out there for that to work.

The top shooters are very accurate in addition to being very fast. Just look at National and Regional match scores.
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Old 06-25-2018, 1:21 PM
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Eventually it evens itself out as fast guys work on accuracy and slow guys work on speed. Otherwise, people just can't advance beyond a certain point. In classifiers you can't make up misses with speed, just not enough points out there for that to work.
Insightful!

I guess I am one of those that definitely needs to build speed.



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Originally Posted by OCEquestrian View Post
It motivates me to improve my shooting.
Well, I guess the damage is done. I am now officially an EXPERT shooter in the SSP division... And would now need to double my efforts to rise to the occasion.

This is JUST TOO EARLY for comfort. I just got started in firearms in mid-2016, started in matches mid-2017, and now an EX in IDPA!?! (and I only shoot matches at most once a month...)



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Lesson here, at least for me is to shoot IDPA matches as if there is a NS around "down zero" in order to make the mental adjustment
That makes sense... The next time I shoot IDPA, I will make try and make that mental adjustment. "Aim small, miss small."

As always, thank you!!!



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It's only upsetting to those who see classes as a way to "compete against similarly skilled individuals." In reality, classes are just a way to track your progress.
Hhhhmmmm.... Even a year later I am still Unclassified in USPSA. There is really no driver for me. I already know I am a mid-"C." The classifiers just validate that... But then again, I don't chase classifier matches just for the reason of getting classified.



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Originally Posted by OCEquestrian View Post
I totally agree with this.... and the posted results of any IDPA match prove it out.
Hhhhmmm... Lots of SS up in the top rankings, at least, in the local matches I have had the chance in trying.

Yup! My name starts with an "A."


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Old 06-25-2018, 1:39 PM
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My understanding is that the 5x5 came around really because the long course was just taking clubs to long. The 5x5 also allows clubs that do not have California like weather to set it up at an indoor range.

I do agree that it is easier and one will level up quicker as long as they make their hits.
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Old 06-25-2018, 3:09 PM
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But it doesn't make sense.

Say, one is a Novice; but an extremely talented Novice. If that individual takes the 5x5, it would be safe to assume that he/she would be bumped up to Marksman.

If one is going for a trophy, etc. or say, a "match promotion" (way cooler than taking a Classifier) - wouldn't it make more sense to compete in the Novice division?

Why would someone want a bump up such he/she will be in the bottom end of the higher class, than, say, maybe in the mid- to top- in his/her current class.

I'm terribly confused...


_
Your looking at it wrong. The classification system is a joke. It's only purpose is to make shooters feel good and not quit the game because they get beat so badly. Plus it lets a shooter go home and tell their better half that they came in first in class, which may very well be 30th in their division. Given all the sandbaggers that exist your not really shooting against shooters of your own ability anyway. Once you shoot for awhile and see all the discrepancies in scoring from squad to squad, you'll realize that where you finished on paper at the end of the Match really isn't where you finished. It's about where you finished plus or minus 5 places.

You should be comparing yourself to the Match winner or at least to your Division winner. Disregard the artificial classification. Finishing 30th and calling it a first, isn't anything to be proud of.
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Excellent! I am thinking about it as well and I only have 4 points and an unfortunate "match bump" up to expert classification where I am far less "competitive" with my peers there.
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Old 06-25-2018, 4:09 PM
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...Hhhhmmmm.... Even a year later I am still Unclassified in USPSA. There is really no driver for me. I already know I am a mid-"C." The classifiers just validate that... But then again, I don't chase classifier matches just for the reason of getting classified...
All it takes is 4 classifier scores to have an initial classification (best 4 of 6). At Prado the NRG the 2. and 4. weekend matches have classifier stages assuming you have a USPSA number.

However, I would pick a game and stick with it for a while. I am biased so I'd recommend USPSA. More rounds per match, more challenging courses of fire and better shooters in the USPSA matches as a rule. Of course, it might "get you killed in the streets", but the risk is worth it.
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Old 06-25-2018, 4:53 PM
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Hhhhmmmm.... Even a year later I am still Unclassified in USPSA. There is really no driver for me. I already know I am a mid-"C." The classifiers just validate that... But then again, I don't chase classifier matches just for the reason of getting classified.
It's not supposed to be a "driver." It's supposed to tell you when you've reached the next level of your shooting.

Assuming you're indeed a mid-C, classifiers will tell you when you've improved enough to be a mid-B. You can chase the classification, you can push it a bit, but overall you'll have to be at a certain level before you start shooting that level classifiers. Remember, USPSA has a lot of different classifiers so it's much more difficult to practice just for grandbagging.

That's the idea of "tracking progress."
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Old 06-25-2018, 4:55 PM
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The classification system is a joke. It's only purpose is to make shooters feel good and not quit the game because they get beat so badly.
The true purpose is to know where you're at and to track your progress towards becoming a good shooter.

It's only a joke if people use it to try to win (or be competitive) within a class. Unless it's the GM class. Then it's okay to try to win the class.
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Old 06-25-2018, 5:10 PM
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I fail to see how emphasizing accuracy is a bad thing. USPSA would a much greater challenge if it did as well. Outside of the gaming world of IDPA / USPSA / IPSC, we are responsible for EVERY ROUND we fire in self defense. Why does building muscle memory and subconscious acceptance of inaccuracy seem like a good idea to you? Particularly for those who actually carry weapons on them in public?
Every USPSA shooter can "shoot to get hits," a.k.a., shoot very slowly and get all Alphas. Every upper class USPSA shooter can call the shots and fire only when acceptable sight picture is available, effectively using eyes and sight picture to dictate the speed of shooting.

IDPA doesn't so much "emphasize accuracy" as it "penalizes speed." It's almost as if it's designed for people who don't want to get better in action shooting, so they can keep on doing the "bench rest style shooting" and avoid having to address the speed aspect of both action shooting and self defense.

If IDPA went further into accuracy extreme, say more penalties for down points and smaller scoring zones, you'd end up with bullseye shooting matches where the most accurate person wins regardless of time. Nothing wrong with that per se, just not what people consider "action shooting." Also wouldn't be relevant for self defense.

Finally, getting an Alpha in self defense scenario does not mean successful self defense - there are too many "non-vital holes" in Alpha zone where the bullet can go through and do limited damage. If you wanted to be realistic, each target should have vitals randomly placed on the target and not visible from distance. Then you get extra time every time you don't hit the area that you don't even know where it is in the first place. Quite random.

That would be "much more realistic," yet it would completely kill the concept of "shooting for accuracy" since you'd have to admit that accuracy you seek is completely negated by the randomness of the target. Then, you might start appreciating speed of putting consistent rounds on target, including Charlies and an occasional Delta.

One more quick thought. Being "responsible for your bullets" doesn't mean that center mass hit won't go through a real life threat any less than a hit in the C zone would.
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Old 06-25-2018, 5:58 PM
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I remember taking a few "tactical"-classes out there... For some reason, the instructors didn't look too warmly on competition shooters. Nevertheless, it was informative! Quite good learning, another perspective one could say...

In the advanced-level classes - and, at least in my class, they were slow (and I'm talking from a "C"-class shooter in USPSA). They can be accurate, but at the extreme cost of time. Once you factor in the speed, as in "man-on-man" drills, accuracy SIGNIFICANTLY drops!

Anyways, during the COF stages; they heavily penalize "misses," ie., 5-seconds. This makes the COF artificially slow. I think to myself, this isn't going to work in realy life... Oh, well...



Quote:
Originally Posted by DSMeyer View Post
I was one of those squad mates you were talking to.
Hey... Nice meeting you here!!! Thanks for yesterday. It was good shooting with you...

BTW, you know that Ethan guy? The UN in our squad that joined in the last minute? The person that was making all of us look bad?

Well, he is a SWAT operator, and it would seem that they have their own version of "action shooting," ie., World Police and Fire Games.



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Originally Posted by RoundEye View Post
I do agree that it is easier and one will level up quicker as long as they make their hits.
As for my two acquaintances that took the 5x5 yesterday - one remained in SS; while the other "dropped" down to MM.



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Originally Posted by IVC View Post
Assuming you're indeed a mid-C, classifiers will tell you when you've improved enough to be a mid-B. You can chase the classification, you can push it a bit, but overall you'll have to be at a certain level before you start shooting that level classifiers. Remember, USPSA has a lot of different classifiers so it's much more difficult to practice just for grandbagging.

That's the idea of "tracking progress."
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Originally Posted by tanks View Post
All it takes is 4 classifier scores to have an initial classification (best 4 of 6). At Prado the NRG the 2. and 4. weekend matches have classifier stages assuming you have a USPSA number.
I have a USPSA number. Right now, all I need is one more classifier stage. I am trending with a mid-"C" (hence, my statement on my skill level).

I track all my matches/classifiers/classes, etc. in Google Sheets:



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Old 06-25-2018, 8:27 PM
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Originally Posted by OCEquestrian View Post
I fail to see how emphasizing accuracy is a bad thing...Outside of the gaming world of IDPA / USPSA / IPSC, we are responsible for EVERY ROUND we fire in self defense. Why does building muscle memory and subconscious acceptance of inaccuracy seem like a good idea to you? Particularly for those who actually carry weapons on them in public?
Simply put...because it IS a game that is fundamentally based on a combination of speed and accuracy. It isn't valid training anymore than USPSA is, so I don't buy into the "disconnect from the real world is bad." If that mattered, then we should have to shoot every stage blind (which is illegal per the rulebook).

I view the point value change as dumbing down the sport. I think that it slowed the sport down, which in turn will eventually devolve it farther into the shadow of USPSA. New blood that may start in IDPA will soon leave it behind because of these efforts to make it more relevant to the old and fat crowd. That's not healthy for the IDPA's future.

I think they could have achieved their justification for the change ("in the real world, every bullet has a lawyer attached") by tripling the Non-Threat penalty and maybe doubling the Miss penalty. Make it seriously expensive to miss entirely.

Instead, they go schizophrenic by doubling the time value of points to slow things down, and then get rid of the Failure to Neutralize penalty so that crappy hits don't carry extra penalties. WTF? I thought bad shooting was supposed to hurt? Make up your mind, IDPA.

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Originally Posted by OCEquestrian View Post
USPSA would a much greater challenge if it did as well
You don't find USPSA challenging? Because I would think only a Master/GM would say that the sport needs to offer greater challenge.

I find their version of a shooting sport to be exceptionally challenging...even more so than IDPA since they have a mental aspect that IDPA cannot have (free-form target engagement versus not exposing yourself to un-engaged targets). I find it telling that Experts and Masters in IDPA are often only A or B class shooters in USPSA.

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Originally Posted by OCEquestrian View Post
You say incompetence, I say that is standardizing the rule and making it easier to watch for while your focus is correctly most all the time centered on what the shooter is doing with the gun.
These rule changes are due to one of two things. Either incompetence by SOs, or a failure by IDPA to properly train their Safety Officers.

It is rare that a competent SO cannot learn to position himself in a way that he can objectively tell if the shooter's feet meet the legal cover requirement. Additionally, there are two SOs every time a competitor shoots. If the stage has physical aspects that interfere with this, or if the shooter is enough of a safety concern that main SO needs to ride them more closely, then SO can prep the ASO to assist with cover calls.

As for shooting on the move? For ****'s sake...if you can't tell when someone is moving versus not moving, then, yeah...you're incompetent. HQ simply needed to set the record straight by saying that "movement" is achieved when the shooter exhibits any movement of their torso in the proscribed direction at the time the shot is fired. Instead, they go full retard and say nobody needs to move and shoot if they don't want to anymore.

Both of these issues could have been addressed with better training. IDPA hasn't modified their SO training process in years. They would have been better off doing that rather than trying to stop mosquito-size problems with a sledgehammer.

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Originally Posted by OCEquestrian View Post
I hope you are right... as that would push me out of it.
The basic nature of IDPA makes it nearly impossible to "game" for 99.5% of stages. Almost everyone will shoot a stage exactly the same way because of the primary rule that you cannot expose yourself to un-engaged targets. That makes it more technical, which many USPSA shooters don't like, but has it's benefits and an allure in its own right.

But it seems like the owners of the sport are dead set on taking all thinking out of it. The over-choreographing of the stage design in the 2015 rules now combined with foot faultlines and elimination of mandated movement...they're just lowering the IQ of the sport. And that's a shame. IDPA has it's niche, but I believe that all these changes (as well as its complete lack of accountability to the members who fund the sport) are just going to increase the delta in the growths of USPSA and IDPA.
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Old 06-25-2018, 8:43 PM
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IDPA doesn't so much "emphasize accuracy" as it "penalizes speed."
or (I cant decide which) Making that statement and then not bothering to tell us how but instead why makes for a rather ineffective discussion. With that in mind, I have to assume that you are saying; 1) You cant be fast and accurate or that 2) Moving too fast thru an IDPA COF will result in penalties for excessive speed?

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It's almost as if it's designed for people who don't want to get better in action shooting
Funny, When I was chatting with Rob Leatham and Max Michel about IDPA versus USPSA competition both felt that IDPA / USPSA were very challenging in their own ways but that's them not you.


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so they can keep on doing the "bench rest style shooting" and avoid having to address the speed aspect of both action shooting and self defense.
IDPA particpants are just "bench rest style shooting"? Your ad hominem "style" attack on IDPA and its participants says it all about your bias and ability to have a fair and intelligent discussion.

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Originally Posted by IVC View Post
If IDPA went further into accuracy extreme, say more penalties for down points and smaller scoring zones, you'd end up with bullseye shooting matches where the most accurate person wins regardless of time.
IDPA already has smaller zero point down zones and more down point penalties so what you are saying is that you prefer the high speed spray and pray of USPSA where the fastest time wins... YUP, we get that about you. I am surprised you dont argue that the scoring zones should be done away with all together.

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Nothing wrong with that per se, just not what people consider "action shooting." Also wouldn't be relevant for self defense.
So flying thru a shooting scenario ignoring concepts like use of cover, concealment, exposure to hostile threats, target priority, collateral damage / shoot thru issues.. basically having to THINK thru the COF as well as master speed and accuracy has no relevance for self defense in a real gunfight?

Here is a LEO who clearly subscribes to the USPSA approach to a gunfight...just get those rounds downrange...FAST!


More LEO's employing USPSA tactics....





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Originally Posted by IVC View Post
Finally, getting an Alpha in self defense scenario does not mean successful self defense - there are too many "non-vital holes" in Alpha zone where the bullet can go through and do limited damage.
The only time an IDPA target might take one hit is if a head shot only is required. I every tactical class I have been in has taught that you deliver at least TWO hits center mass and prep the third shot as you assess the effect of the first two. Prep the fourth shot as you assess the prior three and so on. You engage until the threat is negated....how ever many rounds that requires. Last time I checked, the two critical factors of "stopping power" in a gun fight were: shot placement and penetration.

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If you wanted to be realistic, each target should have vitals randomly placed on the target and not visible from distance. Then you get extra time every time you don't hit the area that you don't even know where it is in the first place. Quite random.
That is the most ludicrous statement you have made in this ludicrous post. ADMIT that you just pulled that one out of your butt....or please provide references of ANY credible tactical school, LEO agency or Military unit that does not teach achieving multiple center mass hits and head shots most effective goal of any combat engagement.

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That would be "much more realistic,"
No, it is not except maybe in your mind.

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Originally Posted by IVC View Post
Then, you might start appreciating speed of putting consistent rounds on target, including Charlies and an occasional Delta.
So your argument is that "C" and "D" accuracy is desirable something to strive for over "A" accuracy? REALLY? You should get off the competition range and talk to some people who have been in real gunfights....



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Originally Posted by IVC View Post
One more quick thought. Being "responsible for your bullets" doesn't mean that center mass hit won't go through a real life threat any less than a hit in the C zone would.
NO, but shooting and hitting at the target WHERE you are aiming at IS being as responsible as you can be, spraying rounds at the target like a venture capitalist puts money in play, hoping something has an effect is NOT the way be responsible for your rounds in public but hey.. its just a range game. You develop your instinct / muscle memory and I will develop mine.
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Old 06-25-2018, 8:43 PM
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I remember taking a few "tactical"-classes out there...For some reason, the instructors didn't look too warmly on competition shooters.
That is the common attitude among instructors who don't compete. Those who do compete will tell you that competition is very beneficial because so few civilians have the opportunity to drive a gun hard, and have their performance measured, while under stress. While it isn't force-on-force, or having someone actually shoot at you, having someone run a timer while you perform within the constraints of rules while you are being watched by a crowd does provide a level of stress that you will never receive standing at a firing line and shooting on command.

The big issue is that no shooting sport, including IDPA, teaches good tactics. USPSA and IDPA are phenomenal at developing and honing weapon mechanics (draws, sight acquisition, controlled rapid fire, target transitions, reloads, malfunction recoveries, etc.). The fact that IDPA has you hide behind walls when you shoot does not counter the negative traits it teaches you (rushing through an environment, expecting to know number and location of all threats, expecting a threat to stand still, expecting a target to stand perfectly squared off to you). These are fatal expectations that really can only be countered with real defensive training. But, by god, the gun games will make you learn how to handle your actual gun better (and with less thought...which frees you up for more situational awareness).
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Old 06-25-2018, 9:01 PM
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The fact that IDPA has you hide behind walls when you shoot does not counter the negative traits it teaches you (rushing through an environment...)"
And USPSA doesnt?
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Old 06-25-2018, 9:12 PM
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...IDPA already has smaller zero point down zones and more down point penalties so what you are saying is that you prefer the high speed spray and pray of USPSA where the fastest time wins... ...
Now, who is making ad hominem attacks? USPSA is not spray and pray. Just look at the winners of local matches and let alone Regional and National matches. You will see people shooting the match pretty clean.

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Originally Posted by OCEquestrian View Post
...So your argument is that "C" and "D" accuracy is desirable something to strive for over "A" accuracy? REALLY? You should get off the competition range and talk to some people who have been in real gunfights....
...
USPSA and IDPA are games. Tactically (from the game stand point) sometimes it makes sense to take the "C" hits than take the extra time for an "A" hit. It depends on the type of stage. USPSA uses hit factor scoring which is points per second. On a high hit factor scoring stage the emphasis is more on speed, on a low hit factor scoring stage the emphasis is on points. One has to figure out the balance and attack the stage accordingly.
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Old 06-25-2018, 9:12 PM
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Max Michael shoots IDPA? Not many of the top USPSA champions shoot IDPA. Some will occasionally shoot nationals to pad their resumes for their classes they teach. I started with IDPA but prefer USPSA much more now. Subjective cover calls was the biggest negative to me with IDPA. Fault lines are much better as far as getting accurate penalties for shooters. Way less subjective.
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Old 06-25-2018, 9:34 PM
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The big issue is that no shooting sport, including IDPA, teaches good tactics.
Exactly.

Except that some well-known names invoked in this thread also claim that "speed is tactics" and IDPA doesn't like speed.
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Old 06-25-2018, 9:39 PM
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Now, who is making ad hominem attacks? USPSA is not spray and pray. Just look at the winners of local matches and let alone Regional and National matches. You will see people shooting the match pretty clean.
Those winners are the exceptional competitors, not the rule at most all local USPSA matches.

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Originally Posted by SG29736 View Post
Fault lines are much better as far as getting accurate penalties for shooters. Way less subjective.
Exactly. I just wish they would make them super thin so you cant 'feel" your way to the cover limit line.
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Last edited by OCEquestrian; 06-25-2018 at 9:43 PM..
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Old 06-25-2018, 9:47 PM
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Originally Posted by IVC View Post
Exactly.

Except that some well-known names invoked in this thread also claim that "speed is tactics" and IDPA doesn't like speed.
Not an accurate statement. Speed is a relative value. Speed is encouraged in IDPA as long as you can "multitask"... be accurate and comply with the restrictions. Given those hurdles, will you be as fast an an environment where those hurdles dont exist? Of course not. So if speed is the only thing you value, USPSA is for you!

PS: we havent even mentioned what constitutes the gun you would most likely CCW versus that space gun used for USPSA but tha'ts another 8 page thread...
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Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." ----Benjamin Franklin

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Last edited by OCEquestrian; 06-25-2018 at 9:56 PM..
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