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Competition, Action Shooting And Training. Competition, Three gun, IPSC, IDPA , and Training discussion here.

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  #1  
Old 03-24-2009, 6:50 PM
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264charlie 264charlie is offline
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Default What should I be "shooting" for a the range.

I am currenly shooting I stock Glock 22 (.40) with range reload ammo at a rate of 400 rounds a week.

My goal is to start competing in 3-Gun when my M2 arrives. What distance should I practice at? What size groups should I expect to achieve with the stock Glock 22 (offhand)?

Note, I am currently working on a Glock 35 for comp handgun.
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  #2  
Old 03-24-2009, 11:34 PM
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personally i didnt enjoy shootimg my glock 22- didnt seem balanced. i went for a G21 and it shoots smoother.
competition is a good way to sharper your skills, but nothing beats good ol practice. your groups will tell you when it's time to compete- i have a long way to go.
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Old 03-24-2009, 11:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by usdmgtr View Post
I am currenly shooting I stock Glock 22 (.40) with range reload ammo at a rate of 400 rounds a week.

My goal is to start competing in 3-Gun when my M2 arrives. What distance should I practice at? What size groups should I expect to achieve with the stock Glock 22 (offhand)?

Note, I am currently working on a Glock 35 for comp handgun.
When I was into IPSC, I would practice at 15yds at the range. I find practicing shooting fast (as in as quickly as I can see th front sight drop back down) helps. My group was usually pretty big at 8" (although I never measured and it's been a while, but it was somewhat in the A zone).

The most useful practice for me was actually various dry firing practice at home. I remember if I don't do a lot of that, my score goes way down at the match. The range practice didn't seem to have too much importance as far as my scoring went.
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Old 03-24-2009, 11:52 PM
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At 15 yards you should be at or under 3". For competition practice, if your range setup allows it, place targets at 2 or different distances, say 5, 10, 15 yards, and practice shooting them in different patterns and orders.

Left to right, right to left, back to front, front to back, left right middle, right left middle with single shots twice through, then try the same setup with double taps to each target.

With a glock, make sure you are taking full advantage of its excellent reset, once you can train it into muscle memory, your speed and accuracy will improve greatly.

Check out some of the Dave Sevigny or Rob Letham's videos for grip suggestions if you are new to semi-autos.
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Old 03-25-2009, 1:58 AM
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Unless you are going to shoot USPSA most matches or at least the ones closest to you are going to be 2 on paper or 1 "A" zone hit. The whole head is an "A" zone. If you have steel or reduced area on the target you will have to slow down some and take aim but nothing that's hard.

Work on your zero for your rifle and loading your shotgun.
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Old 03-25-2009, 7:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by randy View Post
Unless you are going to shoot USPSA most matches or at least the ones closest to you are going to be 2 on paper or 1 "A" zone hit. The whole head is an "A" zone. ,,,.
Has USPSA rules changed? When I was still shooting it 3 years ago, only the a small rectangle in the head is A zone. IDPA was the whole head being -0.
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Old 03-25-2009, 7:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by j1133s View Post
Has USPSA rules changed? When I was still shooting it 3 years ago, only the a small rectangle in the head is A zone. IDPA was the whole head being -0.
I concur.....did a USPSA match just a month ago, and center of the head is a A zone, outside of head is a B.
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Old 03-25-2009, 8:11 AM
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Randy's comment about the head being a "whole A zone" is incorrect. On the Silhouette IPSC targets, the head is a B-zone with a smaller rectangular A-zone enclosed. On the "Metric" IPSC targets?? (Triangles) there is essentially "no head" and just one larger A-zone.

Maybe he was referring to IDPA targers?

As for what ranges you want to practice out to... It depends on what you want to focus on but I'll say "accuracy is king". Build your accuracy up. Know what you can consistently do at 10, 15, 20, 25, 30-50 yards. You should NOT be daunted by the distance involved. The process for shooting ALL these distances should be the same. "Front sight, <press>"

The idea is for you to establish what you can do at a certain distance. IPSC shooting then adds the difficulty of speed(motion) to the equation. When moving, running, shifting weight, your groups will now "open" up. I'll put it this way, if your groups at 10 yards are 8 inches shot to shot.. Thats going to start to expand A LOT if you're moving and taking that same shot at 10 yards. If the best you can do is 8 inches shot to shot, then it's asinine to realistically expect to shoot the same or better while in motion. Now if you're statically shooting 1 inch groups at 10 yards, then when moving, your chances of staying within the A-zone are going to improve. Not every shot you take needs to be a "perfect A", but for now this will be a good place to start without getting into how to maximize your score. Does this make sense?

If you're shooting USPSA, I find folded sheets (or cut in 1/2) 8x11 sheets of paper work extremely well for mimicing the A zone on targets. Move this out to all the distances and see how well you do.

Last edited by Voo; 03-25-2009 at 8:21 AM..
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Old 03-25-2009, 8:48 AM
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BTW, a nice book is Practical Shooting by Enos. I have a copy for sale (in excellent condition) for $10 (half price) and it's in the SF bay area.

Edit to add: This book will save you its cost in ammo within your 1st range practice. I was a B shooter shooting mid B scores, then I read this book (and increased dry fire practice) and was shooting high B and A scores. One thing really useful from it was target classification where you label a target as slow to fast, really good for production shooters. I happened to be cleaning my garage and found this book, it brought back some good memories. Buy it and you'll likely shoot way better.

Last edited by j1133s; 03-25-2009 at 9:01 AM..
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  #10  
Old 03-25-2009, 11:12 AM
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Whats interesting no one made mention of a shot timer.
My small opinion about these are that they will give you excellent feedback in what you are doing. They induce an element of stress that is darn near impossible to find through other means. Additionally, they never lie, and will give you an excellent means of gauging yourself.
Another benefit, is you are getting used to the start of the buzzer.
I use one with my GAs Blow Backs on my wrist, and it near records every shot. I have that very small unit.
Heres a link to an excellent resource for you. Heck, its an excellent resource for anyone looking for Shooting Courses.
BIG BOOK OF SHOOTING COURSES

Hope that helps you.
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  #11  
Old 03-25-2009, 1:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swerv512 View Post
your groups will tell you when it's time to compete- i have a long way to go.


I am not a great range/precision shooter, not far from 8" at 15 yards. But my last IDPA I got 9th over all out of 87 guys. Last USPSA I got 9th overall out of 39 (including open gun shooters) shooting an HK USP 40. So I wouldn't correlate your 8" groups to a bad USPSA/IDPA score.

Don't think "I'm not good enough yet to compete".

Bottom line... Stop worrying about practicing, get out there and compete!

Even if your an amazing precision shooter your scores will still suck. Running, shooting and thinking all at the same time is harder then in looks and actually competing is the best way to get better at all of it.
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Last edited by Lancear15; 03-25-2009 at 2:08 PM..
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  #12  
Old 03-26-2009, 12:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by j1133s View Post
Has USPSA rules changed? When I was still shooting it 3 years ago, only the a small rectangle in the head is A zone. IDPA was the whole head being -0.
The OP was asking about 3 Gun matches not pistol matches. The closest match to him is X3 Multigun at Piru. They score the same as SMM3G. One "A" zone or two shots anywhere the whole head is an A. The California 3 gun series uses the same scoring.

VOO I shot a 3 gun match at Pala this month and they used the same scoring. I know it was one of the rounds of the CA 3 Gun series but I think I heard they have been scoring there matches that way. I do believe they change their scoring to match the next big match in the area just for practice.

USPSA pistol matches the scoring hasn't changed.
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Last edited by randy; 03-26-2009 at 12:17 AM..
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  #13  
Old 03-26-2009, 5:51 AM
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Shot timers are excellent. We were using one yesterday at our shooting practice. We had steel targets at about 5 yards and were engaging them as fast as we could. With two IPSC size targets side by side. The new guys were all about .95 seconds and up from there to go from low ready, and shoot each target once. I was running about .64. Its a good drill to work on reaction time and point shooting. Getting 2 A zone hits is really fun when you didn't even see your sights.

We also shot at 4 IPSC style targets, 2 side by side, then another 2 side by side about 5 yards apart. I was able to double tap all 4 in about 2.3 to 2.5 seconds. I had multiple .16 and .18 splits so I was pretty happy.

I rounded out the practice with hitting head shots at 20 yards. No timer, just working on accuracy. Shot timers are really nice because you can then go through your run and see all your reaction times, splits, and transition times.

I also dry fire the heck my gun at home. I have a couple IPSC targets down the hallway so I can engage them when watching tv. I downloaded a shottimer for the computer, it doesn't actually time shots, but it goes through the "shooter ready, standy by, beep" you can change the beeps so it will give multiple beeps. I like to set it where after the first beep, I draw from holster, dry fire into the IPSC target, reload, then finish aiming at the IPSC target. I try and get all this done before the second beep.

Standing in one position shooting for bullseye groups with no time limit, is not how you practice for 3 gun, USPSA or real life. You need to have the stress from the clock and you need to move around. I like to walk towards, away and side to side the targets and keep the shots in the A zone. I've taught people how to shoot and when they say its too easy to hit the A zone at 7 yards. I say, ok now do it while walking. That alone makes it so much harder and thats not even with any stress.

Have fun with and be creative. One of the best ways to practice is to go to lots of matches. Go to a 3 gun and a USPSA match every month and just be observant.
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Old 03-26-2009, 12:09 PM
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Default Gas Blow Backs for Training

Indeed all great information in here to help shooters.

There are so many aspects one must develop in handgun shooting to be as competitive as they can be.
Here in my estimation is the very best and cheapest method of developing your own abilities.
Gas Blow Back Airsoft pistols... Yes, or as I will refer to them as GBBs.
Many of you know of them. They are generally one to one scale real firearm replicas.
They can be found in these models with somewhat ease..
1. 1911 Single Actions in single stack. Colt type, SW 945 series, Wilson, and more
2. Wide Body single actions in the SV and other type.
3. Glocks. Now understand these are getting harder to find in the US. Glock is after anyone selling these series due to copyright.
4. Berettas.
5. HK USP series.
6. CZ series.
7. Sigarms.
8. Revolvers. From the SW Custom shop reproductions to Ruger and many Colts. (These are not gas block back, but are gas powered)
9. Walthers, Ruger MK IIs, FN 5.7, and a few others.
10. You don’t see much of the Smith & Wesson series in the 5900 series and the larger cals. For some reason they just haven’t copied many of the TSWs. The M&Ps are represented, but seem to be rather inexpensive and I am unsure of the quality. The Springfield XD series is another not represented. This may or may not change. (Please don’t ask me if your unique model is represented, I will provide the links for you to research yourself)

Where to buy them.
Evike. Evike Gas Blow Back Section They have a large selection, and some of the best prices.
Airsplat. Airsplat Gas Pistols Another, with good prices and also located in the US.
Now, these are the US dealers of these products. I make no representation on their quality of service, just as a source.
I encourage you to always go to a local shop and possibly spend a little more. The advantage is you have a local guy to do business with, and if you have issues with them, you can deal with a real live person. This pays off ALL the time to those who do business with me. I insure all that I can that the client will have the very best time and experience with what I sale.
Now, the other source is Hong Kong. There are many, many suppliers in Hong Kong. Too many to list. I like, and have done business with for at least 10 years is WGC.
WGC
They have excellent service and fast shipping. Their prices are great, the best usually, but the shipping will sometimes be high. If you want trademarks, make sure you ask for them to tape over.
Go to that link, and then go to the Pistols selection on the left side of the page.
On brands, I will try and list them in order I feel they deserve. Keep in mind this is my opinion.
1. TM, or Tokyo Marui. The big dogs of quality. Made in Japan. The best.
2. KSC. Another well made product. They have been around for a long time.
3. Western Arms. Another Japan made. These tend to be very, very complex made GBBs. Quality is awesome, although they may be hard to find replacement parts for.
4. KWA. They have copied many of what the others make. Still, they are good.
5. WE are another copy of the others. This series you can find parts for in the US. Slightly harder with the others above.
6. Maruzen, Marushin, and Tanaka. Again, Japan made. I would have no issue buying one if I couldn’t find the series I was looking for in the above.

There may be many others that YOU think are better, but then again, I wrote this, so I get to share my opinion. By all means, share yours.

Get a Gas Blow Back. Period. You need the slide cycling to insure you get some excellent practice. There is some recoil, and so your sight picture will move somewhat. You want this.
They are upgradeable. You can replace inner barrels, magazine gas valves, recoil guide rods and springs, hammer springs, nozzles, piston heads. I suggest run the GBB stock. That should be enough for you. But, I know there are those of you who will do all and everything you can to it. Rest assured, you can.
Does the model you bought only come with a plastic slide? Most aftermarket companies make full metal parts for the more popular models.
Many models will allow you to change out the sights for your favorite Competition sights. I did this on my Glocks. It makes a huge difference, and also makes my training as realistic as possible. Same Sight Picture!! You can create Open Guns easily also.

You can run them on propane. Understand that there is no silicon in Propane. You will need to add it when you fill the mags. The propane will dry out your seals. Bad, bad, bad. Leave gas in the mags. It helps keep tension on the seals, makes it more difficult to dry them out.

I like to use the Green gas, as it has silicon already added.
The GBBs come with one magazine. Buy extra magazines. As many as you can afford. They are the heart and soul of the GBB. I have (7) for my Glock, (8) for my TM Hi-Capa. The performance WILL be affected in cold weather.
Do NOT drop them on the ground. The feed lips may become damaged. Sorry, they just can not be dropped. You will understand once you feel the weight of the mag. I usually place something that can catch them softly if I am doing something where I need to do mag changes. Get a heating pad in your garage, keep your mags toasty warm on that.
Only lube with silicon. Nothing else.
They have very, very light slide weight! So, you may have to place your finger on the back of the slide to keep it forward when you holster. If you don’t, you will cycle another bb into the chamber.
Most have what’s called Hop UP. This is a system where a protrusion is projected in the chamber area, and as the BB passes by, it is given a back spin. This will give the bb lift when it exits the muzzle. Make the effort to adjust yours. It makes a huge difference usually.
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Old 03-26-2009, 12:10 PM
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Default GAs Block Back Continued

So, get your GBB. Fill your mags up with a bbs.

Here is the little known secret with GBBs and practice. Use BLACK BBS!! Trust me, they force you to use the sights. You can not catch them usually moving to the target. Remember, these GBBs have a low velocity, around 300 fps or less. Use of White BBs will cause you to look past the sights and watch the bbs flight path. Remember, we want these for the training value.

Use a hand loader to fill your mags up.
I next charge the mags with gas. You can do this whenever.
I get my holster set up on next. Kydex holsters work well. The premolded kind is fine, but of course you should be able to use whatever you use as currently. In fact, my Glock manufactured holster, allows for my wide body single actions to easily holster also.
Did I cover targets? Oops.. Here is a site where Brad Holt sells them. These are professionally manufactured and are excellent. Brad uses Airsoft GBBs to practice with. In fact, generally the only time he picks up a real gun is at a match. He gets roughly 50,000 bbs through a GBB. This takes him about 3-4 months to do. Yes, he shoots that much. He does it every day at his home. Remember, that is the advantage of Airsoft. Easy practice at home. I will shoot on the average about 375 bbs here at my shop each day. Every bb I shoot is no different for me then going to the range and shooting. The difference is how easy it is for me, and incredibly cheap.
BRADS Airsoft Targets
I like his steel targets that I suspend within the middle of a wood IPSC cut out. I get an excellent and very rewarding "Tink" when I hit steel. Many of you can understand this if you have shot steel.
His videos don’t demonstrate the sound of the steel well, since the mic is near his head. Trust me, you hear the steel very well..
Set up your targets, and have at it.

I consistently in my classes encourage formal training. If you choose to use Airsoft, then you have made an excellent choice to take your handgun handling to an incredible level. The issue for you on getting the most out of this will be your level of current ability. Sure, you can start just doing draws and firing. The issue may be that you will re-enforcing possibly bad technique.
If IPSC and IDPA is the stuff you want to do, and then you will benefit much by either having some formal instruction from such an Instructor with that type of background, or at the minimum, get some DVDs from one of those guys. Again, trust me, it will make a huge difference. The DVDs or formal Instruction in this discipline will teach you subtle concepts. GBBs are an excellent way to develop your timing. Getting into the cadence of shooting multiple targets. Airsoft works GREAT for this. Plus, it costs like .0036 per bb, if you pay $18.00 for 5000 bbs.
I want to insure you all understand the importance in formalized instruction. Once you have this, then GBBs really shine.
There are way too many other examples that GBBs will help you with for me to list.

For around $200.00 you should be able to get set up with everything you need. Don’t reuse BBs, as they can be deformed in firing. They rip through cardboard like no issue. They will divot sheetrock, but not penetrate.
I use a shop vac to clean up all the bbs on the floor.


You will see more and more use of them in real firearm training as more and more understand what they offer beyond just force on force training.
I want all of you to improve your weapon use and confidence. I have NO doubt you will also see the value once you invest some money and time in exploring GBBS.

I hope this super huge post will get some of you to consider Airsoft.

Be well, and be safe…. Matt Pimentel.

Last edited by Matt P; 03-26-2009 at 12:17 PM..
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  #16  
Old 03-26-2009, 4:02 PM
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Here above is the CED7000 Shot timer I use. I love this unit as its incredible small size and very loud buzzer.
Here s a site to buy one..
CED7000 Shot Timer
I also purchased the AAA battery clip on back up.


These are the targets I am using right now in my shop. Brad Holt hooked me up with the steel that I have hanging from the back side. Very satisfying getting that "Tink" hit... FUN, FUN, and more FUN.


The mess, mess, mess. Not so much fun. I am trying to contain it. I just look at it as tiny examples of effective practice. Much less expensive then a bunch of brass on the ground.
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Old 03-26-2009, 8:19 PM
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I don't like the looks of that timer at all hanging on your wrist. That would bother me when shooting. I like the ones that have the clip so I can put it on my back pocket if I don't have anyone to time me. I always hear the beep and it doesn't get in the way of reloads or anything.

Airsoft is a really good way to practice for almost free. Its also a good way to introduce people to guns that have never shot before.
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Old 03-26-2009, 10:02 PM
Matt P Matt P is offline
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The problem with GBBS cal3gunner, is that its is very difficult to record the shot. Traditionally, you would have to use a stop plate or such to record the sound.
I use my CED for Airsoft on my wrist in an effort to get it as close to the GBB as possible. It needs to be if you hope to record the shots at all.
I dont mind the looks, I am more concerned with function. I showed it to demonstrate you can record most shots with that system.
Normally, you would have had someone hold the timer very close to the muzzle of the GBB. Hard to do if by yourself.
The CED is very, very light. I dont notice it on my wrist at all.
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Old 03-26-2009, 11:43 PM
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Shooting fast and accurately depends 100% on grip, trigger control, front site focus and follow through. The human mind is best able to develop an unconscious competence in all 4 of these fundamentals through DRY FIRE PRACTICE. Removing the distraction of the recoil and noise allows your mind to focus on the small muscle movements necessary for fast and accurate shooting at pistol distances.

Live fire on the range is to confirm these fundamentals and then apply them to whatever tactical situations you devise for that session. Every range session should end with ball and dummy drills to confirm these fundamentals.

Just my $0.02.
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Old 03-27-2009, 6:09 AM
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Matt P, that makes sense. Have you tried seeing how far away it will still pick up the shots? I would try wearing it around your upper arm like joggers do with ipods. It might still pick up the shots. If your system works for you though, don't change anything.

Are you able to time your splits with the airsoft pistol and your timer? If so what are you getting?
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Old 03-27-2009, 7:41 AM
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+1 to Matt P, thanks for sharing all that information! Highly appreciated, hopefully not just be me.
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Old 03-27-2009, 9:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt P View Post
The problem with GBBS cal3gunner, is that its is very difficult to record the shot. Traditionally, you would have to use a stop plate or such to record the sound.
I use my CED for Airsoft on my wrist in an effort to get it as close to the GBB as possible. It needs to be if you hope to record the shots at all.
I dont mind the looks, I am more concerned with function. I showed it to demonstrate you can record most shots with that system.
Normally, you would have had someone hold the timer very close to the muzzle of the GBB. Hard to do if by yourself.
The CED is very, very light. I dont notice it on my wrist at all.
I've been playing with using an airsoft GBB for practice recently, and my results are a little better.

(A couple of tangent comments, while I'm at it: I bought a KSC G17 "with metal slide"; it's dead on for dimensions, etc., and pretty darn close in weight. I got it because doing dry-fire practice where I had to rack the slide every time was enough hassle to de-motivate me. I had figured that even if I never put a single BB in it, the gas-powered reciprocation was worth it for draw-and-click practice. It's not as strong a recoil cycle as the real gun, of course, but it is enough to give some of the right feel, and to knock the sights out of alignment, requiring me to re-acquire. (It feels roughly equivalent to a .22LR recoil.) Adding the BBs, which I find I choose to do about 90% of the time, adds a fun factor enough to be worth it.)

Back to the timer discussion: I finally found my CED 6000 last night, and experimented for one session so far. I found that with the sensitivity pot cranked all the way to the "+" side, and when worn on a loop of cord around my neck (pretty far up; microphone ends up right at the first polo button) it picked up all shots until the very last (think of the last as a squib; there was enough compressed gas to push the pellet out, but not near the full oomph.)

I also experimented with putting it right next to my trap (a traditional air pistol trap) and it was able to pick up on the BB impact every time, but the hassle of pushing the button and then running back to the line isn't a good answer, especially for practicing single shot drills.

I know that with the pot all the way at "+" I'll get "echo shots" when used with a real gun, but I can go back and forth, if needed. It would be a little nicer to have it even more sensitive, but I haven't cracked it open to work on the circuit yet -- and may not; this is good enough for now if it's as reliable as it seemed.
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Old 03-27-2009, 9:20 AM
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264charlie 264charlie is offline
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Thank you for all the great input....
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Old 03-27-2009, 9:33 AM
Matt P Matt P is offline
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It was my pleasure.
I cant express to you all here how profound I feel about the use of Gas Blow Backs for practice.
Please understand that it is critical that if you take advantage of this type of training and the ease of it, formal instruction will be important for you.
I just dont want that lost at all.
Like I said, at the least get the DVDs, Matt Burkett or whatever, it will define what your practice should be. It will help you isolate specific actions for you to develope. Doing all the things the IPSC/IDPA guys do is so much more then drawing and firing. There is MASSIVE timing involved and they will help you understand how to work on it.
Get trained, get confident.

I hope my posts helped any and all.

I have timed my splits. I am usually not really concerned with that as much as my timing while doing individual drills.
I really just draw and fire one supported, shooting hand only, transition to support hand only. And I do timing drills. I rarely look at my splits. So time on those is affected by the type of drill and distance.

Last edited by Matt P; 03-27-2009 at 9:37 AM..
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Old 03-27-2009, 11:11 AM
lairdb lairdb is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt P View Post
[...] formal instruction will be important for you.
I just dont want that lost at all. [...]
What Matt P said. In my case, I recently changed holsters, to a level 2 retention -- and I want that half-second back. So, my present practice is focused almost entirely on 1st shot times and rapid-reacquisition of sights. At the moment, it's hard for me to imagine a better setup for practicing that.

(Although I'm thinking seriously about grinding off these d**n finger ridges. Who thought this was a good idea? Guess I'll be buying used Glocks if I need another....)
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Old 03-27-2009, 11:28 AM
Matt P Matt P is offline
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Lairdb, I used the GBBs to practice my Glock grips reduction. Its cinch on the real deal or the Airsoft version.
I use a dremel.
You would be amazed at how much you can take off, and not affect anything.

Airsoft is an excellent use for such a drill. The AEGs also are excellent training. I use my AEG to practice multiples and movement drills..Fun stuff.
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Old 03-29-2009, 11:28 AM
tiki tiki is offline
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Default GBB dealer in Sacramento area

Can someone recommend a good place to buy a quality GBB 1911 in the Sacramento or surrounding areas?
Thanks.
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