.243 vs. .260 for all around uses

[postal]

Originally Posted by ar15barrels

243's don't need muzzle brakes due to the lightweight bullets.

Even a 308 with 175's doesnt need a brake... My GF will shoot all the 308 ammo I bring to the range if I dont stop her- without a brake-

But I'm thinking about you cutting my barrel down to 14" and permanently install a 2" side blaster on it just cuz I *owe* some people some vicious payback.

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by postal

Even a 308 with 175's doesnt need a brake...

I disagree.
You can't spot your own impacts inside 300yds with a 308 like you can with a 243.

[Timberwolf]

Originally Posted by ar15barrels

I disagree.
You can't spot your own impacts inside 300yds with a 308 like you can with a 243.

Its evidently been awhile since you've shot a 308 on a steady basis. With a 12+lb rifle if you have a proper position, load the bipod and concentrate on your follow through you can stay in your scope and spot your hits through recoil, even at 100 yards with an unbraked 308. Hell it can even be done with a light rifle if your drive it tight.

[Splinter]

Reread what he said timberwolf. He said you cant spot your own impacts LIKE you can with a 243. Sure, you can spot your hits with an unbraked 308, but its a struggle like your saying. 243 is the best all around round IMO.

[Timberwolf]

I'm a little cantankerous today

[Religious Shooter]

I'd limit a .308 Win division to 168+ grain bullets.

If you consistently had a .308 Win division from match to match I wouldn't be surprised that a) it would attract new shooters and b) the number of participants in the .308 Win division would eventually outstrip the "Open" division shooters.

[Pthfndr]

Originally Posted by Religious Shooter

I'd limit a .308 Win division to 168+ grain bullets.

We have a 1000 yard range. 168s don't make it all the way very often.

Besides, how are you going to make sure everyone is actually using the right bullet?

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by Pthfndr

We have a 1000 yard range. 168s don't make it all the way very often.

I think he means 168gr and heavier to get rid of the 155gr gamers such as myself.
175's work at 1000 and would be allowed under such a rule.

It would be a serious hassle to enforce such a rule.

A chronograph could catch the cheaters as their velocities would be higher than expected.
The 155's lose all their advantage when you slow them down to 168gr speeds.

[Timberwolf]

Good I'll just run my 190s - a little slow at the start but they finish faster than the 175s.

[Religious Shooter]

Just tell the shooters what the rules are. I've found, as a whole, competition shooters aren't a**holes.

How many times have you gone to a local USPSA match or 3 gun match or whatever? You tell them what division you shoot in... and that's it.

Nobody checks that you are shooting major by chronoing your rounds. Nobody checks the features of your guns. Etc.

By far... it works. There isn't rampant cheating in those events. Is it going to be different if we did it with the local PR matches?

Or are PR shooters a bunch of lying cheaters?

[wildcard]

Originally Posted by Religious Shooter

Or are PR shooters a bunch of lying cheaters?

Can't trust any of 'em. Cheating bastards!
I was chronoed like 3 times in one day for a match.

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by wildcard

I was chronoed like 3 times in one day for a match.

That's because targets kept breaking!

[Tacticalintervention]

Link, I have a new 308 DTA kit, I dont use. All my DTA's are set up for 338 Lapua. Contact me via PM if you want it. The 338s shot so wlel I can not bring myself to changing over

This is an interesting discussion and much like the ones from IPSC first came out. The Stock 45acp caliber guys where the 308 guys and the race 38 Super Guys where the 243/260 crowd. In the end as the sport grew there became classes. It has been pointed out the sport is not big enough yet, to have two classes.

In competition one thing is certain Guys will push the envelope to get a slight edge, so they can win over shooter with equal abilities. That is not a judgement its a fact. It is like every other sport on planet, including war ( US owns the night so lets attack at night) Why give up an advantage.

Now for F Class, they branched off into Open and Restricted ( 308) classes. At first the 308s where sparse but now we are fairly equal with Open Cllass. Here is a funny thing you will notice F Open and F TR tend to have very similar scores 600 yards and closer but when they go 800-1000 yards, the better calibers scores go up. Here is a catch though, the better 308 shooters beat a metric ton of Open Class shooters, at distance in the wind. If you can not dope wind you are still screwed if it starts to blow.

But even if there is a 308 Class there will be "Gamers" If there is a prize you will see Gammers. Crap at F Class Worlds, I saw a guy in Restricted Class ( Bipod and rear sand bag) attempt to use a home engineered return to batter system to get and edge. His bipod legs went into the contraption which basically took the shooter out of the equation. At US Nationals a couple of years ago I caught guy shooting Open Rifle in similar fashion, and was not even putting his shoulder on weapon. Moral is if there is a prize some guy will attemp to get around rules.

Now lets say we had a 308 class. What would then be further rules? I mean you give me a 24" bbl throated so I can get my 155 Scenars loaded to 2.92" and guess what I am at 3050+ fps. The guy with box stock 168s is in a bad way.

I would love to see sport grow big enough to have a 308 stock class, requirring factory ammo and have weight limit of under 15lbs with scope,bipod and sling.

On caliber between 243 and 260. Its a toose up. Slightly longer bbl life for 260, with brass being PIA or slightly shorter bbl life with good brass, right out of a box. Well I made this choice recently and picked 260 because I love how that 139 Scenar flies, but not really a bad choice between the two. Now why did I decide to go to a 260 for Tactica Style Matches? Smple my body is so screwed up I dont do well with positional shooting anymore, so I want every point I can get on the pure precision shooting side of the matches. If I had my way I would see every match be shot at 1000 yards with 308s only, LOL, but thats because I feel thats my best shooting. It would not be a good tactical match. I doubt you would get many Tactical Shooters out there.

Hey lets talk of the positive things. I see the matches getting more and more positional shooting events. Damm just like real world you dont get many places you lay on perfect level ground with nothing in front of you but target.

So to end this rant I say Hats off to the match directors for growing the sport. It will continue to morphe and grow.

[PistolPete75]

I shot both the .243win and .260rem, and I love the .260rem a whole lot more the then the .243win. The .260rem is simply stupid accurate, and very easy to load for. 139scenars in cheapo RP brass will shoot .3/.4moa will very little effort. Barrel life on the .243win can go south real fast, if you shoot with hot loads in multiple strings back to back. Only thing the .243win has over the .260rem is a hundred of two fps over the .260rem. I am convinced that I have found the "perfect" rifle for me. Surgeon 591 with a kreiger is a garanteed hammer.

[advocatusdiaboli]

Originally Posted by rksimple

Firmly getting its a** kicked by the better calibers. But thats fine. Despite what advancements are made, there will be those that adhere to the ol standby because they know no better. And if it works for them, so be it. I'll always have a 308 barrel around, but I doubt it'll ever see time on an action. Unless theres a 308 only match that I just HAVE to shoot.

The horse and buggy days sure were good while they lasted though...

This reminds me of the .45 ACP versus .40 S&W and .357 SIG debates. I view the .45 ACP as the .308 rifle equivalent in the pistol caliber debate. It's got history and accomplishment and is still good, but technology has passed it by. Passed it by at a cost and not just a cost in money. And it will never go away even if it has been bested--it's still more than adequate within it limitations.

I am new to this topic but interested--the only rifle I have shot were for Uncle Sam. I had decided on a .270 Win for my first bolt action, but now I'll look again at .260 as maybe better provided I am willing to reload. This would be for hunting but also try at precision--hence not considering .308 or 30-06.

[xrMike]

Originally Posted by PistolPete75

I shot both the .243win and .260rem, and I love the .260rem a whole lot more the then the .243win. The .260rem is simply stupid accurate, and very easy to load for. 139scenars in cheapo RP brass will shoot .3/.4moa will very little effort. Barrel life on the .243win can go south real fast, if you shoot with hot loads in multiple strings back to back. Only thing the .243win has over the .260rem is a hundred of two fps over the .260rem. I am convinced that I have found the "perfect" rifle for me. Surgeon 591 with a kreiger is a garanteed hammer.

Excellent post in a great thread...

So roughly how much does this exact .260 run you, without the glass, and how long do you typically have to wait for it? I assume Randall can build something like that, right?

This really is the next step for me. Shooting an AR out to 300 yards is getting pretty boring.

[bridgeport]

Where the .243 destroys the .260 is in its versatility. Anybody here getting 4000fps out of their .260? .243 will go 4k with 55's or better. Change barrels and you can go with 115
heavies. Do you like to hunt little critters? Try the 85g TSX solid copper to drop a deer, or
to put down a jack/yote at 600 yds. Put a brake on the .243 and you will be enjoying a clear sight picture at whatever distance you are shooting. There is a niche where the .260 is great, though some would argue that "great" would only be in comparison with the .308. Why? because if .30 is what you have your heart set on, you are better served with a larger case and more powder, which drops the .260 proportionally to the back of the line. The .243 is already a proportionally "magnum" cartridge, just at the small end of things. Parker Ackley used to say that the .243 was an "improved" cartridge in its original form, which is good enough for me, even though people have "improved" the shoulder which in my opinion only hinders feeding. Just my .02.

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by xrMike

how long do you typically have to wait for it?

I've put one together beginning to end in 4 weeks.
That's from a person saying "I think I want... until they go shoot it at the range"
That's finding the action, barrel blank and stock off-the-shelf and then coming over.
Once all the parts are in-hand, it's an evening to build the gun.

$1300 for a surgeon 591 repeater action
$300 for a krieger barrel
$1100 for an adjustable mcmillan A5 with badger bottom metal
$120 for a timney trigger
$250 to fit the barrel and put the gun together

It does not have to cost this much though...
Look at my custom rifle builder spreadsheet found here:
http://www.caprc.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=612
That will let you pick actions, stocks, triggers, bottom metal etc... to help you have budget a gun.

[PistolPete75]

Originally Posted by xrMike

Excellent post in a great thread...

So roughly how much does this exact .260 run you, without the glass, and how long do you typically have to wait for it? I assume Randall can build something like that, right?

This really is the next step for me. Shooting an AR out to 300 yards is getting pretty boring.

My specific build cost me a pretty penny. I paid about 4k for my build which was done by Kampfeld Customs. It was expensive, but it gives me a hard on everytime I shoot it. Best of all, it shoots as good as it looks. Wait time was about 9 months. Carl is not the fastest, but I can garantee you he's is detailed like a mo fo. Fit and finish is top notch. Carl turns a hammer to a sledge hammer.

Randall can put together a rifle in a jiffy. He is competent on putting together a build for you quickly and efficiently. Don't look for a looker from Randall, but he'll build an accurate rifle as any other builder out there.

These are my main two rifles. Both in .260rem.

[xrMike]

Really good-looking rifles, Pete.

Thanks Randall, I'm saving now -- I also need to sell a bike and another gun first, probably.

[DirtRacer151]

Originally Posted by PistolPete75

Don't look for a looker from Randall, but he'll build an accurate rifle as any other builder out there.

LOL i think the problem is that Randal builds rifles for people who don't care what they look like and are more concerned with how they shoot.

There's gun owners and then there's shooters.....

[PistolPete75]

Originally Posted by DirtRacer151

LOL i think the problem is that Randal builds rifles for people who don't care what they look like and are more concerned with how they shoot.

There's gun owners and then there's shooters.....

There's also different levels of people. All smiths can build an accurate rifle. Trust me on this. Newbs, veterans, and everything else in between. If want you determine the quality of a smith, look into the resell market.

By the way, my round count is about 80 rounds a week. Not bad for married guy with two kids, a business, and a LIFE! lol! To each his own. Never said a bad thing about Randall, I just state facts. No politics, just the truth.

For someone that even doesn't know me, you sure like to say alot.

One more thing, I own a total of 4 firearms. I bet everyone on the board has more more firearms then I. Quality over quantity.

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by PistolPete75

If want you determine the quality of a smith, look into the resell market.

The resale value has more to do with popularity than the actual quality of the specific rifle.
Companies gain popularity by consistently doing quality work though.

[Hateca]

Originally Posted by PistolPete75

There's also different levels of people. All smiths can build an accurate rifle. Trust me on this. Newbs, veterans, and everything else in between. If want you determine the quality of a smith, look into the resell market.

By the way, my round count is about 80 rounds a week. Not bad for married guy with two kids, a business, and a LIFE! lol! To each his own. Never said a bad thing about Randall, I just state facts. No politics, just the truth.

For someone that even doesn't know me, you sure like to say alot.

One more thing, I own a total of 4 firearms. I bet everyone on the board has more more firearms then I. Quality over quantity.

Resale market doesn’t tell you crap about a builder. I see lots of rifles for sale by other builders on the forums, it doesn’t make them good or bad.

If I see no rifles from a particular builder in the resale market there could be several reasons for this, not very many rifles built in that particular genre by that builder, or over priced for what you get and no one buys, or they could be crap builders, and no one buys.

Please, most shooters have no idea what it should or should not take to build a good shooting rifle, or what a good build even is.

And then there are the buyers that are so vain that they buy what they think no one else has and makes themselves look like they really have something, and then can’t shoot the thing to save their life and put it on the market.

I've looked at and shot lots of rifles by many of the "top" builders. Some are over priced, some are over built just to make the builder money (a lot of what you pay for is not necessary and is only to make the builder easy money), some price their rifles because of there name.

There's no black magic in building a rifle. Every builder uses the same parts, pretty much the same technique as the next. The machining, pretty much, must be done a same way, with some common variations.

If the rifle performs I don’t really care what the stupid thing looks like, it’s a tool. After that it all about individual taste and looks. Sort of like putting chrome wheels on your Camry, it might look good but do those chrome wheels make that Camry drive any better or faster then before?

I'm more inclined to look at machine work, the set up prior to machining, and other details before I make a judgment on whether or not a rifle builder knows what they are doing before I look at what the resale market might say.

[wildcard]

Originally Posted by DirtRacer151

There's gun owners and then there's shooters.....

That's actually an illogical argument.
Almost every shooter is an owner. They're not mutually exclusive and gun owners are inclusive of shooters

However, I believe what you're trying to describe are gun owner who are not shooters.

[DirtRacer151]

Originally Posted by PistolPete75

There's also different levels of people. All smiths can build an accurate rifle. Trust me on this. Newbs, veterans, and everything else in between. If want you determine the quality of a smith, look into the resell market.

By the way, my round count is about 80 rounds a week. Not bad for married guy with two kids, a business, and a LIFE! lol! To each his own. Never said a bad thing about Randall, I just state facts. No politics, just the truth.

For someone that even doesn't know me, you sure like to say alot.

One more thing, I own a total of 4 firearms. I bet everyone on the board has more more firearms then I. Quality over quantity.

LOL settle down Turbo. I didn't say anything about you for the record.

I was merely commenting on your statement. Most buyers base a rifles build quality by the way the paint looks or the stock that was used. Randall builds rifles with one thought in mind and that's to shoot. Nothing wrong with builders who make em look pretty but I think Randall attracts the no frills all business crowd which I think is his targeted market anyway. Ask him to airbrush your stock and he will probably laugh at you LOL.

Your guns do look nice though. Its your AR pic on the hide that lit the fire under my butt to build a AR-260 to complement my bolt gun. I'm sure ill catch crap from Randall about it because its actually a pretty worthless gun but IDC because I still want one. My upper and lower receiver matched set is being built as we speak

[PistolPete75]

Randy is right. Quality is not the only factor within the resell market. However, in all types of appraisals including personal property appraisals, the "market" or "buyers" determine demand and their percieved "quality" on items. Such quality of lets say firearms in practicality goes down to 1. machining, and 2. fit and finish. If one can machine in a competent manner, it is safe to say with the proper knowledge they can build an accurate rifle. The fit and finish, is a different story. Some smiths are better then others in this manner. Ultimately, the "quality" is in the eyes of the beholder or end user. The market will thus determine which smiths has the quality and demand. In the resell market, buyers tend to be smarter then the in the retail market. Top smiths get top dollar. That's a simple rule.

In other words, some "brands" are worth more then other "brands." For the sake of arguement, Kellog's Frosted Flakes will fetch more in the market, then Von's Toasty Sugar Flakes. A Lexus will fetch more then it's counterpart Toyota, etc. etc.

No harm, no foul dirtracer.

[wildcard]

Originally Posted by Hateca

There's no black magic in building a rifle.

Lol. Said by a/the top builder himself. Randy definitely gets that job done right and doesn't try to BS you.

Try to get other smiths to admit the same..

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by Hateca

If the rifle performs I don’t really care what the stupid thing looks like, it’s a tool.

+1.

[Hateca]

Originally Posted by PistolPete75

In other words, some "brands" are worth more then other "brands." For the sake of arguement, Kellog's Frosted Flakes will fetch more in the market, then Von's Toasty Sugar Flakes. A Lexus will fetch more then it's counterpart Toyota, etc. etc.

No harm, no foul dirtracer.

You just proved some of my points, it's the name not necessarily the quality and most buyers are stupid when it comes to what makes a rifle a good shooter, and this applies to both retail and resale, makes no difference.

I wish I had a dollar every time I ask someone why they bought builder "A" rifle over builder "B", and they say...”oh I don't know it seemed to be the most popular”. They bought the name not the quality because they had no idea what the hell they would even look for or what is important in a good shooting rifle.

These are the same ones who will post the same rifle in the for sale section a few months later.

Looks don’t make it a shooter. Makeup on a pig is still a pig.

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by Hateca

it's the name not necessarily the quality and most buyers are stupid when it comes to what makes a rifle a good shooter, and this applies to both retail and resale, makes no difference.

I wish I had a dollar every time I ask someone why they bought builder "A" rifle over builder "B", and they say...”oh I don't know it seemed to be the most popular”. They bought the name not the quality because they had no idea what the hell they would even look for or what is important in a good shooting rifle.

I think I was saying sorta the same thing above...

Originally Posted by ar15barrels

The resale value has more to do with popularity than the actual quality of the specific rifle.

[PistolPete75]

You can argue the name and quality does go hand to hand in many cases. Not true 100% of time, but mostly true. Terry Cross, Surgeon Rifles, and GA Precision. All top smiths. They all charge top prices in retail, and their prices are still high on the resell market. Branding, quality of build, attention to detail in both manners of machining, fit, finish, etc. On the retail side, there are other factors such as customer service, turn around time, etc.

i.e. Mini Cooper gets on hell of a resale value of let's say over for Ford or Chevy. Mini Cooper is backed my BMW, another great car company with a solid resale value. Ford, Chevys, BMW, etc they all get you from point a to b.

Randy, you do good quality work. I'm not knocking you at all. I love my first build I had done from you. A true hammer. What I'm saying is what I said a few posts above. All smiths are pretty much the same. It's the fit and finish is what sets each apart. Depending on what I want, I'll use the particular smith. Tons of smiths to choose from. We are lucky to have so many.

As for rifles being a tool. You are right. However for many, it's also a toy. I'm no operator by any means. Just a hobbyist. I like my toys looking good.

[rksimple]

Perceived quality and actual quality are 2 different things. Quite often, the end user is too incompetent to judge what actual quality is other than "it looks pretty" and "its from a popular builder."

I like shooting what works. How it looks or how popular the guy is that built my rifle is meaningless. My rifles now look like franken guns with mismatched colors and finishes. Doesn't seem to stop them from shooting lights out. And the deer fall just as hard.

[buffybuster]

Originally Posted by Hateca

Resale market doesn’t tell you crap about a builder. I see lots of rifles for sale by other builders on the forums, it doesn’t make them good or bad.

If I see no rifles from a particular builder in the resale market there could be several reasons for this, not very many rifles built in that particular genre by that builder, or over priced for what you get and no one buys, or they could be crap builders, and no one buys.

Please, most shooters have no idea what it should or should not take to build a good shooting rifle, or what a good build even is.

And then there are the buyers that are so vain that they buy what they think no one else has and makes themselves look like they really have something, and then can’t shoot the thing to save their life and put it on the market.

I've looked at and shot lots of rifles by many of the "top" builders. Some are over priced, some are over built just to make the builder money (a lot of what you pay for is not necessary and is only to make the builder easy money), some price their rifles because of there name.

There's no black magic in building a rifle.Every builder uses the same parts, pretty much the same technique as the next. The machining, pretty much, must be done a same way, with some common variations.

If the rifle performs I don’t really care what the stupid thing looks like, it’s a tool. After that it all about individual taste and looks. Sort of like putting chrome wheels on your Camry, it might look good but do those chrome wheels make that Camry drive any better or faster then before?

I'm more inclined to look at machine work, the set up prior to machining, and other details before I make a judgment on whether or not a rifle builder knows what they are doing before I look at what the resale market might say.

I wonder how many smiths are "over building" to pad the bill and make it "appear" more difficult than it is to build a good shooting rifle.

[Hateca]

Originally Posted by buffybuster

I wonder how many smiths are "over building" to pad the bill and make it "appear" more difficult than it is to build a good shooting rifle.

Oh god, you would be shocked to know.

Originally Posted by PistolPete75

Randy, you do good quality work. I'm not knocking you at all. I love my first build I had done from you. A true hammer. What I'm saying is what I said a few posts above. All smiths are pretty much the same. It's the fit and finish is what sets each apart. Depending on what I want, I'll use the particular smith. Tons of smiths to choose from. We are lucky to have so many.

As for rifles being a tool. You are right. However for many, it's also a toy. I'm no operator by any means. Just a hobbyist. I like my toys looking good.

I didn't say you were knocking my work but you're stuck on the fact that you are judging a rifles ability to shoot based on "fit and finish" and how the rifle looks. You equate that to it being able to shoot good, or better then one where the "fit and finish" may not be up to ones standards, that’s flawed. Everything you talk about is a perceived notion about the rifle, not what is fact and based in true reality.

I can build a beautiful rifle, with fit and finish that would make you afraid to touch it for fear of scratching it and make that same rifle shoot like crap. I can make a rifle look like crap, like it been road hard and put away wet and shoot better then you can. By your analogy you would pick the pretty rifle believing it could shoot better based on how it looked and its fit and finish.

There have been plenty a rifle built from every builder that ended up shooting like crap based on something out of the control of the builder. So if your new rifle shot like crap but looked pretty would you consider the rifle builder incompetent even though you choose it based on how it looked or the fit or finish?

The knowledgeable shooter who knows what to look for and knows what is needed and what is fluff will not decided on looks and fit and finish, sure some will but most won't when it comes down to the old mighty dollar. But again these are the ones you find in the for sale section a few month later because the buyer had champagne taste and a beer budget and bought the rifle based on a name.

Having two rifles that shoot the same, and built with the same components one costing $1500 less then the other only because of the name or the perceived "fit and finish", the knowledgeable shooter will pick the one that cost less, simple as that.

[buffybuster]

Originally Posted by Hateca

Oh god, you would be shocked to know.



I didn't say you were knocking my work but you're stuck on the fact that you are judging a rifles ability to shoot based on "fit and finish" and how the rifle looks. You equate that to it being able to shoot good, or better then one where the "fit and finish" may not be up to ones standards, that’s flawed. Everything you talk about is a perceived notion about the rifle, not what is fact and based in true reality.

I can build a beautiful rifle, with fit and finish that would make you afraid to touch it for fear of scratching it and make that same rifle shoot like crap. I can make a rifle look like crap, like it been road hard and put away wet and shoot better then you can. By your analogy you would pick the pretty rifle believing it could shoot better based on how it looked and its fit and finish.

There have been plenty a rifle built from every builder that ended up shooting like crap based on something out of the control of the builder. So if your new rifle shot like crap but looked pretty would you consider the rifle builder incompetent even though you choose it based on how it looked or the fit or finish?

The knowledgeable shooter who knows what to look for and knows what is needed and what is fluff will not decided on looks and fit and finish, sure some will but most won't when it comes down to the old mighty dollar. But again these are the ones you find in the for sale section a few month later because the buyer had champagne taste and a beer budget and bought the rifle based on a name.

Having two rifles that shoot the same, and built with the same components one costing $1500 less then the other only because of the name or the perceived "fit and finish", the knowledgeable shooter will pick the one that cost less, simple as that.

Randy,

Can you please clarify what procedures/operations are necessary and what are "fluff/moneymakers" in regard to building a well shooting rifle. We're trying to become informed consumers and would appreciate any insights.

Thanks

Henry

[PistolPete75]

A builder once told me smoke and mirrors. I know this holds true in terms of accuracy. All guns weather it's ugly or not will hold the same accuracy. If that's your definition of quality, then all builds by top or low end builders will be the same. Only difference should be price, turn around time, and cs.

As for me, I usually do look to see how my rifle will sell in the resell market b4 making my purchase. As the customer, I have the right. The resell market will determine demand and quality in terms of a dollar amount. You can argue ford and chevy all day long, but the consumer has the last say.

I like some of the fluff. Do I need it, nope. It won't help me shoot any better. But I like it. It's a personal choice of mine. You may not need the leather seats, but it's sure hell of nice to have it.

To each his own. I as well as the general market have a right to spend where my money where I want. I can take pride that my non-tactical smith took his time and energy on my rifle. Machining the brake is seamless and completely undetectable even with the cerakote. Bedding is completely seemless with no signs of extra little bedding between the action and stock. Each screw is torqued to exact specifications. Gun came packed with extra care, and gun was completely greased and cleaned. It's kind of like when a contractor cleans up your place after he finishes his job. You get that squeeky clean feeling. And I love my spiral flute. It's his "thing" that makes it look different then the others.

Will a KC rifle sell well in the resell market. Quite franky, I really don't care. It's exactly what I wanted. Will a used Terry Cross Sentinel sell close to msrp in today's market? I think so. I'm not comparing apples to oranges, but it was said to prove a point.

[rksimple]

Originally Posted by PistolPete75

As for me, I usually do look to see how my rifle will sell in the resell market b4 making my purchase. As the customer, I have the right. The resell market will determine demand and quality in terms of a dollar amount.

Originally Posted by PistolPete75

Will a KC rifle sell well in the resell market. Quite franky, I really don't care.

Anyone can buy any rifle with any accoutrements they wish. But don't try to justify it with convoluted and contradictory rationale. To each their own.

[ar15barrels]

Originally Posted by PistolPete75

A builder once told me smoke and mirrors.
I know this holds true in terms of accuracy.
All guns weather it's ugly or not will hold the same accuracy.
If that's your definition of quality, then all builds by top or low end builders will be the same.

It still has to be put together well to be accurate/precise.
If you have a great barrel with a bad chambering job, it's probably going to shoot just like a factory gun.

[PistolPete75]

Originally Posted by rksimple

Anyone can buy any rifle with any accoutrements they wish. But don't try to justify it with convoluted and contradictory rationale. To each their own.

There is a reason why each smiths have a certain type of customers.

Cheap guys are cheap guys, don't know what to tell you about that. If you want basic, it's basic.

There is also a reason why certain guys go the cheaper route. That's a whole new discussion. The guy that might not care what his rifle looks like might be the same guy that will pay his wife to clean his office.

I like the nicer stuff. I always been that way. I don't mind spending top dollar on a rig that no one has in socal. Some guys goes down the less travelled path.

There are other reasons, why people buy GAP or a top dollar Surgeon. To each his own. I personally wouldn't mind dropping $4,200 on a KMW Sentinel. Would it hold it's value, cause people would value it to be a high end rig? Food for thought. I personally like it again, cause it one bad axx rig that I would love to shoot. Plus, it sure would have one hell of a good resale value. No other rig that comes close to it in functionality or looks.