let's not discuss 'workarounds' for now...

[bwiese]

Kes has requested in another thread to be wary of "new products" given recent legislation. I heartily concur
on most, esp from out-of-state vendors who may not "have the full picture".

Some of these products may/may not be useful as workarounds in future ... "depending"....

Remember things have just STARTED; there are a variety of issues here.

Firstly, AS OF NOW YOU DO NOT HAVE "AWs" if you have BB maglock'd guns. This status does NOT trigger
until next year. Right now you do not have to do anything.

However:

1. legislative session not over yet: gut/amend can cause problems THIS YEAR.
2. legislation could be sought next year that could affect AWs being reg'd in 2017.
3. Admin Procedures Act ("APA") compliance is exempted in new AW laws; DOJ BoF could
   "go wild" with "glue-on" regulatory provisions exceeding authority of statutory law.
   [Remember Miss Alison running wild back in 2006, spewing paper all over the place?]
   
   If they do this, it means we have to go into courts (state, for underground regulation; Fed if it
   really escalates into Heller territory) - since Office of Admin Law will be useless here (not that
   they've been that helpful anyway, and generally do roll with agency position unless egregious).

So there are multiple matters we might want to keep quiet for awhile - and then move very very quickly
"while the iron's hot".

I think SOME of you can envision what one or two of them are, and are sensible enough to not jump up &
down and crow about them publicly and get reporters hot & bothered - as that will not help us.

I myself am laughing at some of the conflicts - and the huge "Heller briar patch trap" one of the other laws
helped walk us right into. ;-)

I'm sure other gun orgs are preparing, certainly CA NRA - great! [CA NRA's new lobbyist, I understand, is
also a lawyer.]

I will remind you that CGF's past rolls-in-the-mud & founding were involved in these very matters and will have
to ramp up further if things get crazy beyond our already significant caseload (Pena, Silvester (and
prospective derivatives), more on Texiera, poss. Richards escalation in cooperation w Peruta etc.

Remember that featureless is still featureless and they haven't (and really can't via Heller) ban the most
useful "California flavoring" on many guns: a detachable magazine semiauto centerfire rifle without cosmetics.

Those with semiauto centerfire rifles having a so-called "flash hider" may want to think about converting to a
documented muzzle brake/compensator or thread protector sooner than later for flexibility of (re)configuration.

[From a practical standpoint FHs don't do 95++% of CA shooters much real-world good - and powder plays large
part in flash reduction).

This allows more flexible combinations and also allows mix'n'match quickly without criminalizing configurations -
and/or risking Nguyen-escalated semi-constructive possession worries about separated parts.

For those with "unique" guns that are NOT ARs or similar, and who do not want to reg as AWs, start investigating
NOW 'featureless' setups using Kydex grip wraps (Solar Tactical does a fine one for ARs/AKs). Remember
that this must really block thumb positioning and be stiff enough to NOT BE PUSHED AWAY.


And dammit, don't start throwing out your mags yet either.

[CalNRA]

Hey Bill,

At current time, which direction are donations best directed for the upcoming efforts, since they are CA specific issues?

Thanks

[komifornian]

Stop posting work arounds!
Stop do not take a public stand "on a public forum" that you won't comply
Stop, take a deep breath, don't panic
TAKE IT OFF LINE!

[bwiese]

CalNRA...

I have to, since a Board member, say we at CGF would appreciate some support. Just because things
don't pop up in the news daily doesn't mean work is not being done etc. There's a lot of irons on the
fire.

CRPA *Foundation* is prob the best way to channel directly to NRA-CRPA's California-specific legal efforts.

[QuarterBoreGunner]

Sticking this for TBD.

[209Infidel]

Yeah well prince kind of already let the cat out of the bag on FPC. Plus the mag lock has been out for a while. But the libs are so victory drunk on their Frappuccino smoothies hopefully they won't get wise to it for awhile.

[bwiese]

Originally Posted by 209Infidel

Yeah well prince kind of already let the cat out of the bag on FPC. Plus the mag lock has been out for a while. But the libs are so victory drunk on their Frappuccino smoothies hopefully they won't get wise to it for awhile.

More than that etc.

[1bulletBarney]

Thank you Bill for one of the most informative post since Gov Brown signed these bills into law. Good to hear from you...

BTW, I can't throw away what I don't have...

[cr1ms0njyhad]

Originally Posted by bwiese

For those with "unique" guns that are NOT ARs or similar, and who do not want to reg as AWs, start investigating
NOW 'featureless' setups using Kydex grip wraps (Solar Tactical does a fine one for ARs/AKs). Remember
that this must really block thumb positioning and be stiff enough to NOT BE PUSHED AWAY.

Or if the kydex wrap feels too 'floppy' no matter what you do, both the hammerhead grip and monsterman grip come in AK flavors (as well as AR flavors of course.) Pick whatever looks/feels right to you.

[chris]

Originally Posted by bwiese

And dammit, don't start throwing out your mags yet either.

Bill I think the compliance statewide will be about the same as it is in LA which is about zero.

[shenanigoat]

One thing l've found that helps with the "floppyness" of the grip wraps is to cover the pistol grip with a piece of bicycle inner tube first, and then put the wrap on. It imparts a little bit of extra material underneath, and that combined with the stickiness of the rubber helps hold everthing in place. To me it feels way more solid than just the kydex and pistol grip by themselves.

[CapnElectron]

Being a 70 year old veteran, I would like to keep the rifles I have built from off-list stripped lowers, California compliant. If I ever have to defend my family, I would not like to forfeit my ability to own self defense weapons.
I built my rifles for 3 gun completion and varmint matches at my local range, and outside of the Zombie Apocalypse, or active isis invasion, I will probably never have to use them, but just-in-case, I've decided to go featureless.
My two long range rifles are already featureless except for the addition of monsterman grips. My carbine is another matter. I will add Monsterman grips, a fixed (Ace) stock, and I've opted for a liner compensator. I will be keeping the manufacturers tag/description in my wallet if U have to prove to a LEO that it's really a compensator. If a grid down/apocalypse situation ever occurs, it will only take me a couple of hours to revert back to the un-nueterd configuration. The ammo ban is, to me, a more serious problem, especially for competitive ammunition, and I guess I will have to get my old ammomaster up to snuff.
Any constructive comments are appreciated!
-Mike

[Redeyedrider]

Originally Posted by shenanigoat

One thing l've found that helps with the "floppyness" of the grip wraps is to cover the pistol grip with a piece of bicycle inner tube first, and then put the wrap on. It imparts a little bit of extra material underneath, and that combined with the stickiness of the rubber helps hold everthing in place. To me it feels way more solid than just the kydex and pistol grip by themselves.

Rubber Pond Liner is even better. It's more uniform and higher quality than bicycle tubes. If you know of a koi pond store in your area, go in and ask for a couple scraps....... Cheaper too

[thmpr]

Thank you Bill for hope.... I still remember the initial offlist lower hoops we had to go through...

[VaderSpade]

Quote " Right now you do not have to do anything. "

Later you won't be able to find parts to do anything, but mum's the word.

[A-J]

While I understand the point of the OP, I find it extremely disturbing that we are at a point where we need to meet in secret for fear of the state apparatus learning about ideas and circumventing them.

[j-shot]

We have all quit guns. Nothing to see here. Move along.

[bwiese]

Originally Posted by CapnElectron

... but just-in-case, I've decided to go featureless. My two long range rifles
are already featureless except for the addition of monsterman grips.

This means your guns are truly 'featureless'. The MonsterMan grips
are NOT a 'feature' - the MMGs are not pistol grips nor are a characteristic feature defined by SB23 or further defined in regulatory definition 11 CCR 5469.


The rest of your description is fine. Any telestock should be fixed and not collpasible.

Any muzzle device should be sold/marketed as a 'brake' or FAKE flash hider or thread protector - and no mention of FH abilities.

[Librarian]

bump

[Cool Beans]

Originally Posted by A-J

While I understand the point of the OP, I find it extremely disturbing that we are at a point where we need to meet in secret for fear of the state apparatus learning about ideas and circumventing them.

Yet "The Safety for All Act" on the November ballot is a blatant attempt to flaunt the legislature's ability to circumvent the governor's vetoes. To use their favorite word against them, they're utilizing a "loophole".

That's only valid, of course, if you use the anti-2A crowd's definition of loophole which is to follow the letter of the law, as written, in a manner they don't like.

[VaderSpade]

Just like campaign finance reform. How long does it take THEM to find the loopholes in anything the people want????

https://www.bing.com/search?q=campai...16&FORM=CHROMN

[erik_26]

I don't understand all the hush, hush.....

Yes, I get that the legislation season is not over. Yes I get that more laws can get to the govenors desk.

But... what does it matter, honestly?

If we put a 'work around', really configure our equipment to be compliant yet some what tolerable for us, out in the open, what difference does it make? If the law makers don't like what we have, they will outlaw that next. Sure, maybe this year, maybe next year or the year after that. Either way we are just delaying the inevitable.

The courts aren't going to go in our favor. We know that from the past 16 + years. Some of the old timers could probably point out how the courts have failed us for the past 30-years. Gun rights and California don't belong in the same sentence anymore and sadly, they probably never will ever again.

[209Infidel]

I say we stop self censoring and calling on moderators to remove posts talking about products that will defeat their bill. Who cares if we talk about franklins fixed magazine, Armaglock, bb2.0. They are going to find out sooner or later, if they don't already. We should be throwing the fact that we already have workarounds in their face. I would rather show them that no matter what unconstitutional bill they pass we will still find a way to exercise our 2A right. So stop being so scared that they are watching our posts and might find out are little "secret". I understand that they still might have time to close these "loopholes" but who cares. Everyone knows their ultimate goal is an all out ban on guns. So us not talking about what to do is not going to make a difference in the long run. Being so passive and not speaking out is what got us in this mess to begin with. So talk about how to counter the anti gunners, protest, donate to pro 2A groups. We must do whatever we can to defend our right to keep and bear arms. I am not advocating breaking their laws. I will be using these devices or going featureless. I will not be registering. But surely we should feel free enough to talk about things we can do. Don't loose your 1A too.

[souljahboi]

What we should be talking about is how each of the politicians are being supported and determine how to undermine that support.

[Honoring2AinCA]

Originally Posted by 209Infidel

I say we stop self censoring and calling on moderators to remove posts talking about products that will defeat their bill. Who cares if we talk about franklins fixed magazine, Armaglock, bb2.0. They are going to find out sooner or later, if they don't already. We should be throwing the fact that we already have workarounds in their face. I would rather show them that no matter what unconstitutional bill they pass we will still find a way to exercise our 2A right. So stop being so scared that they are watching our posts and might find out are little "secret". I understand that they still might have time to close these "loopholes" but who cares. Everyone knows their ultimate goal is an all out ban on guns. So us not talking about what to do is not going to make a difference in the long run. Being so passive and not speaking out is what got us in this mess to begin with. So talk about how to counter the anti gunners, protest, donate to pro 2A groups. We must do whatever we can to defend our right to keep and bear arms. I am not advocating breaking their laws. I will be using these devices or going featureless. I will not be registering. But surely we should feel free enough to talk about things we can do. Don't loose your 1A too.

YES!!!!!!! We need to fight back legally and calmly with the "lights" fully on. We are talking about the erosion of lawful acts and Constitutional rights! Now is the time to fight this will the full force of our collective representation, resources and efforts!

[bobbodaggit]

Originally Posted by bwiese

Kes has requested in another thread to be wary of "new products" given recent legislation. I heartily concur
on most, esp from out-of-state vendors who may not "have the full picture".

Some of these products may/may not be useful as workarounds in future ... "depending"....

Remember things have just STARTED; there are a variety of issues here.

Firstly, AS OF NOW YOU DO NOT HAVE "AWs" if you have BB maglock'd guns. This status does NOT trigger
until next year. Right now you do not have to do anything.

However:

1. legislative session not over yet: gut/amend can cause problems THIS YEAR.
2. legislation could be sought next year that could affect AWs being reg'd in 2017.
3. Admin Procedures Act ("APA") compliance is exempted in new AW laws; DOJ BoF could
   "go wild" with "glue-on" regulatory provisions exceeding authority of statutory law.
   [Remember Miss Alison running wild back in 2006, spewing paper all over the place?]
   
   If they do this, it means we have to go into courts (state, for underground regulation; Fed if it
   really escalates into Heller territory) - since Office of Admin Law will be useless here (not that
   they've been that helpful anyway, and generally do roll with agency position unless egregious).

So there are multiple matters we might want to keep quiet for awhile - and then move very very quickly
"while the iron's hot".

I think SOME of you can envision what one or two of them are, and are sensible enough to not jump up &
down and crow about them publicly and get reporters hot & bothered - as that will not help us.

I myself am laughing at some of the conflicts - and the huge "Heller briar patch trap" one of the other laws
helped walk us right into. ;-)

I'm sure other gun orgs are preparing, certainly CA NRA - great! [CA NRA's new lobbyist, I understand, is
also a lawyer.]

I will remind you that CGF's past rolls-in-the-mud & founding were involved in these very matters and will have
to ramp up further if things get crazy beyond our already significant caseload (Pena, Silvester (and
prospective derivatives), more on Texiera, poss. Richards escalation in cooperation w Peruta etc.

Remember that featureless is still featureless and they haven't (and really can't via Heller) ban the most
useful "California flavoring" on many guns: a detachable magazine semiauto centerfire rifle without cosmetics.

Those with semiauto centerfire rifles having a so-called "flash hider" may want to think about converting to a
documented muzzle brake/compensator or thread protector sooner than later for flexibility of (re)configuration.

[From a practical standpoint FHs don't do 95++% of CA shooters much real-world good - and powder plays large
part in flash reduction).

This allows more flexible combinations and also allows mix'n'match quickly without criminalizing configurations -
and/or risking Nguyen-escalated semi-constructive possession worries about separated parts.

For those with "unique" guns that are NOT ARs or similar, and who do not want to reg as AWs, start investigating
NOW 'featureless' setups using Kydex grip wraps (Solar Tactical does a fine one for ARs/AKs). Remember
that this must really block thumb positioning and be stiff enough to NOT BE PUSHED AWAY.


And dammit, don't start throwing out your mags yet either.

How are they exempt from the APA?

[R_Ford]

Bill,
Thanks for you for your good info, especially where donations can be directed to help fight the nut cases in Sacramento and all over California that keep wanting to take away our 2nd Amendment rights. That is helpful for many of us.
I just wanted to say that regardless of the good information you share and the emotions and different feelings between our ranks, we are all on the same side. WE don't want anyone Telling, Taking, Forcing us to do anything more than we already have to, just because they THINK they know better than we do.
Let's keep the fight up as ONE and remember that we are in this together and want the same thing. Keeping the sanctity of our 2nd Amendment Right, and winning the current law cases “We Are Fighting” for in the courts.
Thanks to CalNRA, NAGR, FPC and the others helping to fight these cases for our 2nd Amendment Right.
Fight on brothers & sisters in California, and keep those brain juices flowing....

[HardwoodRods]

Why can't we use the ADA to sue CA over our second amendment rights? Just using the AR pistol as an example. Once CA restricted it's sale to bolt action they effectively made it impossible for someone with a disability, like a veteran who lost an arm in the service to our country, from being able to operate the handgun. Someone with more legal experience than me will tell me why it won't work, but it sounds reasonable on the face IMHO.

[tpat663]

Originally Posted by 209Infidel

I say we stop self censoring and calling on moderators to remove posts talking about products that will defeat their bill. Who cares if we talk about franklins fixed magazine, Armaglock, bb2.0. They are going to find out sooner or later, if they don't already. We should be throwing the fact that we already have workarounds in their face. I would rather show them that no matter what unconstitutional bill they pass we will still find a way to exercise our 2A right. So stop being so scared that they are watching our posts and might find out are little "secret". I understand that they still might have time to close these "loopholes" but who cares. Everyone knows their ultimate goal is an all out ban on guns. So us not talking about what to do is not going to make a difference in the long run. Being so passive and not speaking out is what got us in this mess to begin with. So talk about how to counter the anti gunners, protest, donate to pro 2A groups. We must do whatever we can to defend our right to keep and bear arms. I am not advocating breaking their laws. I will be using these devices or going featureless. I will not be registering. But surely we should feel free enough to talk about things we can do. Don't loose your 1A too.

HELL YES! Preach Brother! We need a good ol fashioned revolution is what we need. Sign me up!

[VaderSpade]

I see 10+ workaround post a day on FaceBook and other sites. We're not hurting anyone but ourselves by not figuring this out.
If they don't get it this cycle they'll get it next cycle. Is kowtowing worth one cycle?

[vince1015]

I gotta agree with you. Do you guys honestly thing the anti 2a guys are just resting on their laurels? Do you think that we know something that these lawyers and lobbiests don't know? It took me 15 minutes to read the law and another few minutes worth of thinking to "figure it out." Any workaround we have is either going to be addressed this year, or next year, or a couple years down the road. Besides what work around are they going to have? Bullet buttons are the same as no bullet buttons and we get a free pass to register as aw's. Their the ones who wrote it, I'm pretty sure they didn't accidentally give us an opening to go RAW.

[Tahoeshooter]

I am calling on everyone on Calguns to start organizing peaceful public mass protests and marches. We need to march on Sacramento and in every city where we can gain media attention. All of the nation’s people concerned with protecting the 2nd Amendment should be organizing or attending marches! Why is this not happening? Enough with childish innuendo and threats, or suggestions of some violent response to the assault on our rights! Take action and start organizing and attending marches and public rallies!

Is it true that gun owners and 2nd Amendment supporters are all just sheep, willing to go along with any and every encroachment of our rights? Are we afraid to miss work for a day? If so, organize marches on weekends! Are we afraid our neighbors or non-gun-owning friends might see us interviewed by CNN or MSNBC and be portrayed as a “gun nut”? Well, if you’re afraid of distain then you should be much more concerned about the physical reality of not being able to protect yourself when law enforcement cannot!

If a movement with a poster boy who was a strong arm convenience store robber that attacked a police officer and got shot to death for it can take to the streets and cause all cameras and talking heads to obsess on them for months, why can’t law abiding citizens who want and need to express their deeply held convictions and heartfelt concerns stand up in equal numbers? There are more of us that are concerned about our rights than there are in that movement! There are more than 50 million gun owners in America, and we all stand to lose our rights regardless of race or creed. Is it because we’re all willing to be run over by self serving misdirecting elitist anti-American politicians and media moguls? If so, we’ve already lost and deserve to have our rights be trampled on!

We must start peaceful protests as soon as possible! Don’t bring firearms, don’t make inflammatory statements, don’t act like idiots, but instead voice your valid opinions and concerns. This is how democracy is supposed to work! African Americans would still be forced to sit in the back of the bus and walk in the gutter if there had been no Civil Rights movement in the 60s, and now it’s our turn!

Personally, I don’t understand why the NRA is not already organizing rallies, but we must band together and make our voices heard, as emails and letters are all too easily deleted and tossed in the dust bin, just as easily as it will be to dispose of our right to bear arms if we don’t stand together and make our concerns known.

Stand up fellow Americans for the rights we know are essential to our safety freedom! Don’t wait until it’s too late like people in Europe and elsewhere did before WWII. We need to stop this pernicious and insidious erosion of our rights now! If you belong to a gun club or local chapter of an NRA action group, bring this subject up and start discussing the possibilities. We need to get going on this folks, because the other side has a big head start and a lot of money behind them!

Please excuse what might be perceived as an overuse of exclamation points, but this is a matter of urgency.

I hope they don’t come to take me away for saying all of this, don’t you?

[Drivedabizness]

Originally Posted by bwiese

Kes has requested in another thread to be wary of "new products" given recent legislation. I heartily concur
on most, esp from out-of-state vendors who may not "have the full picture".

Some of these products may/may not be useful as workarounds in future ... "depending"....

Remember things have just STARTED; there are a variety of issues here.

Firstly, AS OF NOW YOU DO NOT HAVE "AWs" if you have BB maglock'd guns. This status does NOT trigger
until next year. Right now you do not have to do anything.

However:

1. legislative session not over yet: gut/amend can cause problems THIS YEAR.
2. legislation could be sought next year that could affect AWs being reg'd in 2017.
3. Admin Procedures Act ("APA") compliance is exempted in new AW laws; DOJ BoF could
   "go wild" with "glue-on" regulatory provisions exceeding authority of statutory law.
   [Remember Miss Alison running wild back in 2006, spewing paper all over the place?]
   
   If they do this, it means we have to go into courts (state, for underground regulation; Fed if it
   really escalates into Heller territory) - since Office of Admin Law will be useless here (not that
   they've been that helpful anyway, and generally do roll with agency position unless egregious).

So there are multiple matters we might want to keep quiet for awhile - and then move very very quickly
"while the iron's hot".

I think SOME of you can envision what one or two of them are, and are sensible enough to not jump up &
down and crow about them publicly and get reporters hot & bothered - as that will not help us.

I myself am laughing at some of the conflicts - and the huge "Heller briar patch trap" one of the other laws
helped walk us right into. ;-)

I'm sure other gun orgs are preparing, certainly CA NRA - great! [CA NRA's new lobbyist, I understand, is
also a lawyer.]

I will remind you that CGF's past rolls-in-the-mud & founding were involved in these very matters and will have
to ramp up further if things get crazy beyond our already significant caseload (Pena, Silvester (and
prospective derivatives), more on Texiera, poss. Richards escalation in cooperation w Peruta etc.

Remember that featureless is still featureless and they haven't (and really can't via Heller) ban the most
useful "California flavoring" on many guns: a detachable magazine semiauto centerfire rifle without cosmetics.

Those with semiauto centerfire rifles having a so-called "flash hider" may want to think about converting to a
documented muzzle brake/compensator or thread protector sooner than later for flexibility of (re)configuration.

[From a practical standpoint FHs don't do 95++% of CA shooters much real-world good - and powder plays large
part in flash reduction).

This allows more flexible combinations and also allows mix'n'match quickly without criminalizing configurations -
and/or risking Nguyen-escalated semi-constructive possession worries about separated parts.

For those with "unique" guns that are NOT ARs or similar, and who do not want to reg as AWs, start investigating
NOW 'featureless' setups using Kydex grip wraps (Solar Tactical does a fine one for ARs/AKs). Remember
that this must really block thumb positioning and be stiff enough to NOT BE PUSHED AWAY.


And dammit, don't start throwing out your mags yet either.

Bill - see emphasis above to your OP. This would seem to be one of the most glaring 14A infringements yet and a direct FU to MacDonald. Since when can the Legislature pass anything that says "if we're shoving it up their pooper on issue X, we don't have to go by the rules"????

[Undertaker]

Tahoeshooter post 33. I like the 1st couple of sentences in your post. It's kind of hard to get a bunch of people to travel a sizable distance on the same day for a protest. What if we come up with an initiative and get each of our local cities to adopt it. Something along the lines of this city will not enforce any unconstitutional gun laws. There have been a few Sheriff's state that and Sheriff Mims from Fresno just got a nasty voice mail from Gov Brown in regards to her stance on the new gun laws. I bet that we, I and some other locals, could get our city council to help us. That way we would all be using the same format with people in high places that we arw personal friends with. I know 4 out of our 6 are progun.

[1681]

[papa zulu]

The Calif legislative session is over. No new additions to the new AW law. Can we start talking about possible (emphasis on possible) workarounds now?

[-hanko]

Originally Posted by papa zulu

The Calif legislative session is over. No new additions to the new AW law. Can we start talking about possible (emphasis on possible) workarounds now?

Yes.

[Whiterabbit]

I'll say no. Because the regulatory process for these laws have just started (plagarized from FPC email)

So, if you have an idea for how you want to skirt registration via compliance, pre-reg for X Y and Z benefit, etc, it might still have a chance to be written out via regulation.

[VaderSpade]

We can NEVER talk about it. Don't you know they will pass a law next year!

[papa zulu]

Originally Posted by Whiterabbit

I'll say no. Because the regulatory process for these laws have just started (plagarized from FPC email)

So, if you have an idea for how you want to skirt registration via compliance, pre-reg for X Y and Z benefit, etc, it might still have a chance to be written out via regulation.

Originally Posted by VaderSpade

We can NEVER talk about it. Don't you know they will pass a law next year!

I respect and understand the sentiments behind each of the above opinions. But as a reality check: Does anyone here really believe that not talking about possible workarounds here will somehow deprive the opposition from learning as much as they want about possible workarounds?

This forum, for all it's worth, is hardly the only repository on this issue. By not talking about it, we're only depriving ourselves with possible resources to avoid stupid or unforeseen mistakes once the law takes effect.

The legislators who want to find out about workarounds are going to find out regardless of what is said or not said here.

Them's my $.02.