Condor lead bullet scam? Question.

[rm1911]

Originally Posted by bigboarstopper

Some additional interesting information about how those who are trying to save the condor are actually hurting their own cause.

Like I said in a previous post, my ranch is right in the middle of the condor zone. There was an event that happend about ten years ago that turned a large number of the locals against the people responsible for the condor project. Up until that time the relationships between the landowners and the condor people was cordial. The lead ban pissed a lot of people off. Copper was initially almost impossible to find. It was also crazy expensive. If you could find a box of copper you were paying close to 70$ a box. The general consensus (something I definitely agree with) was that copper often failed to expand or transferred energy to the intended animal resulting in more lost animals in the field. Regardless, non lead compliance was extremely high (well above the 90%+ percentile) yet lead levels in condors remained high so hunters were continued to be blamed regardless that evidence lead poisoning exposure statistics were beginning to point twards “microtrash” instead of lead projectiles. Hunters and landowners despite their compliance were the enemy.

But the “event” that pushed relations between the landowners and the condor people furthest apart was when a young child was killed in a hit and run. A child had been hit by a car and killed close to my ranch. The whole community got together and tried to raise funds for the family to bury the child and create a reward for information leading to the arrest of the person responsible. The small community quickly raised a few thousand dollars and put up a homemade billboard sign stating the reward for justice. Right around the same time a condor was shot by some knucklehead and was found fatally injured. Within a few days there was a giant billboard right next to the billboard created for the child. This billboard offered 40,000$ for information leading to the arrest of the person responsible for shooting the condor. The sign was not only right next to the billboard for the child but the reward for the condor was twice the amount the community was able to raise for the murdered child. The locals burned the condor sign to the ground.

On a related note, many many years ago when I was living up in NorCal, this was shortly after the mountain lion hunting ban, a lady was jogging out of doors and was killed by a mountain lion. Lady had a small child. A fund was set up for the kid. DFG or whomever went after the lion and caught it. Turned out it was a female with a litter. So some enviro wackos set up a fund for the lion kittens. I don’t imagine you need to ask which one raised way more money.

I shoulda known back then this state was headed into the abyss. That was back in the early 90’s. This state is no longer heading towards the abyss. It’s now past tense, as in long since arrived.

[WMG]

Originally Posted by JackEllis

As a reloader, I've exposed myself to lead from the primers and once-fired cases I use. My blood pressure has also gone up since I started reloading. I should know in the next few days whether there *might* be a relationship between higher blood pressure and lead exposure when blood test results come back.

I would be interested in the findings , if you wouldn't mind.

[WMG]

And thanks for the replies so far.
When the warden mentioned the cost of lead free being no different ......it was not so much that it would affect me a lot "in my case" , it was more of the "spin" he was giving the whole thing I did not like.
Spinning one thing , leads me to believe he would spin other things.
The majority if not all of the Eagles are located by either lakes or streams , and the push to ban lead in fishing "sinkers" has been hanging around for a long time.
We also got into the subsidizing windmill business some time back.
You wave short term money under some noses and things move very quick.
Not that I don't believe something must be done and we must look at alternatives ..... but that's another topic.
The reason I mention the wind mills is , I do a far amount of off roading and in some of those places I have encountered what seemed to be college kids earning extra money by counting the dead hawks/birds and flight paths of these birds around these wind mills.
So far , every one of these kids collecting a pay check that I have come across was asleep in their vehicle at the time.
Some even have brought their sleeping bag with them.
I would stop and check on these people because at first , I figured they were broke down , homeless , sick , whatever.
But it seems they get paid for napping in the woods and then making up a report about it.
Not a real good way to find out the truth I thought at the time......

[God Bless America]

Originally Posted by WMG

I would be interested in the findings , if you wouldn't mind.

I shoot and reload and have no appreciable lead in my blood.

[oldyeller]

I have been reloading, casting bullets, eating big game shot with lead, fishing with lead, (biting split shot when i was a kid) and my blood test came back fine. No elevated lead levels

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[CVShooter]

Interesting thread. I don't know much at all about the science or the politics behind the lead ban. But I know that it's a large-scale solution to a small-scale problem (even if ill-conceived). The small bits of literature I read stated that the issue of lead bullets had more to do with the high amounts of fragmentation from high-velocity rounds that push somewhere around or over 3k fps. That part has some validity, I think. Several years ago, I borrowed a .243 from a friend and took a doe at about 130 yards (out of state). That little bullet failed to exit and was nowhere to be found once we opened her up. It looked like blood and gut soup mixed with lead sand.

Older, lower-velocity cartridges, like the venerable 30-30, don't usually fragment the same way, though. A 170 gr. 30-30 tends to just punch on through. So, in my opinion, they shouldn't be subject to the lead ban (as if my opinion counted for anything in politics). But, whether because politicians hate hunters or because game wardens don't want even more complicated regs to enforce, all bullets were treated the same. And the 30-30 went from a decent 150 yard gun that could reach out to almost 200 just fine, to a max 100 yard brush gun only. Copper needs more velocity to expand and the 30-30 is just barely up to the task and that only at closer ranges. With that bit of legislation, my old pre-64s were relegated to the back of the gun safe & I had to go out and buy a new deer rifle. I like my new rifle. But I'm still bitter about the legislated obsolescence of a great deer round.

All that still assumes that they were right about lead bullets being a problem, which I still doubt.

On a side note, my last CCW instructor, who works with the local PD & SO, actually recommended that all folks use lead-free defensive ammo when carrying. His reason was to reduce the risk of further civil litigation for using lead bullets when lead-free is available. I think that's overkill (no pun intended). But it made me wonder if there is a general cultural shift away from lead ammo here in CA. As rm1911 stated above and as psychologists have been saying for decades, we get an idea in our heads & start finding reasons to justify or confirm what we already think. Politicians and bureaucrats who think they're doing "the Lord's work" are especially prone to this kind of mental bias.

[Spyder]

Originally Posted by CVShooter

On a side note, my last CCW instructor, who works with the local PD & SO, actually recommended that all folks use lead-free defensive ammo when carrying. His reason was to reduce the risk of further civil litigation for using lead bullets when lead-free is available.

Your last CCW instructor should quit instructing and consider never going to law school or giving legal advice ever again.

[bigboarstopper]

Another question to be raised about the whole condor issue is if the condor cannot survive on its own in the modern world should we just let it go extinct.

In much of the literature biologist state that no matter how much we help the condor it is a species that will never sustain itself without the help of man. At what point do we throw the towel in? If no ammount of money and resources will get the condor to a self sustaing point what is the purpose of continuing? This is the conundrum that has not been awknowleged that will forever turn the condor into a draining bureaucracy. Decisions and end goals need to be made. If there is no end goal then there is no purpose other than to spend money on a pointless endeavor

[LowThudd]

Or at the very least, maybe they can ONLY survive in captivity.

I don't think anyone actually wants them to go extinct, but they are trying their hardest to do so. Eating trash(possibly even lead fishing weights lol), hitting wind turbines, being cooked by the mojave solar still etc.

[Drivedabizness]

OP - The only "science" linking condor mortality with lead hunting bullets is "junk" science - as others have stated.

One real problem is the population is too small to have a big enough gene pool to successfully replicate.

As others have mentioned, there are no longer huge carcasses for them to feed on.

Non-lead ammo is WAY expensive and lacks some desirable properties in terms of terminal performance on game (e.g. lack of expansion)

CA stopped any pretense of managing game populations about 40 years ago. We haven't had a doe hunt since right after Bambi came out in theaters and the last statewide deer study was in the 70's. There is very little management of mountain lions (whose population has more than doubled while the deer herd is 1/4 what it used to be). Feel lucky you live in PA.

[CVShooter]

Originally Posted by bigboarstopper

Another question to be raised about the whole condor issue is if the condor cannot survive on its own in the modern world should we just let it go extinct.

In much of the literature biologist state that no matter how much we help the condor it is a species that will never sustain itself without the help of man.

Guess somebody needs to find a way to make the condor a commercially-viable species. We prop up a bunch of different species that could never survive without our help. Alas, the condor isn't as cuddly or tasty as any of those other animals. Quite the contrary, I'd imagine.

I consider myself a proud environmental wacko AND hunter but I'm mostly in agreement on the condor thing. Seems like the damage has been done.

I think other wackos might argue that we shouldn't value a species based on it's importance to US. After all, we're just one species among many on this planet. On that point, I can mostly agree. But, the practical part of me knows there's only so much we can control so if it can't survive with a few basic protections in place, then we need to let it go and figure out how best to minimize our damage elsewhere. We're 7 billion and growing. To think we're going to keep this up without a growing list of collateral damage is pretty naive. Eventually, our species will also be extinct and replaced by others. If I'm among the last living humans, I'll be damned if I'm going to live out my days being helped out by a bunch of lab rats. I'd rather die free & with dignity than live in captivity and at the mercy of a lab intern. Might as well give the condor the same respect.

[JackEllis]

I waded into this discussion and ended up learning a lot more than I'd bargained for (no sarcasm intended).

Part of the problem may stem from the fact that TV shows depict animals as friendly, cuddly creatures. They rarely show animals being hunted by other animals and if they do, there aren't any closeups of lions feeding on other game. They also don't show animals starving to death and photos of the havoc caused by poachers are also taboo.

Consequently the public has an incomplete picture of what life is like in the wild. They also have a short time horizon of about 100 years, when in fact evolution and geology play out over millions of years (or tens of thousands of lifetimes). All of which means we can't accept the fact that most species do, in fact, go extinct with or without the help of mankind.

I'm still switching over to lead-free ammo for hunting

[oldyeller]

Aprently we all are

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[deckhandmike]

Turkey vultures have a healthy population. This alone should tell you that eating wounded game isn't what's killing the condors. Condors are dumb and eat trash. That's why they die with trace elements of metal.

[Tanner68]

The abundance of micro trash, and the condors propensity to injest it as if it were bone fragments, is one of their biggest problems.

The other big problem is a loss of habitat and dead big animals to eat. The can't feast on dead sea mammals on the beach, or dead elk out in the central valley anymore. And they can't make a living eating smaller stuff. It's not their niche.

Even if we all stop shooting lead, the condors have big problems.

[WMG]

Originally Posted by oldyeller

I have been reloading, casting bullets, eating big game shot with lead, fishing with lead, (biting split shot when i was a kid) and my blood test came back fine. No elevated lead levels

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Same here ... except for the part about being tested and in recent history have been wondering about it for no other real reason other than
having a high blood pressure that is very difficult to manage and began wondering if those things have played or are playing a part in that.

[WMG]

Originally Posted by Drivedabizness

As others have mentioned, there are no longer huge carcasses for them to feed on.

And that's what has me wondering what the PA lead free hippies are thinking our few Eagles are eating and since located near water and always seen hunting fish .............. are they thinking we shoot fish?

[oldyeller]

Originally Posted by WMG

Same here ... except for the part about being tested and in recent history have been wondering about it for no other real reason other than
having a high blood pressure that is very difficult to manage and began wondering if those things have played or are playing a part in that.

My blood pressure is fine too so far

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[deckhandmike]

Originally Posted by Drivedabizness

As others have mentioned, there are no longer huge carcasses for them to feed on.

I live in the condor range and there are dead deer every 2-3 miles on highway 1 and constant, insanely high amounts of marine life washed up on empty beaches. Sea lions, elephant seals, whales etc. It's not a food source/habitat issue. These birds are just dumb and not effective eaters.

[Spyder]

Originally Posted by deckhandmike

Condors are dumb and eat trash. That's why they die with trace elements of metal.

Wasn't at least one of them confirmed to have died from eating paint chips of lead based paint?

[Garand1911]

The condors can not survive on their own, the state of Kalif provides food for them. They are the states pet, they probably get their own EBT cards.

The condors are scavengers and PICKY eaters, they only eat FRESH kills, wont eat anything rotten. So they are too lazy to kill and are complete snobs at what they are willing to eat, guess what? Yer gonna go extinct!

The state BS data on condors and lead don't take into account natural sources of lead.

[WMG]

Originally Posted by oldyeller

My blood pressure is fine too so far

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Mine is very hard to control , meds have not cut it and I won't do beta blockers.
Diet didn't do a darn thing ... nothing.
The only thing to have helped so far is a rigorous workout and if I lay off that for a second it doesn't take near as long to climb back up.
So I was wondering if maybe it was lead ............. I suppose I should have that looked at.

[WMG]

Originally Posted by Spyder

Wasn't at least one of them confirmed to have died from eating paint chips of lead based paint?

If they ate lead paint chips , you'd think they would be open to more types of food.
The Eagles in PA are summed up "like pets" like someone said of the Condors.
We PA hunters pay a high price to turn ring neck pheasants loose that don't survive the winter and the coyotes have just torn to shreds.
It's our little coyote feeding program we have???

[Dnele928]

One other aspect is: they are big birds, need big food. They live near the coastal areas, and would scavenge large sea life, as noted by deckhandmike. But when a whale or other large sea mammal would wash up on a beach, then commence to stink - what’s the first thing people do? Haul it out to sea to keep it off the beach. So, people remove their food source and near extinction follows...whooda thunk.

Then...blame their demise on hunters (conservatives), then start banning their hunting supplies/ammo.

This is the world we live in...idiocracy.

[Poohgyrr]

Originally Posted by Spyder

Wasn't at least one of them confirmed to have died from eating paint chips of lead based paint?

They eat trash, could be. And if we use that line of reason (as used by anti lead bullet folks):

“At least one adult drove while drunk and killed a whole family. We are making round tires illegal to prevent everyone from doing this, even though everyone doesn’t drive drunk and kill folks.”


These politicians and special interest groups pushing lead free ammo are the same folks we’ve caught being deceptive and playing games with other public issues. The condor/ lead bullet research could not be duplicated and the researchers refused honest discussions to clarify this problem. It’s a scam.

[Poohgyrr]

Originally Posted by JackEllis

If kids can get lead poisoning from eating paint chips that have lead in them, adults can get lead poisoning from eating game that's full of lead particles from a bullet that partially disintegrates as it creates a wound channel.

Whether it affects birds is another story. I haven't read the studies (yet) but I think the thesis is credible to the extent scavengers eat parts of a carcass or gut pile that have been contaminated with lead particles from a disintegrating bullet.

Lead bullets are still legal in California for target shooting. For hunting, the higher cost of copper ammo is insignificant...

If adults get lead poisoning from wound channels, then people around the world must be dying, including our ancestors right here in the USA. Oh yeah. Hasn’t happened. Not to mention skin exposure by fishermen, worldwide. And the guy who balances our car tires.

And the gut pile & carcass “theory” is part of the “research” they couldn’t discuss
or repeat.

Target shooting is unrelated to what is being discussed and a distraction technique at best.

“Insignificant” is not a word I’d use to describe the finances of others. Not everyone can afford to travel somewhere else to put food on the dinner table. A hunter should already understand that.