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Rimfire Firearms .22, .17 and other Rimfire Handguns and Rifles

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Old 10-22-2018, 3:17 PM
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ARFrog ARFrog is offline
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Default Help with Winchester 1890 barrel markings

As mentioned in another thread, I have the opportunity to purchase a Winchester 1890 in 22 WRF. I have determined based on serial number that it was made in 1923. My question has to do with trying to determine if the barrel has been replaced or might be original. Any help from knowledgeable individuals - Trapp55 or others - would be appreciated.

The receiver and barrel both have circled WP proof marks, which if I understand correctly signify assembly having been done at the Winchester factory:

barrel proofs.jpg

I do not note any other proofs - like a circle P.

The barrel is marked as a mod 1890:

barrel label.jpg

My question has to do with do these go together as original? It is my understanding, based on other Internet info, that Winchester started marking the barrels as "mod 90" in 1919. If this is correct, would it be likely that the barrel from 4 years later would still be marked "mod 1890" or is it more likely that the rifle was sent back to the factory for re-barreling? If it is the later, would there be any other proof marking?

The only other relevant info is that the barrel appears in slightly better shape wear wise than the finish on the receiver - neither are bad but the barrel has less fine surface wear/scratches.

I appreciate anyone's help here.
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Old 11-10-2018, 10:26 AM
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Default

For those of you who may have read my previous posting, other than some off-forum comments from Trapp55, I did not get any direction one way or the other regarding my barrel question.

Given that the unresolved question was “bugging me”, I looked into it further and offer the following information in the hopes that it will help other collectors who might find themselves in the same position that I did with what ultimately was a “transitional firearm” of earlier origin than thought…

To restate the problem, I was trying to figure out if a particular Winchester 1890 rifle was original or if there were possible post production changes that were made, which would correspondingly effect value of the rifle and my offering price on it.

The Winchester 1890 rifle I was looking at had a serial number of 665,XXX. Conventional Internet wisdom from dating examples such as:

https://gun-data.com/winchester_Model_1890.htm

http://oldguns.net/sn_php/windateslookup.php

http://guncollectionsonline.com/winchester1890.htm

yielded a manufacture date of 1923 for this rifle.

Now it is known that Winchester instituted a branding change in about April 1919 where the “mod. 1890” barrel branding was changed to “mod. 90.”
My issue was that this rifle had a “mod 1890” barrel on what I thought was a rifle manufactured in 1923 and I questioned whether the barrel might have been changed or switched out at some point or if production lagged that far behind parts accumulation.

In looking for resolution for this question, I came across the website for the Cody Firearms Museum in Cody, Wyoming. In corresponding with one of the librarian/assistant curators I learned the following information:

1.) Changes in the branding took place over time - they were not immediately started and the old marking immediately discontinued. Winchester always used the old parts (which were already marked with the old marking) to avoid waste

2.) The guns were not always made in consecutive serial number order

3.) The Serial Number Application list from the Winchester Polishing Room records are more accurate than the production list or sales production lists in dating the manufacture of these rifles mainly because the guns were not made in consecutive serial number order, as previously stated

I further found out that the Serial Number Application list (aka SNA list) could be found in the back of the Blue Book of Gun Values or you could go to websites such as the following to get more accurate information for dates on your particular rife based on this SNA list data:

a.) The Winchester Arms company – When was Your Winchester Made?

winchester.jpg

https://winchestercollector.org/dates/

b.) From the NRA Museum: serialization – date of manufacture

http://www.nramuseum.org/gun-info-re...blue-book.aspx

Based on this information, the rifle I was looking at was made in 1920 and not the previously indicated 1923. So according to this information and to the Cody librarian/assistant curator “Yes, it is possible and in this case correct” that the “mod. 1890” barrel could be on a rifle with this serial number.

Other information learned in this process:

- additional interesting and historical information about Winchester serialization and the SNA lists can be found on pages 2390 through 2392 and page2393 of the excerpted NRA Museum link above

- that “WP” proofmarks did not indicate assembly at the factory. It simply indicated that the barrel and/or receiver passed Winchester’s proof test to be able to handle the forces exerted by the fired cartridges of the caliber designated on the rifle. In some cases, such as a rifle made prior to the use of the Winchester proof mark (around serial number 430,000, or roughly 1909) and that is now showing proof marks, the proofs in this instance may offer evidence that the rifle was returned to the factory and re-barreled or other post production work was done by others


I hope this information may be of help in your current collection or future acqusitions… At any rate, it seems to have solved and provided an answer to what was bugging me and given some interesting and educational “bunny trails” to follow up on.
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