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  #41  
Old 03-05-2016, 8:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hambam105 View Post

Inventing rationalizations on the QC levels on WWB ammo isn't going to return your M36 to the reliability specifications the pistol had before leaving the factory.
This
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  #42  
Old 03-05-2016, 6:37 PM
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OK guys, what do you think, should I put the old springs back in?

Seems to me I'm doing fine with "the good stuff", and have an acceptable FTF rate with the cheaper ammo.

Previous results with kit installed (in the order I fired them):
FTF ...... Brand of .38 Special
0/50 ..... Winchester white box (purchased 8/2015)
0/40 ..... Federal Hydra-Shok
3/100 ... Winchester white box (purchased 2/2016)
0/50 ..... Federal American Eagle

Today's results (in the order I fired them):
FTF ..... Brand of .38 Special
0/50 .... Remington UMC
1/50 .... Magtech
1/50 .... Remington Target
1/50 .... Winchester Train & Defend [T]
0/20 .... Winchester Train & Defend [D]
0/25 .... Hornady Custom XTP

After 245 trigger pulls today, my G.I. Joe Kung-Fu Grip (LeftHand) certainly feels ready to deal with the old heavy trigger pull weight. But I'll keep testing. This is a new gun with a new Apex kit, thoroughly cleaned and oiled after each trip to the range.

It's hard to see in these photos, but the primers that didn't fire are seated ever-so-slightly deeper into their cases:









That last one's a little blurry, sorry, but you get the idea. Would you agree this an acceptable failure rate for cheap ammo? I've had no failures on the more expensive rounds I'd use when I need to depend on a gun, any gun. What do you say?
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Last edited by LeftHand-Fu; 03-30-2016 at 8:38 AM.. Reason: Had the wrong year llisted for one of my WWB purchases.
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  #43  
Old 03-05-2016, 8:14 PM
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LeftHand-Fu
Post #17, the picture of the far right WWB brass shell certainly looks to me like a pierced primer. No matter what caused it, you need to closely inspect the face of the firing pin with a magnifying glass or similar. Pierced primers will cause etching on the firing pin face (the very tip). It can reduce the pins overall length just slightly, but at the same time can cause numerous ignition failures (no matter what brand ammo) as well as MORE pierced primers. It happened to me when shooting an AR-15. After the first primer was pierced, the tip of the firing pin looked looked the surface of the moon from being etched with hot primer gasses. Take a close look. I think you'll be surprised at what you see.
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  #44  
Old 03-05-2016, 8:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deguello View Post
LeftHand-Fu
Post #17, the picture of the far right WWB brass shell certainly looks to me like a pierced primer. No matter what caused it, you need to closely inspect the face of the firing pin with a magnifying glass or similar. Pierced primers will cause etching on the firing pin face (the very tip). It can reduce the pins overall length just slightly, but at the same time can cause numerous ignition failures (no matter what brand ammo) as well as MORE pierced primers. It happened to me when shooting an AR-15. After the first primer was pierced, the tip of the firing pin looked looked the surface of the moon from being etched with hot primer gasses. Take a close look. I think you'll be surprised at what you see.
Thanks, you're right, the primer was pierced the second time I hit that one. After I saw that blackened dimple, I stopped trying to fire these if they failed the first time. The Winchester primer was seated a bit too far out, and the Apex replacement firing pin is also a little longer than the original. Yet another reason to go back to the original pin and springs, IMHO. I'll take a closer look at the firing pin after I clean her up.
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  #45  
Old 03-07-2016, 12:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deguello View Post
LeftHand-Fu
Post #17, the picture of the far right WWB brass shell certainly looks to me like a pierced primer. No matter what caused it, you need to closely inspect the face of the firing pin with a magnifying glass or similar. Pierced primers will cause etching on the firing pin face (the very tip). It can reduce the pins overall length just slightly, but at the same time can cause numerous ignition failures (no matter what brand ammo) as well as MORE pierced primers. It happened to me when shooting an AR-15. After the first primer was pierced, the tip of the firing pin looked looked the surface of the moon from being etched with hot primer gasses. Take a close look. I think you'll be surprised at what you see.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeftHand-Fu View Post
Thanks, you're right, the primer was pierced the second time I hit that one. After I saw that blackened dimple, I stopped trying to fire these if they failed the first time. The Winchester primer was seated a bit too far out, and the Apex replacement firing pin is also a little longer than the original. Yet another reason to go back to the original pin and springs, IMHO. I'll take a closer look at the firing pin after I clean her up.
I can't get a good picture of it, but the firing pin looked OK after I cleaned it up and inspected carefully last night.

I think for my next test I'm going to fire the same types of failed ammo through my LCR-357. If that gets the same failure rate then I won't bother putting the old springs and pin back in the Model 36.

I normally only shoot the better stuff through the snubbies, and only a small box or two at a time. Trying out these new springs has been interesting...and expensive.
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  #46  
Old 03-26-2016, 8:04 AM
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Still getting good results with good SD ammo! I haven't gotten around to testing the cheaper stuff like Win white box in other guns yet — this was expensive enough — but I did not get a single FTF with the following:

FTF ...... Brand of .38 Special
0/25 ..... Hornady Custom XTP
0/60 ..... Federal Hydra-Shok

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  #47  
Old 05-18-2016, 5:55 PM
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I've made a few more trips to the range to shoot the modified Model 36 gun alongside a Ruger LCR-357, a Smith 586, and an unmodified Smith 36, and the results have been as expected: good SD ammo has been reliable in the modified gun, and target ammo is OK in the others. The longer pull on the LCR makes me shoot lower on the bull and snake my way back up to the bullseye, now that I'm more used to the Smiths...

...but also I shoot that 4" Smith waaay better after spending time with a few snubnoses.



This evening I shot my modified Model 36 side-by-side with the UNmodified Model 36. The unmodified gun has trigger pull weight of 13.5 lbs — two pounds heavier than the first one before I put in the spring kit! Results:

* In _both_ guns I got one failure to fire: the same one round of Cor Bon DPX, my most expensive SD ammo yet! That's disappointing.

* In the 9.5 lbs DA snub, still no failures of other SD ammo: Hornady Critical Defense FTX this time. (It was Hornady Custom XTP and Federal Hydra-Shock on previous trips.)

* In the 13.5 lbs DA snub, as usual no failures of target ammo: Remington Target or Winchester white box. (I've also had no problems with those in my unmodified Smith 586 or Ruger LCR on recent trips.)

It's been like that every trip. Accuracy and endurance were of course compromised with the heavier snubnose trigger, so I will probably put a spring kit in that one too.

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  #48  
Old 05-19-2016, 2:55 PM
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I shot PPC back in the 1980s and "Bullseye" spring kits was a popular way to get an inexpensive trigger job. Federal had the softest primers so that was the preferred primer to reload your match ammo with.

I found your research very noteworthy and thank you for sharing.
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  #49  
Old 05-19-2016, 3:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Win231 View Post
After extensive design & testing, the factory decides on a trigger that's 100% reliable. Any changes compromise reliability. That's why such modifications are suitable for recreational guns; not defensive guns.
I disagree. After extensive design & testing, the factory decides on a trigger that is: (1) inexpensive to manufacture; and (2) satisfies some subjective, unquantifiable, measure of safety.

If reliability were a legitimate criteria, S&W could go back to making revolvers with actions like they had before the locks an other crapola they added destroyed their crisp, low effort, reliability.
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  #50  
Old 05-30-2016, 12:37 PM
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"Thank you for your support." -OP

I've gone ahead and installed another Apex spring kit, into that second Model 36 I was testing above. The pull weight is now 9.5 pounds, and I am confident that good quality SD ammo with Federal primers or equivalent will always go bang in this gun.

Once again per the instructions I polished only the rebound slide (with fine 800 grit sandpaper), and did nothing else but replace three springs and the firing pin along with some cleaning and oiling. Next up: painting the front sight, then back to the range. Thanks again for your comments.
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  #51  
Old 08-12-2016, 3:32 PM
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Update: the second re-springed Model 36 performed flawlessly on its first time out: 50 rounds of Winchester white box, 100 rounds of Hornady Custom XTP, no failures.
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