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View Poll Results: Safe to have photographer downrange as portrayed in the video?
Yes 19 8.92%
No 194 91.08%
Voters: 213. You may not vote on this poll

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  #41  
Old 02-12-2012, 3:16 PM
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LUNACY! As a photographer who has shot many professional firearms instructors for all print and media over the years, not once has anything like this ever been considered, EVER! And, my photos have come out well enough to be used in print without putting anyone unnecessarily at risk.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZombieTactics View Post
I'd stand or sit downrange in a similar position if Jay were the shooter, as well as a few other people I know....."safety" in this sense is relative to the persons involved.
This is just a bad idea and should not be promoted in anyway. I see more and more people taking cameras to classes and would hate for anyone to be influenced by this stupidity. We constantly use disclaimers that say "professionals on a closed course. Do not attempt." and clearly these are students on a firing line (no matter what level) that is not set up for photography session with even minimal safeguards. Anyone who has done enough classes like these knows anything can and will happen such as ND's, Frag, etc. So its just a matter of "when" and not a question of "if" something will go wrong. There is nothing professional or safe about this period.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZombieTactics View Post
I also think people don't know how common this kind of thing is among action photographers. A lot of mythology exists about the capabilities of "remote camera systems". If you know what is possible, what equipment does it, and what to look for (as well as what things cost to rent), you can readily conclude this for yourself.
Clearly you have no idea what you are talking about what so ever. And if you do then you are making misleading statements to justify your response to this thread. Either way I find it disturbing. If there is some amateur photographers aspiring to get a great shot and think this is way to do it you may just end up dead wrong. Contrary to the quote above, there are many after market remote shutter options for your camera. It only requires a trip to your local camera store or an amazon search to see the many moderately priced remote shutters for most basic consumer DSLRs in the market. So, if you must get the shot of people shooting at you, please go that route. Your camera can always be fixed or replaced.
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  #42  
Old 02-12-2012, 3:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markitzero View Post
... Clearly you have no idea what you are talking about what so ever. ...
Well, when I observe certain skaky, handheld tracking shots which are clearly from fixed positions, and have a certain depth of field, etc ... I can make a lot of reasonable conclusions about where the cameraman is standing. When that muzzle points in his direction in such a shot ... I simply observe that it's pointing in his direction.

Given your claimed expertise, I'd love to know how to set up shots like that on a decent budget with remote equipment.
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Last edited by ZombieTactics; 02-12-2012 at 3:30 PM..
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  #43  
Old 02-12-2012, 3:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZombieTactics View Post
I'd love to know how to set up shots like that on a decent budget with remote equipment.
Anyone claiming to be a photographer should already have the equipment to setup that shot, particularly the shot in the video.
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  #44  
Old 02-12-2012, 3:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toyman321 View Post
Anyone claiming to be a photographer should already have the equipment to setup that shot, ...
You aren't paying attention ... I mentioned what are clearly shaky, handheld tracking shots, where the cameraman is pivoting and tracking the shooter. My question was sincere.

Here's a link to the Todd Jarrett footage I mentioned earlier: CLICK HERE How many will be just as critical of Todd shooting steel at a range of inches (instead of the recommend 10 yard minimum), not mounted at an angle, with a cameraman obviously in the line of possible ricochets at fairly close distance?
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Last edited by ZombieTactics; 02-12-2012 at 3:40 PM..
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  #45  
Old 02-12-2012, 3:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZombieTactics View Post
I'd stand or sit downrange in a similar position if Jay were the shooter, as well as a few other people I know. I'd not do so for just anyone by a long stretch. I make no general recommendations for anyone else. As stated, I think "safety" in this sense is relative to the persons involved.
The shooter may impact the level of risk, but under no circumstances, and regardless of shooter, would this action ever be safe. Accidents, by definition, are actions outside of a person's control. Because of this, it is never safe to be downrange from someone shooting a gun without a significant level of steel or dirt between you and the shooter.

I seriously can't believe that you are advocating this in any form. Infinitely so if you are any kind of instructor.

I do appreciate your original post, for the fact that it informs me that Mr. Gibson is too stupid to ever get my money or recommendation.
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Last edited by Gryff; 02-12-2012 at 3:39 PM..
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  #46  
Old 02-12-2012, 3:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZombieTactics View Post
Given your claimed expertise, I'd love to know how to set up shots like that on a decent budget with remote equipment.

http://www.nikonusa.com/Nikon-Produc...RatingsReviews

http://www.amazon.com/Wireless-Shutt.../dp/B002N65P7W

Basic camera and tripod. There you go. No one gets hurt or killed by stupidity.
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  #47  
Old 02-12-2012, 3:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ramzar View Post
In your opinion, do you consider it safe to have the photographer downrange next to the targets that students are shooting at as portrayed in this video?
NO.
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  #48  
Old 02-12-2012, 3:42 PM
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Geez... Arguing 'For' someone being down range of a shooter. Only on Calguns...
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  #49  
Old 02-12-2012, 3:45 PM
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Can’t somebody do something?!?!?!?!
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  #50  
Old 02-12-2012, 3:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NSR500 View Post
Geez... Arguing 'For' someone being down range of a shooter. Only on Calguns...
+1,000,000,000,000,000

Some people seriously deluded.
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  #51  
Old 02-12-2012, 3:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagearms View Post
http://www.nikonusa.com/Nikon-Produc...RatingsReviews

http://www.amazon.com/Wireless-Shutt.../dp/B002N65P7W

Basic camera and tripod. There you go. No one gets hurt or killed by stupidity.
OK is everyone lacking basic language skills? I clearly noted shaky, handheld tracking shots ... how does a remote shutter release accomplish that Einstein?
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  #52  
Old 02-12-2012, 3:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZombieTactics View Post
You aren't paying attention ... I mentioned what are clearly shaky, handheld tracking shots, where the cameraman is pivoting and tracking the shooter. My question was sincere.

Here's a link to the Todd Jarrett footage I mentioned earlier: CLICK HERE How many will be just as critical of Todd shooting steel at a range of inches (instead of the recommend 10 yard minimum), not mounted at an angle, with a cameraman obviously in the line of possible ricochets at fairly close distance?
I watched the whole video, I never once saw an angle of fire on the camera man that was even remotely as dangerous as the video in the OP's post. There are video arms, rigs, remote screens, cranes etc that can be used to filming shots like that that can be rented instead of purchased if budgets are tight. It also isn't that hard (or relatively expensive) to build a stabilized video crane.

On an unrelated note to that video, if I were setting up the shot that is in the OP's video I'd be setup on a tripod, with a remote with several reflectors on my subject. He is shooting while the sun is high in the sky creating harsh shadows on the underside and to the cameras right of his subjects. Without reflectors or some other secondary light source I can guarantee his shots were mediocre at best.
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  #53  
Old 02-12-2012, 3:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZombieTactics View Post
Given your claimed expertise, I'd love to know how to set up shots like that on a decent budget with remote equipment.
Like I said. Make a visit to your local camera shop and talk to some experts for advice on your budget. I'm not on this thread to give a how to on camera set ups.

This thread is asked the question... "safe to put a photographer downrange?"

Simple answer. NO

Does it violate firearms safety rules? YES


I know nothing about you zombietactics or what you do and have no opinion good or bad like someone suggested about others. My only concern is for someone who doesn't know any better to unnecessary put themselves or someone else at risk.
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  #54  
Old 02-12-2012, 3:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toyman321 View Post
I watched the whole video, I never once saw an angle of fire on the camera man that was even remotely as dangerous as the video in the OP's post. ...
Your opinion is noted. What do you think of Todd shooting steel at an unsafe distance, with improperly ("unsafe" so-to-speak) mounted targets?

It appears that Todd (and you) also draw your own lines regarding safety. You won't get any crap from me, I just note the potential hypocrisy of such a position.
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  #55  
Old 02-12-2012, 4:02 PM
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Definatly not worth it. Thats just plain old Crazy.
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  #56  
Old 02-12-2012, 4:10 PM
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NO does not look safe at all
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  #57  
Old 02-12-2012, 4:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZombieTactics View Post
OK is everyone lacking basic language skills? I clearly noted shaky, handheld tracking shots ... how does a remote shutter release accomplish that Einstein?
In the video posted by the OP, the links provided would accomplish that shot while eliminating someone getting shot. Show me a video of what your trying to accomplish...With the Todd footage, the cameraman is not directly in front of the muzzle.
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  #58  
Old 02-12-2012, 4:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZombieTactics View Post
Here's a link to the Todd Jarrett footage I mentioned earlier: CLICK HERE How many will be just as critical of Todd shooting steel at a range of inches (instead of the recommend 10 yard minimum), not mounted at an angle, with a cameraman obviously in the line of possible ricochets at fairly close distance?
My guess is that he's probably using frangible ammo for safety.

http://www.remington.com/products/ar...rator-ctf.aspx

Those ones have a 5 foot safe distance for head on...

and he's shooting at what appears to be new targets at an angle.

Anyways...




-- Michael
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  #59  
Old 02-12-2012, 4:38 PM
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Originally Posted by elSquid View Post
My guess is that he's probably using frangible ammo for safety. ...
Maybe, maybe not. It says nothing about the lack of a downward angle for the targets themselves.I agree that there is nothing so fundamentally unsafe in that video to warrant bashing. Even so, it's important to note that Todd has gotten so much crap about the original (on his YouTube channel) from "safety sallies" (sounds familiar) that he's marked it "private". That's one of the reasons why I posted a LiveLeak link. I use it simply as an example of someone technically doing something "wrong", but not necessarily unsafe. My contention is still that the FOUR RULES are the only universal safety rules.
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  #60  
Old 02-12-2012, 4:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZombieTactics View Post
Your opinion is noted. What do you think of Todd shooting steel at an unsafe distance, with improperly ("unsafe" so-to-speak) mounted targets?

It appears that Todd (and you) also draw your own lines regarding safety. You won't get any crap from me, I just note the potential hypocrisy of such a position.
I'd imagine because it was a professionally done video it would have a budget as such, meaning they could get a hold of the appropriate camera rigs to keep the camera man behind the muzzle. If they chose not to that's their business and I would consider a calculated but still unnecessary risk.
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  #61  
Old 02-12-2012, 5:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZombieTactics View Post
Maybe, maybe not.
http://www.iccammo.com/annouce2.htm

I'm thinking a definite maybe.



Quote:
Originally Posted by ZombieTactics View Post
It says nothing about the lack of a downward angle for the targets themselves.
Wha? The point of the frangibles is that you can shoot directly perpendicular to the surface since the projos dust on impact.

-- Michael
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  #62  
Old 02-12-2012, 5:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Gryff View Post
What a monumentally stupid thing to do.
+1 million to this being more than just plain stupid!

NO ONE should ever be downrange in the open at a shooting range when live fire is going that way, EVER! Remote controlled cameras are what should be used for this viewpoint. If I ever saw this going on at a range where I was a safety officer, everyone involved would be ejected immediately after a very stern warning on how dangerous and stupid that kind of thing is!

I'm outa' here, absolutely amazing that anyone could think this is safe in any way :-(
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  #63  
Old 02-12-2012, 5:42 PM
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It's 2012 people! There are cameras that can identify a target, center themselves, and focus all without human interaction. No need for the human target.
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  #64  
Old 02-12-2012, 6:24 PM
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Not only NO, but HELL NO! Foolish nonsense by ignorant people with more balls than brains.
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  #65  
Old 02-12-2012, 8:22 PM
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I would have to say that if you were the owner of the school or the owner of the range it should make you really concerned !!!

The guy with his finger on the trigger is wonderful !!!! That says it all for me regarding the guy that thought going down range was ok.

Some have experience and some die or get injured obtaining it .
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  #66  
Old 02-12-2012, 8:47 PM
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You need to add a 3rd Poll Option:

3) This is bat **** crazy!


Keith
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  #67  
Old 02-13-2012, 12:53 AM
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Default COMMON SENSE GUYS!! COME ON!!

The thing about safety is it is obvious. The video is not safe practice, I have seen in other classes photographers get "brave" but nothing to the reckless level of the video.

The hilarious thing is people claim this to be safe but if you watch carefully the cameraman instructs the student in the blue shirt how to fix a malfunction. I don't know why but with the context of everything associated with the video it made me laugh I watched it three times.

I'm sorry but if the students are at the level where you have to instruct them to clear a malfunction you shouldn't be in front of their muzzles. And no its not just the guy in the blue shirt as the guy next to him did a tactical reload and put his spent magazine into his primary magazine slot while keeping his finger ND ready on the trigger guard. Yes you have to start somewhere so I'm not trying to bag on any of them but most if not all seem beginner level.

I know how people want to defend their favorite instructor or justify what they did in class was safe but you are doing no one, including the school, a favor by making excuses. You just look bad and make the school look worse.

The only possible answer from the people involved and the people trying to defend the video should be: "Yeah it was unsafe, deal with it."

We all mess up safety at some point or be a little reckless. You get more respect if you own up to it rather than live in denial.
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  #68  
Old 02-13-2012, 3:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZombieTactics View Post
Many, many schools ... you should probably get a more comprehensive understanding of training methods in general before posting further on the subject. For the record, I'm not exactly fond of exactly the way this particular school teaches that ready position. There are variations which I find work better across a wider range of circumstances.
I can't think of a single reason to ever point my gun up like that. If this is a defensive scenario, an attacker has a lot more opportunity with your gun in this position versus anywhere else.
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  #69  
Old 02-13-2012, 11:19 AM
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Any one else notice the large amount of time for some of the students to fire the required 5 shots?
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Old 02-13-2012, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Alpha 1-4 View Post
Any one else notice the large amount of time for some of the students to fire the required 5 shots?
This sounds a bit like the Woody Allen joke where a guy in a restaurant complains that the "food is awful, and the portions are too small".

I would submit that IF you are of the opinion that it's crazy-insane-unsafe for the cameraman to be forward of the line, it's even more batcrap-insane to suggest that they shoot faster. Wouldn't you at the very least want them to slow the flark down a bit?
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Old 02-13-2012, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by locosway View Post
I can't think of a single reason to ever point my gun up like that. If this is a defensive scenario, an attacker has a lot more opportunity with your gun in this position versus anywhere else.
It solves some problems, creates others ... just like everything else. The way it's shown in the video ... don't like it. I prefer a more tucked in profile with the gun closer to the centerline and trigger guard right below line-of-sight. The guy in the video was obscuring his view to one side far too much IMHO. Alternately I hate the standard pointed out low-ready position with a passion ... kind of for the same reasons you offered: why would you want the gun in such a bad retention position? Whenever I see a class full of people using the Sul position, about half the time somebody is flagging someone else's legs or lower torso.

I alternate between my own version of the high ready, a compressed low ready, and something I don't know what to call except "running ready" ... sometimes you see Haley or Gomez using this last position. The last thing you'd ever want is a position which obscures your field of view or places the gun "way out there" somewhere, IMHO. YMMV.
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  #72  
Old 02-13-2012, 12:00 PM
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Maybe if they were shooting Airsoft...but I think he's violating the 2 degree rule.

If you decided to throw out every gun safety rule in existence this still has FAIL written all over it. When somebody gets a Darwin award for epic stupidity the media and anti's are going to have a field day.
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  #73  
Old 02-13-2012, 12:23 PM
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NO! No $@#% way!
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  #74  
Old 02-13-2012, 1:02 PM
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I'm finding it incredible that 9 voted that it was safe.
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  #75  
Old 02-13-2012, 1:03 PM
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"Whenever I see a class full of people using the Sul position incorrectly, about half the time somebody is flagging someone else's legs or lower torso."
Well of course they're doing in incorrectly. That's half the point in the first place. Did you honestly think I was implying anything else? The giant problem with the Sul (IMHO of course) is that it doesn't really offer a stable or repeatable index point. That's not some observation original to me BTW ... I've seen/heard it noted in one way or another by Clint Smith, Travis Haley and others. Interestingly enough, James Yeager thinks SUL is just fine ... so you have something in common with him, while I disagree on this point. (Are you a cult member? )If memory serves, it's not allowed in IDPA competitions due to the kind of safety concerns I've expressed.

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That would be the fault of the instructor not teaching position SUL properly
Given your comment, which Sul variation do you advocate ... the original Max Joeseph technique (who invented the Sul along with Alan Brosnon) or one of the common variations? Since you claim to know what is correct (or not) in this regard, I am anxious to benefit from your wisdom.
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Last edited by ZombieTactics; 02-13-2012 at 1:36 PM..
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Old 02-13-2012, 1:25 PM
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I'm finding it incredible that 9 voted that it was safe.
An almost incredulous result if attributed to individuals!

Firearms safety is a continuing process and not an event and both an individual and collective responsibility.
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Old 02-13-2012, 1:47 PM
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ZombieTactics ZombieTactics is offline
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An almost incredulous result if attributed to individuals! ...
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
- Giordano Bruno, burned to death by Inquisition


While the above is a pithy retort, I in no way imply that my opinion is "the truth" regarding this subject. I'd humbly suggest however that many learn to recognize their own opinions as such.
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Old 02-13-2012, 1:56 PM
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IDPA and the like must err on the side of the lowest common denominator when it comes to safety, the 180 rule which is really the 170 rule being an example. (I am fine with it as the level of training or lack there of varies greatly)
It's nice to have something to agree with you about. There is such a thing as "LCD Syndrome" ... I just draw the line at a different place than you.

I appreciate the rest of your input as well, except for the unnecessary insulting bits. I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree.
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Old 02-13-2012, 1:58 PM
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The photographer can line up the photo shot and either set the camera to automatic or remote trigger thus being safe with exception to an expensive camera.
Body down range = cease fire.

Need an action photo from downrange? Do it with a remote camera or don't do it at all.
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Old 02-13-2012, 2:00 PM
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Wait for nighttime on a dark night. Very dark.
Set up a mirror about 6 feet from the shooter.
Shooter stands slightly to left of mirror, photo to shooters right.
Shooter aims at mirror, reflection shows him shooting at photographer.
Set camera to bulb. Get sound activator for flash.
Shoot the gun.
Flash fires.
Image is made as bullet leaves the barrel.
Mirror shatters.
Get new mirror, repeat from top.
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