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National 2nd Amend. Political & Legal Discussion Discuss national gun rights and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 02-19-2018, 7:15 PM
retiredAFcop retiredAFcop is offline
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Default Trained teachers need to be allowed to CCW at work

As a public school teacher who is also a former military cop and firearms safety instructor, I find it sickening to think that, if my school is attacked, my only option to protect my students will be to use my body as a human shield, and possibly delay their deaths for a few moments.

In every mass shooting at a school in recent American history, heroic teachers have placed themselves between their students and the threat. Unfortunately, these heroic educators were denied the basic right to be armed in defense of self or others, simply because of where they work.

After the tragic events of 9-11, we allowed pilots to arm themselves. How many more tragic school attacks must we endure before we allow teachers and other school employees to arm themselves?

We are teachers, coaches, administrators, counselors, paraprofessionals, custodians... - we are professionals who have been background checked and entrusted with keeping kids safe.

Since we have a duty to protect our children, why not give us the tools to protect them?

Why not give us the choice?

Let's be pro-choice about allowing teachers the option to train and carry at work.

We owe it to the heroic teachers, like the three murdered this week in Florida - who have sacrificed themselves trying to help keep their students safe, even if only to buy those kids an extra moment or two of life - and to the teachers who will, in future, be the ones placing themselves between their students and a deadly threat.
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Old 02-19-2018, 7:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by retiredAFcop View Post
As a public school teacher who is also a former military cop and firearms safety instructor, I find it sickening to think that, if my school is attacked, my only option to protect my students will be to use my body as a human shield, and possibly delay their deaths for a few moments.

In every mass shooting at a school in recent American history, heroic teachers have placed themselves between their students and the threat. Unfortunately, these heroic educators were denied the basic right to be armed in defense of self or others, simply because of where they work.

After the tragic events of 9-11, we allowed pilots to arm themselves. How many more tragic school attacks must we endure before we allow teachers and other school employees to arm themselves?

We are teachers, coaches, administrators, counselors, paraprofessionals, custodians... - we are professionals who have been background checked and entrusted with keeping kids safe.

Since we have a duty to protect our children, why not give us the tools to protect them?

Why not give us the choice?

Let's be pro-choice about allowing teachers the option to train and carry at work.

We owe it to the heroic teachers, like the three murdered this week in Florida - who have sacrificed themselves trying to help keep their students safe, even if only to buy those kids an extra moment or two of life - and to the teachers who will, in future, be the ones placing themselves between their students and a deadly threat.
Well, just last session, Sacramento closed the "loophole" that allowed teachers to carry if their district superintendent allowed it.
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Old 02-19-2018, 7:21 PM
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Gun free zones kill people.

To answer your questions, the liberals want to have children die so that they can use that to further their gun ban agenda.

They are so insane that some refuse to allow armed, uniformed police on their campus. Armed police are fine for public streets, but not on school campuses according to them.
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Old 02-19-2018, 7:26 PM
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Once again, the Cali legislature is doing its part to make the world less safe for California's citizens..

Coach Feis, in Florida, is listed as a security guard as well as a coach, yet was unarmed, and unable to stop the Valentine's Day attacker.


Maybe it's time to change things up.

Even a couple of trained and prepared teachers on each campus would dramatically change the whole ball game for a school shooter, and reduce the length - and body counts - of their killing sprees.

"Napolitano is in favor of U.S. schools following the Israeli security practice Opens a New Window. requiring guards at schools and permitting certain individuals to carry firearms.

“They are teachers … who have been trained and practice every week and silently, stealthfully, not ostentatiously carry a gun,” he said."

http://www.foxbusiness.com/features/...dge-napolitano
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Old 02-19-2018, 7:27 PM
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Here teachers with Carry Permits can and do carry. By state statute no public school can prevent it. Students at public universities can carry concealed as well.

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Old 02-19-2018, 7:29 PM
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But, it’s for the children!

But seriously OP, you are missing the whole point...

It’s far easier to control a society that is not armed. In a facade republic such as the one we live in, disarmament must be done incrementaly. We as teachers are just one of the lower end phases of this disarmament.
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Old 02-19-2018, 9:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Dan_Eastvale View Post
Here teachers with Carry Permits can and do carry. By state statute no public school can prevent it. Students at public universities can carry concealed as well.
I'm so glad that at least three of my grandchildren will be raised and go to school in Utah. I really cannot wait to retire there.it will be a long 8 years.
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Old 02-19-2018, 9:14 PM
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It's unfortunate that the unarmed victim fits into the gun grabber argument far better than one of a heroic person with a gun saving numerous victims from a psycho shooter who should have been denied a gun purchase in the first place.
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Old 02-19-2018, 9:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by retiredAFcop View Post
As a public school teacher who is also a former military cop and firearms safety instructor, I find it sickening to think that, if my school is attacked, my only option to protect my students will be to use my body as a human shield, and possibly delay their deaths for a few moments.

In every mass shooting at a school in recent American history, heroic teachers have placed themselves between their students and the threat. Unfortunately, these heroic educators were denied the basic right to be armed in defense of self or others, simply because of where they work.

After the tragic events of 9-11, we allowed pilots to arm themselves. How many more tragic school attacks must we endure before we allow teachers and other school employees to arm themselves?

We are teachers, coaches, administrators, counselors, paraprofessionals, custodians... - we are professionals who have been background checked and entrusted with keeping kids safe.

Since we have a duty to protect our children, why not give us the tools to protect them?

Why not give us the choice?

Let's be pro-choice about allowing teachers the option to train and carry at work.

We owe it to the heroic teachers, like the three murdered this week in Florida - who have sacrificed themselves trying to help keep their students safe, even if only to buy those kids an extra moment or two of life - and to the teachers who will, in future, be the ones placing themselves between their students and a deadly threat.
We are on your side. IMHO, not only should they allow you carry, they should pay for your training with law enforcement, including ammo, so that you and they would make a well coordinated and well trained team. It would not stop such shootings because we are dealing with nut cases. But it could reduce the number of injured and the likelihood of an attack in the first place. Remember that what stopped the church shooting in Texas was a NRA instructor with an AR. What the anti-gun libtards should look at is that these nut cases are not attacking hardened well armed targets but unarmed children located in soft targets. So what would be the effect if they started encountering well armed and well trained teachers and administrators, who they could not identify before they made the decision to attack? My guess is that most would pick easier targets. And the few that did not would become the poster people for what to avoid if you want to be a mass murderer of school children.

Clearly the best answer would be to identify these shooters before hand but that is not always possible. So, we need a backup plan to stop these attacks when they materialize.

But, of course, I am preaching to the choir because it is not the intent of the libtards to stop these shootings but to disarm law abiding citizens.
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  #10  
Old 02-20-2018, 7:38 AM
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Are teachers in a risky job like a 7-11 clerk?
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Old 02-20-2018, 9:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Jimi Jah View Post
Are teachers in a risky job like a 7-11 clerk?
On a bad day, a 7-11 Clerk faces an armed criminal, hands over the money, and the criminal leaves. Later, insurance repays the lost money.

A teacher can't just hand the kids over to an armed criminal, insurance is not going to replace the kids' lives.



On a bad day, a teacher has to do what a cop does on a bad day - place themself between the public and a criminal who is armed and dangerous - but teachers do it without a gun, vest, baton, pepper spray, tazer, radio, or any of the other tools that cops routinely have access to.
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Old 02-21-2018, 10:56 PM
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Most teachers in Ca are way to liberal to be armed. IMO

I'd much rather see our new military recruits fresh out of basic training have to serve 3 to 6 months standing guard in front of school entrances & exits. Have them rotate between schools in the areas they are assigned to keep their attitude high.

Teachers are already on strike here and there for higher pay. Putting further burden on them will just add to their problems.
Most schools can't afford school supplies let alone paying for teacher firearm training.

Court houses do not arm justices, they have a armed guard at the entrance and exit.
Having one or two teachers with a firearm across campus from a active shooter does little to nothing.
Active shooters need to be stopped before entering a campus not after the shooting starts.

We have a huge military protecting citizens of other countries.
Bring them home and protect our children first!
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Old 02-22-2018, 9:14 AM
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President Trump just called for exactly that!
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Old 02-22-2018, 9:34 AM
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I am all for Armed teachers and staff, as long as they are trained and have requirements for regular training.
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Old 02-22-2018, 9:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_Eastvale View Post
Here teachers with Carry Permits can and do carry. By state statute no public school can prevent it. Students at public universities can carry concealed as well.
I'm from New Yorkistan, and I was lucky enough to visit the free state of Utah about 5 years ago. During my visit I got a chance to talk to a Utah public school teacher. I'm not sure how it came up, but she mentioned that she carries on the job. She also explained how the school district supports her doing so. She said that her students were hers to protect and she was determined to do so.

I was floored. It may not seem like news to someone living in a free state, but for someone who lives on the other side of the wall, it was a huge revelation. At the time I had no idea any states allowed teachers to carry. More recently I've learned that as many as 18 states allow armed security of some kind in schools.

Of course you'd never know any of this from watching the mainstream media. According to CNN the only solution to stopping school shooters is the fairy tale elimination of the 2nd amendment.
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Old 02-22-2018, 11:37 AM
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I am sorry but teachers are paid to teach. Period.

I am against teachers carrying regardless of your stance. I have 4 female cousins that are teachers in grades 4-12. There is no way I would ever trust them with a firearm to protect children, regardless of what training they have. They are a mess with firearms and are afraid of them and they told me they would never carry. To me that’s clear enough that I don’t want even family members as teachers with a ccw trying to protect our children. That’s 4 out of thousands that probably feel the same way about firearms.

Now with your military background there can be an exception. But not all teachers are qualified firearm instructors, former gunners mates etc.

I love my cousins to death but firearms and teachers just doesn’t make sense right now.

For me armed security and retired military and police veterans as security makes much more sense. Folks familiar with firearms and able and qualified to make split second decisions. Situational awareness is paramount here.

I would take a 39 year old retired Senior Chief Petty Officer over a 22 year old teacher with a degree any day of the week to protect my child.

Last edited by Endless; 02-22-2018 at 11:51 AM..
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Old 02-22-2018, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kokanee View Post
Most teachers in Ca are way to liberal to be armed. IMO
While that may be true, there are enough teachers who are not, that if they were allowed to be armed (their choice), it could make a difference - more than anything the left are pushing.

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Court houses do not arm justices, they have a armed guard at the entrance and exit.
Er no, many Judges have CCW and in CA they are one of the few who can get one.

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Having one or two teachers with a firearm across campus from a active shooter does little to nothing.
Again, wrong.
One reason home invasion robberies are rare in the US is the *possibility* of encountering an armed home owner.

In the UK for example where the chances of that are 0%, home invasion is the preferred model.
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Old 02-22-2018, 12:11 PM
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Why not open carry, I'm just thinking duty holsters would be better for retention.
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Old 02-22-2018, 12:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Endless View Post
I am sorry but teachers are paid to teach. Period.

I am against teachers carrying regardless of your stance. I have 4 female cousins that are teachers in grades 4-12. There is no way I would ever trust them with a firearm to protect children, regardless of what training they have. They are a mess with firearms and are afraid of them and they told me they would never carry.
Not all teachers are like your cousins. Not all teachers would be asked to carry. Utah does it on a voluntary basis. In the average school I'd bet between the teachers, administrators and maintenance staff there would be at least a few qualified gun owners. Not every teacher in the school has to carry. It only takes a few to remove the "gun free zone" sign and replace it with one of these:

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Old 02-22-2018, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by randomBytes View Post
While that may be true, there are enough teachers who are not, that if they were allowed to be armed (their choice), it could make a difference - more than anything the left are pushing.



Er no, many Judges have CCW and in CA they are one of the few who can get one.



Again, wrong.
One reason home invasion robberies are rare in the US is the *possibility* of encountering an armed home owner.

In the UK for example where the chances of that are 0%, home invasion is the preferred model.

Sorry, not wrong...... My opinion is just as valid as yours!

No home invasions in the US? Do you live under a rock? There are home invasions all the time!

"Er,no?"
Umm, judges are not required to carry a firearm for their job!
"They are one of the few that can get a CCW?"
Under a rock again?
I have one, I live in Ca, and it was easy to get!

I'll stick with my opinion!
Thanks for your input though!

Last edited by Kokanee; 02-22-2018 at 12:29 PM..
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Old 02-22-2018, 12:35 PM
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I saw a map and it showed that CA is a state that allows for this if "approved".
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Old 02-22-2018, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Endless View Post
I am sorry but teachers are paid to teach. Period.

I am against teachers carrying regardless of your stance. I have 4 female cousins that are teachers in grades 4-12. There is no way I would ever trust them with a firearm to protect children, regardless of what training they have. They are a mess with firearms and are afraid of them and they told me they would never carry. To me that’s clear enough that I don’t want even family members as teachers with a ccw trying to protect our children. That’s 4 out of thousands that probably feel the same way about firearms.

Now with your military background there can be an exception. But not all teachers are qualified firearm instructors, former gunners mates etc.

I love my cousins to death but firearms and teachers just doesn’t make sense right now.

For me armed security and retired military and police veterans as security makes much more sense. Folks familiar with firearms and able and qualified to make split second decisions. Situational awareness is paramount here.

I would take a 39 year old retired Senior Chief Petty Officer over a 22 year old teacher with a degree any day of the week to protect my child.

Wait, so you are saying, because your cousins are bad at guns, then all teachers are bad at guns unless they have military backgrounds? What kind of crap is that?

My wife is a teacher. She was only exposed to firearms when we started dating after college. She rarely goes shooting with me, but when she does she shoots better than most guys in my reserve unit.

Your logic is the same as the gun grabbers, "a couple of bad guys misuse guns, so no one gets guns except military and police."
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Old 02-22-2018, 2:30 PM
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I worked for the court system for 40+ years and I know some judges had a hand gun at the bench.


Sent from the Telegraph Office.
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Old 02-22-2018, 2:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Endless View Post
I am sorry but teachers are paid to teach. Period.

I am against teachers carrying regardless of your stance. I have 4 female cousins that are teachers in grades 4-12. There is no way I would ever trust them with a firearm to protect children, regardless of what training they have. They are a mess with firearms and are afraid of them and they told me they would never carry. To me that’s clear enough that I don’t want even family members as teachers with a ccw trying to protect our children. That’s 4 out of thousands that probably feel the same way about firearms.
So where did anyone say they MUST be armed? If your 4 cousins don't want to, they certainly don't have to. Based on what you say they probably shouldn't be allowed near firearms period. That's them, not everybody. Stop projecting. How about letting those who want to, do so? And if they want to, they should probably get extra specifically tailored training and maybe even a psych eval to boot. It shouldn't cost the school or district a dime, it's voluntary.

Lets be clear, I'm not advocating anyone be forced to do anything but instead allow those that desire and are willing to take the extra time and spend the extra money to get qualified to be allowed to do so within a strict set of guidelines.
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Old 02-22-2018, 2:48 PM
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Would you put up a sign outside your home that it is a gun free zone? Ask an anti-gun person and they wouldn't either, so then why do they think it is a good idea to advertise that a school is a gun free zone?

One issue that even some gun people don't seem to get is that you should not be forced to be unable to defend yourself. It is one thing is you are in a secure facility, with armed security, and that you have a secure parking lot in which you can leave your firearm so that you are not at risk going to or from work, unless they are willing to pick you up from home with armed security.

Why should a teacher be unable to protect themselves, much less their students, especially when schools have been turned into targets as "gun free zones"?

Consider what you would have to do in order to make a school a secure facility. It has to be 24/7 since someone could come over the weekend and hide items to harm people so that they could walk through the security checkpoint (assuming that they had one). You also have to make sure that no one could go over a fence, cut a lock and open a gate, hide there over the weekend, etc. You would have to carefully search everyone and everything that they bring in and I suspect that the teachers and students would not like that in the least.

The interesting thing is that liberals complain about school shootings, which they caused by making schools gun free zones, but they don't really want to do what it takes to stop that. They complain about what it would cost, which means that they are saying the the lives of the students are not worth the cost. Some don't even want to allow armed uniformed police on campus, such as a police officer parent dropping their child off while in complete uniform. I wonder how many police officers would want to be in uniform and NOT to be allowed to have their firearm.


You also get that because some teachers should not have a firearm, all should be prevented. Consider what that really says.
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Old 02-22-2018, 3:27 PM
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The state legislatures just need to change their laws to allow it, problem solved. They'll just need a CCW (issued in that state) to avoid Federal penalties.
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Old 02-22-2018, 3:55 PM
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If you advertised that teachers/admin/staff might be armed, even if you actually do nothing, it is likely it would reduce the school shootings. A gun free zone makes it much more likely to be "successful" to the lunatic.

Look what happened in FL when they changed the CCW law, crime when down even before anyone could actually get a permit.

Next, don't give them fame, don't mention their name, don't show their photo, don't give the next lunatic a goal or an incentive to try to become "known".
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Old 02-22-2018, 4:01 PM
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I believe we should train teachers and staff. Then arm them to the teeth.
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Old 02-22-2018, 4:35 PM
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I believe we should train teachers and staff. Then arm them to the teeth.
This will save lives!

Gun control is not about crime! It's about control....total control!!!

Take care
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Old 02-22-2018, 4:35 PM
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https://www.google.com/amp/insider.f.../article/60357

This father, who’s daughter was just murdered, got it right. Arm qualified school teachers now. Argue about gun control later.

This vid is the unedited version. All the spin media edited to fit their narrative.
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Old 02-22-2018, 4:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Blade Gunner View Post
https://www.google.com/amp/insider.f.../article/60357

This father, who’s daughter was just murdered, got it right. Arm qualified school teachers now. Argue about gun control later.

This vid is the unedited version. All the spin media edited to fit their narrative.
Thanx for posting the video ! It would appear the school shootings just became very risky for the diabolical scum that thinks its OK !
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Old 02-22-2018, 5:09 PM
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https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile....oting.amp.html

This gets more insane everyday. The cop didn’t go in, he then retired before a disciplinary hearing. His pension should be reduced.
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Old 02-22-2018, 5:18 PM
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Unfortunately if you arm teachers you open up another huge can of worms. Like what happens when SWAT arrives and finds themselves facing an adult with a gun drawn. Boom! Dead armed teacher. Without some secret means of identifying that the armed person they encounter is indeed a teacher the police will simply shoot first and ask questions later. Or they will hesitate, not knowing, just long enough for the perp to kill them.
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Old 02-22-2018, 5:23 PM
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I'm a teacher in a public school and a CCW holder.
I think about, and am concerned about, my safety and the safety of my students every day.
I would be pleased to carry at school if allowed. I have discussed this with my students many times - I believe they would support this as well.
My district's current safety plan is "Run, Hide, Fight". In other words, if a person comes on campus with a rifle or handgun and tries to murder us we are to run away, or hide (cower), or fight back with books, pencils, or backpacks.
From my limited experience, I believe that I would be more effective in my personal defense (more likely to go home to my wife and family) if I shot back at the bastard with my own pistol.
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Old 02-22-2018, 5:57 PM
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Unfortunately if you arm teachers you open up another huge can of worms. Like what happens when SWAT arrives and finds themselves facing an adult with a gun drawn. Boom! Dead armed teacher. Without some secret means of identifying that the armed person they encounter is indeed a teacher the police will simply shoot first and ask questions later. Or they will hesitate, not knowing, just long enough for the perp to kill them.
So that off-duty or plain clothes officers will always get shot as well?

If the SWAT knows that teachers are armed then they are not going to shoot everyone. Even ignoring that, they know that others might be there as well.

Sorry, I don't buy that excuse to keep having children killed.
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Old 02-22-2018, 6:50 PM
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Originally Posted by lapriester View Post
Unfortunately if you arm teachers you open up another huge can of worms. Like what happens when SWAT arrives and finds themselves facing an adult with a gun drawn. Boom! Dead armed teacher. Without some secret means of identifying that the armed person they encounter is indeed a teacher the police will simply shoot first and ask questions later. Or they will hesitate, not knowing, just long enough for the perp to kill them.
The idea behind arming teachers is that the bad guy is dead long before SWAT or even the first officers arrive.
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Old 02-22-2018, 7:02 PM
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Originally Posted by dennis9288 View Post
I'm a teacher in a public school and a CCW holder.
I think about, and am concerned about, my safety and the safety of my students every day.
I would be pleased to carry at school if allowed. I have discussed this with my students many times - I believe they would support this as well.
My district's current safety plan is "Run, Hide, Fight". In other words, if a person comes on campus with a rifle or handgun and tries to murder us we are to run away, or hide (cower), or fight back with books, pencils, or backpacks.
From my limited experience, I believe that I would be more effective in my personal defense (more likely to go home to my wife and family) if I shot back at the bastard with my own pistol.
That is a great scenario if he came directly to your classroom.

What would any teacher be able to do if they are in the teachers lounge having lunch and a active shooter entered a cafeteria with 300 students.

By the time any teacher could respond it would be a blood bath.
A day late and a dollar short....

Active shooters need to be stopped before a shot is fired!
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Old 02-23-2018, 9:12 AM
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Active shooters need to be stopped before a shot is fired!
Nice idea in theory, but it does not always work in the real world. It is like saying that you should avoid fires so that you don't need fire extinguishers, fire departments and fire insurance, but the simple fact is that sometimes you do and you want ALL options.

In the last case, the government dropped the ball, to say the least. In other cases, it does not appear that anything could have prevented it. Stopping it by having armed law abiding citizens can greatly reduce the harm that is caused.

If you were in a building under attack, by any means, I am sure that you would have to have a chance to protect yourself instead of just waiting until police arrive AND confront the threat.
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Old 02-23-2018, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
Nice idea in theory, but it does not always work in the real world. It is like saying that you should avoid fires so that you don't need fire extinguishers, fire departments and fire insurance, but the simple fact is that sometimes you do and you want ALL options.

In the last case, the government dropped the ball, to say the least. In other cases, it does not appear that anything could have prevented it. Stopping it by having armed law abiding citizens can greatly reduce the harm that is caused.

If you were in a building under attack, by any means, I am sure that you would have to have a chance to protect yourself instead of just waiting until police arrive AND confront the threat.
It's not hard to keep unwanted firearms out of a building. We do it all of the time all over the country.
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Old 02-23-2018, 10:31 AM
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It's not hard to keep unwanted firearms out of a building. We do it all of the time all over the country.
That is funny.

What is the TSA failure rate when tested?

You really think that someone who really wanted to bring a firearm in would fail? You really think that every package that is shipped in is checked to see if a firearm is in the package? Do you think that every single desktop computer brought into the building is opened to make sure that a firearm isn't inside? The possibilities are endless.

Consider a school. On the weekend, hide a firearm on the property and then walk in when school is in session. They don't monitor the property 24/7, they don't check children coming in every single time from every single entrance.

So if you really think that, I have a bridge to sell you, as well as some nice (swamp) land.
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