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Has Jesus's material message been misinterpreted?
Leaving the salvation of our souls to another discussion, this fellow believes so Jesus message had a more material aspect also. :
https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2017...-not-sins.html |
#2
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If his Jesus can get financial debts forgiven, there'd be a lot more worshippers of him.
He starts with a dictionary approach to interpretation (take a word, ignore the context, and pick the meaning you want it to be), then puts on his debt-colored glasses and interprets the whole Bible from his debt-forgiveness perspective. Just a little biased. Jesus Christ paid my real debt.
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Pastor Bill "Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason- I do not accept the authority of popes and councils [i.e. any man]- my conscience is captive to the Word of God." Martin Luther |
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It is very common for people to confuse spiritual matters with physical matters. It creates oh so many problems.
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Mark 16:16 |
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I can’t even finish the dumb piece. It's so biblically inacurrate and full of error, that it’s not an article even worthy of debate.
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It`s funny to me to see how angry an atheist is over a God they don`t believe in.` -Jack Hibbs -ΙΧΘΥΣ <>< |
#6
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I feel like I was saved from wasting my time. Thanks for treading the water guys
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LIVE FREE OR DIE! M. Sage's I have a dream speech; |
#8
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Interesting how the only facts cared about are the 'facts' presented in the Bible. Much of the Bible seems to be confirmed by academic and archeological investigations, but to reflexively decide that it is the complete factual picture is just y'alls exercising of 'faith'. More went on in those times than was recorded in the Bible, but you don't care about much of any of that unless it confirms your preexisting beliefs. Would the spiritual message of Jesus be changed if he were in fact a proponent of (as we know it today) Socialism? Your collective (apparently) conservative cultural biases seem to reflexively judge collective living as somehow un-compatible with Christ's message. As it turns out, the economic scene of thr Roman Empire at the time of Christ was very surprisingly much like our own. (If you care for an overview, see here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_economy ) So yes, being in / having large debts was a likely on the minds of people then. Jesus is / was easily seen as a radical progressive in those days. Can be seen as one now except for the aforementioned co-opting / corrupting of his message to conveniently de-emphasis on material / 'physical matters'. This piece says it better than I could, challenge to your biases and comprehension skills and check it out. Or, continue to let others decide how you are supposed to think, its so much easier. https://www.theodysseyonline.com/chr....google.com%2F |
#9
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My comment does not discount the real social, political, and economical climate of the New Testament period. But it is clear and evident that Jesus concerned himself with matters of the soul and of the heart, not so much matters of the body and the wallet. He was not a social justice warrior, no matter how much some people today would hope. Please consider the following passages: “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm.” - John 18:36 “For this reason I say to you, do not be worried about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink; nor for your body,what you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing? Look at the birds of the air, that they do not sow, nor reap nor gather into barns, and your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not worth much more than they? And who of you by being worried can add an hour to his life? And why are you worried about clothing? Observe how the lilies of the field grow; they do not toil nor do they spin, yet I say to you that not even Solomon in all his glory clothed himself like one of these. But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which is today and tomorrow is thrown into the furnace, not much more you? You of little faith! Do not worry then, saying, ‘What will we eat?’ or ‘What will we drink?’ or ‘What will we wear for clothing?’ For the Gentiles eagerly seek all these things; for your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. But seek His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you." - Matthew 6:25-33
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Mark 16:16 Last edited by WASR10; 12-30-2017 at 1:22 PM.. |
#10
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Wasr10,
While I used your comment as a point to start from, the 'your' pronoun was used in reference to all the commenters in this thread. If the shoe doesn't fit no need to wear it. Still no one addresses the underlined question. If Jesus had been a Socialist, would it have made any difference? Adherents seem to want it both ways. If I say Jesus was not about here, but the hereafter, this gets an argument otherwise. But by Jesus's own words you quote, it could be read that even if your life is misery and pain, as long as you trust in Jesus all will be well with your spirit (possibly not mattering if your life of misery led you into sin) as long as Jesus is in your last thoughts as you pass this mortal coil. Is that Matthew 6:25-33 part of the currently fashionable Prosperity preaching? Seemed to work that way for the Calvanists too. So many wars and shedding of blood, burning of heretics etc. took place in the name of differing Christian denominations in the 16th century Reformation. Physical matters seemed to be at the forefront of all that, No? Of course we are all better than that now, right? |
#12
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There are a couple of points I agree with in the article, but on the whole, I am not sure about it. |
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No, I don’t agree. “As long as your last thoughts are on Jesus” is not a Biblical concept. That certainly is not what Matthew 6 teaches. Calvinists, that is a different story all together. Wars, fighting, blood-shed... these are not part of the Christian religion. One only has to read what the Christian church is, from the New Testament, to know this. But, people throughout history have shed blood in the name of a religion they did not represent, or understood. Very true. That does not change what the religion is.
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Mark 16:16 |
#14
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Since we're speaking hypothetically, I have a question for you: what if there were no hypothetical questions?
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Regarding the 2nd Amendment: "...to disarm the people ― that was the best and most effectual way to enslave them." George Mason ("The Father of the Bill of Rights") Regarding Life and Death: "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Matthew 10:28 The BIG question: "What shall I do then with Jesus which is called Christ?" Matthew 27:22b |
#15
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i would prefer to think of the idea of absolution as a ruse to fool sinners into repenting and reforming. why? child molesters and rapists and murderers should burn in hell, if there is such a thing, no matter what pleas they make as they see the lights dimming. of course, if there is a god, i don't think he's be fooled by them trying to sneak into heaven anyway. Last edited by theLBC; 01-02-2018 at 5:24 PM.. |
#17
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In that case, knowledge would be stagnant. That would be fine for those who find all they need between the covers of the Bible. Fortunately, in my opinion, that is not most people.
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#18
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I guess it depends on what they are looking for.
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Mark 16:16 |
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Matthew 6:9-13King James Version (KJV)
9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. 10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. 11 Give us this day our daily bread. 12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. 13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen. |
#20
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There is no 2nd guessing the word. It is what it is...
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God so loved the world He gave His only Son... Believe in Him and have everlasting life. John 3:16 NRA,,, Lifer United Air Epic Fail Video ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u99Q7pNAjvg |
#21
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That is not a very good translation of John 18:36. This is a much better translation: John 18:36 New Revised Standard Version (NRSV) 36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not from this world. If my kingdom were from this world, my followers would be fighting to keep me from being handed over to the Jews. But as it is, my kingdom is not from here.” The other verses are not contrasting the physical and the spiritual but are speaking of trust and anxiety. In terms of of the physical (if you can even separate the physical from the spiritual which seems more of a concept of Greek philosophy than Biblical theology there are these huge biblical references: God creates the physical world and says that it is "tov". "And the Word became flesh and lived among us, and we have seen his glory, the glory as of a father’s only son, full of grace and truth." John 1:14 "All things came into being through him, and without him not one thing came into being." John 1:3 Jesus spoke more about wealth and the dangers of wealth than He did about prayer.
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“It was miraculous. It was almost no trick at all, he saw, to turn vice into virtue and slander into truth, impotence into abstinence, arrogance into humility, plunder into philanthropy, thievery into honor, blasphemy into wisdom, brutality into patriotism, and sadism into justice. Anybody could do it; it required no brains at all. It merely required no character.” ― Joseph Heller, Catch 22 |
#22
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Yes, God created the world and said it was "tov" (OK Hebrew transliteration). But what does that mean? How many times is tov used in Genesis 1? It's part of the structure of the passage and has specific meaning. Yes, John 1:3, 1:14 are true. So also are all the other passages on creation in the Bible. What's your point? Jesus spoke about a lot of things. BUT, the quantity of His comments on a given subject doesn't give them more weight! Every word He spoke was absolute truth and needs to be obeyed - even if He only spoke on it once. There's no principle of hermeneutics that says quantity makes for greater quality or importance.
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Pastor Bill "Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason- I do not accept the authority of popes and councils [i.e. any man]- my conscience is captive to the Word of God." Martin Luther |
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Jesus spoke of the physical only in terms as it affected the spiritual. Again, I maintain, His concern was (and is) the spiritual. Read the Sermon on the Mount. Read what He has to say about who we make our master, God or wealth. We are all slaves to something. Is it physical or spiritual? There certainly is a difference.
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Mark 16:16 Last edited by WASR10; 01-31-2018 at 4:21 PM.. |
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Capitalism genetically modifies the fish so that it can survive a toxic environment, made toxic by the drive to make things 'cheaper',
and externalizes (doesn't deal with at any level) the costs associated with the toxicity it produces for everyone else. What would Jesus do/recommend? |
#26
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Wrong, capitalism is a store where you can buy fish that were grown in farm rather than caught in the ocean.
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best troll thread in calguns history http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=406739 burn the circus down cuz the world is full of clowns |
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Mark 16:16 |
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The producers and the retailers would both be capitalists, would they not?
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You do recognize that there were toxic lethal fogs that overtook London during the good old unfettered coal industrial age capitalism, right? Maybe that God planned to take those 12.000 dead there in 1952. No problem, an acceptable price for the profits in your view I'd speculate. Way lots of capitalistic profits to be made on War too. Always has been, even notably the Crusades. Didn't Jesus and or the Scriptures prescribe being good stewards? I'd say good stewardship is in jeopardy of becoming extinct. Got any example where socialism caused large environmental damages/ toxic releases-consequences? Standing by. Last edited by justMike; 02-21-2018 at 10:35 PM.. |
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Man you have no idea what you’re asking. You’ve really backed yourself into a corner with that last question.... Socialism has caused not only wide spread pollution, decay, and poverty, but it’s also caused more human suffering as well as overall environmental disasters on a “biblical” scale (pun intended). Here’s just but one article you can find out there on the web about the “terminal” effects of socialism: https://fee.org/articles/why-sociali...ses-pollution/ I also think you probably should have brought this topic up in some sort of political debate forum.
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It`s funny to me to see how angry an atheist is over a God they don`t believe in.` -Jack Hibbs -ΙΧΘΥΣ <>< |
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https://news.vice.com/article/the-so...into-the-ocean Have you seen the hundreds of islands in the south China Sea destroyed by the Chinese? Jesus is our King. We have no need for a big state. He came to set us free not put us in bondage.
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Psalm 103 Mojave Lever Crew |
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Right here:
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Russia, Oka river, 1965 China, Sichuan, 1980 Ukrain, Chernobyl, 1986 Poland, Silesia, 1990 Czechosavakia, Bohemia, 1990 Venezuela, Caracas, 2004 The list goes on and on.
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Mark 16:16 Last edited by WASR10; 02-22-2018 at 9:30 PM.. |
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http://www.columbia.edu/~tmt2120/introduction.htm Let alone Russia's dealings with nuclear waste disposal. |
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Jesus spoke more about the dangers of wealth than he did about prayer. The Gospels are full of such stories: The Rich Young Ruler; The Rich Man and Lazarus; The Man Building Bigger Barns; The Magnificat ("He has filled the hungry withy good things and the rich He has sent away empty")and in Luke's Gospel: "Woe to you who are rich!" The only true Communist society was the early Christian Church. All in all the Gospel of Jesus Christ is a very subversive document.
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“It was miraculous. It was almost no trick at all, he saw, to turn vice into virtue and slander into truth, impotence into abstinence, arrogance into humility, plunder into philanthropy, thievery into honor, blasphemy into wisdom, brutality into patriotism, and sadism into justice. Anybody could do it; it required no brains at all. It merely required no character.” ― Joseph Heller, Catch 22 |
#36
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The author makes a few good points but, like Marx, sees everything in economic terms. It's like an economist who moves out of state to save money on taxes. Yes, they might be right. But they forget the entire point of having money in the first place -- to have the freedom to live wherever and do whatever you darn well please.
Economics is VERY strong in Jesus's message because it was a major issue of his day. But politics, religion and economics weren't separate spheres like they are (or how we think about them) today. The term "Messiah" (pronounced Meshiach in Hebrew) was mostly political but with religious overtones. It wasn't all economics. But economics was undoubtedly part of it. Jesus was a complex man. Reducing him down to one issue does him a disservice. He was concerned with how spiritual thought & law was put into practice and how certain practices, like not working on Shabbat, often ignored more important matters of life and faith, like helping the needy or simply feeding yourself. People often think that Jesus was 100% logically consistent and confidently knew everything he ever said. He often backpedaled into more lofty, spiritual matters after being challenged in ways that could get him arrested. It's an easy, tactical retreat so he could live to argue another day. Pretty wise course of action, I think. He pushed a lot of buttons! Putting the deity of Jesus aside, he was human. The temptation narrative and the crucifixion narratives make this pretty clear. Power, fame, ambition, questioning & doubt were all part of his story as much as justice, spirituality, etc. Seeing him as a man of his day, he wrestled with a lot of difficult ideas & a lot of problems. I respect his calls to cut the legalistic BS and get busy helping people. But simplifying that to ONLY economics and ONLY debt is a gross oversimplification. After all, there was already legal precedent for Jubilee, as others had pointed out. But that is notably absent anywhere in the gospels. |
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