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  #1  
Old 09-17-2019, 8:01 AM
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Default Curious - They WHY of DA/SA pistols?

So, pardon me for this question (don't have many years under my belt - still learning) - what is the whole point of DA/SA?

I would see the perspective that the DA helps to ensure that the first shot is a conscious decision to fire. But if so, what the heck are those DA/SA pistols that allow one to fire from SA with the safety? All I see here is "versatility."

That, too, is with a DA/SA - unless one was trained, they'd probably be pulling either the first shot or the second shot.

I would understand a DAO or an SAO pistol; but to have TWO different trigger pulls? (this is one reason I got rid of my Beretta PX4 Storm 9 my 2nd year in firearms - always had to start from DA)

Whatever happend to KISS? Keep It Simple, Shooter!

Thanks in advance for the enlightenment...


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  #2  
Old 09-17-2019, 8:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rodralig View Post
So, pardon me for this question (don't have many years under my belt - still learning) - what is the whole point of DA/SA?

I would see the perspective that the DA helps to ensure that the first shot is a conscious decision to fire. But if so, what the heck are those DA/SA pistols that allow one to fire from SA with the safety? All I see here is "versatility."

That, too, is with a DA/SA - unless one was trained, they'd probably be pulling either the first shot or the second shot.

I would understand a DAO or an SAO pistol; but to have TWO different trigger pulls? (this is one reason I got rid of my Beretta PX4 Storm 9 my 2nd year in firearms - always had to start from DA)

Whatever happend to KISS? Keep It Simple, Shooter!

Thanks in advance for the enlightenment...


_

https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/...216-story.html

It doesn't explain it all, but here is a reason, lots of people who carry guns professionally don't train with them, sometimes you gotta serve the lowest common denominator.

Last edited by Over It; 09-17-2019 at 8:09 AM..
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  #3  
Old 09-17-2019, 8:12 AM
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Absolutely - NEGLIGENT discharges. (Accidental discharges in the headline? Hhhmmm...) As I did say

Quote:
I would see the perspective that the DA helps to ensure that the first shot is a conscious decision to fire.

But is that only it?

I would see that, be it DA or SA or DAO or SAO or whatever, you will still get an NEGLIGENT discharge if you can't simply follow "Trigger finger stays off the trigger and alongside the frame until you intend to shoot."

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  #4  
Old 09-17-2019, 8:13 AM
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In the development of the p64, the Polish designers intentionally went with a very heavy double action. I mean, designed to be over 20 lbs.

The thought process behind it was that with such a heavy trigger, you wouldn't have negligent discharges (remember, trigger finger discipline in the 60's ComBloc was...not a thing) but if a bad guy jumped on you it wouldn't matter as you fired into his gut in a grapple.

If he was farther away...you'd have time to thumb the hammer back.

Just one set of reasoning.

I believe the PX4 is available in DAO and SAO and DA/SA but I don't know how many of those models are on-roster if any. I read an article about it a while back but wasn't personally that interested.
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Old 09-17-2019, 8:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Over It View Post
It doesn't explain it all, but here is a reason, lots of people who carry guns professionally don't train with them, sometimes you gotta serve the lowest common denominator.
I would have to agree with you on this... Quals are a joke...!

But can't blame that for it... Shooting/firearms is just but ONE of a LEOs many responsibilities.


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  #6  
Old 09-17-2019, 9:12 AM
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My 220 is listed on my carry permit.

A SA pull is obviously the most desirable action because itís light with very little travel or creep in the trigger, but I donít like to carry SA pistols due to their inherent external safeties. A DA/SA pistol allows me to safely carry one in the pipe, no external safety, with quick and accurate follow up shots.
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Old 09-17-2019, 9:15 AM
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imho, the heavy DA pull and light SA pull is the best combination of safety and accuracy.

it is pretty had to "accidentally" pull the trigger on a DA Sig Sauer, regardless of the failure of prosecutors to demonstrate this for Kate Steinle's killer.
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  #8  
Old 09-17-2019, 9:22 AM
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It is a solution to a non-existent problem. We used to call them "crunchentickers" to describe the trigger action, but for me the shifting of the grip is an issue. Some folks don't have this problem with their hand structure, but others do.
I get it that many who are armed professionals may be for a number of reasons less skilled at arms, however the well trained civilian who is motivated and dedicated has no such limitations, thus may be better suited in their own choices.
Jeff Cooper had some insight into the whole matter, doing a bit of research may lead to more findings.
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  #9  
Old 09-17-2019, 10:13 AM
tuna quesadilla tuna quesadilla is offline
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Originally Posted by theLBC View Post
imho, the heavy DA pull and light SA pull is the best combination of safety and accuracy.

it is pretty had to "accidentally" pull the trigger on a DA Sig Sauer, regardless of the failure of prosecutors to demonstrate this for Kate Steinle's killer.
This is the correct answer.

For all intents and purposes, the four types of combat handgun actions are SAO, DAO, DA/SA, and striker-fired. (This leaves out weird hybrids like DAK or LEM.)

Current gunfighting doctrine holds that manual safeties are generally not desirable or even permissible when handguns are used as a primary weapon, so SAO is ruled out.

DAO is considered obsolete except for niche cases such as deep concealment guns.

Striker fired is usually the default choice; however...

DA/SA offers some niche advantages such as cleaner trigger control and the ability to cover the hammer whilst holstering (important for appendix carry). If you train regularly, the DA first shot is not at all a hindrance. So overall, if safety is important for you, DA/SA offers a better package than striker-fires.

Also, you have to understand that a lot of times, the action type is just a consequence of the gun selection. If I could get a striker-fired CZ75D PCR, you bet I would! But alas, it’s DA/SA. So, I carry a DA/SA. Not because I decided one day that I wanted to carry a hammer fires gun, but rather because I decided I wanted to carry a gun that did happen to be hammer fired (note the difference), and so I committed to training and mastering the DA/SA. And, side note, this is where those hybrid systems I mentioned earlier come into play. H&K’s LEM is a beautiful example.
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  #10  
Old 09-17-2019, 10:21 AM
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Some people want the double strike capability of a DA/SA pistol. Most folks say just cycle that offending round out of the chamber and fire the next round. What if for some reason the ammo you bought had high primers and the first hammer drop is a light strike due to the firing pin seating the primers instead of igniting. Usually that second strike capability may save the day.

A dude in the corner asks, what if it’s a dead primer and the second, third, fourth strike ends up getting our good guy killed? That’s the chance you have to take or maybe no. Either way, you have the DA and SA. Carry it Condition 2 all you have to do is deal with the DA crunch. Carry it Condition 1 you only have the safety to swipe, unless you have a Sig DA/SA w/o a safety.
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  #11  
Old 09-17-2019, 11:07 AM
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My two cents: DA/SA is the safest way to carry. Just practice DA and it becomes second nature. Buying and shooting a DAO revolver is the best way to get used to DA.
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Old 09-17-2019, 11:50 AM
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wife and i have sig for hd and love the decocker feature. chamber a round and leave it in da with no safety to think if/when that situation comes nobody wants to be in.
sa is way too light for initial jolt.
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Old 09-17-2019, 12:00 PM
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I think you need a historical perspective on the issue. Historically, many law enforcement officers carried DA/SA revolvers. A lesser number carried 1911s. (These are the days before the plastic fantastic guns). It was / is pretty well know that if you drop a series 70 1911 it can discharge. DA/SA revolvers are much less likely to have this problem. LEOS carried mostly DAO or DA/SA revolvers.

Then, either in reality or in Hollywood depictions, criminals start to become better armed, and cops want higher capacity firearms to deal with the threat.

So, if you are a gun designer, you have a potential market of revolver users that want higher capacity, but also want the familiarity of the DA/SA revolver action. Give the people what they want and voila, the DA/SA pistol market explodes.

Then Glock comes along and provides another alternative, instead of having a long heavy trigger pull followed by a short light one, you can now have a medium weight and medium length pull. Everyone rejoices.

Thirty some years later, people forget about the days where revolvers ruled the LE domain and question why in the world anyone would ever want a DA/SA action pistol in the first place.

Last edited by AFTII; 09-17-2019 at 12:02 PM..
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  #14  
Old 09-17-2019, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanGunner View Post
My two cents: DA/SA is the safest way to carry. Just practice DA and it becomes second nature. Buying and shooting a DAO revolver is the best way to get used to DA.
i would add that consistent dry fire practice (with or without a LaserLyte or other device) is also effective for DA trigger control.
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  #15  
Old 09-17-2019, 12:17 PM
tuna quesadilla tuna quesadilla is offline
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i would add that consistent dry fire practice (with or without a LaserLyte or other device) is also effective for DA trigger control.
Yes, and in my opinion the best of all, a rimfire conversion kit on a DA/SA pistol. Gets you live rounds on target for super cheap. Laser dry fire is good but not great because it has you stealing glances at the laser, rather than focusing 100% on your sight picture.
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  #16  
Old 09-17-2019, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by theLBC View Post
i would add that consistent dry fire practice (with or without a LaserLyte or other device) is also effective for DA trigger control.
If you have good DA trigger control, then, again, why do you need an SA pull? It's going back to KISS, especially, under stress, etc. of a gunfight.

That said, ...



The below historical stance is very insightful! Very enlightening...! Thank you!

Quote:
Originally Posted by AFTII View Post
I think you need a historical perspective on the issue. Historically, many law enforcement officers carried DA/SA revolvers. A lesser number carried 1911s. (These are the days before the plastic fantastic guns). It was / is pretty well know that if you drop a series 70 1911 it can discharge. DA/SA revolvers are much less likely to have this problem. LEOS carried mostly DAO or DA/SA revolvers.

.....

Thirty some years later, people forget about the days where revolvers ruled the LE domain and question why in the world anyone would ever want a DA/SA action pistol in the first place.

_
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  #17  
Old 09-17-2019, 12:28 PM
tuna quesadilla tuna quesadilla is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rodralig View Post
If you have good DA trigger control, then, again, why do you need an SA pull? It's going back to KISS, especially, under stress, etc. of a gunfight.

_
DA is fine but SA is empirically better when it comes to split times and precision. So if a person is willing to train to the point of mastering both, why in your opinion shouldn’t they use both? DA first shot for safe carry, SA follow-up shots for split times and precision. It’s a pretty simple formula.
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Old 09-17-2019, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by tuna quesadilla View Post
This is the correct answer.



Current gunfighting doctrine holds that manual safeties are generally not desirable or even permissible when handguns are used as a primary weapon, so SAO is ruled out.
A lot of guns come with safeties, so i doubt this statement.
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Old 09-17-2019, 12:38 PM
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Default In a striker fired world...

Ernest Langdon said it excellently...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m42IJIreRoc


Also echoed by Chris Baker of LuckyGunner.com...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IP8F_cwotM8
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Old 09-17-2019, 12:39 PM
tuna quesadilla tuna quesadilla is offline
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Originally Posted by thetruecheese View Post
A lot of guns come with safeties, so i doubt this statement.
The availability of handguns with manual safeties has nothing to do with what I said. Read again and try to use some critical thinking this time.

Where in the developed Western world are handguns with manual safety in widespread use as a primary weapon? How common is it, among agencies that issue handguns as a primary weapon, for those handguns to have manual safeties?
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Old 09-17-2019, 1:00 PM
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Originally Posted by tuna quesadilla View Post
Yes, and in my opinion the best of all, a rimfire conversion kit on a DA/SA pistol. Gets you live rounds on target for super cheap. Laser dry fire is good but not great because it has you stealing glances at the laser, rather than focusing 100% on your sight picture.
agreed, but laserlyte is a momentary laser triggered by the hammer or firing pin..
it just lights up the spot you're aimed at for a split second when the hammer falls, rather than being on all the time like a laser pointer.
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Old 09-17-2019, 1:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rodralig View Post
If you have good DA trigger control, then, again, why do you need an SA pull? It's going back to KISS, especially, under stress, etc. of a gunfight.

_
once you have confirmed a threat and fired that first DA shot, being in SA allows quicker follow ups or very rapid mag dumps if needed.
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Old 09-17-2019, 1:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuna quesadilla View Post
The availability of handguns with manual safeties has nothing to do with what I said. Read again and try to use some critical thinking this time.

Where in the developed Western world are handguns with manual safety in widespread use as a primary weapon? How common is it, among agencies that issue handguns as a primary weapon, for those handguns to have manual safeties?

You need to relax.

Last edited by thetruecheese; 09-17-2019 at 1:09 PM..
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  #24  
Old 09-17-2019, 1:11 PM
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To me, it seems that everything is a trade off. What kind of threats do you think you'll encounter? How important is that precision on the first shot?

Even carrying without one in the pipe and practicing "Israeli Draw"? My brother in law does that sometimes.

When he's working at my sister in law's day care, or when he's teaching the 3-4 year old's Sunday School class and little people are going to crawl all over him he just doesn't feel safe with one in the pipe even with a good retention holster that covers the trigger.

He drills it a LOT, which also means that even when he does carry with a round in the chamber he's *very* fast at getting to a single action first shot if he needs to.

I understand arguments against manual safeties and they have a lot of merit, but at the same time we're not all operators or even on-duty LEO. Each person has their own set of risks to balance and mitigate.
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Old 09-17-2019, 1:12 PM
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You need to relax.
Relax? Hell, Iím enjoying this.
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Old 09-17-2019, 1:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Jwalt View Post
To me, it seems that everything is a trade off. What kind of threats do you think you'll encounter? How important is that precision on the first shot?

Even carrying without one in the pipe and practicing "Israeli Draw"? My brother in law does that sometimes.

When he's working at my sister in law's day care, or when he's teaching the 3-4 year old's Sunday School class and little people are going to crawl all over him he just doesn't feel safe with one in the pipe even with a good retention holster that covers the trigger.

He drills it a LOT, which also means that even when he does carry with a round in the chamber he's *very* fast at getting to a single action first shot if he needs to.

I understand arguments against manual safeties and they have a lot of merit, but at the same time we're not all operators or even on-duty LEO. Each person has their own set of risks to balance and mitigate.
I generally oppose Israeli carry, but given your BILís very specific niche circumstances, I would say thatís a reasonable and prudent way to mitigate risk.
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Old 09-17-2019, 1:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jwalt View Post
To me, it seems that everything is a trade off. What kind of threats do you think you'll encounter? How important is that precision on the first shot?

Even carrying without one in the pipe and practicing "Israeli Draw"? My brother in law does that sometimes.

When he's working at my sister in law's day care, or when he's teaching the 3-4 year old's Sunday School class and little people are going to crawl all over him he just doesn't feel safe with one in the pipe even with a good retention holster that covers the trigger.

He drills it a LOT, which also means that even when he does carry with a round in the chamber he's *very* fast at getting to a single action first shot if he needs to.

I understand arguments against manual safeties and they have a lot of merit, but at the same time we're not all operators or even on-duty LEO. Each person has their own set of risks to balance and mitigate.
i agree. it is up to the shooter to decide what is best for him or her.

BUT, if you are smart, you would never pull the trigger on a loaded gun unless you wanted the gun to fire. AND, you want the gun to shoot every time you pull the trigger.

nothing is worse (imho) than a dry click when you are trying to save your life or the life of a loved one.

the idea that your gun is "on safe" so it is ok to pull the trigger, even when you don't want the gun to go off is silly to me.
if i don't want the gun to fire, i don't pull the trigger. i don't put the safety on and pull the trigger.
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Old 09-17-2019, 1:59 PM
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Originally Posted by theLBC View Post
i agree. it is up to the shooter to decide what is best for him or her.

BUT, if you are smart, you would never pull the trigger on a loaded gun unless you wanted the gun to fire. AND, you want the gun to shoot every time you pull the trigger.

nothing is worse (imho) than a dry click when you are trying to save your life or the life of a loved one.

the idea that your gun is "on safe" so it is ok to pull the trigger, even when you don't want the gun to go off is silly to me.
if i don't want the gun to fire, i don't pull the trigger. i don't put the safety on and pull the trigger.
I agree. Safeties do have their place IMO, particularly on long-guns moving through brush or dense woods. That doesn't apply to carrying a pistol.

But I don't have to carry anyone else's. I'm open to the possibility that maybe the person who wants a manual safety has some concern or reason I'm not aware of.
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Old 09-17-2019, 5:37 PM
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Exclamation

BEFORE "crunchentickers" (Bing it), it was the easiest transition for most LEA's from the revolver, to the higher capacity semi-auto.


And there's the short of it.
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Old 09-17-2019, 6:32 PM
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My 2 cents. You don't have to "get it". Options are always good. Don't like/understand it? Don't buy it.

Now that's "Keep it simple".
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Old 09-17-2019, 6:55 PM
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If you think about it, DA/SA and SAO cocked and locked just employ 2 different methods to accomplish the same thing: a deliberate first round downrange. Swipe the safety or pull through, it's just a tactile reminder to think.
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Old 09-17-2019, 7:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aca72 View Post
Ernest Langdon said it excellently...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m42IJIreRoc
Wow!!! That was well explained... Thank you for the link - I will need to file that in my reference folder.



Quote:
Originally Posted by DrewN View Post
If you think about it, DA/SA and SAO cocked and locked just employ 2 different methods to accomplish the same thing: a deliberate first round downrange. Swipe the safety or pull through, it's just a tactile reminder to think.
Absolutely...


Well, I guess I am doing fine because I still practice with my stock DA/SA HK USP Expert 45, which is my nightstand/HD gun.




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Old 09-17-2019, 7:41 PM
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I don't like DA/SA and having two different trigger pulls. I do like an external safety. Once I got used to it, cocked and locked stopped being scary.
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Old 09-17-2019, 8:55 PM
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Also consider the evolution of it all. If memory serves the SA/DA system was first invented back in the late 20's if I'm not mistaken. If I am, somebody please correct me.

Back then your main choices were revolver, SAO, or SA/DA. And with those three options it doesn't seem like such a strange idea. But when you add in the more modern striker system to the mix, it does leave a lot of people wondering why would anyone go with a SA/DA. Striker pistols, however, didn't come on the scene until the 70's...I think HK did a striker gun back in the 70's but it was really Glock in the 80's who had the first commercial success with it.
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Old 09-17-2019, 9:13 PM
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Originally Posted by L84CABO View Post
Also consider the evolution of it all. If memory serves the SA/DA system was first invented back in the late 20's if I'm not mistaken. If I am, somebody please correct me.

Back then your main choices were revolver, SAO, or SA/DA. And with those three options it doesn't seem like such a strange idea. But when you add in the more modern striker system to the mix, it does leave a lot of people wondering why would anyone go with a SA/DA. Striker pistols, however, didn't come on the scene until the 70's...I think HK did a striker gun back in the 70's but it was really Glock in the 80's who had the first commercial success with it.
Well close but not quite. The first striker fired handgun was the Borchardt back in the late 1800's. Luger and Browning also had striker fired guns in the early 1900's.

Striker fired guns have been around for well over 100 year's, and many of the were successful long before Glock switched from curtain rods to handguns.
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Old 09-17-2019, 11:03 PM
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Glad you asked this question OP. I always wondered the same. Why all the different choices, and DA/SA being the most confusing/least obvious.
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Old 09-18-2019, 2:56 AM
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Also appreciate the question.

I like the 1911 action best, followed by striker-fired.

But intellectually, I believe that DA/SA is safer to carry. I don’t like it as well though. Then again, the chances that I will ever face a quick combat situation are very, very low. I completely understand how some cops go their entire career without firing their sidearm. In which case, safe carry should logically take the priority over range trigger comfort.
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Old 09-18-2019, 5:34 AM
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Military likes safety.
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Old 09-18-2019, 6:10 AM
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If you only shoot yourself,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQ8XPg0KNFE

then the liability is on you. However if you are in charge of an organization, and one of your employees shoots himself, or worse, someone else, you have transferred cost and liability to the organization.

Because minimizing scandal is the second rule of Government, and probably for all large organizations, organizations are more interested in the protection of itself than the protection of the individuals within the organization. And, if you don't know, your organization considers you disposable in the attainment of its goals. So while you may argue speed, accuracy, and effectivity as important criteria for your choice of trigger mechanism, organization's priorities will be different. And these priorities clearly have driven the evolution firing mechanisms. The dangerous and highly accident prone mechanisms of the past are not acceptable as organizational issue in today's world. But you can shoot yourself in the hand, in the head, and as long as it is your liability, and your liability alone, who really cares?

I believe that negligent discharges are why the squeeze cocker disappeared from the market. If you have never handled one of these, to fire the pistol, you squeezed the grip first. The front strap grip safety had to be debressed to make the trigger mechanism work. So, squeeze grip, pull trigger. Or, squeeze grip and don't pull trigger. Having played with one of these I found, that if you pulled the trigger without squeezing the grip, the mechanism would not fire. Great, that is the way it was designed. However, if you pulled the trigger first and then squeezed the grip, the pistol would fire. But that should not be a problem, the sequence is obvious and simple, right? But I think it was a problem. I believe in times of stress enough Military and Lawmen got the sequence confused. They firstly pulled the trigger, and then, remembering they were supposed to squeeze the grip to make the piece ready, they squeezed the grip, causing a discharge.




Another great design idea on the ash heap of history because the operators were human and got confused about whether they should pat their head and rub their belly, or rub their belly and pat their head.
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Old 09-18-2019, 6:25 AM
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Hhhmmm... The rationale for the DA/SA then becomes - it was first a product of evolution, until folks started realizing the perceived benefits of another layer of safety.

Not really far off from how I understood it... Although, Langdon's video, again, was very enlightening...

Okay - time to take out the CZ Shadow 2 and play with it...

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