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Calguns LEOs LEOs; chat, kibitz and relax. Non-LEOs; have a questions for a cop? Ask it here, in a CIVIL manner. |
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#41
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you guys have convinced me, but a great problem remains.
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"I came into this world with someone else's blood on me and I don't mind leaving the same way..." ***looking to buy in great condition yugo sks*** |
#42
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You still see this as a way for criminals to get a free out. They won't. Trust me. Indiana will still find ways to protect the LEO community like they have done in the past, and some doofus who claims the act the police were engaging in was illegal (which is a stipulation in the defense statute) will be filtered out pretty quickly. This allows the innocent citizen the right to not get his teeth kicked in by a rogue officer, and not get a felony on his record for his troubles.
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NRA lifetime member 2AF Defender member When did I go from being a "citizen" to a "taxpayer"? Jon Lovitz: ‘I can’t wait to go to a hospital run by the DMV!’ Peace, love, and heavy weapons. Sometimes you have to be insistent." - David Lee Roth |
#43
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Again, what is needed is the proper application of the existing laws. This bill will not have the intended consequences.
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The thing to do, my friends, is to admit to your fate with Christian resignation and live bravely until your appointed time." - Lee Marvin, "The Spikes Gang" Last edited by biochembruin; 03-21-2012 at 9:48 AM.. |
#44
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The solution is on the books. Perhaps if there is a problem in Indiana, some federal oversight is warranted, as happened in Los Angeles. Please remember, there is no law which gives officers blanket immunity. Only certain diplomats enjoy such privileges.
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The thing to do, my friends, is to admit to your fate with Christian resignation and live bravely until your appointed time." - Lee Marvin, "The Spikes Gang" |
#45
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I am not in any way saying a person being lawfully arrested should have any right to fight back. I don't think enough criminals are arrested, but when the innocent are made guilty by the acts of others with no legal means of defense, that is a bad system. In many Indiana cases, judges did not allow the fact that the officer was either prosecuted or otherwise punished to be used as a mitigating circumstance for defense. All the jury knew was that person 'A' was charged with striking officer 'B', and here is evidence 'C'. Since the law did not allow for the person to defend themselves, it was, by definition, illegal. I'm sure plenty of criminals will attempt to use this law to their advantage. You act as though this would be the ONE time they did that. In this case, the person would have to prove to a jury that they believed the arrest or action was illegal. Up to this point, they didn't even have that.
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NRA lifetime member 2AF Defender member When did I go from being a "citizen" to a "taxpayer"? Jon Lovitz: ‘I can’t wait to go to a hospital run by the DMV!’ Peace, love, and heavy weapons. Sometimes you have to be insistent." - David Lee Roth |
#46
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As said above, the proposed law simply exonerates the "victim" if he uses force to resist what he thinks is an unlawful action - but in the meantime it does nothing to protect him from inevitable injury or death from the escalation of force. It's not a prophylactic measure at all. However, shifting the monetary burden from the City/County/State/Fed to the individual LEO for engaging in known unlawful conduct would be preventative. No longer insulated by the deep pockets of his/her employer, folks are more apt to be sensitive about willfully trampling the civil rights of citizens.
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Rest in Peace - Andrew Breitbart. A true student of Alinsky. 90% of winning is simply showing up. "Let's not lose sight of how much we reduced our carbon footprint by telecommuting this protest." 383green NRA Benefactor Member |
#47
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As to your second point regarding officers personal liability, the law already exists. http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/1983 If an officer is found to be acting outside of the law or department policy, the officer is personally liable for civil damages. It happens all the time.
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The thing to do, my friends, is to admit to your fate with Christian resignation and live bravely until your appointed time." - Lee Marvin, "The Spikes Gang" |
#48
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It seems, however, that people need to be more educated on police procedures. It is helpful to know how LEOs operate in order to know how to interact with them and stay within the law.
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Universal truth is not measured in mass appeal -Immortal Technique |
#49
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Please note - I agree with you that the proposed law in the OP is a poor idea...
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However, if the Sheriff wasn't indemnified by the County, the prospect of losing his house simply for being stubborn might have influenced his decision. I hope that I'm making sense, here....
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Rest in Peace - Andrew Breitbart. A true student of Alinsky. 90% of winning is simply showing up. "Let's not lose sight of how much we reduced our carbon footprint by telecommuting this protest." 383green NRA Benefactor Member |
#50
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The thing to do, my friends, is to admit to your fate with Christian resignation and live bravely until your appointed time." - Lee Marvin, "The Spikes Gang" |
#51
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I agree completely.
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Rest in Peace - Andrew Breitbart. A true student of Alinsky. 90% of winning is simply showing up. "Let's not lose sight of how much we reduced our carbon footprint by telecommuting this protest." 383green NRA Benefactor Member |
#52
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I think that the title of the thread shows part of the problem we have in this country in regards to leo's and the public. A bill crafted, regardless if poorly written, to protect citizens from unlawful conduct by the police is automatically branded anti-police.
IMO all the hype I read about more officers are going to be injured or killed as a result of this bill is the same hyperbole we heard when Florida was in the process of going shall issue for CCW and the results didn't reflect that. Are there other avenues to pursue to hold officers accountable? Sure, making them personally liable for their actions, as someone else pointed out is a good way, however, that does not help someone such as Cara Knott when she was killed by Craig Peyer while he was on duty. Peyer was convicted and sentanced but Cara is still dead, the proposed law would not only have allowed her to protect herself from the unlawful action by Peyer but would also save her from prosecution for assault of a police officer. Even the Cato Institute's report "Overkill Rise of the Paramilitary Police Raids in America" shows examples of police serving no-knock warrants on the wrong house and then charging the homeowner's for capitol murder of police officers for defending themselves against at the time unknown assailants. I have been an leo for 14yrs now and I am starting to see more and more officers thinking they can do whatever they want because they are leo's with officer safety or who is going to bust me I am a cop mentality. I think what it all comes down to IMO is that the citizens of Indiana will have one more avenue to keep unlawful actions by police in check and that does not sit well with the leo community. We are servants of the public and are accountable to the public, not the other way around.
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Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes...Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man. --Cesare, Marquis of Beccaria, "On Crimes and Punishment" |
#53
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What sort of law enforcement do you do? It seems odd that your comment seems to suggest you are unaware that officers are already personally liable for any illegal action.
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The thing to do, my friends, is to admit to your fate with Christian resignation and live bravely until your appointed time." - Lee Marvin, "The Spikes Gang" |
#54
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14 yrs in federal law enforcement working the border, currently working a narco/concealed human detector dog. How many have you worked in law enforcement?
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Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes...Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man. --Cesare, Marquis of Beccaria, "On Crimes and Punishment" |
#55
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Troll does not seem like a bad word. It is a nice way of informing fellow bloggers that an individual may be "trolling" to see if anyone will bite on the troller's comments and start an inappropriate conversation. We should be able to point out trollers with the simple, common, appropriate word, "Troll." Just my humble opinion.
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"Police, at all times, should maintain a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent upon every citizen." -- Sir Robert Peel |
#56
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I have testified numerous times as a court expert on use of force. I believe that qualifies me to understand how this law can be applied.
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The thing to do, my friends, is to admit to your fate with Christian resignation and live bravely until your appointed time." - Lee Marvin, "The Spikes Gang" |
#57
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Apparently the Governor of Indiana also believes there is an issue since he signed it into law on the 20th of March 2012 (according to the Indiana General Assembly website. I still believe it's the same hyperbole of cops getting gunned down in the streets and blood running in the gutter when Florida went shall issue. Only time will tell.
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Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes...Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man. --Cesare, Marquis of Beccaria, "On Crimes and Punishment" |
#58
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The thing to do, my friends, is to admit to your fate with Christian resignation and live bravely until your appointed time." - Lee Marvin, "The Spikes Gang" |
#59
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that sound you hear at 3A.M.is me racking my 12 gauge If you are a LEO You better sing out. If you have the wrong house too bad for you you. Come through that door you will be leaving a hell of a lot quicker. Anyone attempting to gain entry into my house at that time is assumed to be a BG
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http://i1150.photobucket.com/albums/...0fa5fefab1.jpghttp://i1150.photobucket.com/albums/...Untitled-2.jpghttp://i1150.photobucket.com/albums/...tar76148_1.jpg "Everyone has two lives,the second one starts when you realize you only have one " |
#61
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bad arguement
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Calguns and NRA life member. Liberty is always dangerous, but it is the safest thing we have. Last edited by Tack; 03-23-2012 at 6:15 AM.. |
#62
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Having read this entire thread, I now have a question for Biochembruin.
Given the examples of no-knock entries and other similar illegal police actions described in this thread, plus the description of what is actually happening with the immunity statutes in Indiana, what would be your specific solution to stop them, if not this bill?
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"San Francisco Liberal With A Gun" F***ing with people's heads, one gun show at a time. Hallelujah! http://www.sanfranciscoliberalwithagun.com (reloading info w/ videos) http://www.liberalsguncorner.com (podcast) http://www.youtube.com/sfliberal (YouTube channel) ---------------------------------------------------- To be a true Liberal, you must be 100% pro-Second Amendment. Anything less is inconsistent with liberalism. |
#63
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Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes...Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man. --Cesare, Marquis of Beccaria, "On Crimes and Punishment" |
#64
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I need help understanding the need for 3:00AM knock one time and break the door in all in the same breath. If a hostage situation OK but the rest can be handled differently.
Watching the bad guy and arresting him at a stop light is a lot better than hitting the wrong house. I live on a ranch and you would not believe the wrong address for fire and police up here. I am more scared of the police at night than I am of the bad guy. I think this whole SWAT team thing is over used because they need to justify the group. I use WACO Texas as an example. These people could have been arrested as they left the compound. Using tanks on American citizens is out of line period. I tried to find a single use of automatic weapons on Police and found LA and that was it. I probably missed some but I think how we respond as police is wrong. Police if you do not want the job get another one you don't rate in the top ten dangerous jobs in the US hell mine as a rancher farmer rates a lot higher than policeman. Those of you that say you don't break the law you should look again there are laws you break they are just not enforced yet. Just my thoughts and I think we need police just change the way they do business. Last edited by Manolito; 03-23-2012 at 7:58 AM.. |
#65
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NRA lifetime member 2AF Defender member When did I go from being a "citizen" to a "taxpayer"? Jon Lovitz: ‘I can’t wait to go to a hospital run by the DMV!’ Peace, love, and heavy weapons. Sometimes you have to be insistent." - David Lee Roth |
#66
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Read the law, the original post, and the news article and show me where there is anything saying "no knock warrant." The law is much broader than merely applying to warrant service.
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The thing to do, my friends, is to admit to your fate with Christian resignation and live bravely until your appointed time." - Lee Marvin, "The Spikes Gang" |
#67
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For all this talk about "no knock warrants," I've never seen one in all my years of law enforcement. In fact, CA has no provision for prior judicial approval to dispense with knock and notice requirements. In practical terms, there is no such thing as a "no knock warrant" in CA.
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The thing to do, my friends, is to admit to your fate with Christian resignation and live bravely until your appointed time." - Lee Marvin, "The Spikes Gang" |
#68
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The thing to do, my friends, is to admit to your fate with Christian resignation and live bravely until your appointed time." - Lee Marvin, "The Spikes Gang" |
#69
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So I have to ask, what is the difference between a non-LEO reasonably believing that an action is illegal and an LEO reasonably believing that an action is illegal that makes the difference between you having probable cause to detain and arrest and the non-LEO being able to defend himself?
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NRA Benefactor Life Member / CRPA Life Member / SAF Life Member Calguns.net an incorported entity - President. The Calguns Shooting Sports Assoc. - Vice President. The California Rifle & Pistol Assoc. - Director. DONATE TO NRA-ILA, CGSSA, AND CRPAF NOW! Opinions posted in this account are my own and unless specifically stated as such are not the approved position of Calguns.net, CGSSA or CRPA. |
#70
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Kudos for the proposal to codify the rights of the American Citizen to defend themselves against home invasions...Should be nationwide regardless who you are defending yourself against in your own home when you are doing nothing wrong!!
Last edited by killathrilla; 03-23-2012 at 9:34 AM.. |
#71
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And I previously explained how reasonable belief applied in this case. When I said "thinks" I was trying to emphasise a point. No need to quote out of context.
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The thing to do, my friends, is to admit to your fate with Christian resignation and live bravely until your appointed time." - Lee Marvin, "The Spikes Gang" |
#72
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NRA lifetime member 2AF Defender member When did I go from being a "citizen" to a "taxpayer"? Jon Lovitz: ‘I can’t wait to go to a hospital run by the DMV!’ Peace, love, and heavy weapons. Sometimes you have to be insistent." - David Lee Roth |
#73
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I don't think you understand what an affirmative legal defense is.
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The thing to do, my friends, is to admit to your fate with Christian resignation and live bravely until your appointed time." - Lee Marvin, "The Spikes Gang" |
#74
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Maybe not, but I'm not some vaguely defined "defense expert on use of force" with intimate knowledge of legal precedence and it's application based on experience, I'm a common citizen that has to live his life every day under the circumstances that the same citizen in question that this law would cover has to live them. What I do understand is you are advocating a class-based system. An upper class group which is able to make decisions based on a pre-requisite of subjective interpretation, and a lower class where the group is denied the same decision under identical circumstances due to a lack of the pre-requisite.
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NRA lifetime member 2AF Defender member When did I go from being a "citizen" to a "taxpayer"? Jon Lovitz: ‘I can’t wait to go to a hospital run by the DMV!’ Peace, love, and heavy weapons. Sometimes you have to be insistent." - David Lee Roth |
#75
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Ignorance of something is not an insult. If someone told me I didn't understand the finer points of medical practice I would not be hurt. My limits of knowledge would be taken into account when expressing my opinions on medicine.
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The thing to do, my friends, is to admit to your fate with Christian resignation and live bravely until your appointed time." - Lee Marvin, "The Spikes Gang" |
#76
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NRA lifetime member 2AF Defender member When did I go from being a "citizen" to a "taxpayer"? Jon Lovitz: ‘I can’t wait to go to a hospital run by the DMV!’ Peace, love, and heavy weapons. Sometimes you have to be insistent." - David Lee Roth |
#77
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The thing to do, my friends, is to admit to your fate with Christian resignation and live bravely until your appointed time." - Lee Marvin, "The Spikes Gang" Last edited by biochembruin; 03-23-2012 at 2:27 PM.. |
#78
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If the warrant was incorrect and the homeowner reacted, or the person was illegally assaulted and fought back, then yes, they were ALL innocent, but still prosecuted. Why is this so hard for you to grasp this concept? It would seem to be relatively simple: An incorrectly served warrant at the incorrect address would, by default mean the person in the home was obviously innocent of the crime the warrant was there to be served for, and an illegal attack by a police officer on ANYONE would, by default, make that person innocent of the crime of assault in return, had it not been a police officer who initiated the incident. Obviously a LAWFUL entry or a LAWFUL detainment and physical altercation would, by default, not involve an innocent party at all times.
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NRA lifetime member 2AF Defender member When did I go from being a "citizen" to a "taxpayer"? Jon Lovitz: ‘I can’t wait to go to a hospital run by the DMV!’ Peace, love, and heavy weapons. Sometimes you have to be insistent." - David Lee Roth |
#79
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Let's take this one more step:
Officer Bill and a small team is serving a warrant on the correct address. The person involved in the warrant is also at the address. The person is the cousin of the homeowner. The homeowner is unaware there is a warrant for his cousin's arrest, but is allowing him to sleep in his home for a short time. The team arrives, feels that the subject is dangerous and likely to flee, so they decide to proceed with the entry. The homeowner is jolted awake, see's armed men running into his home, has legitimate concerns for the well-being of his family, grabs his firearm (assuming he is also not wanted for anything and the firerarm is "clean") and shoots. Officer Bill is hit, but not killed. The homeowner is also shot and survives. Is this not the situation where a reasonable person would rightly assume something was wrong and that he needed to react appropriately? Would this also be a situation where prosecuting the homeowner was wrong? Yet, under Indiana law, this type of occurrance DID happen and there WERE prosecutions. You act as though the homeowners should make sure they are proven to be a threat and NOT police before they are allowed to take action. If a stranger walks up to you and throws a punch, are you required to request proper ID to verify the aggressor is not a police officer before trying to not get hit?
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NRA lifetime member 2AF Defender member When did I go from being a "citizen" to a "taxpayer"? Jon Lovitz: ‘I can’t wait to go to a hospital run by the DMV!’ Peace, love, and heavy weapons. Sometimes you have to be insistent." - David Lee Roth |
#80
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What I said,
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"Police, at all times, should maintain a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent upon every citizen." -- Sir Robert Peel |
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