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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 07-15-2010, 3:53 PM
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  #2  
Old 07-15-2010, 3:58 PM
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It doesnt matter if hes armed. First, you couldnt see if he was or wasnt and he said, "Ill shoot you" Game over!
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Old 07-15-2010, 4:00 PM
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Originally Posted by compulsivegunbuyer View Post
He said he hates guns, and would never own one. He even said he felt sorry for someone who was so desperate they felt they had to rob peoples houses. I just don't get that. Someone breaks in, steals from you, and then threatens you. They get no sympathy from me.
Wow.
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Old 07-15-2010, 4:08 PM
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Castle Doctrine:

CA Penal Code 198.5.
Any person using force intended or likely to cause death or great bodily injury within his or her residence shall be presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily injury to self, family, or a member of the household when that force is used against another person, not a member of the family or household, who unlawfully and forcibly enters or has unlawfully and forcibly entered the residence and the person using the force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry occurred.
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Old 07-15-2010, 4:13 PM
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The perp had a broken into a house where it would be reasonable assumed was occupied...by sleeping people or awake ones.
This implies that the perp was willing to face a struggle or fight.
This is a legal shoot on this fact alone.
The threat of great bodily injury or harm was then given by the perp, who indicated he had a gun and would shoot.
You would be twice-legal to shoot this guy.

Boom boom, out go the lights!

(Note that the perp seemed confident the home owner would be unarmed, or if armed, unwilling to shoot. I say experienced felon. Who may come back for more in the future.)
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Old 07-15-2010, 4:14 PM
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Your neighbor is lucky it was a bluff. I don't think I'd like having my life in the balance of someone's whim.

"I'll shoot you" would = my gun going BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! and BLAM!
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Old 07-15-2010, 4:18 PM
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Originally Posted by compulsivegunbuyer View Post
I suggested he get a gun and some basic training. He said he hates guns, and would never own one. He even said he felt sorry for someone who was so desperate they felt they had to rob peoples houses.
Perhaps offer to take a look at his residence to offer advice on how to better secure and protect. Offer to do some role playing to help him think through some potential situations and offer some options/scenarios. Work your way up to the "I'm taking your wife/child/loved one with me so that you don't call the cops" scenario. Now it is decision time, watch your loved one disappear through the door with dirtbag; or put one in his brain?

At some point, our 'right to defend' becomes 'responsibility to defend'. Your neighbor needs introduced to this concept.
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Old 07-15-2010, 4:24 PM
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Yah. Someone breaks into my apartment, first thing they see is the TLR-2 lighting them up like a Christmas tree, the next thing they see is muzzle flash.
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Old 07-15-2010, 4:27 PM
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I'd rather shoot the bastids, but a good sized dog works good for interior security.
Some yahoo tried to slip into my house early one morning and Sadie, our Pitbull, I'm sure, surprised the crap out of him.
He got the locked front screen door open and was apparently messing with the door chain when she ran to the door barking like crazy waking everybody up.
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Old 07-15-2010, 4:36 PM
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To the OP, where did this happen? Were the police called?

If a perp walks through an open door or climbs in an open window, does that change the castle doctrine? In this part of the bay area very few people have air conditioning, therefore most people leave windows and back doors open at night.
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Castle Doctrine:

CA Penal Code 198.5.
Any person using force intended or likely to cause death or great bodily injury within his or her residence shall be presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily injury to self, family, or a member of the household when that force is used against another person, not a member of the family or household, who unlawfully and forcibly enters or has unlawfully and forcibly entered the residence and the person using the force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry occurred.
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Old 07-15-2010, 4:38 PM
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It still requires force to remove a screen or to open a door, might not take a lot of force, but it still takes it .
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  #12  
Old 07-15-2010, 4:46 PM
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Originally Posted by anthonyca View Post
If a perp walks through an open door or climbs in an open window, does that change the castle doctrine? In this part of the bay area very few people have air conditioning, therefore most people leave windows and back doors open at night.
Removing a screen should be good enough. Get a locking screen door. Bad guy going past that is good enough. Sac PD did not arrest, and Sac DA did not file charges against a homeowner in this scenario: Bad guy removed window screen, had one leg inside the house and one leg out. Homeowner blew badguy out the window with shotgun...justified.
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  #13  
Old 07-15-2010, 4:50 PM
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The reality is, it doesn't matter what YOU think, what WE think or what any attorney will tell you. What does matter is what the JURY thinks if you are put on trial.
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Old 07-15-2010, 4:51 PM
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Originally Posted by CalCop View Post
Removing a screen should be good enough. Get a locking screen door. Bad guy going past that is good enough. Sac PD did not arrest, and Sac DA did not file charges against a homeowner in this scenario: Bad guy removed window screen, had one leg inside the house and one leg out. Homeowner blew badguy out the window with shotgun...justified.
Great story.
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  #15  
Old 07-15-2010, 4:57 PM
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just remember to shoot until the threat is stopped. don't get lulled into thinking 1 shot will take a criminal down. the human body and adrenaline can be a powerful and unexpected thing.
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Old 07-15-2010, 5:05 PM
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Originally Posted by flyinverted View Post
The reality is, it doesn't matter what YOU think, what WE think or what any attorney will tell you. What does matter is what the JURY thinks if you are put on trial.
Yes, although if it is a situation where there was a clear threat-someone who breaks in during the hours when people are home, there is no evidence that you had the perp subdued and no statements made by you that you felt anything but threatened, I would be more worried about your safety if you didn't shoot more than your safety in front of a jury of your peers.

Most trials without merit come down to who the jury feels sorry for. A scumbag with a sheet a mile long vs. the clean-cut homeowner who was mortally afraid...it just doesn't seem like much of a contest.

I'll take my chances against 12 of my peers vs. 1 scumbag intent on doing my family harm. Ventilation with 8 rounds of 00 buck seems appropriate.
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  #17  
Old 07-15-2010, 5:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CalCop View Post
Castle Doctrine:

CA Penal Code 198.5.
Any person using force intended or likely to cause death or great bodily injury within his or her residence shall be presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily injury to self, family, or a member of the household when that force is used against another person, not a member of the family or household, who unlawfully and forcibly enters or has unlawfully and forcibly entered the residence and the person using the force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry occurred.

. .. . . . . IF . .. .. you can get the police to write it up as such and .. .. IF . . . . the DA will prosecute it as such.
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  #18  
Old 07-15-2010, 5:51 PM
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I was under the impression that Kalifornia did not have "Castle Doctrine." Is it just something that's written in the penal code just to make home owners feel better or are there examples of people using it as a successful defense?
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  #19  
Old 07-15-2010, 6:06 PM
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So many people ask about confronting an intruder IN their homes. I'm a BIG believer in preventing the entry into the home in the first place.

Cameras around the exterior, and a (4/8/9/16)-channel DVR. Not high resolution, expensive cameras. Simple $30.00 black and white cameras WITH AUDIO (Harbor Freight Tools has them.) They are all you need to SEE and HEAR what is going on OUTside of any of your doors or windows, assuming the DVR offers 16 channels of AUDIO. Many of them only offer one channel, while the mid-range models offer four channels of audio. If that is the case, put one audio camera on each side of your home.

The reason I suggest cameras with AUDIO is because if someone reaches for a camera to change it's view or tamper with it, you'll HEAR it. That alone may be enough to awaken you, and you'll know exactly which camera is being touched!

Plunk down the money, and get the 16 channel VIDEO/16-channel AUDIO stand-alone DVR with on screen motion detection, or a DVR card that will be run in a dedicated P.C. plugged into a heavy-duty UPS. Be sure your cameras and monitor are ALSO powered by a UPS. You might run a separate circuit to them and power it from a central location in your garage or attic. You don't want your cameras to shut down during a power outage. When the zombies start scratching at your windows, you'll want to know about it BEFORE they enter your home!

Place a nice 19" flat panel monitor and two speakers next to your bed, perhaps on the nightstand. Sure, the Harley riding by might awaken you, that cat fight might also, but believe me. After a few restless nights, you'll quickly learn what noises are "normal" and what noises will trigger a jolt of adrenaline. How many people sleep near a train track where a freight train passes by at night? It isn't loud noises that awaken you. It is "strange" noises.

True, they are low-res cameras, and unless the BG is right in front of the camera, you probably won't capture a nice image of his face, but if the GOAL is to know that SOMEONE is climbing into your kitchen window, a cheap camera will give you enough of an image to determine this.

You can even put some of the cameras outside, and a few more INside, so you can quickly scan the main interior rooms for a trespasser BEFORE you exit your bedroom. Don't mess with those stupid IR lights. Get small 7-watt nightlights and plug them in around your house. That will be enough light for you to see an image on the screen.

X-10 motion sensors are good for letting you know that someone (or something) just walked along the paving stones along the side of your house. They HELP, but video and audio are much better.

Remember: A bluff is almost as good as the real thing. SIGNS at the front door and at the end of the driveway warning that the property is under "24-Hour Video and Audio Surveillance" will deter nearly ALL home invaders. They'll not risk it, when the house down the street advertises no such obstacle.

Another good bluff that people often overlook is to simply place a pair of LARGE dog dishes near the rear door, on the front porch or wherever a burglar might see them. Put some lava rock stones in the bowl. NO burglar is going to pick one up and bite into it to see if it is real dog food! Tie a length of STRONG chain to a tree and leave the loose end visible with a LARGE dog collar hooked to it. Clean the bowls once in a while. IT WORKS!

Cameras watching the exterior doors and windows along with the audio from those cameras will go a long way toward preventing a meeting with the silhouette in the kitchen at 4: 00 A.M.!

Last edited by gravedigger; 07-15-2010 at 6:12 PM..
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  #20  
Old 07-15-2010, 6:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Scratch705 View Post
just remember to shoot until the threat is stopped. don't get lulled into thinking 1 shot will take a criminal down. the human body and adrenaline can be a powerful and unexpected thing.
I dont think that would be a problem for most people. It's possible that in my case the reaction would be like: "OH S#&%! Bad guy at 12 o'clock!" - BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG click click click click...
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Old 07-15-2010, 6:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyinverted View Post
The reality is, it doesn't matter what YOU think, what WE think or what any attorney will tell you. What does matter is what the JURY thinks if you are put on trial.
I agreed, and in this state, most jurors are liberal, they will sympathy and protect the criminals.
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  #22  
Old 07-15-2010, 7:31 PM
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If you shoot....

Kill him.

You want only ONE version of the events.
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  #23  
Old 07-15-2010, 7:54 PM
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To the OP. What's your neighbors address? I can use a TV.
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  #24  
Old 07-15-2010, 8:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gravedigger View Post
So many people ask about confronting an intruder IN their homes. I'm a BIG believer in preventing the entry into the home in the first place.

Cameras around the exterior, and a (4/8/9/16)-channel DVR. Not high resolution, expensive cameras. Simple $30.00 black and white cameras WITH AUDIO (Harbor Freight Tools has them.) They are all you need to SEE and HEAR what is going on OUTside of any of your doors or windows, assuming the DVR offers 16 channels of AUDIO. Many of them only offer one channel, while the mid-range models offer four channels of audio. If that is the case, put one audio camera on each side of your home.

The reason I suggest cameras with AUDIO is because if someone reaches for a camera to change it's view or tamper with it, you'll HEAR it. That alone may be enough to awaken you, and you'll know exactly which camera is being touched!

Plunk down the money, and get the 16 channel VIDEO/16-channel AUDIO stand-alone DVR with on screen motion detection, or a DVR card that will be run in a dedicated P.C. plugged into a heavy-duty UPS. Be sure your cameras and monitor are ALSO powered by a UPS. You might run a separate circuit to them and power it from a central location in your garage or attic. You don't want your cameras to shut down during a power outage. When the zombies start scratching at your windows, you'll want to know about it BEFORE they enter your home!

Place a nice 19" flat panel monitor and two speakers next to your bed, perhaps on the nightstand. Sure, the Harley riding by might awaken you, that cat fight might also, but believe me. After a few restless nights, you'll quickly learn what noises are "normal" and what noises will trigger a jolt of adrenaline. How many people sleep near a train track where a freight train passes by at night? It isn't loud noises that awaken you. It is "strange" noises.

True, they are low-res cameras, and unless the BG is right in front of the camera, you probably won't capture a nice image of his face, but if the GOAL is to know that SOMEONE is climbing into your kitchen window, a cheap camera will give you enough of an image to determine this.

You can even put some of the cameras outside, and a few more INside, so you can quickly scan the main interior rooms for a trespasser BEFORE you exit your bedroom. Don't mess with those stupid IR lights. Get small 7-watt nightlights and plug them in around your house. That will be enough light for you to see an image on the screen.

X-10 motion sensors are good for letting you know that someone (or something) just walked along the paving stones along the side of your house. They HELP, but video and audio are much better.

Remember: A bluff is almost as good as the real thing. SIGNS at the front door and at the end of the driveway warning that the property is under "24-Hour Video and Audio Surveillance" will deter nearly ALL home invaders. They'll not risk it, when the house down the street advertises no such obstacle.

Another good bluff that people often overlook is to simply place a pair of LARGE dog dishes near the rear door, on the front porch or wherever a burglar might see them. Put some lava rock stones in the bowl. NO burglar is going to pick one up and bite into it to see if it is real dog food! Tie a length of STRONG chain to a tree and leave the loose end visible with a LARGE dog collar hooked to it. Clean the bowls once in a while. IT WORKS!

Cameras watching the exterior doors and windows along with the audio from those cameras will go a long way toward preventing a meeting with the silhouette in the kitchen at 4: 00 A.M.!
Thank you. Good stuff!
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Old 07-15-2010, 8:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Lead-Thrower View Post
I dont think that would be a problem for most people. It's possible that in my case the reaction would be like: "OH S#&%! Bad guy at 12 o'clock!" - BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG click click click click...
Your choice of a DA/SA/DAO disgusts me.

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Old 07-15-2010, 8:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gravedigger View Post
Cameras around the exterior, and a (4/8/9/16)-channel DVR. Not high resolution, expensive cameras. Simple $30.00 black and white cameras WITH AUDIO (Harbor Freight Tools has them.) They are all you need to SEE and HEAR what is going on OUTside of any of your doors or windows, assuming the DVR offers 16 channels of AUDIO. Many of them only offer one channel, while the mid-range models offer four channels of audio. If that is the case, put one audio camera on each side of your home.
What is the legality of recording audio? I know it's legal to record video, but what about audio in this case?
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Old 07-15-2010, 8:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brundelfly View Post
If you shoot....

Kill him.

You want only ONE version of the events.
This, also dead men dont sue.
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Old 07-15-2010, 8:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CalCop View Post
Castle Doctrine:

CA Penal Code 198.5.
Any person using force intended or likely to cause death or great bodily injury within his or her residence shall be presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily injury to self, family, or a member of the household when that force is used against another person, not a member of the family or household, who unlawfully and forcibly enters or has unlawfully and forcibly entered the residence and the person using the force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry occurred.
You forgot the other important part...

CA Penal Code 199

Quote:
199. The homicide appearing to be justifiable or excusable, the
person indicted must, upon his trial, be fully acquitted and
discharged.
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Old 07-15-2010, 8:53 PM
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while i agree on the home security..DONT CHEAP OUT on CCTV. if you see a BG looking around before entering via cctv, i can already see the prosecutor asking why you didn't call 911 if you saw someone wandering on your property. also, cameras might have IR illuminators though they might not be back focused properly (focused during day/blurry at night)for your surroundings. this can be bad if you can not properly identify what is going on (in regards to self defense). also avoid the costco/frys DVRs because i find lots of bugs with those systems.

if you were to put up some cameras make sure they have a decent lux rating, are a decent resolution (704x480), rated for you intended use (interior/exterior), a sensor flood light couldnt hurt either, and most importantly...dont use aluminum shield cable..
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Old 07-15-2010, 8:56 PM
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You had me at "I'll Shoot you."
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Old 07-15-2010, 9:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renski View Post
while i agree on the home security..DONT CHEAP OUT on CCTV. if you see a BG looking around before entering via cctv, i can already see the prosecutor asking why you didn't call 911 if you saw someone wandering on your property. also, cameras might have IR illuminators though they might not be back focused properly (focused during day/blurry at night)for your surroundings. this can be bad if you can not properly identify what is going on (in regards to self defense). also avoid the costco/frys DVRs because i find lots of bugs with those systems.

if you were to put up some cameras make sure they have a decent lux rating, are a decent resolution (704x480), rated for you intended use (interior/exterior), a sensor flood light couldnt hurt either, and most importantly...dont use aluminum shield cable..
I have cctv camera system and I rarely watch in real time. Its mainly in case something does happen I can go back and see. 99.9% of the time I wouldnt know a BG is coming until he's already in. I got mine from costco and its excellent. Never any problems, and very clear. The motion detection is outstanding
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  #32  
Old 07-15-2010, 11:47 PM
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Your choice of a DA/SA/DAO disgusts me.


Pfff! Surely it's a Model 617...

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Old 07-16-2010, 5:25 AM
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While gravedigger offers up some very good advice, you could also post a sign on your property stating that you're neighbor does not believe in guns and feels sorry for criminals. At least you house will never be bothered!
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The world is filled with violence. Because criminals carry guns, we decent law-abiding citizens should also have guns. Otherwise they will win and the decent people will lose.
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Old 07-16-2010, 6:06 AM
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Warm shells on the floor!
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Old 07-16-2010, 6:06 AM
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While gravedigger offers up some very good advice, you could also post a sign on your property stating that you're neighbor does not believe in guns and feels sorry for criminals. At least you house will never be bothered!
This can have the opposite effect and advertises that you have guns: Something burglars and criminals are often very fond of. If someone wants them bad enough, they might just come back with more firepower or more guys before breaking in, and that's the last thing you want.

I absolutely agree with gravedigger: I think your piece or stick should be the absolute last resort. If someone breaks in with cameras everywhere, HUGE dog dish and MASSIVE chain outside, alarm signs and whatnot, you know they are willingly coming in with malicious intent, which is what it takes to avoid being prosecuted these days.

Last edited by goodlookin1; 07-16-2010 at 6:10 AM..
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  #36  
Old 07-16-2010, 6:12 AM
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Wow.
Liberalism is a mental disorder...
Soft coddled kids who grew up in nice neighborhoods but trying to be like new age hippies...Screw that. In his situation if it were me I would have caught guy off guard by pulling charging handle and said put the stuff down and just leave or I will shoot (reverse threat). I do not think for once if I felt my family or my self was threatened with shooting someone who is armed. Yeah there are legal ramifications, but my family and life come first. I will counter sue their family for having such a bastard of a child and sure for all the dollars the system put into having a fool rob or be a threat to my family. CA is a dumb liberal state. However, I like that I live in a nice area and have had one burglary (that was apparently business espionage) since I moved their in 1998.
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Old 07-16-2010, 6:31 AM
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That would not be the time for discussion, imo. One of the very, very few cases of shoot first and ask questions later. Like, how do I get this stain out of my carpet? Breaking into my home is bad enough, breaking in when you know I'm there tells me that you're prepared to hurt/kill me for whatever your purposes might be, and I would definately respond proactively. Want to talk? Knock on the door.

But then, I take a similar approach to OC. If someone wants to attack me while I'm open carrying, I take that as they mean business sufficient to threaten my life (due to the obvious fact that I am prepared to defend myself with force up to and including shooting), and will react accordingly. You certainly can't judge by apperances, since you don't know if they're armed, and there are some very tough people out there who don't always look that physically intimidating by their appearance. I'm grateful every day that neither situation has occurred, and I sincerely hope it stays that way forever.
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Old 07-16-2010, 6:40 AM
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Chalk outline of a DB on the front step, with reddish-brown paint splatter in the head and chest (two sets). Oh, and some pieces (broken but still legible) of that yellow "Police Line: Do Not Cross" tape laying around.
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Old 07-16-2010, 6:51 AM
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Your neighbor is lucky it was a bluff. I don't think I'd like having my life in the balance of someone's whim.

"I'll shoot you" would = my gun going BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! and BLAM!
Since the neighbor couldn't see the individual, only the outline, how do you know it was a bluff?

It very well could be that the intruder had a gun, and would have shot and killed the neighbor had he made any sudden move, or attempted to stop the burgaler.

The neighbor is lucky that he didn't find out the hard way whether it was a bluff or not.

My house, the dogs would have gone nuts, I would have my gun in hand plus a blinding flashlight (to be used when intruder is spotted, quick flash, blind intruder), and the intruder would have been apprehended, scared off, or his ability to harm me and mine would have been neutralized.
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Old 07-16-2010, 6:54 AM
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Originally Posted by NightOwl View Post
That would not be the time for discussion, imo. One of the very, very few cases of shoot first and ask questions later. Like, how do I get this stain out of my carpet? Breaking into my home is bad enough, breaking in when you know I'm there tells me that you're prepared to hurt/kill me for whatever your purposes might be, and I would definately respond proactively. Want to talk? Knock on the door.

But then, I take a similar approach to OC. If someone wants to attack me while I'm open carrying, I take that as they mean business sufficient to threaten my life (due to the obvious fact that I am prepared to defend myself with force up to and including shooting), and will react accordingly. You certainly can't judge by apperances, since you don't know if they're armed, and there are some very tough people out there who don't always look that physically intimidating by their appearance. I'm grateful every day that neither situation has occurred, and I sincerely hope it stays that way forever.
You have to talk him onto the kitchen floor.

I am kind of torn on B&E scum, especially when they do it while homeowners are present. On one hand, I would really hate to take the life of another human being, and OTOH, common sense tells me if this person is willing to B&E with you home, they may be inclined to do more than just take a few items, and the more they get away with it, the bolder they may become.

In addition, the thought of letting the person walk when I could have stopped them, and then to know they may be doing again, to someone else, would play hell on my conscious. Also, if taken alive, and knowing they will end up in our court system of overcrowding, the chance of them doing a meaningful amount of time, the odds are low.
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