New rule on Richmond Rod & Gun Club Rifle ranges

[jeremyro]

If a steel core round was the problem why crack down on steel case? They have nothing to do with each other. Most steel core ammo is brass cased. Bimetal bullets perform no different than brass, check the video I posted.

[Prolitheus]

Originally Posted by jeremyro

If a steel core round was the problem why crack down on steel case? They have nothing to do with each other. Most steel core ammo is brass cased. Bimetal bullets perform no different than brass, check the video I posted.

I think the problem is determining what is steel core and what is not. Magnet seems like the easiest way. Maybe if you bring ammo boxes that say lead core that could suffice?

[jeremyro]

They do a lot of things at this range that do not make sense. They put a sticker on your gun to make sure it is zerod. They put the sticker on my AR lower.... that is not the part that is zeroed and what happens when I switch uppers?!? I asked if they could put it on my optic since that is the thing they are actually checking and they said it had to be on the gun. OK, but you are making an already pretty worthless policy even more worthless. If you are concerned about people shooting all over the place you need a card to checkout the shooter, not the gun. They put a "zeroed" sticker on my M1917 enfield and it shoots 10" above POA at 100. I just knew to aim low when I was checking it with the range master, does that mean my gun has a good 100yrd zero? NO! can you even adjust it if I wanted to ? NO! Why do I have a sticker then? Just to ruin my 100 year old patina?

If they are concerned about steel core make a no steel core rule and explain to everyone what types of ammo might be steel core, there aren't that many.

There was a no offhand shooting rule here for a long time for who knows why, then I was there two weeks ago and this guy was offhand shooting a K98 with new shooters and totally missing the frame at 50 yrds and nobody said a word to him. I started shooting my AR offhand and that was ok too. Evidently that is no longer a rule, but how could I know that? I feel like going to the meetings here would be a total waste of my already very limited shooting time, if these are the decisions people are making at the meetings they are very obviously poorly informed on technical shooting knowledge and physics so I am not sure who I am supposed to argue with.

In another anecdote, two weeks ago when I was there they tried to make me leave the pistol line with my AR pistol because they said it was an SBR. I have been kicked from the rifle to pistol line several times with my AR pistol and finally talked to several people in the range office and the determination was made that I should be shooting it on the pistol line. I was told by three different employees at the range that it "did not look like a pistol to them" and my Sig Brace was in fact a stock. Then when I said in the range office that it meets all state and federal definitions of a pistol I was told, yeah but it is clearly an SBR. Are these people aware that there is no way I could have a legal SBR in CA? I am pretty clearly not LEO. The range master insisted to me several times it was an SBR. This is a dangerous assertion and the sort of thing I expect from the DOJ but not my friendly neighborhood range staff. RRG needs to seriously talk to the staff about managing shooters, not their weapons and tell the staff to stop accusing law-abiding gun owners of being illegal. It is not the kind of thing that makes me want to give them my time and money.

I feel like there are logical solutions to all the problems that the range is having and they are not being pursued. I thought about being a member after Chabot closed (where I was an active member) but this range continues to prove to me that they are not on the side of the shooter and I don't want to be part of that kind of organization.

[sargenv]

Originally Posted by jeremyro

If a steel core round was the problem why crack down on steel case? They have nothing to do with each other. Most steel core ammo is brass cased. Bimetal bullets perform no different than brass, check the video I posted.

My original post did not mention steel case.. it mentioned steel core, b-metal jacketed lead core and the like.. Steel case like the Hornady stuff is completely legal. We don't care that you litter the ground with steel cases.. we just don't want steel core projectiles destroying the new eyebrow.

(original post #1)
The range has instituted a no steel core or steel jacket rule on the action, 25, 100, and 200 yard lines. This includes the 5.56 green tip, 7.62 x 39 steel jacketed lead core, 7.62 x 51 steel core, or any AP steel core ammo. This includes 30-06 Greek steel core ammo.
(end original post)

[jeremyro]

Originally Posted by sargenv

My original post did not mention steel case.. it mentioned steel core, b-metal jacketed lead core and the like.. Steel case like the Hornady stuff is completely legal. We don't care that you litter the ground with steel cases.. we just don't want steel core projectiles destroying the new eyebrow.

(original post #1)
The range has instituted a no steel core or steel jacket rule on the action, 25, 100, and 200 yard lines. This includes the 5.56 green tip, 7.62 x 39 steel jacketed lead core, 7.62 x 51 steel core, or any AP steel core ammo. This includes 30-06 Greek steel core ammo.
(end original post)

The sign at the range says no steel or bimetal projectiles, and I heard the range master yell at someone on the pistol line for aluminum case as well.

[sargenv]

The sign is incorrect.. I'll take care of it..

It should be obvious that steel case (steel casings) are okay since they litter the ground...

Can you provide a photo? The Range chairman is on the phone and said that it is Steel Core (not Steel case) or Bi-metal Projectiles..

I was told by three different employees at the range that it "did not look like a pistol to them"

First of all.. NO ONE gets paid and they are NOT employees. Everyone is a volunteer and is a member of the club giving their time to keep the club going.

[jeremyro]

I did not take a photo. Almost all steel case is bimetal and bimetal is functionally the same as brass unless sparking is a concern.

[jeremyro]

I just want to say that Vince followed up with me on the issues I have been having and I really appreciate the amount of work this range is putting in. Some of the rules are not east to work with and finding out last minute is a bummer, but them putting in the effort to address these problems is what separates an institution that cares from one that is just ok having problems. Thanks Vince and hopefully there is a way to make this range work for most if not all shooters.

[sargenv]

Nice offline conversation.. hope we can effect some more positive changes.. (and get on the same page).

[cire raeb]

Originally Posted by sargenv

The website is a work in progress and NEEDS an update.. just like many things at the club, the web designer is also a volunteer. In due time it will change and get updated. We still do not have our ammunition vendor license and until we do, we cannot sell ammo.. That includes the bio-wad, non toxic ammo we are required to sell for skeet and trap.

Of course, that's why I posted about the new rule on steel core/steel jacketed ammo here and on the various forums on Facebook. I don't have access to the web site to correct it.. all I can do is send an email/text to our web guy and hope he isn't travelling over seas.. so I post in all the places I can to alert you.. the public.. that there has been a change.

Thank you for responding. If technology is a challenge, perhaps upload a copy of the rules with the monthly newsletter or create a separate link to download a PDF copy of it on the page.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Gun Kraft]

Originally Posted by sargenv

We still do not have our ammunition vendor license and until we do, we cannot sell ammo.. That includes the bio-wad, non toxic ammo we are required to sell for skeet and trap.

PC 30312.
(a) (1) Commencing January 1, 2018, the sale of ammunition by any party shall be conducted by or processed through a licensed ammunition vendor.

(c) Subdivisions (a) and (b) shall not apply to the sale, delivery, or transfer of ammunition to any of the following:

(9) A person who purchases or receives ammunition at a target facility holding a business or other regulatory license, provided that the ammunition is at all times kept within the facility’s premises.

I believe ranges can sell ammunition without a vendor license due to the exemption in PC 30312(c)(9). What makes you (or the range) believe otherwise? I think as long as you make a good faith effort to ensure ammo sold is used at the range you should be okay.

[sargenv]

Because I spoke to the demon of justice (DOJ) and they clarified that we have to have the permit to sell.. not to mention that if we do go ahead and sell all of the ammo we have, vendors outside the state will not sell to us since we cannot receive it at the location.. we'd have to go through an ffl to get any new ammo.. I was going to have people sell based on #9 above, but we can't really regulate that the ammo stays on the property. No one is going to let us search their bags.. right?

It's like herding cats, but in the end it will be worth it since we'll have jumped through the hoops and could once again replenish that which we already sold.

[Gun Kraft]

Originally Posted by sargenv

Because I spoke to the demon of justice (DOJ) and they clarified that we have to have the permit to sell.

Is that like their "BBs have to remain on RAWs after they are registered" interpretation? Interesting.

[Sputnik]

Originally Posted by sargenv

Because I spoke to the demon of justice (DOJ) and they clarified that we have to have the permit to sell.. not to mention that if we do go ahead and sell all of the ammo we have, vendors outside the state will not sell to us since we cannot receive it at the location.. we'd have to go through an ffl to get any new ammo.. I was going to have people sell based on #9 above, but we can't really regulate that the ammo stays on the property. No one is going to let us search their bags.. right?

It's like herding cats, but in the end it will be worth it since we'll have jumped through the hoops and could once again replenish that which we already sold.

Sounds like more "DOJ overstepping the bounds of their authority" to me but when its your @&& on the block I completely understand your position.

[sargenv]

Pretty much.. Not to mention vendors not wanting the wrath of the DOJ suing them to not sell to us.. may as well line up said ducks in a row to cover anything exposed.. sucks.. but cost of doing biz in this state.

[sargenv]

So the Bi-Metal ban has been lifted. Steel core (ie AP or M855 green tip and equiv) is still not allowed. Lead core, copper washed mild steel jackets (Tula, Wolf, Barnaul, Greek 30-06, etc) is now allowed.

We are going to try to get the range officers informed of this, but as has been stated, sometimes not everybody gets the memo. Please pm me offline if a range officer states that the ban stands.. because obviously they didn't get the memo.. The Range Chairman will send an email out, let's hope everyone who works the range gets said email and doesn't cause a hassle.

[CenterX]

How or what inspectionnor test criteria will be utilized to ensure the ammo in question is actually okay to use?

Some surplus is mixed and the obvious green tip can be culled, but the remaining clear looking one still attracts magnet.

[sargenv]

Range officers will be asking for one round to test.. likely cutting said single round to determine if it is a steel core or just a steel jacket. it's not perfect and I'm sure there will be people who sneak through, but there are more people using bi-metal than there are true AP or Steel core.. Basically it comes down to the honor system.. if it is observed that someone is using green tip, they will likely be asked to leave. There are always going to be gamers. Some will comply, others will not.. we hope there are more who comply than not.. it's about all we can do without requiring you to buy the ammo we sell (and can't sell until we get the DOJ sales permit).

[Prolitheus]

Haha I just bought Wolf non-magnetic. Oh well, more ammo!

[GunnEnvy]

This is good news thanks for the heads up. Now I don't have to drive all the way to San Jose to shoot my AK.

[sargenv]

Also, Richmond has now been issued the State mandated Ammunition Sales License. We are now selling ammunition again. We have most common and a few uncommon calibers in stock of which 308 Marlin Express, 5.7x28, 22 magnum, 300 BO are all in stock. We have most of the other common stuff in stock at very fair prices (okay, not the same as if you ordered it online, but the club has to make a little $$ to justify having it).

And no, unfortunately we cannot accept ammo shipped to us from online vendors. We hardly have enough room for the ammo we stock.

[BigPimping]

Thank God that I should only on private property or on the private gun range at my employer

[Garand Hunter]

Regards poster # 29, DITTO, too much attitude at Richmond. Some few years ago it was a great range to visit. USI is useless now, 2 1/2 yrs and no future in sight. I have tried Manteca Sportsmen and so far ok. Just too far from Brentwood area. Currently not a member anywhere.

Psalm 1

[NorthBay Shooter]

Originally Posted by sargenv

Also, Richmond has now been issued the State mandated Ammunition Sales License. We are now selling ammunition again. We have most common and a few uncommon calibers in stock of which 308 Marlin Express, 5.7x28, 22 magnum, 300 BO are all in stock. We have most of the other common stuff in stock at very fair prices (okay, not the same as if you ordered it online, but the club has to make a little $$ to justify having it).

And no, unfortunately we cannot accept ammo shipped to us from online vendors. We hardly have enough room for the ammo we stock.

Are you selling handgun ammo as well? Where at the range can you purchase? Action side or public side?

[dmy]

I'm probably shooting myself in the foot (figuratively only), but my experience at R.R.&G.C. has been nothing but positive. I joined 3 years as go as a Chabot refugee. So far, everyone has treated me very well, but I expect that since I also treat everyone there very politely. I was there yesterday and was very pleased to see several open lanes on the 100 yard range. I was also happy to see they allow 50 yard targets again and standing position, although judging from the "groups", some of the standing shooters should have moved their targets closer. The volunteer Range Officers were respectful and they helped 2 people having issues with their equipment.
I have read many posts about R.R.&G.C., but I do not recall anyone saying "Thanks Vince" and keep up the good work. The club looks great.

[dmy]

In my haste to hit the "post reply" icon, I forgot to say it myself. Thanks Vince (and all of the others) and keep up the good work.

[sargenv]

Originally Posted by NorthBay Shooter

Are you selling handgun ammo as well? Where at the range can you purchase? Action side or public side?

Yes, the 25/100 yd line is selling rifle/pistol ammo again.. CC accepted as long as the machine is working (sometimes we lose network connection).

The Skeet range has resumed selling the much disliked but neccessary non toxic shotshell ammo in 12, 20, 28, and 410. CC accepted there too. Might I add that we are likely going to be competitively priced for steel #7's when it becomes mandated for hunting in 2019. We also have some limited Kent Fast Steel on sale in 12 and 20 gauge for waterfowl season in addition to some Federal Black Cloud 3.5" #2's.

The action range generally does not sell ammo unless at special events like the GSSF match and occasionally for other specialty matches.