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  #1  
Old 11-16-2017, 11:22 AM
furyous68 furyous68 is offline
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Default Deer Hunting in CA

Anyone else think there should just be a moratorium on deer hunting in CA for a few years to help bring up the herd numbers... and hopefully the number of legal bucks? Would it help?
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Old 11-16-2017, 11:26 AM
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I have heard that mountain lions and other predators would have to be culled as well to make a difference
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Old 11-16-2017, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by furyous68 View Post
Anyone else think there should just be a moratorium on deer hunting in CA for a few years to help bring up the herd numbers... and hopefully the number of legal bucks? Would it help?
I think lifting the ban on hunting mountain lions and using dogs for bears would be more beneficial.
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Old 11-16-2017, 11:30 AM
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I agree with the mountain lions. Didn't think our bears bothered deer all that much... but at least you can still hunt bear. The mountain lion population is crazy.
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Old 11-16-2017, 11:33 AM
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No it would not help. There is little water, WAY TO MANY LIONS, a few to many bears eating fawns, there is not enough land to maintain a healthy herd in many many parts of the state. Where they do live is almost inaccessible to hunt, due to terrain and private property in ALL of Socal. A moratorium on hiking with a gun in pursuit the only large mammal left for us to hunt in socal would also cost millions in conservation fees hunter pay every year.
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Old 11-16-2017, 11:55 AM
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I think that if the season were closed it would never open again...
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Old 11-16-2017, 2:02 PM
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Originally Posted by lewdogg21 View Post
I think that if the season were closed it would never open again...
Which is the objective to mismanaging game animals in the first place.
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Old 11-16-2017, 2:07 PM
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Originally Posted by racinjason233 View Post
No it would not help. There is little water, WAY TO MANY LIONS, a few to many bears eating fawns, there is not enough land to maintain a healthy herd in many many parts of the state. Where they do live is almost inaccessible to hunt, due to terrain and private property in ALL of Socal. A moratorium on hiking with a gun in pursuit the only large mammal left for us to hunt in socal would also cost millions in conservation fees hunter pay every year.
It's not the fawns.
Bears take kills from lions, lions then take more than a deer a week like they otherwise would.

They are just pilfering the license fees anyway.
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Old 11-16-2017, 2:15 PM
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Originally Posted by stonefly-2 View Post
It's not the fawns.
Bears take kills from lions, lions then take more than a deer a week like they otherwise would.

They are just pilfering the license fees anyway.
You sir, are correct. I was keeping my response as concise as possible. I believe the OP is a non hunter or he would know already the extreme jeopardy Lions and bears have the deer population in.

I still want to opportunity to take my guns for a walk every now and again...

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Old 11-16-2017, 2:22 PM
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Lions take a lot of solitary bucks. Too many of the bastards.
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Old 11-16-2017, 2:51 PM
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I'm sure lions take lots of deer but...the real enemy is us. Wildlife habitat is becoming more and more fragmented, and smaller and smaller as well.

The ban on lion hunting is insane. Bring it back with a limited number of tags instead of having Fish and Game folks or their hired hunters control the lion numbers surreptitiously.
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Old 11-16-2017, 3:13 PM
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https://www.gohunt.com/read/life/the...-in-california
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Old 11-16-2017, 3:33 PM
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Originally Posted by JackEllis View Post
I'm sure lions take lots of deer but...the real enemy is us. Wildlife habitat is becoming more and more fragmented, and smaller and smaller as well.

The ban on lion hunting is insane. Bring it back with a limited number of tags instead of having Fish and Game folks or their hired hunters control the lion numbers surreptitiously.
The FnG does nothing to control "numbers" of lions, they take out what they deem to be problem lions.
As if there was any difference between one lion just being a lion and another.

It's land owners, people with kids or live stock in rural areas, sheriff's deputies and possibly individual game wardens that are trying to control numbers of lions on the downlo.
Maybe even hunters...but i doubt it.
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Old 11-16-2017, 3:34 PM
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Even before the bears and lions were a significant factor the lack of doe hunting has been a huge negative. Lot of old baran does out there taking up feed. Doe hunts are largely left to local legislators vs. DFW. There's absolutlety no science involved, just emotions. Same as bear and lions.

In Socal, I'd agree on the fragmentation of suitable range. In Norcal, that's not a significant issue.
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Old 11-16-2017, 4:24 PM
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Would it help the deer numbers? Sure. And it would help the lion numbers, too. You breed what you feed. Lions, coyotes, bears -- all would benefit & increase after a few years.

But nothing happens in a vacuum. DFW would lose a ton of money. So they'd be less able to enforce laws against poaching. Only the legal hunting would end. Development also wouldn't stop and DFW might have to allow more depredation permits to reduce the impact on crop damage.

Anytime you mess with a complex system, there are unintended consequences. The benefits from intervention must outweigh the risks, both known and unknown. Most of the time, we can only benefit a complex system by limiting our actions (NOT doing something) rather than trying to help through action (doing something).

In the case of wildlife and hunting, I think a stronger case could be made for increasing the limits and even allow for hunting does and/or fawns but putting severe limits on the legal methods of take. Primitive hunting by primitive methods (traditional archery and even primitive firearms) would put most deer completely out of reach of the average weekend warrior. Plus, it strengthens the existing herd so that all but the most alert deer don't live long enough to breed. And for those of you who are freaking out about hunting fawns (or taking one that got close enough for a shot), keep in mind that 40% fawn mortality is the norm. It's why does evolved to birth two each season -- one for the predators, among which are humans, the other fawn is for their herd. It's also where our own infant mortality was before modern medicine and is similar for many other species. Taking a fawn, with it's near coin-flip odds of survival, is a lower risk proposition to the herd than a doe or buck that has proven its ability to survive & breed. Given the choice of a buck, a doe or a fawn to kill, I'd take the fawn any day of the week IF (and only IF) it were legal to do so.

But all this is just whistling Dixie. DFW needs money or poaching would ruin what's left of our deer. A moratorium would risk shutting down hunting permanently. Without hunting, anti-gun legislators would start cracking down more heavily on firearms ownership. There are so many cascading effects that what benefit we hope to get out of the moratorium would likely be cancelled out by all the negative effects we didn't intend & didn't want. If we want to strengthen the deer herds, we need to think more seriously about whether we should be taking 300+ yard shots from bipod-mounted rifles instead of sneaking in within the limits of their senses to take down the weak, the unaware and the unlearned from among them.
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Old 11-16-2017, 7:37 PM
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I log for a living up in northern Ca. run a Cat during the day and drive water truck at night in some really prime hunting country. You would think I would see all kinds of bucks late at night and early morning but to tell you the truth I do not but what there are a lot of is Mountain Lions. couple yrs ago ran into a big 4pt buck down buy the river blinded him with the truck had to stop and turn off lights so he could move on I drove away and went back to my camp, that morning the crew picked me up at camp and when we got to the spot were I seen the buck we spotted it buried beside the road with his neck broke and both sides ripped open the cat must have got him right after I pulled away.
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Old 11-17-2017, 10:07 AM
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Shorten up the seasons and tag. Limit on size; need to be 3x3 and up. Too many people are too desperate for meat and killing "barely" legal buck. Too many attitude, "oh if I don't kill that small forky, someone else will."

Many other reasons out there too but I wont get into it.
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Old 11-17-2017, 10:37 AM
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You would think I would see all kinds of bucks late at night and early morning but to tell you the truth I do not
I see deer walking around at the Boca shooting range if I go early in the morning. Mostly does and fawns, rarely bucks.

Two nights ago coming home late, I did see a 3x3 walking around in the Glenshire area as if he didn't have a care in the world, but for me buck sightings are rare. Same deal hunting in Saskatchewan for whitetails last week. Lots of does, few bucks, and this is with the rut getting underway and bitterly cold weather.

I also think smaller bucks should be off-limits. Little guys are better eating but it's the older ones that need to be shot.
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Old 11-17-2017, 10:47 AM
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I'm not sure mountain lions are a major problem. I've heard that between depredation permits and other "official" kills, the number shot annually is about what it was before the ban. The ban will never be overturned.

Fragmented habitat and drought are the main issues. Wolves are not a big factor yet, but lets hope they acquire a taste for juvenile bears and young lions.
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Old 11-17-2017, 11:56 AM
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I'm not sure mountain lions are a major problem. I've heard that between depredation permits and other "official" kills, the number shot annually is about what it was before the ban. The ban will never be overturned.

Fragmented habitat and drought are the main issues. Wolves are not a big factor yet, but lets hope they acquire a taste for juvenile bears and young lions.
Well bless your heart.
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Old 11-17-2017, 12:48 PM
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I'm not sure mountain lions are a major problem. I've heard that between depredation permits and other "official" kills, the number shot annually is about what it was before the ban.
DFG has been stating that the lion population is about 5,000 since the 90's. Printed studies have shown a lion takes a deer sized animal every 5-7 days.

5,000 lions x 1 deer a week = 5,000 deer a week x 52 weeks a yeah = 260,000 deer a year. A generally more accepted population of lions here in Ca is 15,000 - 20,000.

So on the low end, 15,000 x 1 x 52 = 780,000 deer a year.

Other studies have shown that bears frequently (through learned behavior, instinct, whatever) steal kills from lions. Thus that number can only go up.
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Old 11-17-2017, 2:15 PM
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I think it’s time for a doe only season.
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Old 11-17-2017, 2:22 PM
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I think its time for a doe only season.
AGREE, AGREE, AGREE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 11-17-2017, 2:48 PM
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doe only season on a draw basis and hunting season for mountain lions
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Old 11-17-2017, 3:32 PM
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You seem to think that a good deer herd is desired by the state. Quite the opposite. Youd think the state would care about improving fishing. But youd be wrong.

The goal is to destroy the outdoor lifestyle, hunting and fishing. Nature is only to be worshipped and revered never plundered or raped with harvesting an animal or fish.

Its a cultural war. Were losing.
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Old 11-17-2017, 3:47 PM
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Originally Posted by HUTCH 7.62 View Post
I think its time for a doe only season.
It's long past time.

The time was 1958 when the Busch bill passed in the first place.
Like the equally stupid legislations on bear and mountain lion hunting the Busch bill interferes with sound game management principals.

The damage has been tremendous and at this point our best hope as hunters/conservationists is that a well timed "i told you so" will sink in somewhere mid collapse.
Which is to say ...not much hope.

As a management tool mountain lions had a bounty on them for many years until just sport hunting provided enough take to manage a balance.
Them being shot on sight in a lot of circles just postpones the day the bounties return, just a shame that's all.
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Old 11-17-2017, 4:23 PM
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Shorten up the seasons and tag. Limit on size; need to be 3x3 and up. Too many people are too desperate for meat and killing "barely" legal buck. Too many attitude, "oh if I don't kill that small forky, someone else will."

Many other reasons out there too but I wont get into it.
Too many poachers killing whatever deer they see is the problem. That's why the lions are killing more farm animals and dogs. Same with the coyotes killing more farm animals and dogs.
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Old 11-17-2017, 4:49 PM
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Too many poachers killing whatever deer they see is the problem. That's why the lions are killing more farm animals and dogs. Same with the coyotes killing more farm animals and dogs.
Lions and coyotes are killing more farm animals and dogs because of poachers?

Ok, this i gotta hear.
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Old 11-17-2017, 4:55 PM
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You seem to think that a good deer herd is desired by the state. Quite the opposite. Youd think the state would care about improving fishing. But youd be wrong.

The goal is to destroy the outdoor lifestyle, hunting and fishing. Nature is only to be worshipped and revered never plundered or raped with harvesting an animal or fish.

Its a cultural war. Were losing.
That culture war started here at colonization. Worshiping nature and hunting go hand-in-hand -- certainly better than hunting and the civilized religions.

Globally, it's a story as old as time. Adam & Eve (cursed to till the soil instead of living in the hands of God), Cain & Abel (the farmers warring against the pastoralists), Jacob & Esau (the civilized vs the hunters)... Same story, different characters.

Too bad so many eco-minded liberals can't see that the only way to save nature is to participate in it, not simply watch it passively like a television. All life requires sacrifice. And no PhD in biology will ever KNOW a deer like a hunter.
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Old 11-17-2017, 5:12 PM
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Not sure what you're talking about. i take a buck every year. The issue isnt the lack of deer, but too many lazy hunters.
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Old 11-17-2017, 5:20 PM
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The substantial factor in our deer harvest is that the hunting seasons are held during the non-rutting period. You can always find does, the CDFW does that so we have to hunt for them, you have to want it.
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Old 11-17-2017, 5:22 PM
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Not sure what you're talking about. i take a buck every year. The issue isnt the lack of deer, but too many lazy hunters.
Not willing to put in work.
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Old 11-17-2017, 5:41 PM
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Lions and coyotes are killing more farm animals and dogs because of poachers?

Ok, this i gotta hear.
Not as many deer, they have to eat something.
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Old 11-17-2017, 6:38 PM
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Not as many deer, they have to eat something.
Ok,
and do you accept Lews characterization of lions taking 52 deer a year each?
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Old 11-17-2017, 6:45 PM
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One of you peasants fetch me my popcorn. This is getting good.
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Old 11-17-2017, 7:18 PM
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Ok,
and do you accept Lews characterization of lions taking 52 deer a year each?
No they're putting goats, calves and dogs in the mix too. It's also impossible to prove how many deer a year each poacher takes or how many poachers there are.
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Old 11-17-2017, 7:37 PM
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No they're putting goats, calves and dogs in the mix too. It's also impossible to prove how many deer a year each poacher takes or how many poachers there are.
Ah, so you see where i'm going with this?

For the sake of argument lets say that on a week that a lion kills a goat, dog or calf it would not then have to eat a deer. (i guess that's what you are after)

Also i will stipulate that we don't how many poachers are killing how many deer.
(but i would opine that the most active deer poachers are people that kill them on their own property and may well kill more lions than they do deer for the very reasons you pointed out)

Given all that would you care to compare which of the two has a profound and which has a negligible effect on deer herd populations?
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Old 11-17-2017, 7:39 PM
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Not sure what you're talking about. i take a buck every year. The issue isnt the lack of deer, but too many lazy hunters.
Could not agree more!
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Old 11-17-2017, 7:57 PM
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Ah, so you see where i'm going with this?

For the sake of argument lets say that on a week that a lion kills a goat, dog or calf it would not then have to eat a deer. (i guess that's what you are after)

Also i will stipulate that we don't how many poachers are killing how many deer.
(but i would opine that the most active deer poachers are people that kill them on their own property and may well kill more lions than they do deer for the very reasons you pointed out)

Given all that would you care to compare which of the two has a profound and which has a negligible effect on deer herd populations?
I don't know, but I live near the middle of D3 zone and most poachers I know/suspect of poaching live/lived in trailer parks or rent. I bet there may be some landowners that would SSS a lion if it's killing their animals though.
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Old 11-17-2017, 9:26 PM
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Originally Posted by TMB 1 View Post
I don't know, but I live near the middle of D3 zone and most poachers I know/suspect of poaching live/lived in trailer parks or rent. I bet there may be some landowners that would SSS a lion if it's killing their animals though.
Yeah it's a pretty open secret that there are folks around that eat venison.

Some of them and particularly in the case of land owners it is in part helpful.
They generally take does because they are said to eat better, are more plentiful and don't leave horn evidence.
The buck doe ratio is a big part of the problem, my guess is that it's something like 40 to 1.
It could never happen but ideally if there were enough fertile does that could be bred by the right number of mature bucks reproduction would be highest with the least demand on available food with the male/female ratio of fawns at 50/50.
Land owners are incidentally providing food, water and protection from predators which net return wise is more helpful to the herd even considering the old does they take.
Even at that i'm sure there are many many times more landowners that don't take deer than there are tweekers in trailers that do.

Poaching and predation are both ways that deer die, both factor in to sound game managment.

It's all in the mix,
if you want to reduce specifically the number of deer killed by poachers you step up enforcement and or punishments.
If you want to reduce the number of deer killed by predators you reduce the number of predators.
If you want to modify the buck/doe ratio you adjust the numbers of each getting killed.

But if you want to collapse the herd you pass legislation that denies the FNG the tools to apply sound game management principles as per the north American model of game management and or wrest control of that agency over to lefties working against what's best for our wild lands.
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