Calguns.net  

Home My iTrader Join the NRA Donate to CGSSA Sponsors CGN Google Search
CA Semiauto Ban(AW)ID Flowchart CA Handgun Ban ID Flowchart CA Shotgun Ban ID Flowchart
Go Back   Calguns.net > CALIFORNIA SHOOTING CLUBS AND ORGANIZATIONS > The Appleseed Project
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

The Appleseed Project The Revolutionary War Veterans Association

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 03-19-2016, 10:08 AM
Pasadena Phil Pasadena Phil is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Pasadena CA
Posts: 10
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default Anyone want to share their experiences on how they earned their Rifleman badges?

I've been to two Appleseed one-day events so far and learned a ton from both but left far from being able to qualify for my badge. After my second event last weekend, where I was frustrated that I couldn't easily and consistently find my NPOA (but I could while practicing at home), I decided to rethink everything. Rocketman said that my form was good but I was "dragging wood". I am sure that is true but I felt I had a more fundamental problem.

I noticed that the best shooters at the event were not using scopes. It's only 25 yards and having to deal with scope alignment and cheek weld issues associated with adding a scope convinced me that I could eliminate all of those variables by losing the scope and stripping the cheek weld padding. Now I am back to basics and don't have to fuss with the scope. I'll be going to the range later this week to see if that makes a difference. Meanwhile, it makes it easier to practice at home without a scope.

Anyone have any similar or different ideas or suggestions they would like to share? I am using a basic Ruger 10/22 carbine and was using a Nikon Prostaff 150 rimfire scope so the problem isn't equipment but me. I am determined to get my badge just because.... It is harder than I expected and the target don't lie.

Last edited by Pasadena Phil; 03-19-2016 at 10:09 AM.. Reason: minor correction to syntax
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 03-20-2016, 1:28 AM
ifilef ifilef is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: North County San Diego
Posts: 5,665
iTrader: 49 / 100%
Default

I have the same scope and was planning to use it for Appleseed in April. Had to cancel again due to recent complications from a knee surgery and sad to say that after April, Rainbow is no longer on the schedule for rest of the year, so I can not directly answer your query as I haven't even attended Appleseed.

So, sorry that I can not answer as I don't have the badge.

In any event, my two cents worth- if your eyes are aging suggest that you stick with the scope and exploit its potential. It appears to be a good scope and the problem likely results from issues on your end, as you have stated. And proper scope mounting is important, in addition to other issues that may exist. I sprang for the Wheeler Scope Mounting Combo Kit viewed the video and others and learned a lot thereafter.

If your eyes are good the general concensus appears to be that Tech sights are the best way to go.

Last edited by ifilef; 03-20-2016 at 1:46 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 03-20-2016, 7:11 AM
Pasadena Phil Pasadena Phil is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Pasadena CA
Posts: 10
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Thanks. I'm 62 myself but have really good eyesight (20/20 but wear reading glasses). I also bought a Wheeler scope mounting kit a while back and swear by it. But for 25 yards, it occurred to me after my last Appleseed that my main problem was probably worrying about too many variables and removing the scope eliminates a few big ones. I'll have to look into Tech sights but I just marked up the edges of my iron sights and played around with sighting with my laser bore sighter and it seems to be much easier than fussing with a scope. But the only way to know for sure is at the range. The target doesn't lie.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 03-20-2016, 8:26 AM
5akman 5akman is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 179
iTrader: 5 / 100%
Default

I'd stick with the scope. I'm 52, over weight, out of shape, wear bifocals and could NOT have qualified at my first AS with open sights. I was using a 10/22 that I had not shot in over 25 yrs with Weaver 4x scope. The scope was horrible as the eye relief was optimum over a range of about 1/4" of head placement so I had a tough time with positioning on the stock. I've since bought a new scope with a bit more eye relief but have not yet mounted it.

I'd encourage you to practice at your home range in all positions. You'll eventually just "fall" into the correct position and your scores will increase. I shot a few horrible rounds under 200 before finally finding my mojo and shot 4 in a row from 211 -231. Not meaning to brag at all but it just suddenly seemed really easy and I knew every shot that I fired that was not going to be a scoring hit.

One of the instructors at the AS I attended said it took him 6 trips to AS before he qualified. Keep at it and it will come to you!
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 03-20-2016, 12:28 PM
as_rocketman's Avatar
as_rocketman as_rocketman is offline
CGSSA Leader
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Pasadena
Posts: 2,764
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

Hi Phil, you've already gotten a couple doses of my "fatherly wisdom" but here I've got time for more focused stuff... this may help, may not.

My own Rifleman story was on the quick side: Two full weekend Appleseeds. At the first one I did OK -- my first AQT (of five) I scored about 130, which was profoundly disappointing... By the end of the weekend, humbled and now starting to listen to the instructors, I squeaked out a 193 but that was my ceiling.

What did I have to listen to? Bunch of things. I wasn't focusing on the front sight -- and that inconsistency made me build inconsistent sight alignment. Sight alignment is one of those things that seems so obvious that I was dismissing it, but don't. I had a tendency to blink on each shot. I was gripping the stock with my support hand, and neither my support elbow nor trigger knee were really wedged where they need to go.

The biggest thing, though, is mental. Once I took the time to practice all those things a few hundred times, I'd get to the line and know my body position was right instead of wondering about it, and that freed my mind to think about other things. Or nothing.

For my second Appleseed, it was pouring rain. I showed up anyway thinking I'd be the only person there... and I wasn't. There were 11 students and 8 instructors, and our Shoot Boss was a cranky grandmother! Well, I kinda decided I ought to just suck it up and shoot, and that's what I did.

It became much easier to focus than I thought even as the range flooded -- I was lying in literally three inches of standing water by the end, but all the time, thinking, "cool, I can sink into this and build a REALLY solid NPOA." And I did. There were other distractions, though... with all the rain I had to periodically blow out the aperture of my Tech Sights, and my ammo got wet enough that I had about 1 in 10 misfires by the end of the class. Didn't care. I'd put up with heck and high water (well, the latter at least) to be there, and I was going to shoot, and like it!

First AQT on the weekend, I shot a 190. But I took a hard look at the target. My groupings were fine, well under 4 MOA. Where I lost points was on Stage 4. All of my groups were off-center, drawn low and away. I finally realized that my eyesight was limiting me -- I was being drawn away from the targets toward the edge of the paper, which was a much more visible feature. The mind plays incredible tricks on us.

For the second AQT I shot the first three stages like a machine, focused only on getting to Stage 4 intact. Disaster nearly struck on Stage 3, the fast stage, where I had three misfires in ten rounds... however, I had brought an "emergency magazine," robotically threw that in and re-engaged, and managed to get nine of ten shots off before time expired, and a 34/50 which was good enough to keep me in the running.

Stage 4, I took my time, staring at the target and memorizing where the targets were on the sheet of paper. Then I focused on the front sight and used the whole sheet as my background, and brought my NPOA to where the targets were supposed to be. The tactic worked: This time, my groups were centered, and I got a 44, one of my best Stage 4's up to that point.

That performance earned a 214, and that was a profound relief. After that I realized just how solid my concentration had been -- I was forcing it, working to get that focus, but I had it. I didn't spend any time worrying about the water seeping through my snowsuit or losing magazines in the mud. I didn't sit and review the Six Steps in my head, not even once, I just did it. I didn't think about the clock, except on that fateful Stage 3, which was by far my worst score on the target. Focus is what counts, and once you've shot the score, it comes more easily. Relaxed focus is the ultimate goal but don't expect to get that without hundreds of hours on the line. That's just human nature.

So... In your case:

1. Scope or irons? I used irons (Tech Sights) largely because I didn't want the hassle of putting a scope on my little Marlin. But tactically it depends. Irons are better unless you need a scope -- and many of us do.

The key is Stage 4. If you can see the targets on Stage 4 well enough to build a repeatable sight picture, then irons will be better for you. But if you can't, then you need a scope.

My eyes are on the edge. (Actually, after sticking with Appleseed, they've gotten better again. This is not just a feeling, I shoot at calibrated targets and I can prove it. The brain can do a lot in software.) With my Marlin's short sight radius, I've adapted to the point that I can score with irons, but I would shoot better with a scope. I have a 4x38 Weaver on my other rimfire rifle, and I can clean Stage 4 with it pretty regularly.

Why not scope? Well, there is more to life than Stage 4. Some people take longer to acquire NPOA through a scope, and it is very difficult to mount a scope so that your eye stays in the eyebox for prone and seated position. Typically you have to choose, and we tend to choose prone, which means we give up a few points on Stage 2. For this reason I choose scopes that are low-powered and use oversize objectives to provide the largest eyebox possible -- my "go-to" AR-15 now wears a 3x30 ACOG because my eyes are on the edge, and that particular scope is very, very tolerant of changes in head position. (Just watch for parallax.)

The other issue with scopes is mental. I dislike scopes with lots of adjustments. I like stupid simple. For this reason I prefer fixed power and simple reticles, although the "horseshoe" in my ACOG does grab attention and helps me maintain focus on the sights instead of the target. But this is going to depend on you.

Understand that I would make different choices for different disciplines. Shooting F-class from a bench, I'd be perfectly fine using a high-power variable, a bipod, all kinds of stuff... but I'd expect to shoot horribly with such a rifle from seated position. Different tools for different games. Field shooting is probably the best one to master first, which is why we focus on it at Appleseed.

2. I think most people shoot better with irons (again, among those who can) because peering through optics is just another "unusual" thing that pushes us out of our mental comfort zone. If you're a professional cinematographer or astronomer, then the opposite is probably true!

This principle should guide all of your equipment decisions. If it helps you settle down, then use it, and your scores should reflect that. A good rifle is not like a sports car, it is like a comfortable pair of tennis shoes. For this style of shooting the ultimate performance of your gear is almost never a factor -- what matters is whether it helps you get into the Rifleman's Bubble.

And that will be a highly personal thing. I've noted here before, I actually shoot better when I have a neighbor bouncing brass off my back. It's totally counter-intuitive, but it's a mental cue that reminds me what it is I've come to do, and it helps me into the Bubble. Strange equipment may distract, or it may actually help you focus. Most of all, however, is confidence in your equipment. When you aren't worried about it failing, or whether you're using it properly, or if it's the right choice, then you aren't worried about missing your target.

3. After two one-day Appleseeds you're not even late -- the average, among those who do get their patch, is three Appleseeds, i.e., six full days of instruction. I was a tad early. One of my usual instructors needed five weekends. I had one student who needed eleven to get his patch: He was so anxious to get it that he'd inevitably self-destruct, but we got him through it, interestingly at a KD event where we had new information to distract him from the Patch quest.

Above all, stick with it. Find a friend and hit the range when you can. Make shooting well in all positions a normal, natural thing, and you'll break through the barriers. The last 20 points on the AQT are all in your head, seriously.
__________________
Riflemen Needed.

Ask me about Appleseed! Send a PM or see me in the Appleseed subforum.

Last edited by as_rocketman; 03-20-2016 at 12:58 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 03-20-2016, 1:20 PM
Mayor McRifle's Avatar
Mayor McRifle Mayor McRifle is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Central Valley
Posts: 7,647
iTrader: 23 / 100%
Default

I did an Appleseed about a year and a half ago. Three of us got our Rifleman patch. I did it using iron sights, but the other two guys did it using scopes. Based on my observations, it seemed to me that most people shot too quickly. Another thing I noticed was that most people did very poorly in the standing position. I think this is because we've become a nation of bench rest shooters. I actually did my best shooting while standing, but only because I've always made a point of standing up at the range -- at least for awhile. I've always valued the ability to hit a target while shooting offhand.

The sitting position was where I did the most poorly. I was consistently shooting low. I never really worked it out that weekend; I just started aiming a little higher when shooting in the seated position. It helped, but it was still my weakest position score wise. I have since discovered that if I extend my support hand out further on the forend, I can shoot where I'm aiming in the seated position. I don't know why this is so, but it was the fix I needed.

My biggest problem was seeing the small targets for prone shooting in the last stage. I went to my car and got the distance glasses that I use for driving, and it made all the difference. They made the front sight a little blurry, but the target was crisp. After all, you can't hit what you can't see, right?

My best score was a 221 on the second day. After that, the pressure was off, but I was tired. I still managed to clear all the Red Coats at the end of the day, though, including the "plank" (I think that's what they called it).

So, here are my take-aways:
1. Wear distance glasses if you need them.
2. Don't be in a hurry to empty your magazine. Take your time and breathe.
3. Don't be afraid to make some slight adjustments to the basic fundamentals. We're all different, and you have to discover what works best for you.
4. Have an open mind. Go in as a clean slate and give everything they teach you a fair chance. Everyone can benefit from Appleseed, regardless of skill level.
5) Take it seriously, but don't forget to relax and have fun!

I'm going to do another Appleseed this Spring. I want to revisit my fundamentals in all three shooting positions, and I want to see if I can beat my best score.
__________________
Anchors Aweigh

Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 03-20-2016, 6:57 PM
Eljay Eljay is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,985
iTrader: 5 / 100%
Default

I originally qualified with irons but my eyesight's marginal and I prefer a scope. If I can see what I'm shooting I shoot equally well with either but stage 4 I just can't do with the necessary precision on my own.

So my advice, let's talk about the quick stages, 2-3 first. So the first step is to get the time monkey off your back. The way you do that is by practicing getting NPOA, standing up, and then dropping back into position. Do this at home until you can drop darn close into just the right spot. Then check your NPOA and if it's off a bit learn to do some little adjustment that'll get you right on. If you practice this to the extent that you can do some little transition without a lot of time you're golden.

Then at the actual event you know you can drop right into position, or close. You verify, you fix, you check it again and if it looks good you pull the trigger. Every time you reload or transition you check NPOA, if it's good you pull the trigger, if it's bad you adjust and re-check. You do not pull the trigger until it's good. Once it's good you can pretty much trust it and shoot at cadence. If it took longer than expected to get into position then breathe fast or something but don't skip the checks or proceed until you're ready to shoot.

OK, so let's talk about stage 1 and 4. These are big discipline stages.

With stage 1 (standing) you have a lot of time in one sense but time also works against you if you hold the gun up too long. Get an acceptable sight picture (which means you're pointed at the 5) and you can increase the pressure on the trigger. If it stops being acceptable just maintain pressure until you're back on target. Never take more than two shots without lowering your gun (while maintaining cheekweld) and letting your muscles recover then back up and take another shot or two.

I find when I'm shooting it feels like I'm steady for about one more shot than I actually am. It actually becomes faster to rest then to spend so little time acceptable that you can't realistically break the shot.

If you run into serious time issues make "acceptable" equal "in the black" but start with just the 5 zone or even just the V depending on how steady you are. Some people find a deliberate little figure 8 motion is better than trying to hold steady. Again, if it's acceptable, increase pressure, if it's not, just maintain.

On stage 4 it's all about not pulling the trigger until it's perfect. Triple check NPOA before the first shot and after every transition. I check it every shot - so instead of cadence you might shoot every other breath or even every third. Just watch it be perfect and pull the trigger on your schedule.


My last Appleseed I did with a .22 bolt action and could score in the 220s at will but it was too windy to really get past that - the wind was physically moving the gun around to the extent that I couldn't get all the points on stage 4 which is rough.

Last edited by Eljay; 03-20-2016 at 6:59 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 03-20-2016, 8:21 PM
Mac Attack's Avatar
Mac Attack Mac Attack is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 2,111
iTrader: 32 / 100%
Default

The last AS I shot the top shooter was using a single shot Kimberly M82. She gave up point on the rapids. But she had good fundamentals and the shots she got on target were spot on. I got my riflemanschedule badge shooting a tuned 10/22 and decided the last time to try getting my badge with a CZ 452 that I just got. Unfortunately I didn't get it because I was so focused on rapidly working the bolt that I forgot that marksmanship was more important than fast shooting. When the young lady got her badge with the M82 it was pretty humbling to me and made me realize shooting quickly and not accurately was not better than shooting slowly and accurate.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 03-21-2016, 1:34 PM
RNE228 RNE228 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 2,421
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

I qualified on my second Appleseed, and have since been training as an instructor.

This is what I have found

- Progressive Bifocals suck for shooting. I switched to my contacts. Instantly shot better. I LIKE iron sight(Tech-Sights or similar; there are other companies making similar sights). But, I could not see the sights clearly with my progressive bifocal

- Slow down. It is timed fire, but there is plenty of time for the courses of fire when using a riflemans cadence. When I was working on Rifleman I shot too fast.I see other people doing same thing all the time.

- The support hand is a platform for the rifle; don't get a death grip on it. I was bad about that.

- Get that elbow under the rifle. Sounds simple, but I still have to remind myself.

- Take the time and build your nest. Don't just throw it together. Found the same thing when out on the fire engine; just a few seconds making a neat knot or flaking hose neatly made a huge difference when you made an attack on the fire. Same concept. Use the prep time to it's fullest.

- Practice seated. I still have a hard time with seated. Need to do more yoga; I just don't contort like that. The more I get in that position the easier it gets, but for me, I just don't bend well in that position.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 03-21-2016, 4:40 PM
eatmoredonuts eatmoredonuts is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 244
iTrader: 21 / 100%
Default

My first couple of Appleseed's were fraught with bush league gear and ammo issues, which took focus away from practicing proper technique. By my second and third, I was much better acclimated to the stress, changing positions, and learned to take my time placing the shots on the longer stages. By my last one (where I qualified) I had my sight focus and postures finally dialed in. At these AS's I used an AR-15 with fairly inaccurate ammo.

I've used a scope at every one. I also attended a KD, which seems more scope oriented, so there's that. My qualifying Appleseed was done with a slightly modified 10/22 (trigger and barrel) and the same scope, with quality ammo.

I think scopes or red dots can definitely help (I'm pretty much used to them), but the next AS I go to I'm planning on going back to an AR-15 and try to qualify with just iron sights (and better ammo).
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 03-21-2016, 6:03 PM
Pasadena Phil Pasadena Phil is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Pasadena CA
Posts: 10
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Thanks. That's a lot of info and I appreciate it. The weather was perfect at the last shoot so I didn't have your rain excuse. I just sucked. It should always be that nice.

I've given a lot of thought to the last AS meet and two things really stuck in my mind. One: Jacob's observation that I moved around a lot between shots and your comment about my being winded from muscling the gun. Both tell me that I am not comfortable and failing to easily find my NPOA.

Both of you also noticed that I was "dragging wood". But I have dry fired every day since too so I don't expect that will be an issue next time.

I think my key problem was the difficulty I had in quickly orienting myself properly to the target during the prep stage. It's the way I flop down. If I am not close to the position I need to be in to find my NPOA right from the start, I struggle throughout the exercise. That is not a difficult problem to cure. It's like addressing the ball in golf. I just need to get my reference points down and practice until I don't have to think about it. But fussing with the scope just made things much worse. I just ordered the Tech TSR 200RL sights.

I don't know if I can explain the effect iron sights have on my getting oriented properly but I find that just keeping the target in front of me while I flop down and then bringing the sights into proper alignment without the interruption of adjusting my eyes to a magnified picture keeps me better focused. One fluent movement. The target will tell me the truth when I hit the range later this week.

The best score I got practicing before the last shoot was about 165-170 but I didn't even come close to that at the shoot. And I was worse at the end than at the beginning which was very frustrating. But after reviewing my notes and considering the observations and advice from you and Jacob, I don't think I am far off from making a big leap. It's really just a couple of minor adjustments to my technique. Besides, I did have a few 3-4 MOA groups which is normal for me at practice. I be more comfortable next time flopping into position to acquire my NPOA. There are only so many variables to master and I am not a spaz so I WILL get down this soon enough.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 03-21-2016, 6:09 PM
Pasadena Phil Pasadena Phil is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Pasadena CA
Posts: 10
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

As you can see with one of my replies below, you identified my main problem: flopping down. But I find the time I lose fussing with scope to be a distraction that results in my losing my concentration. This is like learning how to ride a bike again. So many variables involved that when you stop and think about them, it seems too complicated. Then suddenly you're riding like a champ and it all becomes natural .I am probably not that far already. It just doesn't seem that way.

I shot next to a young man who was at his first AS last time and he was using Tech sights and shooting 3-4 MOA. I don't know why he didn't go after the badge. If fact, there were at least other shooters who looked ready and they were using iron sights too. That is what gave me the idea that maybe the scope was part of my problem.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 03-22-2016, 11:02 AM
scoutcamper scoutcamper is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 239
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 5akman View Post
One of the instructors at the AS I attended said it took him 6 trips to AS before he qualified. Keep at it and it will come to you!
That was me!

I decided to go to an Appleseed after a range day with friends who I knew through Boy Scouts led to us kids shooting at knockdown targets for an hour, from a bench with 10-22's, getting most of the big ones, then we decided we were done. One of the adults who is an Appleseed Instructor proceeded to sling up in standing with his 10-22 and take down every single remaining knockdown target. That made a huge impression on me and got me to sign up!


So, I went to my first Appleseed, learned a ton, but was stuck in the 170-180's, couldn't get above that. The next Appleseed I upgraded from Golden Bullets to Mini-Mags, and was in the 190's. At that point my issues were in my head. I went to multiple Appleseed's with regularly scoring between 200 and 209, just could not get over the hump to 210.

At one point there was an opportunity available at the time to instruct without having shot Rifleman, and I took it. This is what got me over the hump to 210 and above, seeing things other people were doing unconsciously on the line caused me to recognize those things in myself. My first Appleseed I went to as an Instructor I shot rifleman with a 214. This was my 6th overall Appleseed.

I have since gone on to score in the 220's and 230's, and score full distance Rifleman, it really was a mental thing with me.

I use a scope on all of my rifles because my eyes are really bad, and I haven't had any issues I can blame on my scopes. I make sure my scope is properly mounted for my turkey neck and cheek weld and then it just works, no adjustments needed.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 03-22-2016, 1:14 PM
pennys dad's Avatar
pennys dad pennys dad is offline
Arizona Ex-Pat
CGN Contributor - Lifetime
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Az
Posts: 5,985
iTrader: 200 / 100%
Default

Phil

You asked so here some more.

1st: My first Appleseed I came prepared to win, fast.
I stunk up the field with a score of 100 or so.
This was a full 2 day Appleseed.
I used iron sights on a tricked out S&W 15-22, with specially fitted AR style iron sights, special mags, special ammo, special this and special that. I stunk.

2nd: My second Appleseed I came prepared to win, fast.
I stunk up the field with a score below 100 or so.
This was a full 2 day Appleseed.
I used iron sights on a tricked out Colt 22lr rifle, with specially fitted AR style iron sights, special mags, special ammo, special this and special that. I stunk even more.

3rd: My third Appleseed I came prepared to win, fast but I was beat, not so positive and much more malleable.
I stunk up the field with a score of 100 or so on Saturday but I resolved to set aside my ego and buy a scope if I stunk up Saturday.
So Saturday evening I arrived at and I drove fast to the Turners near home. I walked in and asked for a scope, the only one they had was a 1-4x24 $300 Leupold scope so I bought it, mounted it on my rifle and waited till morning to sight in.
I was using a $100 Marlin 795 with original stock (nothing special), regular bulk ammo, a GI sling and a few regular mags.
I sighted in the next morning, it started raining on us, I was soaking wet and miserable and I hit my first score 228. With the weight off I hit the score every time afterwards.
My main issue was always just me. My group spread was consistent with no focus on the front sight, i didn't understand npoa with sight picture, I didn't consider cadence with breathing and on and on and on.
Scoring rifleman is not easy this is why we talk about persistence. I know one student we have that has perfect form and runs perfect six steps, but the minute he hits AQT he bombs. He finally got the patch but it was after many Appleseeds.

To add, I took another 3 Appleseeds to hit my long Distance score, 2 of those Appleseeds I drove to New Mexico for, 18 hours one way, and 6 full days on two different trips :-) to hit the score on the last day.
__________________
Pennys Dad

Ps 25:4-5 NLT Show me the right path, O Lord; point out the road for me to follow. Lead me by your truth and teach me, for you are the God who saves me. All day long I put my hope in you.

Last edited by pennys dad; 03-22-2016 at 1:24 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 03-22-2016, 5:20 PM
Dr. Jones Dr. Jones is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 58
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

I received my patch on my second seed. and have been pretty consistent since

My first seed was at Corona with a stock 10/22 with tech sights. I was horrible the first day. (and I was under the impression I could shoot well). I had to raise the stock to get a good cheekweld, get the sling sit properly, I was having issues that one does not consider when just out plinking. The second day, I noticed that when I adjusted my front post, my groups would rotate around the square. The SB had me reset the sights - take the post to the bottom and back up 11 clicks and take the rear all the way down to where the app. is almost blocked and start from there. That was the ticket. I was in the ballpark scoring 190's -200's. Near the end of the day, I noticed my shots were all migrating to the left. I had never seen that before and thought I was really failing. Another round of wisdom came from the SB. The direction of the sun plays tricks on a non-hooded sight post, the shadow changes where the front post appears.

My second seed, again at corona, I came back with a vengeance. I brought the rifle I had been using as a bench rest rifle, target 10/22 bull barrel, revolution stock parallax adjustable scope, poly buffer, volquartsen trigger upgrade. i.e tricked out.
I placed the shots in the squares, had 2 moa groups. I was confused. I have been shooting this rifle off of bags (at an indoor range) and could place every shot in a dime. some thing wasn't right - the issue was between the foam plugs. I was excruciatingly close at the end of the first day - 209, and almost cleared the redcoats, just outside of the headshot.
I took hole a piece of advice, you should be comfortable in prone that you can fall asleep on your rifle, look up and still have your sights on the target. Mind you this isn't easy for me with my neck injury, but I tried. It worked well enough for me to hit 211 on my second aqt. then the bubble formed, I don't know what changed, but the SB could tell, I continued to score four more times. I thought after lunch, I needed a challenge. I took it. I brought out a k77/357 BA. I had some issues with the mag change but scored a respectable 196. and cleared the redcoats.

my third seed, I seventh stepped and took my friend and neighbor to Azusa. New SB, new environment and all in one day. I had fun helping my friend and magically when the time came for the aqt, so did the bubble and I scored.

on to the next chapter, I headed back to Azusa for a KD aka advanced rimfire. This is an excellent primer for the full distance. I learned how to read the wind and adjust my scope - something I had never really done considering almost all of my shooting has been 25yds. I believe I was the only on that weekend to score. I knew I was ready.
Back to corona to prepare for my eventual journey across state lines. I brought out the two rifles I intended on taking to AZ. M1Garand and PTR91. I was confident and maybe a little smug, but suffering mechanical issues with the PTR ( scope mount broke) left me a little humbled. Up to the M1 to prove itself. I was still shooting in the 190s when the day ended. The second day, I thought I had fixed the PTR scope mount when it completely broke, back to the M1. Second aqt and the M1 would only load full clips now, what a PITA. I decided to sit a few out.

Out to AZ for a full KD - what a thrill - I highly recommend to everyone. I made a lot of new friends from both states. The CA presence at this shoot was strong. I brought the PTR with a STANAG mount (btw that is 4.25" above bore) and no sling. I was good at 25yds without the sling, thus I seriously mistaken. This was an intense weekend, I learned so much about wind, it's windy in Kingman!. With the good instruction and great group of shooters, the bubble came quickly, but I was still mediocre. We had a very informative discussion at dinner. Day two was much of the same, with the added benefit of learning target detection and rough target ranging. I never had thought about using a scope in that way. Still shooting mediocre. Another excellent discussion and a piece of advice, maybe try adding a sling. I tyrapped a sling to my handgaurd hoping it would not melt. Day three, the surrender of Cornwallis, what an improvement. I was 100% at 100yds. On the second aqt I was four shots away 10,8,7,5. third and final aqt, 10, 7,8,8 - oh so close I thought. Nope - that was more than 80% and good enough for the patch. We then moved onto the silhouettes, great fun watching them fall over then heat the plink of steel. Then for the final trick, out to the 1k range. Another thrill. I had been shooting using hold over/under method and this was a challenge. Hit the steel all the way at 1k yds. I was impressed by my CA counterpart who rang the steel out to 900yds using iron sights on an M1A. Excellent trip- when is the next one...

Next seed was at corona, I brought my newish 1903, I wanted to take this to AZ for distance. Everything was going well. Great group of people again. and a new set of instructors. Just before the day ends, the floorplate screw breaks, making it difficult to load stripper clips. oh well, there goes that hope. ( my shoulder needed the break too) Day 2 brought out the 10/22 - and the realization that the scope was still set for windage and 100yds from burro canyon. Work that out and score four more times( though I gave myself a lower score on one of them) and the whole lot of redcoats perished.

next up - back to AZ - eager with anticipation and the PTR. A different set of instructors - both from CA - and many of the same faces from before. I had recently sighted my rifle in for 100yds - BIG mistake. I was determined this go round to actually use my scope and not hold over. I was frustrated the entire weekend. I had a lot of fun, but was no where near where I wanted to shoot. Another shooter and I discussed the scope height and guessed what my BSZ should be - I should have zero crossings at 25yds and between 500-550yds. typical 30cal comeups don't work

up next! probably another seed at corona- if I am lucky with a new CZ455
definitely back to AZ in October with the PTR
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 03-22-2016, 8:16 PM
5akman 5akman is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 179
iTrader: 5 / 100%
Default

Scoutcamper,

Yes, you are the one I was referring to! I couldn't remember your
user name. Anyway, I was impressed that you didn't give up on making rifleman and have now become a Shoot Boss, good work!



Quote:
Originally Posted by scoutcamper View Post
That was me!

I decided to go to an Appleseed after a range day with friends who I knew through Boy Scouts led to us kids shooting at knockdown targets for an hour, from a bench with 10-22's, getting most of the big ones, then we decided we were done. One of the adults who is an Appleseed Instructor proceeded to sling up in standing with his 10-22 and take down every single remaining knockdown target. That made a huge impression on me and got me to sign up!


So, I went to my first Appleseed, learned a ton, but was stuck in the 170-180's, couldn't get above that. The next Appleseed I upgraded from Golden Bullets to Mini-Mags, and was in the 190's. At that point my issues were in my head. I went to multiple Appleseed's with regularly scoring between 200 and 209, just could not get over the hump to 210.

At one point there was an opportunity available at the time to instruct without having shot Rifleman, and I took it. This is what got me over the hump to 210 and above, seeing things other people were doing unconsciously on the line caused me to recognize those things in myself. My first Appleseed I went to as an Instructor I shot rifleman with a 214. This was my 6th overall Appleseed.

I have since gone on to score in the 220's and 230's, and score full distance Rifleman, it really was a mental thing with me.

I use a scope on all of my rifles because my eyes are really bad, and I haven't had any issues I can blame on my scopes. I make sure my scope is properly mounted for my turkey neck and cheek weld and then it just works, no adjustments needed.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 03-22-2016, 9:25 PM
as_rocketman's Avatar
as_rocketman as_rocketman is offline
CGSSA Leader
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Pasadena
Posts: 2,764
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default Couple of follow-ups

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pasadena Phil View Post
I think my key problem was the difficulty I had in quickly orienting myself properly to the target during the prep stage. It's the way I flop down. If I am not close to the position I need to be in to find my NPOA right from the start, I struggle throughout the exercise. [...]

I don't know if I can explain the effect iron sights have on my getting oriented properly but I find that just keeping the target in front of me while I flop down and then bringing the sights into proper alignment without the interruption of adjusting my eyes to a magnified picture keeps me better focused. One fluent movement. The target will tell me the truth when I hit the range later this week.
Interesting. It does make sense, though.

Let me tackle them individually. First, the "feel" of iron sights is different for several reasons -- not having to adjust to magnification is one, especially if your scope isn't on there perfectly and you have to hunt for the image. There is also the additional background you see with irons, which may distract or may be less jarring since you're used to it.

But there is also the issue of height over bore. Folks with scopes (and a lick of sense) try to mount them as low to the tube as possible, and for good reason. The lower your sights are, the less neck flexibility you need. It also affects your long-range trajectory, but that's not an issue here.

I'm betting the scope made you hunt for a good cheekweld partly to find the image, but more because you had to set your head up higher on the stock. I saw the stock pad you made, and that's a good idea, but it's still more of a stretch.

My little Marlin has a pretty long Monte Carlo stock that fits me well. My best AQT score ever is actually with a BAR .270 Win, and it's scoped, but its stock fits me beautifully. Hmm, coincidence?

When I started shooting the M1 Garand, I struggled with it. Stock was too short, or so I thought. I tried compensating with extenders, no good. Eventually I realized the problem was in my neck -- even though the Garand has pretty low-HOB irons, I was looking up through them instead of ahead at them. Two months worth of neck-stretches later my accuracy came back, the stock extenders came off, and life is good again. You may have a similar experience.

The other issue of getting the "flop" right: While I try to demonstrate transitions to recover your approximate NPOA right off the bat, and there is definitely value in making a fine nest for yourself in prep... I actually don't worry about it. Not anymore.

With practice, I've gotten so that I can shift my body pretty much on target, even with rather large shifts, in only one or two tries. Like I say in the class, make a big NPOA shift. Pick your body up and dump it where it needs to go. It takes time to learn like everything else. But the benefit is that I don't really care if my first NPOA check comes in 4 MOA off or 40. I'm going to make a big shift either way, and the second one may not be perfect but will almost certainly touch black.

Big NPOA shift vs. little NPOA "nudge" also may help you stay relaxed. Certainly you can and should nudge if that's all you need -- but when you're new to the game, that nudge actually stresses your body. You're pushing, typically with a toe, while most of the rest of you stays put and pushes back. It's very easy to not be totally relaxed once that happens, without even being aware of it, and that leads to thrown shots.

Next time you shoot a group, remember what your last NPOA shift was, and see if your groups trail in that direction. If that's the case, then that's the answer: Your NPOA shift isn't complete, and your body is fighting your last adjustment. Try a more dramatic shift and see if that fixes the problem, and worry about doing it fast later.
__________________
Riflemen Needed.

Ask me about Appleseed! Send a PM or see me in the Appleseed subforum.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 03-22-2016, 10:04 PM
scoutcamper scoutcamper is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 239
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 5akman View Post
Scoutcamper,

Yes, you are the one I was referring to! I couldn't remember your
user name. Anyway, I was impressed that you didn't give up on making rifleman and have now become a Shoot Boss, good work!
Thank you for the nice words! And FYI I am not a Shoot Boss(yet ), I got my Red Hat at the November shoot you were at.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 03-23-2016, 2:48 PM
Pasadena Phil Pasadena Phil is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Pasadena CA
Posts: 10
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default Great points.

Quote:
Originally Posted by as_rocketman View Post

I'm betting the scope made you hunt for a good cheekweld partly to find the image, but more because you had to set your head up higher on the stock. I saw the stock pad you made, and that's a good idea, but it's still more of a stretch.
....

The other issue of getting the "flop" right: While I try to demonstrate transitions to recover your approximate NPOA right off the bat, and there is definitely value in making a fine nest for yourself in prep... I actually don't worry about it. Not anymore.

Big NPOA shift vs. little NPOA "nudge" also may help you stay relaxed. Certainly you can and should nudge if that's all you need -- but when you're new to the game, that nudge actually stresses your body.
You are right about my cheek pad. One of the main reasons I decided that the scope was my main distraction was because while the cheek weld on that pad was perfect at home after fussing so much making it, it put my face about 3/8" away from the stock in prone position. I was okay sitting and standing. At home, I just closed my eyes, pulled the gun up to my face and when I opened my eyes, I was almost perfect. Not being able to do that at the range was very frustrating. So now that cheek pad and scope have been removed and my cheek weld i now perfect with iron sights.

The "big" rather than "nudge" NPOA shift is also a great suggestion. I will be marking up my mat too with a few reference points to refer to when lay it down and when I flop down. The main one will be an arrow pointing to the target so I get my comfortable angle right every time.

It will be interesting to see if going to iron sights makes things better for me or worse. A couple of years ago, I restored a Yugo 24/47 Mauser and when I shot it for the first time with a couple of friends, we all hit that 12" steel plate at 200 yards at Angeles (from the bench) and to my surprise, even me. Even though that gun is a flat shooter, those sights are tough. But it got me wondering how I would do with my other rifles. So I started shooting them all with iron sights. Losing the magnification helped me develop a better feel for distance. Kind of like shooting a basketball. When I went back to scopes, I found that I didn't like any of my scopes anymore and replaced them all with better quality and more suitable scopes.

At 25 yards, I see the target perfectly fine and there is less jiggle than when I use a scope. I'll do what works best to get my badge but it would be especially satisfying to do it the old fashioned way. Besides, 3-4 MOA and the adjustments you have to make to zero in with are the same with or without scopes. It's more of a mental thing at that distance.

I can talk a pretty good game but Appleseed has been a humbling experience. I didn't go believing I was good but I didn't realize how bad I was. I also learned that most people know more about guns than they do about shooting. I'm pretty sure I will be much better next time.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 03-23-2016, 9:11 PM
as_rocketman's Avatar
as_rocketman as_rocketman is offline
CGSSA Leader
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Pasadena
Posts: 2,764
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

Yep, there's a lot to learn... I've been instructing six years and I still learn lots of things on the trail.

If you're at my next one -- the Rimfire KD is on April 9-10, and there's still several seats available -- remind me to bring a couple of rifles to try on. I wonder if you would have the same problems through my ACOG, since it has such a huge eyebox. (Not all of them do, but the TA-33 does.)

But I think I know how you feel. My most recent rifle purchase, a Ruger #1, has peep sights on it. Just feels better for that rifle and for its intended use (exploding pumpkins and felling tasty animals at 0 to 250 yards). At the end of the day, the system should exceed the sum of its parts, if it's working properly for you.
__________________
Riflemen Needed.

Ask me about Appleseed! Send a PM or see me in the Appleseed subforum.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 03-23-2016, 9:16 PM
pennys dad's Avatar
pennys dad pennys dad is offline
Arizona Ex-Pat
CGN Contributor - Lifetime
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Az
Posts: 5,985
iTrader: 200 / 100%
Default

Notes in line

But before you read down, find what is right for you and stick to it. It may take awhile to get the patch but that is normal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pasadena Phil View Post

I offer you a different thought on getting into position, when i finally hit my score, I didn't do it by marking my mat spots or even pre-staging my position. I just got into my position (slowly, deliberately, I was a fairly heavy human then), checked my NPOA, adjusted, re-checked my NPOA and then trusted my NPOA and sent lead.

At 25 yards, I see the target perfectly fine and there is less jiggle than when I use a scope.
jiggle when using a scope at 25 yards could be that you have the scope set at to high a magnification. The idea is not to see the target clearly it is to see the reticles clearly and the target becomes fuzzy.

I'll do what works best to get my badge but it would be especially satisfying to do it the old fashioned way.
Something to consider, is stick to one platform (rifle) so you don't have to relearn the rifle.

Besides, 3-4 MOA and the adjustments you have to make to zero in with are the same with or without scopes. It's more of a mental thing at that distance.

I can talk a pretty good game but Appleseed has been a humbling experience. I didn't go believing I was good but I didn't realize how bad I was. I also learned that most people know more about guns than they do about shooting. I'm pretty sure I will be much better next time.
__________________
Pennys Dad

Ps 25:4-5 NLT Show me the right path, O Lord; point out the road for me to follow. Lead me by your truth and teach me, for you are the God who saves me. All day long I put my hope in you.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 03-28-2016, 5:00 PM
flynPb flynPb is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 20
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Hello to all - - this is a great collection of information and all of value.
I agree with the mental emphasis and how important mental [positive] attitude is to getting into this bubble effect.
I took a few more weekends to reach the mark myself -- more weekends than I thought when I signed up for my first weekend as well.
But I have to blame myself for listening to too many different messages from too many different [well intended] people who had more experience than myself.
First I was wrapped up in equipment choices and re-thinking issues that I should have been past already: 1st-seed with .223 [and irons] then a 2nd with .22LR [and irons] then a 3rd-seed with .223 [scoped] and then . . . and on.
None of these switches really were much help getting mentally ready and flexible enough to assume that bubble condition with much consistency. I could have probably proved to myself which optic/iron solution was best for me with a full day at the regular-pay range and a buddy helping. As for caliber or which rifle? That too could have been solved and put to rest with enough work at the range and some practice flopping into position at home and some dry firing. But I do not lament having the 6-steps and modeling of instructor's positions for the 4-different hold-positions drilled & repeated to me with each class.
I have two analogies to help make my overall point [if I may]
1. I showed up at my first A.S.weekend with a large range bag and lots of support equipment [chairs, toolbox, cooler, etc.] But by the time I earned the patch, I only brought a third of that stuff. I really didn't need as much as I first thought.
2. I used to try to make the seated position work: first that compact, close-legged seated position - it didn't really work for me, but the instructors made it clear that this was preferred for stage-2 [more stable.] I reluctantly tried to make the open legged, seated position work, and it was spongy for me and mot much more easy for me to get into. . . . Open legged also seemed not to be very stable, but I tried it on my 2nd or 3rd weekend. Finally, I just committed to the faster, kneeling position. Sure it is not rock solid. But I made a decision to do what worked for me and think of a more important issue [for me] and try to not spend as much time messing with getting into a position that never really offered me what I wanted. I focused on the 6-steps, while kneeling and my cadence and yes, my NPOA may suffer a little while I am kneeling, but I can consistently hit 40-points on stage 2 now. It may be a perishable skill, but some of these others techniques are as well.

If I have not made my point clear enough; its to focus on the bigger issues and discern which are not important for you - - and send that attention to where you decide it makes a bigger difference. I tried to make everything important and everything equal, but I found that did not work for me.
-jeff
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 03-30-2016, 4:19 PM
vlady's Avatar
vlady vlady is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: LBC
Posts: 721
iTrader: 38 / 100%
Default

I got mine during the first AQT in my first day of Appleseed. This was using a 10/22 with a bull barrel and scope. But, I'm very comfortable with this rifle and have probably shot close to 10k rounds through it. Once I got the respiratory pause down, it made shooting very easy and most importantly, consistent. Once I got that down, clovers were a plenty. It was an awesome event and I'm going again on June 11th with the wife.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 04-21-2016, 7:18 AM
SFCRangerDoc's Avatar
SFCRangerDoc SFCRangerDoc is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Medford, Oregon
Posts: 829
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

I shot a 219 Rifleman the first day of my first Appleseed here at the Castro Valley shoot. Using my MP-15 Sport with a 1-4x Bushnell BDC. I dont have the greatest eyesight so having the scope definitely helped. I have been shooting since I could walk basically and have the fundamentals of shooting down. There are some people who take a year or more to qualify, there are some that take just one shoot. It all depends on if you know your gun, know the fundamentals, and how much practice you've been able to do. I am now an IIT for Appleseed and get the honor of passing on my knowledge to other shooters!
__________________

Ask me about Project Appleseed!

Lord, make me fast and accurate. Let my aim be true and my hand faster than those who would seek to destroy me. Grant me victory over my foes and those that wish to do harm to me and mine. Let not my last thought be “If only I had my gun”; and Lord if today is truly the day that You call me home, let me die in a pile of empty brass - Shooters Prayer
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 04-21-2016, 7:49 AM
Bainter1212's Avatar
Bainter1212 Bainter1212 is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Sheridan, WYO
Posts: 5,936
iTrader: 83 / 100%
Default

I have only been to one Appleseed so far and did not shoot rifleman....got kinda close.

I know what my issue is........my body.
For the last several years, I have been so busy working, and being a husband and father, that I have let my physical body deteriorate.
My muscle strength has been way down. I got to 30 lbs overweight. Have you ever lifted 30 lbs? Just imagine that strapped to your belly.
I had a hard time getting comfortable in the seated or prone because my flexibility was poor. My fat belly would push on my diaphram, making me short of breath. My back would ache in the prone. My core strength was near nonexistent.

By the end of the day I would be physically exhausted.

That was last year and I have been slowly making that right. Eating better, losing weight and strengthening my body.

I plan to shoot my next Appleseed in the fall and I hope to be in better shape by then, enough to remove the distraction of a body that struggles to maintain position.

That's my two cents.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 04-21-2016, 1:12 PM
hardlyworking hardlyworking is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,207
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

That's a good point Bainter: Distractions.

My first Appleseed I brought a 525 box of bulk ammo, and I had a hooooorrible time of FTEs, leading me to over-racking the bolt, dumping live rounds on the deck. It was *maddening* getting 2 shots off on Stage 2.

Fix the distractions, so you can focus on success. If that means losing weight and toning up, that's awesome for more than just your shooting. If it means bringing the right rifle, the right ammo, and KNOWING that its right (because you practiced), you arrive with confidence and you persevere.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 06-12-2016, 7:04 AM
Pasadena Phil Pasadena Phil is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Pasadena CA
Posts: 10
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default I'm back! (Jury duty mostly)

Quote:
Originally Posted by pennys dad View Post
Phil

You asked so here some more.

1st: My first Appleseed I came prepared to win, fast.
I stunk up the field with a score of 100 or so.
This was a full 2 day Appleseed.
I used iron sights on a tricked out S&W 15-22, with specially fitted AR style iron sights, special mags, special ammo, special this and special that. I stunk.

2nd: My second Appleseed I came prepared to win, fast.
I stunk up the field with a score below 100 or so.
This was a full 2 day Appleseed.
I used iron sights on a tricked out Colt 22lr rifle, with specially fitted AR style iron sights, special mags, special ammo, special this and special that. I stunk even more.

3rd: My third Appleseed I came prepared to win, fast but I was beat, not so positive and much more malleable.
I stunk up the field with a score of 100 or so on Saturday but I resolved to set aside my ego and buy a scope if I stunk up Saturday.
So Saturday evening I arrived at and I drove fast to the Turners near home. I walked in and asked for a scope, the only one they had was a 1-4x24 $300 Leupold scope so I bought it, mounted it on my rifle and waited till morning to sight in.
I was using a $100 Marlin 795 with original stock (nothing special), regular bulk ammo, a GI sling and a few regular mags.
I sighted in the next morning, it started raining on us, I was soaking wet and miserable and I hit my first score 228. With the weight off I hit the score every time afterwards.
My main issue was always just me. My group spread was consistent with no focus on the front sight, i didn't understand npoa with sight picture, I didn't consider cadence with breathing and on and on and on.
Scoring rifleman is not easy this is why we talk about persistence. I know one student we have that has perfect form and runs perfect six steps, but the minute he hits AQT he bombs. He finally got the patch but it was after many Appleseeds.

To add, I took another 3 Appleseeds to hit my long Distance score, 2 of those Appleseeds I drove to New Mexico for, 18 hours one way, and 6 full days on two different trips :-) to hit the score on the last day.
I didn't realize that this thread had become so lively but I sure appreciate all of the comments. Great stuff!

Many of the comments, including yours and Rocketman's, cite "it's mostly in your head". I've known that from the beginning. There is a large element of "zen" to this.

That was interesting about how big a difference the scope made for you. I've been practicing with my new iron sights at home for a couple of months now and was very careful to readjust my cheek weld pad so I can acquire my sight line (very close anyway) with my eyes closed.

One question, several people mentioned the importance of selecting the right ammo. I have a hard time believing the ammo makes much of a difference at 25 meters. So long as cycle without squibs, it shouldn't be a factor shooting 3-4 MOA at that distance. I've been using the Federal Champion Bulk (I have tons of it) and CCI Blazer. They aren't match rounds but they are plenty good enough for the job. Am I right or wrong?

But it's never been about the equipment. It's been about me and I always knew it. At this stage, it's "stop thinking and just do it". I need more range time. I WILL do this. I'm already finishing prepping my Mini-14 for the actual distance challenge.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 06-12-2016, 5:10 PM
Dr. Jones Dr. Jones is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 58
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

Phil - to your point
yesterday I was shooting an AQT and took a 223 casing down my sleeve on my support arm (during the third stage)
I didn't realize it was there until I was almost done with the course of fire
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 20160612_175849 (800x600).jpg (38.7 KB, 16 views)
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 06-12-2016, 8:13 PM
Eljay Eljay is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,985
iTrader: 5 / 100%
Default

I got a similar burn where one rolled up against my bare elbow. Oops.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 06-12-2016, 9:44 PM
as_rocketman's Avatar
as_rocketman as_rocketman is offline
CGSSA Leader
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Pasadena
Posts: 2,764
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pasadena Phil View Post
One question, several people mentioned the importance of selecting the right ammo. I have a hard time believing the ammo makes much of a difference at 25 meters. So long as cycle without squibs, it shouldn't be a factor shooting 3-4 MOA at that distance. I've been using the Federal Champion Bulk (I have tons of it) and CCI Blazer. They aren't match rounds but they are plenty good enough for the job. Am I right or wrong?
You're 99% likely to be right.

Accuracy of the shooter and accuracy of the rifle/ammunition combination do not stack. Those errors are uncorrelated. If you're a 4 MOA shooter -- which is good enough to get a Rifleman score -- then the difference between using a 1 MOA rifle / ammo and 2 MOA is almost undetectable (4.12 MOA vs. 4.47 MOA when errors are combined).

However, if you just so happen to find ammunition that the rifle hates, say throwing 4 MOA or worse on its own, then you will have a problem. But this is not typical. It practically takes Thunderbolts through a Bentz chambered barrel to get that kind of mismatch.

I earned my patch using CCI Blazer, in a humble Marlin 70. You can too.
__________________
Riflemen Needed.

Ask me about Appleseed! Send a PM or see me in the Appleseed subforum.
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 06-13-2016, 4:43 AM
hardlyworking hardlyworking is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,207
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pasadena Phil View Post
One question, several people mentioned the importance of selecting the right ammo. I have a hard time believing the ammo makes much of a difference at 25 meters. So long as cycle without squibs, it shouldn't be a factor shooting 3-4 MOA at that distance. I've been using the Federal Champion Bulk (I have tons of it) and CCI Blazer. They aren't match rounds but they are plenty good enough for the job. Am I right or wrong?
For me it had nothing to do with "match rounds" it had to do with what the gun/action likes, and general ammo quality.

If you buy bulk pack ammo that would have been worth 5 cents a round 3 years ago (not current pricing) or less, you are going to get 5 c/r quality control = minimal

Buy the rounds in the 50 or 100 round boxes/sleeves and QC goes up. Somebody on the Calguns rimfire boards goes into pretty good detail about it and demonstrated such. Made a believer out of me. I put about 400 rounds down this past April, made Rifleman and had zero failures of any kind.

So for I think most of the people responding here, and certainly myself its not about the ammo being particularly accurate, its that you have a stash of one kind, you can zero your rifle with at 25 yards, and you KNOW that it will run your action every time because you've tested it.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 06-13-2016, 6:24 AM
Dr. Jones Dr. Jones is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 58
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hardlyworking View Post
For me it had nothing to do with "match rounds" it had to do with what the gun/action likes, and general ammo quality.

If you buy bulk pack ammo that would have been worth 5 cents a round 3 years ago (not current pricing) or less, you are going to get 5 c/r quality control = minimal

Buy the rounds in the 50 or 100 round boxes/sleeves and QC goes up. Somebody on the Calguns rimfire boards goes into pretty good detail about it and demonstrated such. Made a believer out of me. I put about 400 rounds down this past April, made Rifleman and had zero failures of any kind.

So for I think most of the people responding here, and certainly myself its not about the ammo being particularly accurate, its that you have a stash of one kind, you can zero your rifle with at 25 yards, and you KNOW that it will run your action every time because you've tested it.
To your point
In my 10/22 with a subsonic barrel-
I normally run cci standard velocity and have had good results with minimal failures
I have tried Eley club and it was horrible
Federal auto match was ok, just not great( probably 3moa ammo)
Aguila subsonic was decent, just hard to find
Aguila super extra SV was comparable to the CCI
Aguila competition target had been the best until sunday, just expensive and not too easy to locate
sunday - I tried RWS50 and I was stove piping regularly, I switched to Eley Rifle target and it was flawless
Eley target was phenominal, I was 2MOA- and I know that was mostly the shooter
RWS50 was good - I was 3moa when I wasn't having an issue

My takeaway was the lubricant on the ammo was a contributing factor, the RWS is extremely greasy and left a lot of residue in the chamber( the cases showed signs after extraction)
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 06-13-2016, 8:24 AM
Eljay Eljay is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,985
iTrader: 5 / 100%
Default

Interestingly enough one of the things you can do when you're around Rifleman level is go prone and shoot a few brands of .22 and decide for yourself if you can tell the difference between various brands.

I think I used CCI Mini Mags my first time since my 10/22 has always run better around that velocity range and I had a bunch of them. Since then I've used surplus green tip M855, and I've used semi-fancy SK Magazine since I was shooting a bolt action .22 where it benefitted from nice .22 but at the same time I didn't want to drop the cash on anything better. Definitely a compromise.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 06-13-2016, 3:57 PM
Dr. Jones Dr. Jones is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 58
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Jones View Post
I received my patch on my second seed. and have been pretty consistent since

My first seed was at Corona with a stock 10/22 with tech sights. I was horrible the first day. (and I was under the impression I could shoot well). I had to raise the stock to get a good cheekweld, get the sling sit properly, I was having issues that one does not consider when just out plinking. The second day, I noticed that when I adjusted my front post, my groups would rotate around the square. The SB had me reset the sights - take the post to the bottom and back up 11 clicks and take the rear all the way down to where the app. is almost blocked and start from there. That was the ticket. I was in the ballpark scoring 190's -200's. Near the end of the day, I noticed my shots were all migrating to the left. I had never seen that before and thought I was really failing. Another round of wisdom came from the SB. The direction of the sun plays tricks on a non-hooded sight post, the shadow changes where the front post appears.

My second seed, again at corona, I came back with a vengeance. I brought the rifle I had been using as a bench rest rifle, target 10/22 bull barrel, revolution stock parallax adjustable scope, poly buffer, volquartsen trigger upgrade. i.e tricked out.
I placed the shots in the squares, had 2 moa groups. I was confused. I have been shooting this rifle off of bags (at an indoor range) and could place every shot in a dime. some thing wasn't right - the issue was between the foam plugs. I was excruciatingly close at the end of the first day - 209, and almost cleared the redcoats, just outside of the headshot.
I took hole a piece of advice, you should be comfortable in prone that you can fall asleep on your rifle, look up and still have your sights on the target. Mind you this isn't easy for me with my neck injury, but I tried. It worked well enough for me to hit 211 on my second aqt. then the bubble formed, I don't know what changed, but the SB could tell, I continued to score four more times. I thought after lunch, I needed a challenge. I took it. I brought out a k77/357 BA. I had some issues with the mag change but scored a respectable 196. and cleared the redcoats.

my third seed, I seventh stepped and took my friend and neighbor to Azusa. New SB, new environment and all in one day. I had fun helping my friend and magically when the time came for the aqt, so did the bubble and I scored.

on to the next chapter, I headed back to Azusa for a KD aka advanced rimfire. This is an excellent primer for the full distance. I learned how to read the wind and adjust my scope - something I had never really done considering almost all of my shooting has been 25yds. I believe I was the only on that weekend to score. I knew I was ready.
Back to corona to prepare for my eventual journey across state lines. I brought out the two rifles I intended on taking to AZ. M1Garand and PTR91. I was confident and maybe a little smug, but suffering mechanical issues with the PTR ( scope mount broke) left me a little humbled. Up to the M1 to prove itself. I was still shooting in the 190s when the day ended. The second day, I thought I had fixed the PTR scope mount when it completely broke, back to the M1. Second aqt and the M1 would only load full clips now, what a PITA. I decided to sit a few out.

Out to AZ for a full KD - what a thrill - I highly recommend to everyone. I made a lot of new friends from both states. The CA presence at this shoot was strong. I brought the PTR with a STANAG mount (btw that is 4.25" above bore) and no sling. I was good at 25yds without the sling, thus I seriously mistaken. This was an intense weekend, I learned so much about wind, it's windy in Kingman!. With the good instruction and great group of shooters, the bubble came quickly, but I was still mediocre. We had a very informative discussion at dinner. Day two was much of the same, with the added benefit of learning target detection and rough target ranging. I never had thought about using a scope in that way. Still shooting mediocre. Another excellent discussion and a piece of advice, maybe try adding a sling. I tyrapped a sling to my handgaurd hoping it would not melt. Day three, the surrender of Cornwallis, what an improvement. I was 100% at 100yds. On the second aqt I was four shots away 10,8,7,5. third and final aqt, 10, 7,8,8 - oh so close I thought. Nope - that was more than 80% and good enough for the patch. We then moved onto the silhouettes, great fun watching them fall over then heat the plink of steel. Then for the final trick, out to the 1k range. Another thrill. I had been shooting using hold over/under method and this was a challenge. Hit the steel all the way at 1k yds. I was impressed by my CA counterpart who rang the steel out to 900yds using iron sights on an M1A. Excellent trip- when is the next one...

Next seed was at corona, I brought my newish 1903, I wanted to take this to AZ for distance. Everything was going well. Great group of people again. and a new set of instructors. Just before the day ends, the floorplate screw breaks, making it difficult to load stripper clips. oh well, there goes that hope. ( my shoulder needed the break too) Day 2 brought out the 10/22 - and the realization that the scope was still set for windage and 100yds from burro canyon. Work that out and score four more times( though I gave myself a lower score on one of them) and the whole lot of redcoats perished.

next up - back to AZ - eager with anticipation and the PTR. A different set of instructors - both from CA - and many of the same faces from before. I had recently sighted my rifle in for 100yds - BIG mistake. I was determined this go round to actually use my scope and not hold over. I was frustrated the entire weekend. I had a lot of fun, but was no where near where I wanted to shoot. Another shooter and I discussed the scope height and guessed what my BSZ should be - I should have zero crossings at 25yds and between 500-550yds. typical 30cal comeups don't work

up next! probably another seed at corona- if I am lucky with a new CZ455
definitely back to AZ in October with the PTR
And the story continues:
Made it to Corona, with the new CZ...
We had 20+ people on a line that could hold 15, and the weather was horrible. Though being windy is generally not a big deal, at Raahauges it is bad. The range is built on a river delta, the dust gets bad and is extremely fine. Shot the CZ all Saturday, and it started to show signs of fatigue. Came back sunday to much the same conditions, brought out the 10/22, and it succumb to the dust. the bolt would stick open and not cycle properly. Swapped in a mini-14, thinking the mini could handle anything. NOPE, 2 AQTs and I had a live round that would not extract, got it out, and tried again, 2AQTs later, same issue.( dirt in a tight chamber is not a good thing)

Fast forward a couple of months to june. back to Raahauges with excellent weather. The CZ was flawless. scored all four AQTs on Saturday. Wanted a challenge and an instructor suggested doing it with a 30cal. Brought the PTR sunday, shot score three times before I ran out of ammo, even with having ammo issues. Put that away for some fun and tried the 1944 M1 Carbine ( rack grade with rack grade ammo) - more than 4MOA. After lunch I used the 10/22 again to prove that it wasn't my technique. finished out strong with a new personal high score.

corona in sept? maybe
Kingman in oct? Definately
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 06-13-2016, 5:39 PM
randomBytes's Avatar
randomBytes randomBytes is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 1,605
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

OP I used a scope for Appleseed - and for older eyes its not a bad idea ;-)

My 1st Appleseed I had problems with crappy ammo - shooting an AR with .22 upper, and the only ammo I could find was super dirty - by the end of the first day I was getting multiple failures per magazine.
2nd day I cleaned the rifle at lunch time.

The other problem was getting a consistent cheek weld - not easy with an AR.

2nd time out, I just went for the 2nd day; I had better ammo, and taped a small lump of foam padding to the stock which help a lot to get a consistent cheek weld - scored rifleman a couple of times that day ;-)
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 06-16-2016, 11:17 AM
BZLuck BZLuck is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 1
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

My wife and I have now been to 5 Appleseeds. All of them have been in lovely Rainbow, CA.

Before attending, my wife had hardly shot anything in her life other than trap with a shotgun, and a few trips to the pistol range over the years. I have been shooting *something* since I was teenager.

I got lucky. I found my NPOA and understood how to replicate it on the first day of my very first Appleseed. I got my Rifleman patch using Tech-Sights before lunch on Day 2. My poor wife was all over the place. With iron sights, she could barely hit the paper. She struggled and got frustrated and had a horrible weekend.

We went again a few months later, this time I equipped her with a scope for her 10/22. She VASTLY improved. At least she knew what she was actually pointing the rifle at. She stayed in the 150-ish score range, but at least she was having a lot more fun.

We went 2 more times after that, just because we enjoy attending these. The range is about a hour away and we make a whole weekend out of it. We to to Temecula on Friday and get a hotel for 2 nights...

Fast forward to last April. About a week before our next Appleseed. She had told me she found her NPOA, so I ran a test. I clamped a laser to her scope rail and put a target at the end of the hallway. That laser was ALL OVER the place. Dancing around like a bug on a streetlamp. I knew at that point she may have *thought* she knew what the NPOA was but I knew she didn't.

So I showed her. She was amazed that I could almost take a nap and keep that laser sitting on a quarter. So i taught her. I moved her rifle position, her elbows, her hips.

And she found it and understood that she had been doing it wrong all this time.

At that Appleseed, she shot in the 190's. I think she'll get it the next time. Afterall, this was the really the first time she shot an entire Appleseed weekend fully understanding how NPOA works.

I think the most important lesson to learn is, you will pretty much never get your Rifleman patch if you do not fully understand what your NPOA is and how to (somewhat) quickly acquire it.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 06-18-2016, 9:42 AM
Eljay Eljay is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,985
iTrader: 5 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BZLuck View Post
I think the most important lesson to learn is, you will pretty much never get your Rifleman patch if you do not fully understand what your NPOA is and how to (somewhat) quickly acquire it.
That seems fair. That and how to shift it around and get pretty close to the new point so you don't spend forever on the transitions and reloads.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 3:32 PM.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Proudly hosted by GeoVario the Premier 2A host.
Calguns.net, the 'Calguns' name and all associated variants and logos are ® Trademark and © Copyright 2002-2021, Calguns.net an Incorporated Company All Rights Reserved.
All opinions, statements and remarks made by Calguns.net on this web site and elsewhere are solely attributable to Calguns.net.



Seams2SewBySusy