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  #1  
Old 05-21-2019, 6:58 AM
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Default Herrera v Wyoming - Major Victory for Crow Tribe

But what does it mean, exactly? It sounds like if you can claim any Crow heritage that now you may hunt wherever/whenever you want as long as a reasonable person could say the area was unoccupied.

Quote:
A member of an American Indian tribe won his U.S. Supreme Court case May 20 that was closely watched by tribes and states across the country as well as hunting, ranching, and wildlife groups.

Justice Neil M. Gorsuch joined the four Democratic-appointees in the 5-4 decision by Justice Sonia Sotomayor, finding the Crow tribe’s treaty hunting right that pre-dated Wyoming statehood still allows the tribe to hunt there today.

This is the second time this term Gorsuch has joined the more liberal bloc of the court in a win for an Indian tribe. His nomination to the high court was supported by tribal groups.

The win for Clayvin Herrera, “along with the Court’s earlier case in Cougar Den, mark a reinvigorated willingness of the Court to give meaning and life to the treaty rights of American Indians,” said Dorsey & Whitney partner Forrest Tahdooahnippah, referring to the other American Indian case this term where Gorsuch joined the liberals.

Fighting his Wyoming state convictions for hunting violations, Herrera argued that a 19th century treaty between the tribe and the federal government allowed him to hunt there.

When the tribe signed the treaty, it had land in present-day Montana and Wyoming. It gave up over 30 million acres in exchange for certain promises from the federal government, including “the right to hunt on the unoccupied lands of the United States so long as game may be found thereon” and “peace subsists . . . on the borders of the hunting districts,” Sotomayor noted.

<snip>

read the rest here: https://news.bloomberglaw.com/us-law...n-hunting-case
You could argue any remote area of land is unoccupied. What does it mean for private property? State land? National parks? Game/wildlife refuges? Protected species?
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Last edited by CABilly; 05-21-2019 at 7:00 AM..
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Old 05-21-2019, 7:02 AM
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I read on Guy Eastman's or Eastman's FB page yesterday about this a little. One guy claimed to have knowledge that this guy was caught poaching and hired a high $ attorney to fight it and they came up with this defense. I had wondered about why this guy was in this position to begin with. Before that I had seen this in OT with the MSM web page claiming "Gorsuch (sp*) sides with liberals".

Who knows how this will shake out.
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Old 05-21-2019, 7:12 AM
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Originally Posted by lewdogg21 View Post
I read on Guy Eastman's or Eastman's FB page yesterday about this a little. One guy claimed to have knowledge that this guy was caught poaching and hired a high $ attorney to fight it and they came up with this defense. I had wondered about why this guy was in this position to begin with. Before that I had seen this in OT with the MSM web page claiming "Gorsuch (sp*) sides with liberals".

Who knows how this will shake out.
Ah, I got banned from OT years ago with no explanation. I don't miss it

One thing I read was that he chased some elk off the reservation onto national forest, killed them, then brought them back to the reservation and was subsequently busted for poaching - no license and out of season.
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Old 05-21-2019, 7:35 AM
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I'm part of the Raven tribe. I want some hunting rights too!
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Old 05-21-2019, 7:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CABilly View Post
Ah, I got banned from OT years ago with no explanation. I don't miss it

One thing I read was that he chased some elk off the reservation onto national forest, killed them, then brought them back to the reservation and was subsequently busted for poaching - no license and out of season.
According to this article he chased them right out of Montana and into Wyoming. Must be nice to have an elk tag good in any state at any time of the year.

https://trib.com/news/state-and-regi...a0d59594f.html
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Old 05-21-2019, 7:49 AM
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Originally Posted by CHAD PEZZLE View Post
According to this article he chased them right out of Montana and into Wyoming. Must be nice to have an elk tag good in any state at any time of the year.

https://trib.com/news/state-and-regi...a0d59594f.html
Not even a tag. The treaty doesnít say crap about tags or licenses. Only that they are allowed to hunt any unoccupied land as long as it carries game. I guess you could go back a ways and see what the Crow traditionally considered to be game but it sounds like carte blanche to kill any animal almost anywhere they may be found.
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Old 05-21-2019, 7:54 AM
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Originally Posted by CABilly View Post
Not even a tag. The treaty doesnít say crap about tags or licenses. Only that they are allowed to hunt any unoccupied land as long as it carries game. I guess you could go back a ways and see what the Crow traditionally considered to be game but it sounds like carte blanche to kill any animal almost anywhere they may be found.
Sorry should have said "tag"

I realize it's not actual tag at all, they've been given the proverbial "golden ticket" to hunt whenever and wherever they want. Not exactly a wise decision for game management.

This decision could have a huge negative affect on game management where ever these treaties and tribal lands exist.
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Old 05-21-2019, 7:55 AM
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There's an analog for this kind of thing in Wisconsin.

The northern Wisconsin tribes are free to spear walleye under floodlights during the spring spawning season - they've been known to throw walleye in piles and make fertilizer out of the carcasses. The tribes do not have to self-regulate their harvest, but have at least agreed to declare target spearing levels.

From the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel:
Quote:
The six bands of Chippewa tribes in northern Wisconsin have declared intentions to spear 61,723 walleyes in 2017, a 6% increase from last year and third highest since they began exercising their off-reservation treaty rights in the 1980s, according to the Great Lakes Indian Fish and Wildlife Commission.

The harvest declarations are spread across 472 lakes and five lake chains in the ceded territory, essentially the northern one-third of Wisconsin.

The 1983 Voigt case affirmed the right of the Chippewa tribes to hunt, fish and gather in the ceded territory. Since the late 1980s, the tribes have exercised their right to take walleyes and other fish by spearing and, to a lesser extent, netting.
Quote:
The reasons for declines in walleye populations in northern lakes aren't completely understood and are the subject of many studies. Historically, though, over-harvest has plagued the popular fish. It is likely contributing to walleye shortages now, too.

Heated protests by spearing opponents haven't occurred in many years.

However, as walleye populations dwindle in many northern lakes, high tribal declarations and harvests will only increase acrimony.

The tribes long ago proved they can exercise their rights in the ceded territory.

When it comes to walleye harvests in troubled waters, now is the time for all fishermen -- sport and tribal alike -- to exercise restraint.

The future of the fishery demands it.
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Old 05-21-2019, 8:15 AM
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The Chippewa can also hunt deer at night in Wisconsin using modern weapons.

http://www.startribune.com/chippewa-...sin/333139331/
Quote:
In a decision that could significantly affect Wisconsin deer hunting — where last year more than 16,000 Minnesotans chased whitetails — a federal court this week ruled that Chippewa Indians in northern Wisconsin can hunt deer at night with high-powered rifles.
...
No limit will be placed on the number of deer a Chippewa hunter may kill, said Colette Routel, a William Mitchell College of Law professor and lead attorney for the six Wisconsin Chippewa bands that sought the nighttime hunt.

Hunting at night with torches is a Chippewa tradition dating to pre-settlement, Routel said.

The six bands are signatories to an 1837 treaty that ceded a large section of northern Wisconsin and all or portions of 12 east-central Minnesota counties to the federal government.
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Old 05-21-2019, 9:40 AM
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This is just modern poaching.
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Old 05-21-2019, 10:27 AM
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I believe this guy is a warden for the Crow tribe too.
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Old 05-21-2019, 10:36 AM
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Filed under: Reparations
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Old 05-21-2019, 10:44 AM
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i have to agree with gorsuch. i don't think treaties should be automatically voided just because of statehood.
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Old 05-21-2019, 11:35 AM
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I agree that treaties need to be honored or renegotiated.

But this is tricky because so much has gone into restoration and conservation and it only works because (most) everyone has agreed to play by the rules. Now a whole class of people have been elevated beyond almost all of those rules.
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Old 05-21-2019, 2:24 PM
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I’m a member of the Fugawee tribe. We are known for asking “where the Fugawee” A2
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Old 05-22-2019, 12:55 AM
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Strange case. The justices decided 5-4 that the Crow does continue to have hunting rights in the forest (Wyoming Bighorn National Forest), but little else. They're sending the case back to lower courts to determine the ultimate fine, and if other procedures need to be negotiated for conservation.

According to the ruling, Crow members can't hunt wherever. But do have hunting rights in 30 million acres of present-day Montana and Wyoming (from the area of land they had at the time of the treaty) if it's unoccupied and game is found thereon and peace subsists . . . on the borders of the hunting districts (the Crow were considered very hostile back in the day, Battle of Little Bighorn was in a Crow reservation area).
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Old 05-22-2019, 6:56 AM
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I agree that treaties need to be honored, to some extent. In Washington, tribes are allowed to gillnet federally endangered runs of Steelhead and Salmon which should not be allowed. But at the end of the day, we f'd over the tribes so let them have something. Maybe it'll help them drink less booze if they are out hiking around hunting.
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Old 05-22-2019, 6:58 AM
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Does this mean that "Pocahontas" (Leslie Warren) can poach, too?
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Old 05-22-2019, 7:14 AM
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I agree that treaties need to be honored, to some extent. In Washington, tribes are allowed to gillnet federally endangered runs of Steelhead and Salmon which should not be allowed. But at the end of the day, we f'd over the tribes so let them have something. Maybe it'll help them drink less booze if they are out hiking around hunting.
When I lived up in Washington, the first time I went Salmon fishing (I think it was on the Quilcene river) there were about 50 to 60 fisherman standing elbow to elbow on a 150' section of river. Just about every cast you would foul hook a salmon. The wardens were standing on a hill behind that section of the river watching. If anyone removed a fouled salmom from the river they were ticketed immediatley. After about an hour of very frustrating fishing, an old Toyota backed up to the bank. Forcing about 5 fisherman to move out of the way. Four local tribe members hopped out, put on waders and grabbed thier nets. They started netting salmon by the handful and tossing them into the back of this old Toyota. After about 30 minutes this truck was ridin on it axles and they took off. I remeber standing there in shock!!! I just grabbed my gear and went home. Never went back after that.
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Old 05-22-2019, 8:02 AM
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If they ate them, it does not bother me.
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Old 05-22-2019, 8:04 AM
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Originally Posted by CABilly View Post
I agree that treaties need to be honored or renegotiated.

But this is tricky because so much has gone into restoration and conservation and it only works because (most) everyone has agreed to play by the rules. Now a whole class of people have been elevated beyond almost all of those rules.
Let's see how many Crow hunt differently as a result. If they are eating it, it does not bother me. Hunting beats drinking.
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Old 05-22-2019, 8:15 AM
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If they ate them, it does not bother me.
In Washington, they typically smoke them and sell them for $20/lb on the side of the road. Someone does eat them.... Just not the ones netting them.
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Old 05-22-2019, 8:35 AM
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Originally Posted by 3S16 View Post
Does this mean that "Pocahontas" (Leslie Warren) can poach, too?
lol, the actress?

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Old 05-22-2019, 11:42 AM
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If you focus on the big picture rather than just hunting and fishing regulations, I'm pretty sure we'd all agree that the U.S. government got the better end of the deal.

Indians are left with hunting and fishing rights. U.S. government gets everything else.

You can re-negotiate the treaties, but what are you going to offer the Indians? I'm sure they'll be happy to take back Yellowstone or even just the area around Jackson Hole.

They're a bit too sophisticated these days to give up treaty rights for $24 worth of beads.

As others have said, a deal's a deal.
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Old 05-30-2019, 3:38 PM
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Anyone listen to Lars Larson today?
Had a guy on about this ruling. Seems the elk were being followed buy the hunter(s) on the res, but made it off before they were shot. So they were shot on National forest land, not the res. The guy also mentioned that the treaty also states that all Crow will for now and ever more live on the res. So are any Crow off the res going to be forced back? A deal is a Deal.
Look, the Indians got screwed. But does this ruling have the potential to say "Hey I'm an Indian. I can kill what I want, where I want and as much as I want"?

Just asking
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Old 05-30-2019, 4:55 PM
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I mean I have a verifiable 1/8 of sioux in me, but I don't exactly believe myself as an Indian..
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Old 05-31-2019, 6:49 PM
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Filed under: Reparations
yep, watched a guy on POW island AK, snagging salmon 100 yards upstream from the freshwater sign / marker "no snagging beyond this point". Him and his son filled up dozens of buckets. ....he got his reparations that day. Wasn't like the game warden wasn't around either, they had undercover officers up there walking the river bank.
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Old 05-31-2019, 6:50 PM
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I mean I have a verifiable 1/8 of sioux in me, but I don't exactly believe myself as an Indian..
that's more than enough to get a good job at harvard.
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