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  #1  
Old 04-01-2019, 2:50 PM
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Default Don't use large-cap mags in mag-locked guns

Setting aside the effects of the Benitez ruling, it's important to realize some things have NOT changed.

Can I use LCMs in my 'featureless' centerfire semiautomatic rifles??


Yes.



Can I use LCMs in my RAW -Registered Assault Weapon(s)?


Yes.

IF YOU REGISTERED, the registered guns do NOT have a 'fixed magazine'. If you registered a 'bullet-buttoned' gun, under the new law that is NOT a 'fixed magazine' gun.



Can I use LCMs in my gun that has a new magazine locking device (open action to release mag)?

No.

32310 (the narrow subject of Judge Benitez's ruling in Duncan) is about just crimes with magazines; the definition of large-capacity magazine is independent of 32310.

'Assault weapon' law is a different piece - in this case: PC 30515 -- And 30515 does not even use the term 'large capacity magazine' - it says "a fixed magazine with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds."
Quote:
30515.

(a) Notwithstanding Section 30510, “assault weapon” also means any of the following:
...
(2) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has a fixed magazine with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.
Your new mag locking device creates a 'fixed magazine' - you probably did that to avoid registering.

Using a LCM in a fixed magazine device creates an 'assault weapon'. That's a felony. Do not do that.
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There is no value at all complaining or analyzing or reading tea leaves to decide what these bills really mean or actually do; any bill with a chance to pass will be bad for gun owners.

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Last edited by Librarian; 04-01-2019 at 2:58 PM..
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  #2  
Old 04-01-2019, 2:59 PM
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Seems to me that this could fall with the Benetiz ruling.
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Old 04-01-2019, 3:04 PM
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Should sticky this and a redirect note at the top of the forums so people don't get confused.

It's great that you put the language in layman's terms as well.
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Old 04-01-2019, 3:05 PM
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How many times do we have to tell these twits. Many posts with this info. Lotsa nummies out there. 10 plus round mag in fixed mag semi auto = Assault Weapon. Also same for ar and ak pistols.
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Old 04-01-2019, 3:40 PM
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RAW pistols are ok right?
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  #6  
Old 04-01-2019, 3:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frankm View Post
Seems to me that this could fall with the Benetiz ruling.
Me thinks for now, Librarian is correct but that if the Benitez ruling holds, that would be grounds for going after PC 30515. So, your point is well taken.

In the meantime, can someone simply convert a fixed mag AR to a full featureless and be good to go? Seems doing that is well within the law.
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Old 04-01-2019, 3:53 PM
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Originally Posted by sonofeugene View Post
Me thinks for now, Librarian is correct but that if the Benitez ruling holds, that would be grounds for going after PC 30515. So, your point is well taken.

In the meantime, can someone simply convert a fixed mag AR to a full featureless and be good to go? Seems doing that is well within the law.
From my understanding, you can. Fix mag ar to featurelss. Im not a lawyer
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Old 04-01-2019, 3:58 PM
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....not for RAW pistols though, right? RAW pistols can take > 10 round mags right?
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Old 04-01-2019, 3:59 PM
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I have the same question too.....
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Old 04-01-2019, 4:00 PM
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Originally Posted by ambis View Post
....not for RAW pistols though, right? RAW pistols can take > 10 round mags right?
Dude... it's a RAW, you can put whatever you want into it.
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  #11  
Old 04-01-2019, 4:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frankm View Post
Seems to me that this could fall with the Benetiz ruling.
If things were rational in CA, much of the reasoning in Duncan should apply to a new suit against many of CA’s gun laws — but such suits must be filed specifically against the laws, there is no ‘penumbra’ of Duncan that sweeps up other parts of Penal Code.
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There is no value at all complaining or analyzing or reading tea leaves to decide what these bills really mean or actually do; any bill with a chance to pass will be bad for gun owners.

The details only count after the Governor signs the bills.


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Old 04-01-2019, 4:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nicky c View Post
Dude... it's a RAW, you can put whatever you want into it.
Well, except for a standard mag release...
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  #13  
Old 04-01-2019, 4:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowdrop View Post
Well, except for a standard mag release...
Well, okay anything except that.

For now...
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  #14  
Old 04-01-2019, 6:26 PM
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This is so painful.....thx for the clarification on BS Law......ugh
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  #15  
Old 04-01-2019, 7:50 PM
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Last edited by foothillman; 07-14-2019 at 11:10 AM..
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  #16  
Old 04-01-2019, 8:24 PM
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Default rim fire??

any opinion on over 10 mag in a 10/22
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Old 04-01-2019, 8:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
Can I use LCMs in my RAW -Registered Assault Weapon(s)?


Yes.

IF YOU REGISTERED, the registered guns do NOT have a 'fixed magazine'. If you registered a 'bullet-buttoned' gun, under the new law that is NOT a 'fixed magazine' gun.
I remember people being not sure what the new law meant in that regard.

So; if it is a registered raw does the bullet button need to stay on?

and/or to double check; larger than 10 round magazine is ok on them?

The flowchart makes a rotating magazine also seem ok on a raw. ?

Thanks

Last edited by sl0re10; 04-01-2019 at 8:47 PM..
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  #18  
Old 04-01-2019, 8:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foothillman View Post
This is how I see the "assault weapons' law
I have no idea how CA. defines a bottle rocket.
You forgot the part where lawyers make up a term for something that has a completely different plain English meaning, then expect you to follow their orders as to how you speak English.
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  #19  
Old 04-01-2019, 9:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sl0re10 View Post
I remember people being not sure what the new law meant in that regard.

So; if it is a registered raw does the bullet button need to stay on?

and/or to double check; larger than 10 round magazine is ok on them?

The flowchart makes a rotating magazine also seem ok on a raw. ?

Thanks
CADOJ insists that the bullet-buttons remain on if you registered the gun with a BB. I don't understand why.

But as noted, a BB no longer qualifies to make a rifle 'fixed mag', so can't create an 'assault weapon' by using a 11+ mag in such a registered gun.

What kind of rotating mag exists for a centerfire semi-auto? I don't think of a drum as a 'rotating mag'. IIRC, rotating cylinders are mentioned in the context of shotguns.
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I've been saying that for years ...

There is no value at all complaining or analyzing or reading tea leaves to decide what these bills really mean or actually do; any bill with a chance to pass will be bad for gun owners.

The details only count after the Governor signs the bills.


Gregg Easterbrook’s “Law of Doomsaying”: Predict catastrophe no later than ten years hence but no sooner than five years away — soon enough to terrify people but distant enough that they will not remember that you were wrong.


Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs.


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  #20  
Old 04-01-2019, 9:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
CADOJ insists that the bullet-buttons remain on if you registered the gun with a BB. I don't understand why.
Spite?
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  #21  
Old 04-01-2019, 9:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
CADOJ insists that the bullet-buttons remain on if you registered the gun with a BB. I don't understand why.
Oh we all know why. But ask people like FGG, and they'll insist there is some sort of magical legal logic that makes it all sensible. You know, stuff the average non-lawyer could never comprehend.
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Old 04-01-2019, 9:44 PM
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Originally Posted by frankm View Post
Seems to me that this could fall with the Benetiz ruling.
No. No. No. Not on this ruling. A subsequent case/ruling, maybe.
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Old 04-01-2019, 9:45 PM
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Originally Posted by sonofeugene View Post
In the meantime, can someone simply convert a fixed mag AR to a full featureless and be good to go? Seems doing that is well within the law.
Yes.
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Old 04-01-2019, 9:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Shadowdrop View Post
Well, except for a standard mag release...
Why not? What would they charge you with? The only available charge is PC 30605, possession of an unregistered assault weapon. It is a registered assault weapon.
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Old 04-01-2019, 9:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
CADOJ insists that the bullet-buttons remain on if you registered the gun with a BB. I don't understand why.

But as noted, a BB no longer qualifies to make a rifle 'fixed mag', so can't create an 'assault weapon' by using a 11+ mag in such a registered gun.

What kind of rotating mag exists for a centerfire semi-auto? I don't think of a drum as a 'rotating mag'. IIRC, rotating cylinders are mentioned in the context of shotguns.
A prosecutor lost on that exact issue in which the DOJ head expert Special Agent Supervisor and I both testified as experts (NOT binding; it was just a single criminal prosecution against an individual). As a result of that, DAs in two other cases in which I was involved either dumped AW charges and/or substantially modified the offers (messy other cases with more than just AW charges). Remember that these cases are not binding or even persuasive in other cases necessarily. However, the DOJ can insist all they want, the PC does NOT support their position that bullet buttons must remain on registered assault weapons. The only available charge is PC 30605, possession of an unreg'ed assault weapon. Registration pursuant to PC 30900 means it is not unregistered. DOJ has no authority to regulate possession or manner of possession after registration. They only had authority to regulate the registration wherein they could arguably demand BBs for registration.

This is not legal advice. There is risk to virtually anything involving firearms in CA. You can manage your own risk and decide what to do. I, myself, am comfortable stating here on a public forum that I have twenty registered assault weapons, one of which dates back to 1999, the remaining 19 were from the latest reg period. None of my registered assault weapons have any magazine locking devices installed including bullet buttons at this time though they were, of course, lawfully possessed as non-AWs before 1/1/17 and had BBs (with respect to the recent 19 firearms) when submitted for registration and until registration was confirmed.
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Old 04-01-2019, 9:51 PM
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The DOJ lost on that exact issue (NOT binding) in a case in which I testified as an expert. As a result of that, DAs in two other cases either dumped AW charges and/or substantially modified the offers (messy other cases with more than just AW charges). The DOJ can insist all they want, the PC does NOT support their position that bullet buttons must remain on registered assault weapons. The only available charge is PC 30605, possession of an unreg'ed assault weapon. Registration pursuant to PC 30900 means it is not unregistered. DOJ has no authority to regulate possession or manner of possession after registration. They only had authority to regulate the registration.
Any chance you can post a link to that case? That is exactly what I have been saying forever (bold). FGG in particular would sneer at you for even suggesting it.
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Old 04-01-2019, 9:59 PM
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Any chance you can post a link to that case? That is exactly what I have been saying forever (bold). FGG in particular would sneer at you for even suggesting it.
There is no "link" (it isn't a published case or even an unpublished case; there is no record of appeal, only a holding from a trial court judge finding that the jury should receive a jury instruction which stated that if they found he lawfully possessed it with a BB prior to 1/1/17, that they should find him not guilty even though it had a standard magazine release at the time of seizure in 2017. I also can't reveal client information anyway. But remember that this case is not binding. It was just an individual prosecution of a dude who was arrested for several items including AWs.

NOTE that I edited the post you quoted for clarity and to be more precise (the DOJ was not a party to the prosecution; only an expert witness)
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Old 04-01-2019, 10:02 PM
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Originally Posted by ohsmily View Post
There is no "link" (it isn't a published case or even an unpublished case; there is no record of appeal, only a holding from a trial court judge finding that the jury should receive a jury instruction which stated that if they found he lawfully possessed it with a BB prior to 1/1/17, that they should find him not guilty even though it had a standard magazine release at the time of seizure in 2017. I also can't reveal client information anyway. But remember that this case is not binding. It was just an individual prosecution of a dude who was arrested for several items including AWs.

NOTE that I edited the post you quoted for clarity and to be more precise (the DOJ was not a party to the prosecution; only an expert witness)
Thank you. Even though the case is neither binding nor published it confirms my suspicions. Yes, for the record, I know there is still significant risk in defying the DoJ's self-published underground regulations, and I will continue to warn others that that is the case.
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Old 04-01-2019, 11:29 PM
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What kind of rotating mag exists for a centerfire semi-auto? I don't think of a drum as a 'rotating mag'. IIRC, rotating cylinders are mentioned in the context of shotguns.
I have a raw shotgun. So; is a shotgun drum a rotating cylinder?

Thanks
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Old 04-02-2019, 12:33 AM
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Originally Posted by sl0re10 View Post
I have a raw shotgun. So; is a shotgun drum a rotating cylinder?
Depends on the shotgun.

A cylinder has chambers that rotate around an axis so that each chamber can be discharged through a common barrel.

The Armsel/Striker is a shotgun that utilizes a cylinder.
The Pancor Jackhammer was a shotgun that utilized a detachable cylinder.
The Crye Precision Six12 is a shotgun that utilizes a detachable cylinder.
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Old 04-02-2019, 8:51 AM
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Thanks for the clarification. Hopefully the ruling stands the test of time.
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Old 04-02-2019, 10:25 AM
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A friend has the vepr 12 , if he puts a fin on it can he use a 25drum?
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Old 04-02-2019, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
What kind of rotating mag exists for a centerfire semi-auto? I don't think of a drum as a 'rotating mag'. IIRC, rotating cylinders are mentioned in the context of shotguns.
Ah, the ol' Mateba Autorevolver or the Webley-Fosbery (both recoil-operated semi-autos).





Thanks for the OP Librarian. Lotsa people buying AR mags like crazy right now.

My focus over the weekend was getting my various pistols outfitted with factory-cap mags.
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Old 04-02-2019, 1:52 PM
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A friend has the vepr 12 , if he puts a fin on it can he use a 25drum?
No. Fail. Please read pc 30515 pertaining to shotguns.
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Old 04-02-2019, 2:50 PM
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Depends on the shotgun.

A cylinder has chambers that rotate around an axis so that each chamber can be discharged through a common barrel.

The Armsel/Striker is a shotgun that utilizes a cylinder.
The Pancor Jackhammer was a shotgun that utilized a detachable cylinder.
The Crye Precision Six12 is a shotgun that utilizes a detachable cylinder.
thanks. No; just a drum magazine in my case.
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Old 04-02-2019, 3:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
CADOJ insists that the bullet-buttons remain on if you registered the gun with a BB. I don't understand why.

But as noted, a BB no longer qualifies to make a rifle 'fixed mag', so can't create an 'assault weapon' by using a 11+ mag in such a registered gun.

What kind of rotating mag exists for a centerfire semi-auto? I don't think of a drum as a 'rotating mag'. IIRC, rotating cylinders are mentioned in the context of shotguns.
Well, I designed one after this challenge came up the first time. Imagine a cross between a Hyvo chain and a full moon clip. Rotary bolt motion is available to advance the Hyvo. No limit on chain size. Not a belt, not a drum, not a clip, not a magazine, not links. Rework an AR-pattern lower so it can accept a variety of feeding mechanisms, one being the standard mag well. Another being the Hyvo.

It all works. This does not comprise a patent disclosure. All rights reserved.
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Old 04-02-2019, 5:31 PM
sl0re10 sl0re10 is offline
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A friend has the vepr 12 , if he puts a fin on it can he use a 25drum?
Sounds like people are saying if it is a registered AW yes... I have not reread everything recently so I don't have an opinion / know personally.

but if it is not registered; you may want to check if it legal to own at all. I only registered mine because I couldn't see a configuration path to avoid registering it.
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  #38  
Old 04-02-2019, 9:47 PM
ohsmily ohsmily is offline
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Originally Posted by sl0re10 View Post
Sounds like people are saying if it is a registered AW yes... I have not reread everything recently so I don't have an opinion / know personally.

but if it is not registered; you may want to check if it legal to own at all. I only registered mine because I couldn't see a configuration path to avoid registering it.
If it is a RAW, it doesn't need a fin(grip) and you can use any high cap in the shotgun. If it is not a RAW, then a fin(grip) makes no difference and is a no go, drum mag or not.
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  #39  
Old 04-02-2019, 11:03 PM
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Quiet Quiet is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oc plumber View Post
A friend has the vepr 12 , if he puts a fin on it can he use a 25drum?
No. Fail. Please read pc 30515 pertaining to shotguns.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ohsmily View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by sl0re10 View Post
Sounds like people are saying if it is a registered AW yes... I have not reread everything recently so I don't have an opinion / know personally.

but if it is not registered; you may want to check if it legal to own at all. I only registered mine because I couldn't see a configuration path to avoid registering it.
If it is a RAW, it doesn't need a fin(grip) and you can use any high cap in the shotgun. If it is not a RAW, then a fin(grip) makes no difference and is a no go, drum mag or not.
CA assault weapons laws for shotguns are similar but different than those for rifles and pistols.
What may be CA legal for rifles or pistols, may not be CA legal for shotguns.
Example... grip fins do nothing to change the legality of a shotgun.


Therefore... (only CA laws are being considered, not touching on Fed 922r requirements on the capacity limit on imported shotguns)

If the VEPR-12 is semi-auto and has detachable magazines, then it's an illegal assault weapon. [PC 30515(a)(7)]
^Not having a fixed magazine is a restricted feature on semi-auto shotguns, regardless of how the shotgun is configured.

If the VEPR-12 is semi-auto and was registered as an assault weapon, then it can legally use detachable magazines of any capacity.

If the VEPR-12 is semi-auto and has a fixed magazine, then there is no capacity limit for the fixed magazine.
^In order to be considered a "fixed magazine", the ammunition feeding device needs to be contained in the firearm and it can not be removed without disassembling the firearm's action or it is permanently attached in the firearm's magazine well.

If the VEPR-12 is manually operated, then it can legally use detachable magazines of any capacity.
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Last edited by Quiet; 04-02-2019 at 11:12 PM..
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  #40  
Old 04-02-2019, 11:32 PM
EvoXRiley EvoXRiley is offline
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What about rimfire ? Standard cap magazines okay in them?
Semi auto and bolt action.
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