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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel. |
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#81
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a1c if you don't want me to "play into their hands" the a lets continue to be productive with this thread. I know a lot of other hunters who thought this "was a good idea" and think of me as a gun nut because i have some ARs and post on this board. Ratherr than a flame war it might be a better idea to give me the game plan to pass on so we don't all get screwed.
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#82
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Hitler Claimed that Polish troops mad an intrusion into Germany at a remote and obscure location. He then sent a large armored force into Poland and took it in about three days. Poland had a mutual defense treaty with France and France had one with England. Hitler made an end run through Belgum around the Maginot Line and the feces was in the fan.
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Take not lightly liberty To have it you must live it And like love, don't you see To keep it you must give it "I will talk with you no more. I will go now, and fight you." (Red Cloud) |
#83
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Because it perpetuates the idea that there are "good arms" vs "bad arms". The distinction is artificial, as is the definition of "assault weapon". Any weapon can be misused, the arm excluded as a "hunting rifle" now will be redefined as a "sniper rifle" next time. But because the hunters are a subset of the gun rights population, they will lose the fight even more quickly on the next round. And there will be a next round, because these proposed laws won't make a difference, so the reaction won't be to reverse obviously useless laws, but to make them even more draconian in the mistaken idea that they just haven't gone far enough. Take a stand and fight it out when you have all of the gun rights people united right now.
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NRA Patron Member, SAF Life Member, CGF Donor |
#84
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Someone do me a favor and provide me the short version of this that Incan share next time another hunter talks to me about it. A version that doesn't include WW-II stories, bans in foreign countries, etc. something I can explain briefly to a hunter who is upset about his rifle being banned and who want to call to demand an exemption list, because a lot of people I know are doing this.
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#85
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Let them wade through the briar patch!
Stand together, no exemptions. That is what got us the handgun roster. Exemptions are just buying out constituents so they can slice away your rights another day. |
#86
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Did anybody notice the statement Biden made about shotguns? Notice he specified "double barrel"? Notice he didn't say "pump"?
Ever wonder why?
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NRA lifetime member 2AF Defender member When did I go from being a "citizen" to a "taxpayer"? Jon Lovitz: ‘I can’t wait to go to a hospital run by the DMV!’ Peace, love, and heavy weapons. Sometimes you have to be insistent." - David Lee Roth |
#87
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I think this bill as written is the end game all by itself.
If this actually gets passed (Everyone here should actually HOPE that it does....) That is the end game. It will get an injunction, nothing goes into effect. Then it's a skyrocket up through SCOTUS which will have about no choice to clarify some things to these far overzealous politicians. This - in time- will actually set back the anti gun movement 20+ years. So... in the meantime, fight with letters, faxes, emails, tell every gun owner you know to fight as well. Join the NRA, donate to CGF and others. And nothing more. No begging to hold on to some semblence of a "Right". Let them shoot themselves in the foot. Thats the plan. It's actually a pretty good plan. |
#88
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This year, "assault style" rifles get banned, and hunters get an exemption. a few years from now hunters "sniper style" bolt action rifles get banned, rifles are restricted in power to something under a 5.56 because "nobody needs a gun that can kill in one shot through a bullet proof vest", scopes are banned because they "are not sporting" and "nobody needs to shoot a deer at 20000 yards". as for a plan Hunters can either get on board with opposing this law, or suffer under it the way the rest of us do, all an exemption list will do is delay their suffering a short while, and make the rest of us not in the least bit interested in their whining when they get their guns taken from them. The end game for these people is 0 guns in private hands, take it from the matron B**** of the gun control movement herself Diane Feinstein Quote:
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Yes, I am an electrical engineer. No, I will not fix your computer. Last edited by robcoe; 02-22-2013 at 4:19 PM.. |
#89
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__________________
NRA lifetime member 2AF Defender member When did I go from being a "citizen" to a "taxpayer"? Jon Lovitz: ‘I can’t wait to go to a hospital run by the DMV!’ Peace, love, and heavy weapons. Sometimes you have to be insistent." - David Lee Roth |
#91
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Taking the "safe handgun" roster as an example since this clearly illustrates how gun rights are chipped away: -when first passed, there was only one requirement needed for a handgun to get on the roster; IIRC, it was the drop safety test. -later on, loaded chamber indicators were added as a requirement -later on after that, magazine disconnects were added as a requirement -still later after that, microstamping was added as yet another requirement Do you see where this is going? They KNOW that cannot have an outright ban(the real goal), So once they "got the foot in the door" so to speak with the original roster requirement, they incrementally added more requirements, and more will be added until a de-facto ban is acheived. A de-facto ban has been accomplished with Gen 4 Glocks, as one example. Now, let's apply this to exempting "hunting rifles" from a ban: -when first passed, rimfires, Browning BARs(and similar), Benelli R-1s(and similar) are exempted from a ban list. (oops, Adam Lanza put 4 rounds of .22lr into his moms head) -soon after, .22s are added to the ban list (it is "discovered" that Browning BARs fire a much more powerful cartridge than a standard AR-15) -soon after, Browning BAR is added to ban list, as it is "too powerful" for civilian use -a bit after that Benelli R-1 is added for the same reason -etc... As Librarian said above, a slippery slope.
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#93
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__________________
Take not lightly liberty To have it you must live it And like love, don't you see To keep it you must give it "I will talk with you no more. I will go now, and fight you." (Red Cloud) |
#94
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NorCalDustin posted a version of this already, but it needs to be re-posted since the OP asked to be educated after it was posted, I think it was overlooked.
There's a lot of versions of this, I grabbed the first one I found: First they came for the "assault" rifles, and I didn't speak out because I didn't own any "assault" rifles. Then they came for the military pattern "semi automatic" rifles and pistols, and I didn't speak out because I didn't own any military pattern "semi automatic" rifles or pistols. Then they came for the "magazine fed" manually operated rifles and shot guns, and I didn't speak out because I didn't own any "magazine fed" manually operated rifles or shot guns. Then they came for the "single shot" rifles, shot guns and revolvers, and I didn't speak out because I didn't own any "single shot" rifles, shot guns or revolvers. Then they came for the last lowly .22 caliber rimfire rifles and revolvers, and I didn't speak out because I didn't own any lowly .22 caliber rimfire rifles or revolvers . Then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak for me. Why do you think EVERY politician says 'we respect' followed by the 2nd amendment, hunters and sportsmen? It's because the more they can divide us, the smaller their opposition. UNITED WE STAND - DIVIDED WE FALL!
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WTB: multiautomatic ghost gun with a .30-caliber clip to disperse with 30 bullets within half a second. Must include shoulder thing that goes up. Memberships/Affiliations: CERT, ARRL ARES, NRA Patron Member, HRC, CGN/CGSSA, Cal-FFL |
#95
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Disagree with underlined. I dont want ANY LAW ABIDING gun owner to lose ANY MORE RIGHTS. We all need to stand together and take back lost ground. Long hard road possibly. But as I say, this bill as written will be doing ALL OF US a huge favor in the end... |
#96
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I think the most basic concept which often is lost.....
As a Law Abiding, Legal Gun Owner... is the only way we should be viewed. Do not try to catagorize us as hunters plinkers competitors self defense whatever whatever We are all simply... Law Abiding Gun Owners. Thats it. And as such, we need to stay together as that group alone. |
#97
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I am not willing to throw anyone under the bus, I will fight for hunters, competion shooters, plinkers, self defense shooters, target shooters and collectors alike, but I won't shead a tear for any of them when they lose out after refuseing to back the rest of us in this.
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Yes, I am an electrical engineer. No, I will not fix your computer. |
#98
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+10,000 on throwing hunters under the bus. First thing that happened when I posted was not "here's why your idea isn't good" it was flames. Really inspirational... If you wanna bring hunters and competition guys into the fold be polite and explain with reason.
Last edited by Moonshine; 02-22-2013 at 4:34 PM.. |
#99
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The fact that there we term clique 'fudds' and 'mall ninjas' in the community is evidence of it. Historically, EBR guys lose out because there are a whole lot of 'hunters' and 'sportsman' who support the second amendment right to hunt bambi or clays, but don't care about any guns but the guns they use to do that. Just about every big anti gunner I've ever heard of purports to be in that camp. If you get an exemption to 'hunting' guns codified in law it takes away the incentive for the entire shooting community to get involved. As has been mentioned this was demonstrated super well with the exemptions the Cowboy Action guys got in exchange for supporting the roster. If we want to beat back legislation like this we need to present a unified front, cliquey BS needs to take a back seat. |
#100
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Moonshine, here is one logical way to slice this pie:
1) Ask your friends if they feel their rifles are protected under the second amendment. 2) Then ask them why they feel like they need an exemption for a Constitutionally enumerated right. If you wonder about the flame, it is because some have sold out the rights of others to save themselves. It is just like the Nazi collaborators who sold out Jews in order to have "privileges". Just like what you are proposing now. UNITED WE STAND, DIVIDED WE FALL. Last edited by penguin0123; 02-22-2013 at 4:40 PM.. |
#101
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At one time I said a ban on Ar or aks did not brother me. Then I thought if the ban them what is next ? Now I look at this be s#%# is they will never stop. I say if u don't like guns then don't shot them LEAVE ME alone I love to shoot and reload hell the whole family loves it wife and son what I love is the ones that try to force their opinions on us are the ones that get mad when other people force opinions on to them . This will never stop . But with out the right to bare arms how do we keep the other parts of the constitution for are self and the next generation. No mater what laws we try to make u WILL NEVER STOP EVIL NO MATER WHAT YOU DO. Just like you can't fix stupid madness will never stop it has been here since the start of time and will be part of life till the end of days
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#102
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I hunt. I also have an EBR. And a compound bow. And lots of other things the same people behind this are scared of. My father hunts, owns no EBR's, and has semiautomatic monte-carlo stock rifles that WOULD be included in this proposed bill. He's smart enough to realize NO guns should be banned because it opens the doors to ALL guns being banned. How many people here are aware blowpipes of ANY SORT are illegal in the state? Think about that long and hard. Blowpipes. A tube and a dart. If you think for one second something as benign as a blowpipe, when compared to even a .17HMR, has already been banned, you should realize the end-game oif all of this.
__________________
NRA lifetime member 2AF Defender member When did I go from being a "citizen" to a "taxpayer"? Jon Lovitz: ‘I can’t wait to go to a hospital run by the DMV!’ Peace, love, and heavy weapons. Sometimes you have to be insistent." - David Lee Roth |
#103
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I'm fairly certain this law is passing as is. Newton gave them the momentum they'll never get again and exempting anything just makes them look weak in the face of overwhelming pressure to go for broke. The only reason Feinstein even tried an exempt list was probably because she thought without it shed have an armed united front. That's my thinking anyhow, if Steinberg does add exemptions t will be because of backroom deals with moderate democrats.
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#104
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__________________
NRA lifetime member 2AF Defender member When did I go from being a "citizen" to a "taxpayer"? Jon Lovitz: ‘I can’t wait to go to a hospital run by the DMV!’ Peace, love, and heavy weapons. Sometimes you have to be insistent." - David Lee Roth |
#105
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Mr Moonshine the next time one of your hunting buddies asks you about this, ask them what are they doing to prevent this from happening. Tell them about this forum and make dam* sure that they understand that if they don't get off their duffs the only thing that they will be able to take into the woods or defend their family will be a pea shooter. Tell them to read this forum and then decide for themselves what they want to do. Ask them if they are a member of the NRA or any of the great groups in Ca. that support what we all do regardless if it is hunting, competitive shooting, just going to the range or for family defense. Tell them to just GET OFF THE ******* FENCE if they want to continue enjoying this god given right. Oh, by the way do they have children that share their interest, if so it is even more important to do so.
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#106
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Many of us have tried to help hunters with the lead bans, condor crap, etc.. etc.. I dont hunt. Just dont have an interest in it. I however FULLY SUPPORT ethical hunters who eat what they kill, or for 'pest control' purposes. I'm not a fan of trophy hunting at all, but I wont say people cant do it... I wont throw them under the bus either, but I personally dont like that 'sport' unless they actually eat it. I wrote Emails against the condor zone and lead bans on behalf of hunters. I just cant understand why hunters cant get behind the rest of us law abiding gun owners. Same with the NRA- How are there THAT MANY gun owners, and such a small number of NRA members? But my opinion, why you felt attacked, was people were having flashbacks of hunters/cowboys throwing everyone else under the bus. And that needs to stop. We all need to stand up, and stand together. |
#107
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Slippery slope doesn't even begin to describe the danger of Moonshine's proposal.
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Paul S “Cogito, ergo armatum sum: I think, therefore I am armed.” - Collection of Quotes - Lt. Col. Dave Grossman |
#108
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So are we basically screwed now? I know of at least a few people who called and said they didn't support the bill and wanted exemptions... And I'm aware of people in other counties because it was talked about among a few guys I know who aren't active on this or other boards... Will Steingberg be like "wow these guys are awesome" and amend or is amendment more of a backroom deal process?
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#110
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Sigh this round of bans Ill have 5 more guns banned. I'm tired of storing them out of state or selling so this will be my first time registering. Serious though how much impact do guys calling have if its only a handful?
On a side note re-reading some of these posts we're really putting some good ideas out there for a gun ban and we may want the mods to delete it and start a new one just focused on the issue of EBR guys, hunters, etc and why we should all stick together. Just sayin. Last edited by Moonshine; 02-22-2013 at 5:13 PM.. |
#111
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Feinstein will not even get a vote in the Senate. It's a political game that she lost when her first ban didn't work at all. Not only that bringing her bill to a vote would be politically extremely risky, but it has a much greater chance of being struck down by the courts. Just look at the number of states that preemptively passed laws that AWB will not be enforced.
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NRA Benefactor Member |
#112
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The reason you got such a harsh backlash to your original post is because what you have suggested and the 'divided gun owner' problem is something that pro-2A supporters have been dealing with for a VERY long time and anti-gunners have been focusing on exploiting for as long as I can remember.
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WTB: multiautomatic ghost gun with a .30-caliber clip to disperse with 30 bullets within half a second. Must include shoulder thing that goes up. Memberships/Affiliations: CERT, ARRL ARES, NRA Patron Member, HRC, CGN/CGSSA, Cal-FFL |
#113
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We don't want to help them, but we also don't have to worry about any specific bill since there are enough of stupid ones proposed all over the country. For example, no matter how careful CO Democrats were in trying to introduce a 15 round limit, if the NY's 7 round limit triggers a ruling that capacity limits are unconstitutional, it all goes down in flames.
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NRA Benefactor Member |
#114
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Lemme rephrase my question: was a couple phone calls asking for exemptions (a few other guys who don't own any AKs or ARs like I do said they did, he's their rep) enough to plant the seed in Steinberg's mind or is he as evil and set in his ways as Feinstein and going to ignore those calls and go all out on this thing?
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#115
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However, calling asking for an amendment with hunting specific exceptions is just going to make them think that they can further divide us. If they did make your requested exceptions, then your gun owning buddies would support it. That's bad for us pro-2A folks and will be even worse down the line when they continue to chip away at our rights.
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WTB: multiautomatic ghost gun with a .30-caliber clip to disperse with 30 bullets within half a second. Must include shoulder thing that goes up. Memberships/Affiliations: CERT, ARRL ARES, NRA Patron Member, HRC, CGN/CGSSA, Cal-FFL |
#116
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ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Quote:
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#117
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Eventually he will go all out its only a question of when. You might dodge a bullet this year only to get it next year. Be aware if your Benneli R1 ends up on an exemption list it will be added next time there is a list. by trying to save your rifle you are destroying your ability to own it.
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I'm forever blowing bubbles, Pretty bubbles in the air, They fly so high, Nearly reach the sky |
#118
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Long answer: we need to stand united and let Steinberg do what he pleases. It will have to be resolved in courts anyway, since he controls the legislators and we are protected by the Constitution.
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NRA Benefactor Member |
#119
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All I'm saying is that next time I see my buddies should I talk to them about calling Steinberg's office back and saying "we read the bill again and even with an exemption we wouldn't support it?" Or just forget about it because the calls are logged into some forgotten database to be ignored.
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#120
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From the OP:
"....encourage them to make an exemption list of 'legitimate hunting rifles'." I heard this term recently & seems to apply to the above statement: " Today's exception becomes tomorrow's 'loop hole'." |
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