CMP speculates 1911 rack grade $1000, others higher

[teetsjones]

Originally Posted by Milsurp Collector

Many of those that you call "good to very good" didn't sell or sold for what you thought were "fair" prices because they have problems. Looking through some of them there were several obvious bad rebluing jobs, some with poor condition (pitting, dents), wrong or damaged stocks (grips), etc. You can always sift through the bottom of the barrel and find lots of pistols like those. There is a reason they didn't sell, or sold for a "fair" (i.e. low) price. They have been messed with, or are in poor condition, or both.

The people who but M1911's and M1911A1's from the CMP will be the first civilians to own them.

Don't forget the CMP pistols will be and have been "messed with". They will be mix masters, and some may be refinished.

The point of the list, is to show people do not seem to be willing to pay $1000 for fair condition mix master pistols. I think the pistols I linked may be similar to the rack grades from CMP. While some I linked were decent examples that showed one can acquire a much nicer pistol for the price CMP is selling a fair condition gun.

I also suspect the better grade guns may include arsenal refinished guns. To me and some others a refinishing decreases value.

If it's a .gov gun, who cares if it was previously civilian owned or not as long as it's correct. At some point I will inerit a pristine Remington Rand 1911 with original holster, belt, 2 mags and mag pouch. I sincerely doubt that me being the third owner of this fine 1911 will decrease it's value what so ever, nor would it increase it's value if I were it's first owner. That alone does not make a fair condition mix master into a $1000 collector piece.

At best someone could claim, if only a piece of this gun could talk, the stories it could tell. There is little to no Provence to these pistols, other than they were made from a collection of parts from U.S. Property guns at one time.

It strikes me that people are willing to ignore the imperfections of the CMP pistols, while criticizing pistols already on the market for the same imperfections. Such as pitting, dents, patina and possibly wrong grips.

[SmokeTheClay]

Is this legal to even buy in California? Seems like it wouldn't be on the roster.

[Milsurp Collector]

Originally Posted by teetsjones

Don't forget the CMP pistols will be and have been "messed with". They will be mix masters.

Being arsenal refurbished and/or worked on by military armorers is not "messed with" in the sense of a bad rebluing by Bubba.

Originally Posted by teetsjones

The point of the list, is to show people do not seem to be willing to pay $1000 for fair condition mix master fair condition pistols. I think the pistols I linked may be similar to the rack grades from CMP. Some I linked were decent examples that showed one can acquire a much nicer pistol for the price CMP is selling a fair condition gun.

The pistols from the CMP are not going to have bad rebluing jobs and aftermarket grips. Some of the ones you called "nicer" have obvious rebluing jobs. They might look superficially "nicer" but they aren't.

Originally Posted by teetsjones

I also suspect the better grade guns may include arsenal refinished guns. To me and some others a refinishing decreases value.

Probably most or almost all of them have been arsenal refinished, and it does lower value compared to an original gun. That's why the CMP is selling them for $1000 instead of $2000+. But an arsenal refinish doesn't lower the collector value as much as Bubba's blue job.

Originally Posted by teetsjones

If it's a .gov gun, who cares if it was previously civilian owned or not as long as it's correct. That alone does not make a fair condition mix master into a $1000 collector piece.

The fact that no civilian has owned it means it is in the same configuration as when it was last in some government's service. There is no way that a Bubba had a chance to "correct" it or refinish it. That's one reason why people value getting guns directly from the CMP.

Originally Posted by teetsjones

At best someone could claim, if only a piece of this gun could talk, the stories it could tell. There is little to no Provence [sic] to these pistols, other than they were made from a collection of parts from U.S. Property guns at one time.

It strikes me that people are willing to ignore the imperfections of the CMP pistols, while criticizing pistols already on the market for the same imperfections.

Since no one has seen the CMP pistols, you can't say they have "the same imperfections." One thing you can say is that the CMP won't have a bad commercial rebluing job and aftermarket grips.

Originally Posted by SmokeTheClay

Is this legal to even buy in California? Seems like it wouldn't be on the roster.

They are all C&R, and C&R handguns are exempt from the roster.

[teetsjones]

Originally Posted by SmokeTheClay

Is this legal to even buy in California? Seems like it wouldn't be on the roster.

Yes. The pistols are C & R and have to be ran through an FFL. Which you will pay whatever transfer fee the FFL charges, DROS fees, and California State tax. Which turns that $1000 fair condition collectible into a $1,145 to $1,275 Fair condition gem, depending on the tax charged in your county and the transfer fees charged by your FFL of choice.

[teetsjones]

Originally Posted by Milsurp Collector

Being arsenal refurbished and/or worked on by military armorers is not "messed with" in the sense of a bad rebluing by Bubba.



The pistols from the CMP are not going to have bad rebluing jobs and aftermarket grips. Some of the ones you called "nicer" have obvious rebluing jobs. They might look superficially "nicer" but they aren't.



Probably most or almost all of them have been arsenal refinished, and it does lower value compared to an original gun. That's why the CMP is selling them for $1000 instead of $2000+. But an arsenal refinish doesn't lower the collector value as much as Bubba's blue job.



The fact that no civilian has owned it means it is in the same configuration as when it was last in some government's service. There is no way that a Bubba had a chance to "correct" it or refinish it. That's one reason why people value getting guns directly from the CMP.



Since no one has seen the CMP pistols, you can't say they have "the same imperfections." One thing you can say is that the CMP won't have a bad commercial rebluing job and aftermarket grips.




They are all C&R, and C&R handguns are exempt from the roster.

Have you ever read the description of Rack Grade at CMP? I imagine they will use the same grading they use for rifles. After market grips can be replaced with true surplus grips without too much expense. In effect you could buy a $600 - $700 gun put $60 correct grips on it and still be $240 under CMP's price and very likely have a Fair condition all original sans grips pistol. Don't forget many 1911s were sold as surplus in the 60's and many of those were unissued pistols with all original parts.

But if the fair condition mix masters 1911s are worth $1000 to you, buy as many as you like. But for me I'd rather spend $25 to $100 for a good to very good mix master, or $200 to $400 for a good to very good original 1911, as seen in the examples I provided. I prefer to not buy on emotion.

I am still confused why CMP sells their rifles under market value yet they seem to want to sell the 1911's over market value.

[Milsurp Collector]

Originally Posted by teetsjones

I am still confused why CMP sells their rifles under market value yet they seem to want to sell the 1911's over market value.

Your confusion is about the market value of arsenal refurbished military 1911 types. The CMP pistols aren't "over market value."

Since people want to look at comparable sales, rather than looking at auctions from years ago, or auctions with bad rebluing jobs, how about an apples to apples comparison. I searched for *1911** with either "arsenal" or "DCM". A DCM papered gun is similar to having a CMP certificate. These pistols are probably similar to what the CMP will sell.

Colt 1911 Augusta Arsenal Rework 45ACP Pistol
No sale at $900 http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=525078554

Colt 1911 with DCM shipping box. Arsenal Rework
Sold for $960 http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=523996564

WWII COLT / REMINGTON RAND 1911 1911A1 US PROPERTY
MINT ARSENAL RECONDITIONED GUN - PURCHASED 1960's!
Sold for $1469 http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=520435059

WW1 Colt 1911 45ACP ca. 1918 Arsenal Rebuild NR!
Sold for $961 http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=520431246

EX+ 1919 Colt US Army 1911 45 Arsenal Refurbish NR
Sold for $855 http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=521565107

WW1 Remington-UMC Colt 1911 45ACP DCM Papers NR!
AA Anniston Arsenal Rework w/DCM 1962 papers
Sold for $1440.16 http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=524276248

WW2 Remington Rand 1911A1 Benicia Arsenal Rework
ca. 1944 Scarce Benicia re-work 45ACP Exc! NR!
Sold for $1391 http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=524278584

ORIGINAL 1918 Colt WWI*Model of 1911 LOWERED RESERVE
Augusta Arsenal rebuild
Sold for $1426 http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=533540448

Average price for the 7 pistols that sold: $1214

As I said earlier in the thread, $1000 is fair market price - maybe even a little under market price - for arsenal refurbished military 1911 types. The fact that they will have a CMP certificate adds value over similar pistols that don't.

Originally Posted by teetsjones

But if the fair condition mix masters 1911s are worth $1000 to you, buy as many as you like. But for me I'd rather spend $25 to $100 for a good to very good mix master, or $200 to $400 for a good to very good original 1911, as seen in the examples I provided. I prefer to not buy on emotion.

So you think you can buy "a good to very good original 1911" for $1200-1400?



Is fantasy an emotion?

Please show us again your examples of "good to very good original 1911's" in the $1200 to $1400 range.

[teetsjones]

Originally Posted by Milsurp Collector

Your confusion is about the market value of arsenal refurbished military 1911 types. The CMP pistols aren't "over market value."

Since people want to look at comparable sales, rather than looking at auctions from years ago, or auctions with bad rebluing jobs, how about an apples to apples comparison. I searched for *1911** with either "arsenal" or "DCM". A DCM papered gun is similar to having a CMP certificate. These pistols are probably similar to what the CMP will sell.

Colt 1911 Augusta Arsenal Rework 45ACP Pistol
No sale at $900 http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=525078554

Colt 1911 with DCM shipping box. Arsenal Rework
Sold for $960 http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=523996564

WWII COLT / REMINGTON RAND 1911 1911A1 US PROPERTY
MINT ARSENAL RECONDITIONED GUN - PURCHASED 1960's!
Sold for $1469 http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=520435059

WW1 Colt 1911 45ACP ca. 1918 Arsenal Rebuild NR!
Sold for $961 http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=520431246

EX+ 1919 Colt US Army 1911 45 Arsenal Refurbish NR
Sold for $855 http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=521565107

WW1 Remington-UMC Colt 1911 45ACP DCM Papers NR!
AA Anniston Arsenal Rework w/DCM 1962 papers
Sold for $1440.16 http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=524276248

WW2 Remington Rand 1911A1 Benicia Arsenal Rework
ca. 1944 Scarce Benicia re-work 45ACP Exc! NR!
Sold for $1391 http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=524278584

ORIGINAL 1918 Colt WWI*Model of 1911 LOWERED RESERVE
Augusta Arsenal rebuild
Sold for $1426 http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=533540448

Average price for the 7 pistols that sold: $1214

As I said earlier in the thread, $1000 is fair market price - maybe even a little under market price - for arsenal refurbished military 1911 types. The fact that they will have a CMP certificate adds value over similar pistols that don't.
Yes for Arsenel refurbished. But, we are talking about pistols graded as Fair. You're comparing Good/plus examples selling below $1000 to selling FAIR Grade pistols for $1000, and claiming the CMP Fair grade is below market value, again you misrepresent facts. There is not a face palm big enough for that logic.


So you think you can buy "a good to very good original 1911" for $1200-1400?

Again with the dishonesty, where did I ever say that?



Is fantasy an emotion?
Hey you don't have to rationalize to me for wanting to buy Fair grade pistols at Good/plus grade prices

Please show us again your examples of "good to very good original 1911's" in the $1200 to $1400 range.
I don't need to, you just simply need to scroll up and look at your own examples

My examples were not from "years ago" at least be honest in your replies.

You proved my point for me. Many of those were good condition pistols selling at below $1000, CMP is proposing to sell Fair Condition at $1000. So simply pricing a Fair condition pistol at the same price as a Good to good plus, is pricing over market value.

You keep confusing the issue here between the FAIR condition pistols and Arsenal refinished pistols.

I refer to fair condition at $1000 as over priced and you retort $1000 is under market for Arsenal refurbished pistols. Then you provide examples of good to good plus pistol as proof the Fair pistols are not over priced at $1000 LMAO

I think you are not quite clear on the orange and apple concept.
Apples=Fair Oranges=Good

I'll repeat this again because you don't seem to get it.

CMP Fair condition pistols= $1000
Your examples of arsenal refurbished Good to Good plus ~ $1000

Your conclusion, since Arsenal refurbished Good/plus pistols are priced at ~ $1000 then CMP Fair pistols are under market value at $1000.

How is a Fair condition gun being sold at Good/plus condition prices equate to the Fair condition gun being sold under value?

Again CMP is proposing to sell Fair condition pistols at Good/plus prices. Proven by your examples.

Would you pay new york strip prices for chuck steak, if it were sold by CMP?

[Milsurp Collector]

Originally Posted by teetsjones

My examples were not from "years ago" at least be honest in your replies.

I was referring to the other poster http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...&postcount=198 who listed old auctions.

Originally Posted by teetsjones

Again with the dishonesty, where did I ever say that?

I quoted you directly above my comment, even bolded it. Here it is again:

Originally Posted by teetsjones

But if the fair condition mix masters 1911s are worth $1000 to you, buy as many as you like. But for me I'd rather spend $25 to $100 for a good to very good mix master, or $200 to $400 for a good to very good original 1911, as seen in the examples I provided. I prefer to not buy on emotion.

I gave you the benefit of the doubt and assumed you meant to say you would rather pay $200 to $400 above $1000 for "a good to very good original 1911". If you actually meant you want to buy "a good to very good original 1911" for $200 to $400, that's even funnier.

Originally Posted by teetsjones

I don't need to, you just simply need to scroll up and look at your own examples

No, you said you could buy "a good to very good original 1911" for $1200 to $1400 (or $200 to $400 is what you said verbatim). My examples are all arsenal refurbished. And your examples you posted earlier were either not original, or not "good to very good".

Originally Posted by teetsjones

You proved my point for me. Many of those were good condition pistols selling at below $1000, CMP is proposing to sell Fair Condition at $1000. So simply pricing a Fair condition pistol at the same price as a Good to good plus, is pricing over market value.

You are cherry picking the lowest priced ones. What was the average price of all of the listed sales? $1214

Originally Posted by teetsjones

You keep confusing the issue here between the FAIR condition pistols and Arsenal refinished pistols.

I refer to fair condition at $1000 as over priced and you retort $1000 is under market for Arsenal refurbished pistols. Then you provide examples of good to good plus pistol as proof the Fair pistols are not over priced at $1000

I think you are not quite clear on the orange and apple concept.
Apples=Fair Oranges=Good

I'll repeat this again because you don't seem to get it.

CMP Fair condition pistols= $1000
Your examples of arsenal refurbished Good to Good plus ~ $1000

Your conclusion, since Arsenal refurbished Good/plus pistols are priced at ~ $1000 then CMP Fair pistols are under market value at $1000.

How is a Fair condition gun being sold at Good/plus condition prices equate to the Fair condition gun being sold under value?

Again CMP is proposing to sell Fair condition pistols at Good/plus prices. Proven by your examples.

You are the one that is confused and don't seem to get it, or are at least making assumptions. Several of your examples of "nicer" pistols had terrible reblue jobs. And you keep saying the CMP pistols are in "fair" condition when you haven't even seen them. The CMP doesn't even know their condition, so how do you know they are in "fair" condition?

Johnson said:

They have no idea on the condition of the pistols in inventory. But, based on their experience with M1 Garand the CMP expects there will be Rack Grade, Field Grade, Service Grade, and Collector Grade pistols available and that he expects 10% to be in the worst condition, 10% to be in the best condition, and the rest somewhere in the middle. (He later added that the CMP will thoroughly inspect, repair, and test fire all pistols prior to sale).
- See more at: http://www.alloutdoor.com/2016/01/19....y59ZhzFP.dpuf

The CMP pistols are most likely arsenal refurbished, I think we agree on that. I listed several auctions (all I could find) of arsenal refurbished military pistols that sold for an average of $1214. Your examples are of pistols with bad reblue jobs, pitting, wrong grips, etc. - many of which didn't even sell - and you use that as evidence that you can get "nicer" pistols than the ones the CMP will be selling, that you haven't even seen but keep saying are in "fair" condition.

[The Gleam]

Originally Posted by teetsjones

Here is a larger and much more current list of recent sales. Sales from 2, 7, 10, or 11 years ago are hardly an indication of the current value of an item.

Of course - the value NOW would be higher.

Originally Posted by teetsjones

One can buy a good to very good for a little over $1,000. There are several that did not meet reserve, but the high bid indicates what people think the gun is worth.

First, you are posting a lot of guns that are not comparable. Also, you are not posting the actual HIGHEST or even WINNING bid, but instead you are indicating the low starting bid as the price in your list - you don't know how Gunbroker works do you?

Such as:

Originally Posted by teetsjones

Fair top bid $550
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=525449822

Top bid fair condition $575
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=524727138

You are posting the required starting bid prices on reserve-auctions of what did not end as the known price; such as, the very 2nd and 3rd auctions above you listed - went several times without a sale, and high bids were well above $1500. Keep clicking on each time is shows "Click here to view the new listing".


So on the 2nd one you posted, this auction went to $1,950.00 - NOT $550 as you stated as the "high bid" - whereby the Buy Now! Price was $1,995.00 - so the seller merely has set his reserve price as his buy-it-now price - but you are playing a shell-game by showing it's price as $550.

Be honest:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=535167741

And the third one that you say only went to $575 was even stated as an older re-blue, and sold at $1,599.99 - link below - where anyone can tell from the photos that was a refinished gun:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=533921516


I would rather have a rack-grade untouched, then a Bubba refinish.

I intentionally did NOT include guns that did not end in a sale. I included auctions going back up to ten years, because inevitably, values go UP not DOWN, and if something in rough condition sold for $1,000 a decade ago, there is no doubt it will sell for more now.

Originally Posted by teetsjones

Since most good to very good condition guns sold between $800 to $1200. Very good to excellent went for $855 to $1400.

The mean on each of your figures being $1,000 aside for incorrect reporting of the final price or incomparable guns, which merely proves $1,000 is fair market value on the CMP rakc-grade, many of those are "refurbished" or refinished - not comparable to a CMP gun that has never been released to the public before. And your condition or grade is all over the place. Have you ever even seen a "rack grade" 1911 from CMP before?

Originally Posted by teetsjones

Fair condition had bids or sold between $500 to $800, I think it's fair to say $1000 is a bit too high for the rack grade (fair condition) CMP 1911s.

No - again, you are neither reporting the actual final sale prices on most all of the links examples you showed, and you are saying "fair" condition in comparison to refinished, or redone by Bubba, or obviously guns with flaws and refinished that can be seen in the photos - and you are posting prices based on the starting bid price.

You are also including a lot of Remington Rands. Everyone knows the Remington Rands are the lowest valued of all the USGI guns, and they can often be found in great condition. Many, many were made. Even excellent condition Rands typically only go for $1,000 to $1,500 - so should be excluded. Yes, a rack-grade Rand won't be worth much more than $500, nor would I be interested in one at that price either. :Shrug:

Originally Posted by mosinnagantm9130

Thank you, you did my work for me.

Auction prices from 2005 are not current market rates.

NO - auction prices from 2005 are EVEN LOWER - WHICH IS WHY I INCLUDED THEM.

And I ONLY showed actual final-end sales, not some trumped up reserve-auctions with a low starting bid, where the posts teetsjones showed only the opening bid required on a reserve-auction as the final price.

He's got a few that are close to what can be expected, but those are showing prices ranging from $850 to $1,200 - AS SOLD - and simply supports the foundation for a $1,000 price for the CMP rack-grade 1911 as accurate.

Regardless, if you are so misinformed that you wouldn't know a CMP rack grade from a Bubba'ed redo, nor would you have any interest in the first place, quit moaning and whining about the $1,000 asking price and simply stay clear the day they open these up for sale.

Fair enough?

Thank you. I would appreciate the favor.

[Killer Bee]

these are all less than 90 days old..

and I suspect some of this variety might turn up from storage

Originally Posted by Killer Bee

any of y'all doubting the potential value of one of these just isn't paying attention..

either way, less bidders leaves me a better chance of landing one I want

gunbroker only keeps auction ads for 90 days, but a few years ago a correct Navy verified USS Texas shipment went for $15k

here's just a few from my recent watch list;

US MARINE ! RARE 1911 Colt - 1913 sold $4800

Colt M1911A1 US Army Marked NAVY Mfg 1939 RARE NR sold $4775

Colt 1911 US Navy MFG 1913 45 ACP WWI Orig Blue NR sold $4312

1942 COLT 1911 A1 1911A1 ARMY COLONELS PROVENANCE sold $4355

mixmasters and even incomplete guns with at least one rare part fetch $1k+ frequently..

Colt 1911 US Navy frame & receiver USS NY 1913 sold $1350

[teetsjones]

Originally Posted by Milsurp Collector

I was referring to the other poster http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...&postcount=198 who listed old auctions.
Yet you ascribed that to me, until i called you out on it. I pointed out to that poster the same thing so I don't know why you felt the need to point it out to me. But I think we both know why, it was your attempt to discredit me, by alluding I was posting old examples. Seems you have a difficult time with honest discussions.



You are cherry picking the lowest priced ones. What was the average price of all of the listed sales? $1214
Sure I did, to prove you can get a better pistol for less money than what CMP wants to charge.



You are the one that is confused and don't seem to get it, or are at least making assumptions. Several of your examples of "nicer" pistols had terrible reblue jobs. And you keep saying the CMP pistols are in "fair" condition when you haven't even seen them. The CMP doesn't even know their condition, so how do you know they are in "fair" condition?

I don't need those example when I have the ones you provided to prove my point. Sure I had examples of crap, but you helped me by posting those nicely finished pistols selling under$1ooo. No one knows what condition any of their pistols are, what we know is that CMP alluded that Fair Condition Pistols start at $1000. So the condition does not matter, what matters is price to condition. BTW your statement above is just grasping at straws


The CMP pistols are most likely arsenal refurbished, I think we agree on that. I listed several auctions (all I could find) of arsenal refurbished military pistols that sold for an average of $1214. Your examples are of pistols with bad reblue jobs, pitting, wrong grips, etc. - many of which didn't even sell - and you use that as evidence that you can get "nicer" pistols than the ones the CMP will be selling, that you haven't even seen but keep saying are in "fair" condition.
[COLOR="red"]If they are in good/plus I hate to imagine what CMP will charge for them since they want to start Fair at $1000. Some of my examples are the same as yours and they are Good/plus arsenal refurbished. The crappy ones merely show people won't pay $1000 for Fair to Poor guns. Like I said above the average price doesn't matter, what matters is, a person can get a good/plus for less than a CMP Fair. I have never claimed the pistols CMP may sell are all Fair condition, I said they alluded to selling Fair condition pistols starting at $1000 and that $1000 is over priced for a fair conditioned pistol, especially when with a little patience one can get a better example for equal to or less money. [/COLOR]

Please catch up.

CMP alluded they will start Fair condition NOT Good/plus arsenal refurbished, 1911s at $1000.

I did not state how many if any are Fair condition, no one knows.

I simply stated that $1000 was over priced for Fair conditioned 1911s

There are several examples provide by both of us of Good/plus pistols selling below $1000. There were others higher priced but so what, people got caught up in the auction and over bid, happens quite often. Meaning with a little patience a better pistol can be had for less money.

You helped prove my point by posting Good/plus selling for less than $1000.
With those Good/plus examples selling under $1000 you claim that CMP pricing Fair condition 1911s at $1000 is considered under value.

[mosinnagantm9130]

Originally Posted by The Gleam

\

NO - auction prices from 2005 are EVEN LOWER - WHICH IS WHY I INCLUDED THEM.

And I ONLY showed actual final-end sales, not some trumped up reserve-auctions with a low starting bid, where the posts teetsjones showed only the opening bid required on a reserve-auction as the final price.

He's got a few that are close to what can be expected, but those are showing prices ranging from $850 to $1,200 - AS SOLD - and simply supports the foundation for a $1,000 price for the CMP rack-grade 1911 as accurate.

Regardless, if you are so misinformed that you wouldn't know a CMP rack grade from a Bubba'ed redo, nor would you have any interest in the first place, quit moaning and whining about the $1,000 asking price and simply stay clear the day they open these up for sale.

Fair enough?

Thank you. I would appreciate the favor.

Whoa there, pump the brakes on the emotion train. Relax.

Market prices from 2005 are irrelevant to this discussion. Doesn't matter what you are talking about, that was 11 years ago, this is now.

As I see it, Milsurp posted some very nice arsenal refurb pistols with an average price of $1214. None of the ones I clicked on from his links were even close to rack grade, those would likely be service grade.

I'm not saying $1200 for a service grade, papered CMP arsenal rebuild is too much. I'm saying $1000 for a rack grade is. Regardless, I'm sure there will be plenty who will pay that price, even if you could get a much better condition pistol (as milsurp posted) for only slightly more.

[teetsjones]

Originally Posted by The Gleam

Of course - the value NOW would be higher.



First, you are posting a lot of guns that are not comparable. Also, you are not posting the actual HIGHEST or even WINNING bid, but instead you are indicating the low starting bid as the price in your list - you don't know how Gunbroker works do you?

Obviously you did not follow the links as I listed the highest bid, several were under the reserve price, which show how much the bidders valued the gun. Remember something is only worth as much as someone is willing to pay for it. It is you who seems unclear of the concept.

Such as:



You are posting the required starting bid prices on reserve-auctions of what did not end as the known price; such as, the very 2nd and 3rd auctions above you listed - went several times without a sale, and high bids were well above $1500. Keep clicking on each time is shows "Click here to view the new listing".

Really!? Pay attention, I posted those example to show that's the amount someone was willing to pay, on the second example the starting bid was $500 the final bid was $550 and it did not meet reserve. I prefaced my list with this "There are several that did not meet reserve, but the high bid indicates what people think the gun is worth." Have someone read it out loud and explain it to you. That gun has been listed 23 times so far


So on the 2nd one you posted, this auction went to $1,950.00 - NOT $550 as you stated as the "high bid" - whereby the Buy Now! Price was $1,995.00 - so the seller merely has set his reserve price as his buy-it-now price - but you are playing a shell-game by showing it's price as $550.

Sure maybe on a different listing but the one I posted the highest bid was $550 and did not meet reserve. pull up the link, that particular listing never went to 1950, aand the buy it now on the listing I posted was 2149. You are looking at a re listing which I did not see or link.

Be honest:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=535167741
That gun has been listed 23 times so far and still not sold


And the third one that you say only went to $575 was even stated as an older re-blue, and sold at $1,599.99 - link below - where anyone can tell from the photos that was a refinished gun:

in the listing I posted it did only go to 575, the gun failed many times. The majority of bidders wouldn't bid to high on that gun. That gun listed 11 times many with no bids would you buy that gun at that price?A sucker would and the buyer found one after 11 listings

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=533921516

Yes It did after many re listings most with no bids, the seller found a sucker.


I would rather have a rack-grade untouched, then a Bubba refinish.
Like this one? http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=521565107

I intentionally did NOT include guns that did not end in a sale. I included auctions going back up to ten years, because inevitably, values go UP not DOWN, and if something in rough condition sold for $1,000 a decade ago, there is no doubt it will sell for more now.

Where as I did, because it shows what the majority of people will pay for an item rather than what some random idiot will finally pay. It's a much more honest and accurate measure. A greay exmle are those two auctions mentioned earlier for 23 and 11 listings to finally sell those crappy guns. In response to your sold for $1000 ten years ago will sell for more now, is not always true. A crappy AR that sold for $2000 5 years ago ain't going to sell for that now. Even with collectibles, over time collectors become more astute, and picky while there are some who will pay high for junk their numbers decline over time.


The mean on each of your figures being $1,000 aside for incorrect reporting of the final price or incomparable guns, which merely proves $1,000 is fair market value on the CMP rakc-grade, many of those are "refurbished" or refinished - not comparable to a CMP gun that has never been released to the public before. And your condition or grade is all over the place. Have you ever even seen a "rack grade" 1911 from CMP before?

Actually it shows a better picture across the board the market for the 1911. The final price only shows what someone may finally pay. In some cases it is a ridiculous amount for the gun being offered. Just because one person over pays for a gun is no indication of the true value. Remember some of those auctions were relisted many times until the item sold. The one that's been listed 23 times still hasn't sold, but all the listings reveal the prices some are willing to pay. I go by the fact CMP lists Rack grade as Fair. There were examples of Arsenal Refurbished guns included in my list that wee in good/plus condition that sold for less than $1000, yet you like others want to claim a Fair grade CMP is worth as much or more as a good/plus arsenal refurbished pistol on the open market. Pure delusion



No - again, you are neither reporting the actual final sale prices on most all of the links examples you showed, and you are saying "fair" condition in comparison to refinished, or redone by Bubba, or obviously guns with flaws and refinished that can be seen in the photos - and you are posting prices based on the starting bid price.

I can go back and post all the failed re listings until that particular gun sold, but all that shows is that eventually the buyer found a sucker honestly would you pay that amount for that gun?

You are also including a lot of Remington Rands. Everyone knows the Remington Rands are the lowest valued of all the USGI guns, and they can often be found in great condition. Many, many were made. Even excellent condition Rands typically only go for $1,000 to $1,500 - so should be excluded. Yes, a rack-grade Rand won't be worth much more than $500, nor would I be interested in one at that price either. :Shrug:

And you don't think Remington Rands are not going to make up a majority of guns the CMP will sell? LMAO exclude them even though they will be the majority of guns the CMP will likely sell. Are you actually serious? I can't think a better example due to them being so common. Are you that desperate to prove a point? Holy crap what an enormous lack of common sense. So with the statement you made above you are claiming since Remington Rands are so common it is unlikely CMP will have any to sell We both know they will and we both can speculate they will be the most common. Now another person makes my argument for me, $1000 is too much for a Fair condition 1911 more so in your own words $500 is too much.



NO - auction prices from 2005 are EVEN LOWER - WHICH IS WHY I INCLUDED THEM.

And I ONLY showed actual final-end sales, not some trumped up reserve-auctions with a low starting bid, where the posts teetsjones showed only the opening bid required on a reserve-auction as the final price.
Don't lie I showedthe highest bids made for those listigs.Not the opening bid. Please be honest in your statements. Just because some idiot finally over paid for acrappy gun is no indicater what the gun is worth to the general market. Why don't you Tell us how many times that gun was re listed before the buyer found a sucker?

He's got a few that are close to what can be expected, but those are showing prices ranging from $850 to $1,200 - AS SOLD - and simply supports the foundation for a $1,000 price for the CMP rack-grade 1911 as accurate.

Remember some of those "as sold" were good/plus arsenal refurbished selling less than the $1000 for a Fair rade CMP. So if paying the same or more for a lesser quality gun supports the price you are deluded

Regardless, if you are so misinformed that you wouldn't know a CMP rack grade from a Bubba'ed redo, nor would you have any interest in the first place, quit moaning and whining about the $1,000 asking price and simply stay clear the day they open these up for sale.

Be honest, I provided examples of good/plus condition arsenal refurbished 1911's selling for less than a rack/fair grade CMP proposed price. Far be it for me to stand between a fool and his money. But if you want to ignore the fact that you can get a non bubba'd arsenal build 1911 for less than CMPs lowest grade have at it, just don't be dis honest about it to rationalizs your willingnes to over pay for something.

Fair enough?

Thank you. I would appreciate the favor.

I doubt you will read what I posted above as you did not read the preface of the post you are quoting here. Which was made quite obvious form several of your un informed statements.

[teetsjones]

Originally Posted by mosinnagantm9130

Whoa there, pump the brakes on the emotion train. Relax.

Market prices from 2005 are irrelevant to this discussion. Doesn't matter what you are talking about, that was 11 years ago, this is now.

As I see it, Milsurp posted some very nice arsenal refurb pistols with an average price of $1214. None of the ones I clicked on from his links were even close to rack grade, those would likely be service grade.

I'm not saying $1200 for a service grade, papered CMP arsenal rebuild is too much. I'm saying $1000 for a rack grade is. Regardless, I'm sure there will be plenty who will pay that price, even if you could get a much better condition pistol (as milsurp posted) for only slightly more.

I think some people have deluded themselves into thinking the CMP rack grades are equal to service grades and higher.

I think the emotion stems from them viewing us like the Big Bad Wolf trying to blow their house down.

I am old enough to remember shopping for surplus 1911s and Mauser C96's at the Old Sacramento Armory. !911's went from $150 to $400. C96s went from $85 to $350. I recall a C96 with a 1/2" V shaped chunk missing from the end of the barrel, priced at $85.

[highpower]

I think most of the foot-stomping is by those that were fully expecting these 1911's were going to be sold at bargain basement prices. Now they are having a fit because they are going to be sold at a price point that is higher than they like. All this pissing and moaning over the price is going to change nothing.

Really guys, it is easy: If you think they are too expensive, don't buy one. But please stop crying and give it a rest....

[ccandgc]

Originally Posted by highpower

I think most of the foot-stomping is by those that were fully expecting these 1911's were going to be sold at bargain basement prices. Now they are having a fit because they are going to be sold at a price point that is higher than they like. All this pissing and moaning over the price is going to change nothing.

Really guys, it is easy: If you think they are too expensive, don't buy one. But please stop crying and give it a rest....

Pretty simple, huh!

[joefrank64k]

Originally Posted by highpower

I think most of the foot-stomping is by those that were fully expecting these 1911's were going to be sold at bargain basement prices. Now they are having a fit because they are going to be sold at a price point that is higher than they like. All this pissing and moaning over the price is going to change nothing.



Really guys, it is easy: If you think they are too expensive, don't buy one. But please stop crying and give it a rest....

Exactly...assuming the CMP ever gets these in inventory...they will be a complete sellout.

There's a lot of money floating around out there, and lots of folks who would love a chance to add a CMP-papered, non-bubba, US Property-marked 1911 to their stable.

[I Swan]

I like the fact that if I buy one from Gunbroker or especially in person I am seeing exactly what I am getting and not just taking any random gun the CMP sends me. I do feel there is some emotional attachment involved why many people want to buy the gun from the CMP.

What do you all think CMP papers add to the value like 5% or so?

[CALI-gula]

Originally Posted by The Gleam

Regardless, if you are so misinformed that you wouldn't know a CMP rack grade from a Bubba'ed redo, nor would you have any interest in the first place, quit moaning and whining about the $1,000 asking price and simply stay clear the day they open these up for sale.

Fair enough?

Thank you. I would appreciate the favor.

Originally Posted by highpower

I think most of the foot-stomping is by those that were fully expecting these 1911's were going to be sold at bargain basement prices. Now they are having a fit because they are going to be sold at a price point that is higher than they like. All this pissing and moaning over the price is going to change nothing.

Really guys, it is easy: If you think they are too expensive, don't buy one. But please stop crying and give it a rest....

These pretty much nail it in summary. Not much more needs to be said. It's like the repeat thread of tantrums complaining about prices in the marketplace every week. Buy, or don't. Pissing and moaning might make you feel better, but it's not up for a vote.



.

[Orlando]

Originally Posted by I Swan

.

What do you all think CMP papers add to the value like 5% or so?

Actually CM papers do add value. Just look how papered CMP Garands sell faster and at a higher price than those who do not

[CALI-gula]

Originally Posted by Orlando

Actually CM papers do add value. Just look how papered CMP Garands sell faster and at a higher price than those who do not

Exactly. it does.

.

[major burnout]

Originally Posted by major burnout

WTB military re-arsenaled 1911A1. Willing to pay up to $700.

Bump

[major burnout]

WTH-

Want to hire shill. Do you think you can sell ice to Eskimos? If yes I have a job for you. Need someone to advocate for market price fixing. Looking to drive down the price of collectable firearms. Some sort of firearms knowledge a must. Have plenty of unpaid shills working already. If you want to get paid you have to know what youre talking about.

PM resume.

[I Swan]

Originally Posted by Orlando

Actually CM papers do add value. Just look how papered CMP Garands sell faster and at a higher price than those who do not

I'm well aware of that. But on average how much more?