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  #1  
Old 06-24-2015, 1:17 AM
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Default Ques about Navy Firearms Training

Have a family member who was put on guard duty at her base and they issued her a weapon and only showed her were the safety was and how to check if it was loaded. But nothing else ? It's that normal.
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Old 06-24-2015, 1:34 AM
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What's her rate? And what was the weapon? Everyone qualifies with the M9 and M500 during basic training.
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Old 06-24-2015, 2:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Cpl. Haas View Post
What's her rate? And what was the weapon? Everyone qualifies with the M9 and M500 during basic training.
It's a M9 loaded with rubber bullets. Have to double check on her rate. I was only asking because one she has never fired a gun and they didn't teach her how to clear a jam.
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Old 06-24-2015, 3:37 AM
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Originally Posted by KrisDSA View Post
It's a M9 loaded with rubber bullets.

Why not just give her a whistle?
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Old 06-24-2015, 3:50 AM
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Small arms training is required for all military branches during boot camp.

Granted, the Navy spends more time teaching their recruits how to fold their clothes, but handling of small arms and a trip to the range is still required for graduation, is it not?
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Old 06-24-2015, 4:37 AM
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When I was in boot, we did laser gun training. Shooting a m9 with real bullets was optional and it was only one mag. One of our guys almost had his head blasted when he was slow to to respond to the RDI during the live fire session.

Not sure if it was required or not to graduate though, unfortunately I barely remember the training. This was in 2002.
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Old 06-24-2015, 9:35 AM
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It's a M9 loaded with rubber bullets. Have to double check on her rate. I was only asking because one she has never fired a gun and they didn't teach her how to clear a jam.
That makes no sense... What exactly is her enlisted rate, and what is she doing as a guard? I work with a former GM who was VBSS and went through advanced boarding training... they used Simunition rounds, but I have never heard of rubber bullets for an M9. Even the MA's here who are PRP don't have less-lethal munitions for their firearms.
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Old 06-24-2015, 10:08 AM
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Several years ago, I had to take action on a mishap investigation that occurred at Camp Pendleton. A member of my unit was firing an M-16 and suffered a mishap where a round exploded in the chamber and blew out the magazine well. We did an autopsy on the weapons remains and found that it was missing the bolt cam retaining pin (basically making it a "blow-back" weapon). Training protocols called for a member to be issued a weapon for training, and then to clean the weapon after use, and then return it to the unit armory.

We located the member who last fired, and had cleaned the weapon. He had first entered the service in the Navy and had only been provided with "Familiarization" training on the M9 and M16. No disassembly, cleaning or re-assembly instruction was included in boot camp syllabus.

The Marine Corps training syllabi assumed that all members were competent in these function by virtue of boot camp completion.

That incident prompted a brief review of the core skills that could be assumed by virtue of boot camp accession from the five services. The results were not good. There was no integration of training requirements between the services. IMHO, only the Army and Marines provided enough basic instruction to make a boot camp graduate a competent weapons bearer.

On the other hand, the Navy and Coast Guard require members to pass an individual certification, and to keep that certification current, in order to carry weapons. I don't know, but I have to assume that the other branches have similar requirements. Ideally, that should correct any deficiencies with the lack of boot camp instruction. I have to say "ideally" because our member was completing the certification course at the time of his mishap.

I have to ask if the Navy command in question was operating in accordance with directive when they issued the weapon?
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Old 06-24-2015, 10:37 AM
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I have to ask if the Navy command in question was operating in accordance with directive when they issued the weapon?
I'm calling BS on the entire story unless OP can come back with substantially more details... he's claiming his family member was put on "guard duty" and given an M9 with rubber bullets and no training? The only Sailors on guard duty on a Navy base are Master-at-Arms (MP's), and Auxiliary Security Forces, which are shore-based personnel in a collateral duty augmenting MA's... both involve further training on the M9, M500, and M4, as well as OC, baton, etc. training... in other words, you don't just get "put on guard duty".

There are armed watches on the ships while at sea and in port... but those are also armed with M9s and M4/M16s, and the watch stander is required to have a current qual for the weapon being carried. And, again, these are not less-lethal weapons... I have never heard of rubber 9mm rounds being kept in a Navy inventory.
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Old 06-24-2015, 11:13 AM
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My son is an FC1, E6 onboard a carrier. He carries a 9mm or a USN version of the short barreled AR-15, semi-auto only. He also carries both when personing the dock side entrance to the ship. He has been trained in and is very well qualified with both weapons.
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Old 06-24-2015, 12:03 PM
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Back a few years ago, 1964 to be exact . My enlistment was up in three months, my ship was due to deploy again to West-Pac. I was transferred too NAB Coronado (base security).

While there I stood gate watches, patrolled The Silver Strand @ night as well as chasing prisoners from point A to point B. I was issued a 1911 while on duty. I was never instructed on the operation of a 1911, nor did I ever fire one.

I was however instructed on and fired 40mm auto cannons (Bofor's) aboard ship.

I guess a lot has changed since then.
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Old 06-24-2015, 12:17 PM
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Back a few years ago, 1964 to be exact. My enlistment was up in three months, my ship was due to deploy again to West-Pac. I was transferred too NAB Coronado (base security).

While there I stood gate watches, patrolled The Silver Strand @ night as well as chasing prisoners from point A to point B. I was issued a 1911 while on duty. I was never instructed on the operation of a 1911, nor did I ever fire one.

I was however instructed on and fired 40mm auto cannons (Bofor's) aboard ship.

I guess a lot has changed since then.
I vaguely remember qualifying with the 1911 in bootcamp in 1980. IIRC, we got one magazine's worth and a lot of yelling.

Right before WestPac they herded a few of us over to the ranges at Camp Elliott, just east of the 163/I-15 split, and let us shoot the M14 and 1911 for quals. Only time I stood topside duty was right after the Beirut Bombing, when they'd put 2-3 of us on the fo'c's'le to keep an eye on things on the piers. I love the M14, but topside watches blew.
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Old 06-24-2015, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by KrisDSA View Post
Have a family member who was just put on guard duty at her base and they issued her a weapon and only showed her were the safety was and how to check if it was loaded. But nothing else ? It's that normal.
no.

I don't even know where to begin with this one..

I spent 20 years carrying small arms in the Navy; briefly in gator fleet, the Bee's and NCW.. retired as unit armory supervisor..

can't recall EVER standing any armed duty without weapons quals.. and I've stood a whole bunch of them..
from SAT/BAF with an m14 [my very first rifle expert medal ] to combat patrol boat crew served weapons gunner..
  • small arms training [classroom]
  • basic marksmanship skills testing
  • practical weapons courses [PWC]
  • PWC low light
  • regular sustainment quals
are all required to be issued a carry card per OPNAV 5512/2 [may have been revised by now ]

there used to be a physical security NEC for non MA / GM types to qual for MP duties.. Lackland in Texas I think?

story doesn't add up to me but then, what the hell do I know about the 'new' Navy
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Old 06-24-2015, 1:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Cpl. Haas View Post
I'm calling BS on the entire story unless OP can come back with substantially more details... he's claiming his family member was put on "guard duty" and given an M9 with rubber bullets and no training? The only Sailors on guard duty on a Navy base are Master-at-Arms (MP's), and Auxiliary Security Forces, which are shore-based personnel in a collateral duty augmenting MA's... both involve further training on the M9, M500, and M4, as well as OC, baton, etc. training... in other words, you don't just get "put on guard duty".

There are armed watches on the ships while at sea and in port... but those are also armed with M9s and M4/M16s, and the watch stander is required to have a current qual for the weapon being carried. And, again, these are not less-lethal weapons... I have never heard of rubber 9mm rounds being kept in a Navy inventory.
What's your email ? I can scan the letters from her and sent them to you. She is in boot camp right now.
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Old 06-24-2015, 1:29 PM
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That makes no sense... What exactly is her enlisted rate,---not sure if rate means job but she is in boot camp right now and graduate this Friday then off to aviation structural mechanic in FL and what is she doing as a guard? I don't know. She was put on guard duty for her barracks on week 2. going by her letter----- I work with a former GM who was VBSS and went through advanced boarding training... they used Simunition rounds, but I have never heard of rubber bullets ---- in her letter it says rubber bullets -----for an M9. Even the MA's here who are PRP don't have less-lethal munitions for their firearms.
at week 5 she had live fire practice at 3/7/15 yards. I never heard of the rubber bullets thing but that is why I asked about the firearms training.
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Old 06-24-2015, 2:17 PM
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What's your email ? I can scan the letters from her and sent them to you. She is in boot camp right now.
Okay, that's the key element missing from your original post... she's not on guard duty... she's a Recruit as RTC standing a fake watch with a fake gun. When I went through back in 2012, it was an Italian replica that looked like a Beretta M9 and was loaded with about 4 plastic dummy rounds. You carry it on "watch" and stand in front of the door to your division's compartment. The reason she was not given any training on it is because it's fake. It's also used to train how to conduct a weapons turnover at the beginning and end of a real watch.

The live fire event she told you about during Week 5 was the actual Navy Pistol Qualification course.
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Old 06-24-2015, 2:29 PM
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Okay, that's the key element missing from your original post... she's not on guard duty... she's a Recruit as RTC standing a fake watch with a fake gun. When I went through back in 2012, it was an Italian replica that looked like a Beretta M9 and was loaded with about 4 plastic dummy rounds. You carry it on "watch" and stand in front of the door to your division's compartment. The reason she was not given any training on it is because it's fake. It's also used to train how to conduct a weapons turnover at the beginning and end of a real watch.

The live fire event she told you about during Week 5 was the actual Navy Pistol Qualification course.
Ok good to know. She said 9mm M9 in the letter and didn't know the diff. I always believed the replicas were 8mm because the one I have is 8mm. Thanks for the help and your service sir.
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Old 06-24-2015, 2:36 PM
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Hahaha. Hashanah hahaha hahaha hahaha
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Old 06-24-2015, 3:29 PM
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that's pretty funny, issue a fake gun for training purposes and the trainee does not even know it's fake. But I'm sure her job in the Navy will not be as a trigger puller anyway, most Navy jobs don't.
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Old 06-24-2015, 4:41 PM
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What's your email ? I can scan the letters from her and sent them to you. She is in boot camp right now.
vital nugget of info missing from the op

Great Lakes RTC co. 242 Jun '89 <- kinda

besides carrying a fake gun for forward compartment watch, she's saluting the scuttlebutt [drinking fountain] and greeting it with 'good morning/afternoon/evening sir/ma'am, seaman recruit Rick reporting....'

saluting everything that moves when straggling [going anywhere out of formation]

ironing clothes with Ricky iron [hands]

clipping Irish penants [loose threads] from her new uniforms with Ricky scissors [nail clippers]

etc., etc...

ask her to take good care of our Navy and thanks for her service

and btw., as I mentioned above, she should be thoroughly versed with any small arms she's charged with carrying when she rejoins the real world
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Old 06-25-2015, 7:10 AM
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Have a family member who was put on guard duty at her base and they issued her a weapon and only showed her were the safety was and how to check if it was loaded. But nothing else ? It's that normal.
I can't say if it's normal or not but it does happen. I was shooting at the Home Avenue Police Gun Range in San Diego with my girlfriend when this navy female that lived in the base housing up the hill from the range, came up to me and asked if I could teach her to shoot for the same reason. She had been placed on gate duty and said she had little firearms training and the navy told her it was up to her to get proficient. I see people at the gate with empty holsters. Hilarious Navy. I'm a firearms instructor took her to the range after classroom time and she was a danger.
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Old 06-25-2015, 8:43 AM
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I vaguely remember qualifying with the 1911 in bootcamp in 1980. IIRC, we got one magazine's worth and a lot of yelling.

Right before WestPac they herded a few of us over to the ranges at Camp Elliott, just east of the 163/I-15 split, and let us shoot the M14 and 1911 for quals. Only time I stood topside duty was right after the Beirut Bombing, when they'd put 2-3 of us on the fo'c's'le to keep an eye on things on the piers. I love the M14, but topside watches blew.
Our boot camp company spent one day at the Camp Ellioitt Range, when we fired Springfield 06's but no pistols. The 1500 Marines that were embarked on our ship had M14's and M60's.
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Old 08-15-2015, 9:43 AM
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Okay, that's the key element missing from your original post... she's not on guard duty... she's a Recruit as RTC standing a fake watch with a fake gun. When I went through back in 2012, it was an Italian replica that looked like a Beretta M9 and was loaded with about 4 plastic dummy rounds. You carry it on "watch" and stand in front of the door to your division's compartment. The reason she was not given any training on it is because it's fake. It's also used to train how to conduct a weapons turnover at the beginning and end of a real watch.

The live fire event she told you about during Week 5 was the actual Navy Pistol Qualification course.
Quote:
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Ok good to know. She said 9mm M9 in the letter and didn't know the diff. I always believed the replicas were 8mm because the one I have is 8mm. Thanks for the help and your service sir.
Glad I scrolled down far enough to read these posts.

I'd also like to add; before being given the replica M9 the recruits DO have to demonstrate proper clearing barrel procedures, and basic weapon safety. The purpose of this "guard duty" is to train Sailors how to perform as a roving sentry, brief the Officer of the Deck or Petty Officer of the watch, and conduct proper watch turnover, as it will be required out in the fleet.

As Cpl Haas already stated; the Navy doesn't allow Sailors to carry weapons without being trained, even non-lethal weapons such as batons, OC, and handcuffs. The Navy does not use non-lethal or less-than-lethal ammunition in Law Enforcement. In eight years, the only place have even seen non-lethal ammo was in Iraq, those were bean bag rounds carried by the guy with the breaching shotgun.

Last edited by EugeneKM; 08-15-2015 at 3:31 PM.. Reason: miss wording
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Old 08-15-2015, 5:34 PM
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I'm an active duty Infantryman, been in for about a year, sitting at E4. Through basic and at my unit I've never touched a M9 once. On this upcoming deployment, as a gunner, I'm supposed to get one but still us gunners haven't had an time with them. I worked at a SoCal gun range and was a firearms instructor before the Army, so luckily I know my way around a M9, but what about the other dudes? The military just doesn't train with pistols because not everyone gets one and it's really a type of shooting that is totally neglected. It's a shame considering how much training you really need with the Beretta (DA/SA, slide-mounted safety that doubles as a de-cocker).

The reality is that with the wars dying down, the budgets getting cut, and the brass placing priorities elsewhere, situations like OP is describing are not uncommon. We own AR15s and M9s and shoot on the weekends to make up for the lack of training, which is what I would advise everyone.
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Old 08-16-2015, 2:50 PM
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I shot a 1911 with .22 caliber bullets in bootcamp, one magazine, this was 1994. Next time I shot a gun was 2006, 12 years later, with a M9. Gun safety was instilled in me during bootcamp. Still scared that I might mess up and get yelled at by GMs. Probably got PTSD from the firearm instructor in Great Mistakes... I mean Great Lakes
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Old 08-16-2015, 9:08 PM
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Gun safety was instilled in me during bootcamp. Still scared that I might mess up and get yelled at by GMs
Hahaha 100% Truth!
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