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Centerfire Rifles - Semiautomatic or Gas Operated Centerfire rifles, carbines and other gas operated rifles. |
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#41
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Most cases holding less than 40gr of powder are anemic.
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Randall Rausch AR work: www.ar15barrels.com Bolt actions: www.700barrels.com Foreign Semi Autos: www.akbarrels.com Barrel, sight and trigger work on most pistols and shotguns. Most work performed while-you-wait, evening and saturday appointments available. |
#42
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Interesting opinion coming from a guy wanting to sell AR barrels. You'll never have my business and probably most reading this as well.
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Hunting with the Modern Sporting Rifle (AR-15/AR-10) |
#43
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#44
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Quote:
I only work on them.
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Randall Rausch AR work: www.ar15barrels.com Bolt actions: www.700barrels.com Foreign Semi Autos: www.akbarrels.com Barrel, sight and trigger work on most pistols and shotguns. Most work performed while-you-wait, evening and saturday appointments available. |
#45
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My math and yes I know it's general , shows the 16" Grendel will catch up to the 6.8 right about 400yds, till then the the 6.8 has it beat by velocity and energy transferred . At 400yds and really anything over 300 I would be stepping up to the 308 or a like . Thats just me though . EDIT : while I was writing this I see you all have posted more . I was enjoying the debate but it appears to have turned in a way thats never healthy . Just because a guy is not an expert in exterior and terminal ballistic does not mean he can't be a good gunsmith . Changing the equations to suit your argument is never helpfully in a honest debate . I have always been going off your first comparisons . You don't get to change bullet weights powder charger and throw in what most guys get out of there hand loads just to make your argument work . Lets keep the gloves up fellas .
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Tolerate allow the existence, occurrence, or practice of (something that one does not necessarily like or agree with) without interference. Anyone else find it sad that those who preach tolerance CAN'T allow the existence, occurrence, or practice of (something that they do not necessarily like or agree with) without interference. I write almost everything in a jovial manner regardless of content . If that's not how you took it please try again Last edited by Metal God; 07-05-2013 at 11:08 PM.. |
#46
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I am glad you finally noticed that grendle does not get loaded to 6.8 velocities. You have the answer to WHY no factory grendle ammo reaches those speeds, it is on the tip of your brain, it's ballistic coefficient. If both calibers are operating from the same pressure the larger diameter caliber has more area acted on and therefore more force applied, and accelerates faster (acceleration = force/mass ). It's like the opposite side of that same coin when drag slows down a larger diameter bullet bullet more quickly than a slower one. Major over simplification, but you get the idea. Add to that the fact that according to Randel, grendel cases can't be loaded to 6.8 pressures, and you start to see why more energy gets dumped into tearing game up by 6.8 than by 6.5. There is a reason why 6.8 has growing market share, while 6.5 not so much. It's because 6.8 is a more effective round on game until you get out past the point at which it is time to transition to .308. 6.5 Grendle is the Betamax of the AR cartridge world, it's only better on paper. And like Betamax the next several decades we are going to here about how it was a superior technology so far ahead of its time that it was misunderstood by the masses, understood only by the esoteric few who TRULY understood the advantages it offered. Advantages like putting SMALLER holes in game animals.
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"don't be that guy"... |
#47
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Lets assume a velocity of 2250 and a bullet grain of 120 when we impact for both a 6.8 and 6.5. Lets both run those numbers through the HITS calculator to see which one at that velocity will better kill a medium sized game animal.
Here's the results 6.5=664 6.8=602 As you see all things being equal the 6.5mm does more damage than the 6.8. Play with it yourself and change up the numbers.
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Hunting with the Modern Sporting Rifle (AR-15/AR-10) Last edited by Xcountryrider; 07-06-2013 at 6:50 AM.. |
#48
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Hunting with the Modern Sporting Rifle (AR-15/AR-10) |
#49
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Hunting with the Modern Sporting Rifle (AR-15/AR-10) Last edited by Xcountryrider; 07-06-2013 at 7:35 AM.. |
#50
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Not entertaining at all. Worthless in fact as well boring,dead horse kicking,same-o same-o,what's the point,who cares, ect,ect. Didn't you get kicked out of the hunting forum for the same kind of self centered lets just argue type post's.....I believe so.
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#51
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And here I wanted a Grendel for a 1000 yard paper punch out of a AR15. Frankly there supposidly no other round that can be chambered in the AR15 that can perform better at those distances.
For me, being able to hunt with it would just be icing on the cake. I live in Southern Orange County as well, so I also doubt I'd shoot anything larger than a boar. Sure there are probably better calibers for the job, but I like the AR platform and 6.5g will probably be the least expensive route to get a decent AR precision shooter at costs a lot cheaper than any other semi auto precision rifle.
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#52
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I did use the calc http://www.hornady.com/ballistics-re...ics-calculator I don't know how to make it show the numbers I imputed
Yes if you have the same muzzle velocity the 6.5 could be better but you don't and thats been my point from the start . The 6.5 factory 123gr sst out of a 16" barrel has a velocity of 2250 cus of the shorter barrel . The 6.8 factory 120 sst out of a 16" barrel has a velocity of 2460 . Go ahead and plug those numbers in to your hit point calc and you will see the 6.8 will out perform the grendel out to and past 300yds EDIT just did the hits calc with my numbers 6.8 = 691 H.I.T.S with 1640 ft.lbs of energy 6.5 = 697 H.I.T.S with 1380 ft.lbs of energy At this point I'd like to know why Hornady is ignoring the extra 260 ft.lbs of evergy transfered at target and claiming the the smaller slower bullet will be more effective .
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Tolerate allow the existence, occurrence, or practice of (something that one does not necessarily like or agree with) without interference. Anyone else find it sad that those who preach tolerance CAN'T allow the existence, occurrence, or practice of (something that they do not necessarily like or agree with) without interference. I write almost everything in a jovial manner regardless of content . If that's not how you took it please try again Last edited by Metal God; 07-06-2013 at 7:56 AM.. |
#53
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Hunting with the Modern Sporting Rifle (AR-15/AR-10) |
#54
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http://www.hornady.com/store/6.5-Grendel-123-gr-SST/ http://www.hornady.com/store/6.8mm-SPC-120-GR-SST/
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#55
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They don't go the same speed at the same bullet weight. 6.8 goes faster, because it has more area, the pressure provides more force and therefore more acceler... Never mind. You are absolutely right, the Betamax, er I mean, 6.5 numbers can be artificially manipulated to outperform a non-existent under loaded 6.8 round. While you are at it, why keep the velocities even, why not just enter LOWER velocities for the 6.8? Then you would really win the argument. 6.5 isn't a mediocre and overpriced cartridge, its just misunderstood...
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"don't be that guy"... |
#56
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Quote:
you get to change your numbers with hand loads for the grendel but did not do the same for the 6.8 and that was my point about you changing the numbers to fit your argument .
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Tolerate allow the existence, occurrence, or practice of (something that one does not necessarily like or agree with) without interference. Anyone else find it sad that those who preach tolerance CAN'T allow the existence, occurrence, or practice of (something that they do not necessarily like or agree with) without interference. I write almost everything in a jovial manner regardless of content . If that's not how you took it please try again |
#57
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Quote:
Corrected Chart using Hornady Data for BOTH rounds
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Hunting with the Modern Sporting Rifle (AR-15/AR-10) Last edited by Xcountryrider; 07-06-2013 at 2:47 PM.. |
#58
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Using this data the turn over is at 225 yards where the Grendel takes over with velocity. The Grendel has more effect on target from the barrel according to HITS. In the spirit of full disclosure heres the ballistic calculator i used so you can check my work.
http://www.handloads.com/calc/
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Hunting with the Modern Sporting Rifle (AR-15/AR-10) Last edited by Xcountryrider; 07-06-2013 at 8:37 AM.. |
#59
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I like the numbers and they seem to mirror what I was getting . I had the velocity a little lower but still shows what I was seing . I'm still VERY interested why ft.lbs energy is no longer relevant when it comes to terminal ballistics. That BIG temp cavity you see in the video is from the ft.lbs of energy being tranfered to the gel . I'm going to need to do some more research on this subject . To be honest this was the first time I saw the H.I.T.S calc so like all old school shooters I'm not ready to call it law yet
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Tolerate allow the existence, occurrence, or practice of (something that one does not necessarily like or agree with) without interference. Anyone else find it sad that those who preach tolerance CAN'T allow the existence, occurrence, or practice of (something that they do not necessarily like or agree with) without interference. I write almost everything in a jovial manner regardless of content . If that's not how you took it please try again |
#60
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Hunting with the Modern Sporting Rifle (AR-15/AR-10) |
#61
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I wish i had data for 18in or 20in barrels since i'm pretty sure thats what most of us are using for hunting. 16in doesn't have the reach and 24in is to long to lug around.
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Hunting with the Modern Sporting Rifle (AR-15/AR-10) Last edited by Xcountryrider; 07-06-2013 at 9:16 AM.. |
#62
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The calculator takes BC into account which is only a factor in exterior ballistics. Only energy and bullet construction matter to internal ballistics.
__________________
Randall Rausch AR work: www.ar15barrels.com Bolt actions: www.700barrels.com Foreign Semi Autos: www.akbarrels.com Barrel, sight and trigger work on most pistols and shotguns. Most work performed while-you-wait, evening and saturday appointments available. Last edited by ar15barrels; 07-06-2013 at 10:08 AM.. |
#63
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Hunting with the Modern Sporting Rifle (AR-15/AR-10) |
#65
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Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk 2
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Hunting with the Modern Sporting Rifle (AR-15/AR-10) |
#66
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You guys crack me up. You are arguing the merits of a 222 vs a 223. I'm sure the squirrel you hit won't know the difference even if there is some theoretical data that shows the 223 is much better on paper.
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#67
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Dead is Dead not matter the bullet or BC if a person thinks one is a far superior killer over the other he is so very wrong! especially at distances below 500 yrds, oh wait a 6.8 is crap at that distance anyways so it's all moot.
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#68
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I'm not arguing that the 6.8SPC isn't a good deer round it is. What i'm saying is that the old idea that the 6.8SPC is better in the short ranges and the 6.5 better in the long ranges is faulty. The data shows a different story. The 6.5 is just as effective and more right from the barrel when compared to a comparable 6.8SPC round. A slightly higher muzzle velocity and slightly larger caliber is not the whole story. The special characteristics of the 6.5 such as its longer bullet shape actually give it more lethal terminal ballistics. Higher than the caliber alone would suggest.
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Hunting with the Modern Sporting Rifle (AR-15/AR-10) Last edited by Xcountryrider; 07-06-2013 at 2:44 PM.. |
#69
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The argument for the 6.8SPC is not a ballistic argument its a logistics argument. Ammo, barrels, bolts are in stock all over. Not so for the Grendel. The Grendel has better ballistics but is hard to find parts and ammo.
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Hunting with the Modern Sporting Rifle (AR-15/AR-10) |
#70
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What special characteristics, is it shineyer? Does it stay crunchy in milk longer? How the heck is 753 "as effective as" 877? Are those special properties the power ignore facts that don't fit into your preconceived notions? YOU brought up HITS numbers, now they don't matter unless you slow down heavier 6.8 rounds? I'm not sure about the validity of HITS numbers as anything more than a nice way to ballpark terminal energy to make some very rough comparisons, but according to you a 15% decrease is "as effective as"? By that logic somebody who is 5' 2" is "as tall as" somebody who is 6', you might not notice the difference, but most people would. Maybe the special properties are really high goldfish bowl pimp shoes so that nobody else notices the 15% difference?
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"don't be that guy"... |
#71
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Remember when we talked about Betamax earlier? There is little supply for Grendel because there is little demand for Grendel. There is supply for 6.8 because there is demand for 6.8.
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"don't be that guy"... |
#72
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Hunting with the Modern Sporting Rifle (AR-15/AR-10) Last edited by Xcountryrider; 07-06-2013 at 9:32 PM.. |
#73
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do you ever feel like the whole world is out to get you
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Tolerate allow the existence, occurrence, or practice of (something that one does not necessarily like or agree with) without interference. Anyone else find it sad that those who preach tolerance CAN'T allow the existence, occurrence, or practice of (something that they do not necessarily like or agree with) without interference. I write almost everything in a jovial manner regardless of content . If that's not how you took it please try again |
#74
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A better hunting bullet for both rifles would be the 130gr Nosler Accubond. Its expands at 1300fps unlike the berger that requires 1800FPS. The other factor is how the Berger actually works. It penetrates a few inches and explodes into a tiny lead shrapnel grenade. This creates a devastating wound cavity but also peppers your meat with hundreds of tiny lead granules. Ingest those and risk lead poisoning. The Nosler retains its mass and does not explode.
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Hunting with the Modern Sporting Rifle (AR-15/AR-10) |
#75
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Speak for yourself, but don't speak for me.
I have Dr Gary Roberts number in my cell phone to refer to on matters of internal ballistics.
__________________
Randall Rausch AR work: www.ar15barrels.com Bolt actions: www.700barrels.com Foreign Semi Autos: www.akbarrels.com Barrel, sight and trigger work on most pistols and shotguns. Most work performed while-you-wait, evening and saturday appointments available. |
#76
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1. as you HAVE noted, the same weight 6.8 bullet is slowed down faster by the pressure of the air it travels through because it has more surface area to interact with the air for the given mass. 2. as you HAVE NOT noted, the 6.8 bullet has more surface area to interact with pressure generated in the gun barrel, and therefore has more force (surface area x pressure) acting on it, and it is accelerated faster when operating at the same pressures. What this means is that at the muzzle, and for quite a ways thereafter, 6.8 moves faster, all other things being equal. Your touted ballistic coefficient is a major reason why Grendel is slower at the muzzle. That is the tradeoff that is required for better performance out in the .308 ranges, unfortunately the .308 family of cartridges is doing that better for less.
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"don't be that guy"... |
#77
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In order to create equal thrust on the bolt lugs, the 6.8 can be run at higher pressures than the 6.5 due to the 6.5 case being larger in diameter. Play with my bolt thrust excel sheet that you will find here: www.ar15barrels.com/tech.shtml
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Randall Rausch AR work: www.ar15barrels.com Bolt actions: www.700barrels.com Foreign Semi Autos: www.akbarrels.com Barrel, sight and trigger work on most pistols and shotguns. Most work performed while-you-wait, evening and saturday appointments available. |
#78
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Hunting with the Modern Sporting Rifle (AR-15/AR-10) |
#79
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Did the good Dr. tell you AR -15's were anemic?
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Hunting with the Modern Sporting Rifle (AR-15/AR-10) |
#80
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