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Concealed Carry Discussion General discussion regarding CCW/LTC in California

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  #41  
Old 07-31-2014, 8:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Jester3 View Post
Neighbors are encouraged to rat you out if you water your lawn, burn on a non- burn day. Shame you have to watch yourself so hard, but the libs. only need a little info. to screw you.

The only person who ever turned me in to the water cops for watering on the wrong day was the little old lady who lived next door in the late 80's. She was extremely conservative, a loyal and frequent donor to republican candidates, and a lifetime NRA member. She also claimed to be a direct descendant of Brigham Young. I never knew whether or not to believe that claim, but the rest was 100% substantiated.

She also called the real cops on the neighbor across the street for cleaning his deer rifle in the garage, taking a little dramatic license in her complaint. I guess she must've been a secret lib.
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  #42  
Old 07-31-2014, 9:27 PM
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Originally Posted by ZirconJohn View Post
And second... this is why I DO NOT tell people, show people, mention, hint, or talk about my LTC.

You've heard it before; "concealed means concealed" - and a long time ago, I added "...even in conversation".

There are people who know I have an LTC; family and friends... when they ask "hey John, are you packing right now?" - I tell them "NO"

People in earshot can hear and have at times responded "you carry a gun?" - I respond: "well... I'm licensed, but I don't carry every day... like now, I tell them "there's no need to carry all the time, every day" - I LIE...!!! Big fat lie... because I carry 24/7/365 and twice on Sundays...!

And that's it, no talking about it, I don't explain why... even if they ask "why not" I don't answer... I shrug my shoulders and say "I dunno" and change the subject, even if they are pro gun... I don't care.

Never... ever... under any circumstances, DO NOT... you MUST resist yourself... 'concealed means concealed, even in conversation'
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Haha. You should see all of my old acquaintances or new people I meet at gatherings who all think I'm either a teetotaler or recovering alcoholic.
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  #43  
Old 07-31-2014, 9:39 PM
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Rights are a nice notion. We have privileges. Like speech, keeping and bearing arms, fair trial, unreasonable search and seizure. See where I'm going with this? Anything that can be taken away isn't a right. Period.

It's disappointing that they would pull it so fast, but not surprising. Any sheriff in socal is a politician first and LEO second.
  #44  
Old 07-31-2014, 10:02 PM
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Originally Posted by boopiejones View Post
if i'm reading this correctly, the people that complained weren't even there in the parking lot? someone simply overheard 3rd person that you unholstered your gun in a parking lot and they filed a complaint with the police? what police officer in their right mind would even listen to such a person?

"i heard from my friend that his friend showed him a gun in the parking lot of the library and i'm very angry" that makes no sense at all...

i'd be willing to bet that there are LIES in the police report. i'd demand to see it...
^^^This^^^

Heresy. I'd challenge this decision.
  #45  
Old 08-01-2014, 6:32 AM
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Originally Posted by 71MUSTY View Post
Sorry to jump on the pile but

DUMBAS$.

That being said I would absolutely appeal/ ask for a reconsideration. But, since there does not seem to be any crime involved, I would not try to argue my case and instead take the humble approach first.

"Sorry, I screwed up, won't do it again."

I am not a LEO, but in my experience a guy who screwed up and learned from it is far better than someone who has never screwed up yet.


Best of luck.
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  #46  
Old 08-01-2014, 8:35 AM
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Originally Posted by ai6pg View Post
Brandishing was what they first asked about when I met with deputies last week.

I would have preferred to say "I don't answer questions", but that probably wouldn't have flown very far.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ai6pg View Post
No I won't deny it. It's public knowledge right now. Just kinda fud. Sigh.
Sounds like they interviewed you to follow-up on the complaint they received and you were truthful that you showed it to some colleagues in the parking lot at work.

Sucks that they revoked your license but I do not see how you can appeal. Your licensed for conceal carry and you ended up open carrying when you decided to pull it out to show your colleagues.

That's a tough lesson to learn.
  #47  
Old 08-01-2014, 8:43 AM
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Yes, i sure did
He had a holster I wanted to try out


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  #48  
Old 08-01-2014, 9:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Nor*Cal View Post
Sounds like they interviewed you to follow-up on the complaint they received and you were truthful that you showed it to some colleagues in the parking lot at work.

Sucks that they revoked your license but I do not see how you can appeal. Your licensed for conceal carry and you ended up open carrying when you decided to pull it out to show your colleagues.

That's a tough lesson to learn.
If that's 'Open Carrying' then putting it in a locked safe in your trunk could also be defined as 'Open Carrying', especially if spotted by anyone in the parking lot!
  #49  
Old 08-01-2014, 9:21 AM
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Sorry about that, OP. Hopefully you'll get it back.

There's a lesson there for all if us who not only carry, but post questions if it's ok to clean our guns in the backyard where people can see over the fence, in the garage with the door open, etc.
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Old 08-01-2014, 9:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old_Bald_Guy View Post
That wasn't brandishing. This is brandishing:

417. (a) (2) Every person who, except in self-defense, in the presence of any other person, draws or exhibits any firearm, whether loaded or unloaded, in a rude, angry, or threatening manner, or who in any manner, unlawfully uses a firearm in any fight or quarrel is punishable as follows:
(A) If the violation occurs in a public place and the firearm is a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person, by imprisonment in a county jail for not less than three
months and not more than one year, by a fine not to exceed one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both that fine and imprisonment.
Yes but open carry is illegal. so pulling it out in public is a no no...
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Old 08-01-2014, 9:26 AM
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It was just hearsay. I would have denied it mysefl. How could they possibly prove it...
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Old 08-01-2014, 9:30 AM
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Originally Posted by titan2 View Post
If that's 'Open Carrying' then putting it in a locked safe in your trunk could also be defined as 'Open Carrying', especially if spotted by anyone in the parking lot!
He was openly carrying his handgun in order to show it to his colleagues. It was no longer concealed. Very different than pulling your handgun in order to lock it in your trunk or locked container.
  #53  
Old 08-01-2014, 9:31 AM
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Originally Posted by riddler408 View Post
It was just hearsay. I would have denied it mysefl. How could they possibly prove it...
Not everyone wants to lie. Plus, if found to be lying they might ban him for a long time. Also, that means his friend(s) would have to lie if questioned by the cops. They may not be comfortable with lying either.
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Old 08-01-2014, 9:34 AM
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It's not a criminal trial so you don't get reasonable doubt protections.
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Old 08-01-2014, 9:36 AM
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Not to be crappy, but in the cops eyes it shows poor judgement and you weren't even under stress. Concealed Carry is all about being responsible as I'm sure you are well aware of. Sometimes people make mistakes, you don't get to make many with firearms, especially in public. I'm not saying you were being dangerous in this situation.
  #56  
Old 08-01-2014, 9:42 AM
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I was wondering if it would be that easy to lose a right/CCW permit.

what happens if or when all California CCW permit holders info becomes public. Can the anti's call and complain, and create problems for CCW holders?
  #57  
Old 08-01-2014, 9:56 AM
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That is exactly what I am afraid of, revocation. When I was in my interview, the placer sheriff mentioned having to revoke someones CCW. He didn't say why, but I got the feeling he was doing something the sheriff thought was stupid and the guy only had his ccw for a month.
  #58  
Old 08-01-2014, 10:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mountainmark View Post
I was wondering if it would be that easy to lose a right/CCW permit.

what happens if or when all California CCW permit holders info becomes public. Can the anti's call and complain, and create problems for CCW holders?
Sure they could. They could follow you on the road then phone in a "man pointing a gun at cars" or "man pointed a gun at me when I pulled out in front of him" call. When you get pulled over, you have a gun. How do you think that would go down? Not good....

That's why no one should ever know - girlfriends, neighbors, CO-WORKERS, etc. It would be so easy to make your life miserable if they decided to.

Last edited by SkyHawk; 08-01-2014 at 10:05 AM..
  #59  
Old 08-01-2014, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Doheny View Post
Not everyone wants to lie. Plus, if found to be lying they might ban him for a long time. Also, that means his friend(s) would have to lie if questioned by the cops. They may not be comfortable with lying either.
Yes that is true. Just really sucks to loose a ccw over hearsay is my point. really blows.
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Old 08-01-2014, 10:07 AM
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I hate to see this happen and there was no evil intent on OPs part but we all know how much this state hates guns and the people who own them. Let's hope he gets his LTC back but I'm sure there's about a snowball's chance in hell.

This state has managed to vilify gun ownership and we all live in fear of being falsely accused of mishandling a firearm. After all, it takes absolutely nothing for your gun hating neighbor to claim, "he pointed a gun at me!" and you get a knock on your door from some unsmiling law enforcement officers ready to cuff and stuff you and ruin your life.
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  #61  
Old 08-01-2014, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by riddler408 View Post
Yes but open carry is illegal. so pulling it out in public is a no no...

Yep. I'm aware of that. Simply correcting an inaccurate reply from someone other than the OP.
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  #62  
Old 08-01-2014, 10:16 AM
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OP, the forum is full of people willing to bash you for your silliness. Im not going to participate in that! :face palm:

Im sorry to hear that bro, I'm really sorry! I know you must feel terrible. Thank you for sharing for the sake of the rest of us. Real time lessons. I personally feel you didn't deserve revocation. but hey, thats just me apparently.
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Old 08-01-2014, 10:24 AM
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OP, the forum is full of people willing to bash you for your silliness. Im not going to participate in that! :face palm:

Im sorry to hear that bro, I'm really sorry! I know you must feel terrible. Thank you for sharing for the sake of the rest of us. Real time lessons. I personally feel you didn't deserve revocation. but hey, thats just me apparently.
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Old 08-01-2014, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by titan2 View Post
If that's 'Open Carrying' then putting it in a locked safe in your trunk could also be defined as 'Open Carrying', especially if spotted by anyone in the parking lot!
I think you're missing the intent of the act. Attempting to lock a gun and securely store it is a reasonable action. Deliberately displaying a concealed weapon has a totally different intent, and a much more capricious goal.
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  #65  
Old 08-01-2014, 10:29 AM
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is there some kind of appeal process ?
  #66  
Old 08-01-2014, 11:26 AM
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I feel for you OP. Crossing my fingers I am not about to end up in the same boat myself.

Got a call from the Sherrifs Office about my lost Kahr and got grilled for about 20 minutes on my carrying techniques and what kind of training I received and such. Then found out from a friend that the Officer that called me called the class I got my training from and chewed the instructors *** off. The instructor then proceeded to use me as an example on improper firearms ownership.

From what my friend told me, the story changed quite a bit through the grapevine. Not sure if it was the instructor or the Officer that was embellishing but the story was definitely twisted into the "Malicious Intent" territory

All you can do is try and do some kind of appeal and cross your fingers buddy
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Old 08-01-2014, 11:53 AM
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Excerpt from my letter to the Sherrif:

When I have displayed my concealed weapon, it has been to some of my friends or colleagues while educating them about firearms laws and uses. I am a NRA Certified Firearms Instructor and I discuss firearms with people frequently.

When displaying my firearms for educational purposes, I take the weapon, point it in a safe direction, clear the firearm, show the firearm is clear, and then demonstrate the proper way to handle a firearm before having the friend handle the firearm.

If I said something else during my interview, it was due to the stress I was under. An interview and determination is not due process.

In respect of this, I would ask that you please reconsider your order to surrender my CCW permit.
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Old 08-01-2014, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by ConcealedKalifornia View Post

Got a call from the Sherrifs Office about my lost Kahr and got grilled for about 20 minutes on my carrying techniques and what kind of training I received and such. Then found out from a friend that the Officer that called me called the class I got my training from and chewed the instructors *** off. The instructor then proceeded to use me as an example on improper firearms ownership.

From what my friend told me, the story changed quite a bit through the grapevine. Not sure if it was the instructor or the Officer that was embellishing but the story was definitely twisted into the "Malicious Intent" territory
Okay ya chummed the waters.. I would be interested in hearing the entire story....
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  #69  
Old 08-01-2014, 12:24 PM
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Okay ya chummed the waters.. I would be interested in hearing the entire story....
Well the full story of the lost weapon is in a thread i posted. Feel free to go check it out, but Ill give a quick recap.

Basically I went on a motorcycle ride with my father for fathers day. I have a crotch rocket and it is uncomfortable to carry while riding (Appendix Carry) so I put it in my backpack and tied the backpack to the back of the motorcycle with a new tie down strap. Checked it multiple times for the first half of the day, but sometime on the ride home the strap broke and backpack W/ gun fell off. We turned around once noticed and tried to find it. Found half the strap aways up highway 50, but no sign of backpack. Spent several hours looking but no luck. I reported the firearm lost to my sheriffs office.

A few weeks later I get a call from a different Officer than the one who gave me the case number and he informed me he was investigating my lost firearm and he just wanted to clarify a few things from the original report.
I figured he wanted to make sure that I wasn't just creating a "Boating Accident" story so I happily abliged and answered his questions. Once he started asking questions about my training, and a couple other seemingly off topic questions, I asked him if there was more to the story... Well there was, he was specifically from Records and was investigating my CCW issuance. He was still fairly nice however so I answered the rest of his questions, and even re wrote a detailed report and emailed it to him on his request.

Well fast forward to two nights ago when my friend tells me the story about the gun instructor (I recommended the class to him). And basically by the sounds of it the instructor got as grilled as I did and wasn't happy about it. (Don't blame him really.) But the problem Is that when he used me as an example (Didn't give my name or anything which is good) he seemed to have the opinion that my "accident" wasn't so much of an accident, according to my friend.

The only thing that I'm really interested in is where his opinion came from. I'm wondering if he came up with it on his own, did the Officer lead him to believe it, or is my friend a Jack4$$ and blowing the whole thing outta proportion. Debating calling the instructor to ask myself, but don't really think that will accomplish anything


EDIT: Sorry to thread jack OP! I think your letter is okay but all you are really saying is "Yes I broke the rules, but I was careful when I did it! I understand you don't want to back down or anything (as I am the same way...) I also think you got busted for something stupid, but remember what state we are dealing with!!! Whats more important, your principles, or your self protection?
You are in a crappy position, but you might consider trying to go at a different angle than "Yes I broke the rules, but the rules are crap."

Last edited by ConcealedKalifornia; 08-01-2014 at 12:30 PM..
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Old 08-01-2014, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by riddler408 View Post
It was just hearsay. I would have denied it mysefl. How could they possibly prove it...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doheny View Post
Not everyone wants to lie. Plus, if found to be lying they might ban him for a long time. Also, that means his friend(s) would have to lie if questioned by the cops. They may not be comfortable with lying either.
Technically you're being a accused of a crime....that's why it prolly would have been better to say nothing and demand to be presented with the evidence.

But if they knew who the friend was you showed it to you were prolly screwed anyway.
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Old 08-01-2014, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by ai6pg View Post
Excerpt from my letter to the Sherrif:

When I have displayed my concealed weapon, it has been to some of my friends or colleagues while educating them about firearms laws and uses. I am a NRA Certified Firearms Instructor and I discuss firearms with people frequently.

When displaying my firearms for educational purposes, I take the weapon, point it in a safe direction, clear the firearm, show the firearm is clear, and then demonstrate the proper way to handle a firearm before having the friend handle the firearm.

If I said something else during my interview, it was due to the stress I was under. An interview and determination is not due process.

In respect of this, I would ask that you please reconsider your order to surrender my CCW permit.
The problem with that statement is......regardless of how careful you are when doing so......if you're doing it in a public place you're breaking the law, and admitting to it in writing to the Sheriff.

If you're an NRA instructor, and wanting to educate people, then its fairly reasonable for them to expect you to do so according to the law which would mean telling your friend(s): "I'm sorry but it's illegal for me to show you here. If you'd interested come by my house, or I can stop by yours, or we can go to a shooting range, but I cannot legally show it to you here."

That would be lesson #1 to your friend(s)....that being how stupid CA laws are. So now you get to teach them lesson #2......what happens when you live in a state full retards and rats and own guns.
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Old 08-01-2014, 12:41 PM
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What would make a smart person decide to expose and unholster his gun in a parking lot in a public place. Was it to "educate" or show off. There is a time and place for everything and that wasn't it. IMHO it shows bad judgement for a regular guy, for an instructor it looks even worse to the IA. If you can't be trusted with little things, then you can't be. .. Good luck.
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Old 08-01-2014, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by glockman19 View Post
^^^This^^^



Heresy. I'd challenge this decision.

He confessed in the inquiry he's hosed
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Old 08-01-2014, 1:18 PM
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ai6pg
Long story short " You F&cked up " and now your paying the price, as an instructor you are held to a higher standard and the sheriff has lost his trust in you, I think being honest was the right thing to do but your *** was grass well before you made that statement to the sheriff.

You need new friends period

Good luck and thanks for teaching lots of other Calguners what "NOT TO DO"
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Old 08-01-2014, 1:26 PM
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Sorry to hear OP.

Stupid California Laws.

Best of luck going forward.

Judged by 12 or carried by 6? I think you get my point.
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Old 08-01-2014, 1:51 PM
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Originally Posted by ai6pg View Post
Excerpt from my letter to the Sherrif:

When I have displayed my concealed weapon, it has been to some of my friends or colleagues while educating them about firearms laws and uses. I am a NRA Certified Firearms Instructor and I discuss firearms with people frequently.

When displaying my firearms for educational purposes, I take the weapon, point it in a safe direction, clear the firearm, show the firearm is clear, and then demonstrate the proper way to handle a firearm before having the friend handle the firearm.

If I said something else during my interview, it was due to the stress I was under. An interview and determination is not due process.

In respect of this, I would ask that you please reconsider your order to surrender my CCW permit.
Really?
So you want to document that chances are you are going to do it again.
You keep talking about this education thing you can't get out of your head. When you are wearing your NRA Instructor hat in your classroom fine. If you are CCWing not fine. Why do you feel such a need to show people your concealed carry weapon? Better hope the NRA doesn't get a hold of this story, they will pull your certification.
Learn from your mistake. Don't do it again!
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  #77  
Old 08-01-2014, 2:10 PM
mike_in_ca mike_in_ca is offline
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Really?
So you want to document that chances are you are going to do it again.
You keep talking about this education thing you can't get out of your head. When you are wearing your NRA Instructor hat in your classroom fine. If you are CCWing not fine. Why do you feel such a need to show people your concealed carry weapon? Better hope the NRA doesn't get a hold of this story, they will pull your certification.
Learn from your mistake. Don't do it again!
well said
  #78  
Old 08-01-2014, 2:12 PM
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RollingCode3 RollingCode3 is offline
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What would make a smart person decide to expose and unholster his gun in a parking lot in a public place. Was it to "educate" or show off. There is a time and place for everything and that wasn't it. IMHO it shows bad judgement for a regular guy, for an instructor it looks even worse to the IA. If you can't be trusted with little things, then you can't be. .. Good luck.
+1. I discuss/educate firearms in public with friends all the time. There is no reason to unholster your gun in public. Why do continue to bring up that your are a NRA instructor? What does it have to do with anything? You should know better than that.
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  #79  
Old 08-01-2014, 2:46 PM
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ChrisC ChrisC is offline
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Excerpt from my letter to the Sherrif:

When I have displayed my concealed weapon, it has been to some of my friends or colleagues while educating them about firearms laws and uses. I am a NRA Certified Firearms Instructor and I discuss firearms with people frequently.

When displaying my firearms for educational purposes, I take the weapon, point it in a safe direction, clear the firearm, show the firearm is clear, and then demonstrate the proper way to handle a firearm before having the friend handle the firearm.

If I said something else during my interview, it was due to the stress I was under. An interview and determination is not due process.

In respect of this, I would ask that you please reconsider your order to surrender my CCW permit.
As an instructor, you should have known it is illegal to expose a firearm in public. Pulling a firearm out in public just isn't a smart move. Now if you were not out in public and inside a building, then you were good to go. And why would you as an instructor show people your firearm or train them out in the public. I just don't understand that.
  #80  
Old 08-01-2014, 2:52 PM
44fred 44fred is offline
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I think there is a serious disconnect here.
I really hope the OP sees what is going on.

A NRA Instructor does not a CCW Instructor make.
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"My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government."

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-- Thomas Jefferson
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