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Calguns LEOs LEOs; chat, kibitz and relax. Non-LEOs; have a questions for a cop? Ask it here, in a CIVIL manner. |
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#161
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Note, also, that I've run private-event security/etc. for over 20 years, and generally have a _very_ good relationship with local PD (assorted jurisdictions in Santa Clara County). So I understand many of the issues you're dealing with, and why "people will never be happy with the job we do". BTDT. But I try to be scrupulous with my guys (and gals) about making sure we don't go overboard... and I expect the same from _every_ PD (and FD - we have to handle medical calls as well) that I deal with. 99% of the time, everybody's professional, and it all works out really well. Every once in a while I run into someone with a tinpot dictator streak. If they're one of mine, we clean 'em up, or we turn 'em out. If they're PD, I have no compunctions about reporting 'em. But they've got the uniform, and they _always_ get the benefit of the doubt. Allow me to illustrate the above, further: what legitimate law-enforcement function is served by a singleton officer in a patrol car using a carpool lane, during carpool hours, to RTB so he can clock out to go home? Esp. when he's going counter-commute, and the trip-time savings is < 1 minute? Because I can't think of one. Or when an officer runs a "no right on red" light, so he can hustle up to the next light...which is red, where he's stuck behind 5 other cars. It all leaves the impression that as far as cops are concerned, the law doesn't really matter after all, except when feet are held to the fire. And yet I know most cops are good cops, who abhor this kind of thing. |
#162
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however, they're not that sort of old school at all. the real apology called for is from them, or from their supervisors or departments, and it should be accompanied with discipinary action or retraining. it should not be tolerated, or so comonplace that 5 LEOs on the same arrest feel quite comfortable that no one in the group on site is going to call out the prevarications of the others. that speaks to a culture which accepts the prevarication, sees it as justified or normal. so far, no apologies coming from them. you are not the one who wronged us, so, much as it is appreciated and understood, your apology can't set it right. It's nice to hear that those of you posting are upstanding and honorable, and wouldn't do this or tollerate this sort of thing in those you supervise. if there were some way to know one of you would be there should we have another situation, I'd feel a lot more confident of fair and reasonable treatment than I do. I don't have a way to quantify it outside my own experience, but my odds appear to be much better of fair treatment here than in the field. sadly, that's not where incidents occur. so unless you old school types are taking the not-so-old-school officers out behind the wood shed when they behave badly, I don't know why this would change. I don't know that there's any more to be gained by hashing this further, I have a pretty clear picture of the subject at hand. I do appreciate the candor several LEOs have shown. and your offer of apology is noted and understood. guess I'd have no need of it had you been there. megan
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"There is danger from all men. The only maxim of a free government ought to be to trust no man living with power to endanger the public liberty." - John Adams "To maintain the ascendancy of the Constitution over the lawmaking majority is the great and essential point on which the success of the system must depend;" - John C Calhoun "If you don't have a gun, freedom of speech has no power." - Yoshimi Ishikawa |
#163
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#164
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Yes. At this point I would have to say, "Objection your honor. The question has been asked and answered."
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#165
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Apparently the use of 1st amendment rights to say F Off are enough reason to be detained. I've never disagreed with you on the legal right to look further IF there is a reason to. I definitely disagree with you on the legality of turning it into a detention because someone walks away from you when you ask them a question or tells you to F Off when you ask them What's In The Case. You said something along the lines of "If they told me to F Off and walked away they'd be looking at the business end of my Sig." Absolutely a detention, based on NO PC. Hehe, I agree that this thread has kind of petered out though. I wish my last post had been addressed some, but I've got a feeling it wouldn't get anywhere anyway. |
#166
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Read my comment again...I said nothing about "walked away" and the F Off was only part of the issue.
Telling a cop to F Off is not, in itself, grounds for detention. That, combined with other actions and the presence of a firearm case (as was explained in the initial post) can provide reasonable suspicion. PC is not needed to detain. This is why I get frustrated. My words get manipulated by others so that a straw-man argument can be initiated. Let's all be intellectually honest and argue what is actually said as opposed to assumptions of facts not in evidence. I said I was done and I should probably keep my mouth shut but I'm getting tired of people twisting my words. |
#167
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If you look a little higher in the post, I stated that I would detain if the person "takes off"....While I may not have made myself perfectly clear in that statement, I feel the statement quoted below makes it very clear that I did not intend the words "takes off" to mean walks away. In fact, I can't figure out how you would interpret that out of my post. |
#168
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So, which other actions are you speaking of?
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#170
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I'll see if I can tease out an understanding from your other posts. |
#171
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The action SoCalDep is speaking of is, me riding a bicycle.
I have what is very clearly a rifle case. He stops and says "hey hows it going, hey what do you have in that case?" I tell him to perform a lewd act on himself, and attempt to ride away. He suspects I may have a firearm in that case, couple that with a bad attitude and trying to avoid even talking to him....suspicious to say the least. In my situation, if a cop asks me what's in the case i'm gona tell him what it is. Flip on my recorder and see what happens. If I get run in for not breaking any laws believe me you will all hear about it. If i'm sent on my merry way, you'll hear abouit that as well. I understand that our constitutional rights are what make this country great, unfortunatlly they are being taken away for reasone of "public safety" and thats B.S. I also understand the job of a police officer/LEO and they want to see WTF your doing riding around with a gun. They most likely have a family and want to see them at the end of their shift. LEO's are trained to be in charge, control is job 1. They must be in control of all variables so things don't get out of hand. If they do, they maybe killed or have to kill. Neither of which is will end up well. Thats where the street smarts and experiance counts.
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There are 3 kinds of people in this world. The wise, learn from the mistakes of others. The smart, learn from their own mistakes. The others, well......they just never learn. "Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, Give Me Liberty, Or Give Me Death!" Patrick Henry. |
#172
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Guess what, some people dont like cops, and dont want to be near them. Some people have been screwed over by cops, and dont want to afford ANY cop that opportunity to do it again, so telling a cop to F off and hauling *** might not be as unreasonable as you would like to paint it as being. So, what other actions would result in you pulling your Sig? |
#175
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What if it was a motorcycle riding on the street with a rifle case, would you still initiate a vehicle stop? |
#176
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DL, insurance and registration are all fair game in any traffic stop. I'd be curious to see if 12031e would be a justifiable stop however. Aside from being blatantly against the constitution which officers are sworn to uphold, there are certain moving violations considered minor enough that a stop for that violation alone isn't justifiable. Since having a gun in of itself isn't a violation at all, I don't see how it is justified if a stop is necessary.
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