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  #1  
Old 11-17-2018, 4:25 AM
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Default Proof of Residency Alternatives

Does anyone know what would work as POR other than DMV registration and lease agreement?

So would a business license from the city work if the address and name matches my ID?
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Old 11-17-2018, 4:32 AM
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^^ NO read the regs on this. Why would your city business license have your home address Go buy a fishing license that puts money in the state coffers where it belongs. Phone bull, voter registration.
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Old 11-17-2018, 5:02 AM
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Even big 5 accepts fishing license. Where are you located? just write a up a lease then Not rocket science. Do you have a hunting license.? Utility bill. phone bill (not cellular.

Last edited by edgerly779; 11-17-2018 at 5:05 AM..
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Old 11-17-2018, 7:04 AM
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Not sure why they would take hunting and fishing licenses this is straight for the dealer section of the doj
Examples of documents that are NOT acceptable proof of residency:

Hunting or fishing license (these documents are not issued by the government).
Cellular phone bill.

When I asked about it at an audit some years ago I was told it was because they were issued by the retailer not the government
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Old 11-17-2018, 8:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OCArmory View Post
Not sure why they would take hunting and fishing licenses this is straight for the dealer section of the doj
Examples of documents that are NOT acceptable proof of residency:

Hunting or fishing license (these documents are not issued by the government).
Cellular phone bill.

When I asked about it at an audit some years ago I was told it was because they were issued by the retailer not the government
That's an interesting argument from them.

Perhaps it predates the existence of this web page: https://www.wildlife.ca.gov/Licensing/Online-Sales
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  #6  
Old 11-17-2018, 8:42 AM
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First off which requirement are you asking about, CA or Federal?

Most of what works for the Feds works for CA except for a CA ID/DL for handgun purchases.

A government document with dates when it is valid is acceptable. Such things as a Ham radio license, fire permit, vehicle registration all work. The hunting licenses are now issued by the state as I recall, so the CA info is out of date. Government utility bills also work.

CA also has it in the law that a lease works. In their example they say a notarized lease, but that isn't in the law and isn't normal.

To your question as to a business license with your name and home address, it should have dates when it is valid, it is also a government document, so it should be fine.

The problem is many don't think about what the requirements are and so they want only what they are used to.
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Old 11-17-2018, 8:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
That's an interesting argument from them.

Perhaps it predates the existence of this web page: https://www.wildlife.ca.gov/Licensing/Online-Sales
Yep. They saw what was said before and ignore changes.
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Old 11-17-2018, 8:47 AM
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Originally Posted by edgerly779 View Post
Even big 5 accepts fishing license. Where are you located? just write a up a lease then Not rocket science. Do you have a hunting license.? Utility bill. phone bill (not cellular.
Big 5 doesn't sell handguns. So I'm curious why the would be getting proof of residency.
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Old 11-17-2018, 8:53 AM
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Originally Posted by acespawnshop View Post
Big 5 doesn't sell handguns. So I'm curious why the would be getting proof of residency.
You mean if the current residence isn't on the CA ID/DL?

Then again, it could be their just being stupid and not understanding the law that it is only for handguns that there is a proof of residency requirement which the CA ID/DL isn't acceptable.

Something that was told to me which I didn't realize is that CA actually has no proof of residency requirement for long guns. The Feds do though.
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Old 11-17-2018, 9:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
You mean if the current residence isn't on the CA ID/DL?

Then again, it could be their just being stupid and not understanding the law that it is only for handguns that there is a proof of residency requirement which the CA ID/DL isn't acceptable.

Something that was told to me which I didn't realize is that CA actually has no proof of residency requirement for long guns. The Feds do though.
Actually, they kind of do. Since DROS is limited to CA DL/ID or Military orders.

In other states, a long gun purchase can occur to people in other states as long as the two states have to same requirements for legal purchase.
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Old 11-17-2018, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by taperxz View Post
Actually, they kind of do. Since DROS is limited to CA DL/ID or Military orders.

In other states, a long gun purchase can occur to people in other states as long as the two states have to same requirements for legal purchase.
I think that you are missing the point. There isn't any proof of residency requirements under CA law for long guns. While they need a CA ID/DL or military ID, CA doesn't require that it have their current residence. There are still Federal requirements, but you don't need anything for CA.
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  #12  
Old 11-17-2018, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Th4tNinja View Post
Well I was thinking of a business that operates out of my house (i.e. selling stuff online like ebay or amazon). So the business address would also be my home address. As for the fishing license and voter registration, my lgs wont accept those.
In summary - it doesn't matter what anyone in this thread tells you. You need to ask the LGS what they will take. We can all tell you what's legit, but if your LGS doesn't take it they don't take it.
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Old 11-17-2018, 1:48 PM
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Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
I think that you are missing the point. There isn't any proof of residency requirements under CA law for long guns. While they need a CA ID/DL or military ID, CA doesn't require that it have their current residence. There are still Federal requirements, but you don't need anything for CA.
Not really missing the point and i understood you. I was just pointing out that the CA residency for a long is established (as a CA resident only) via the DL/ID whereas no one from out of state can dros any gun in this state. Technicality
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Old 11-17-2018, 5:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OCArmory View Post
Not sure why they would take hunting and fishing licenses this is straight for the dealer section of the doj
Examples of documents that are NOT acceptable proof of residency:

Hunting or fishing license (these documents are not issued by the government).
Cellular phone bill.

When I asked about it at an audit some years ago I was told it was because they were issued by the retailer not the government



Quote:
Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
That's an interesting argument from them.

Perhaps it predates the existence of this web page: https://www.wildlife.ca.gov/Licensing/Online-Sales
Back in the 1960s and 70s. I went to the DFG Regional headquarters in Long Bch. To get H & F licenses, tags, stamps, etc. In the 1980s, 90s, and up into the new millinea. I went to the new DFW Regional headquarters in Los Alamitos. On Lampson Ave off of Seal Bch Blvd.

In 1997 I went to a regional HQ on Silverado Cnyn Rd, in IIRC Sonoma Cnty. License expired and I was working in Benecia.

So the "NOT ISSUED BY GOVERNMENT" BS is just that, BS.
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  #15  
Old 11-17-2018, 7:44 PM
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Is there any aspect of CA firearms laws that are not BS Pac?
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  #16  
Old 11-17-2018, 10:45 PM
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Originally Posted by taperxz View Post
Not really missing the point and i understood you. I was just pointing out that the CA residency for a long is established (as a CA resident only) via the DL/ID whereas no one from out of state can dros any gun in this state. Technicality
The CA ID/DL might not have their current residence address, which means it wouldn't establish residency. There are people who don't live in CA, but have a CA ID/DL, which means they have the means to submit a DROS.
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  #17  
Old 11-18-2018, 3:18 PM
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Originally Posted by acespawnshop View Post
Is there any aspect of CA firearms laws that are not BS Pac?

Quote:
DROS was implemented by AB 263-Hawes, introduced in 1923 and effective August 7, 1924.
NOPE
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  #18  
Old 11-18-2018, 4:21 PM
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Originally Posted by acespawnshop View Post
Is there any aspect of CA firearms laws that are not BS Pac?
I'd say PC12022.5 and .53 once had promise - those are the 'use a gun, go to jail' sentence enhancements.

But it strikes me 12022.53(h) has been abused -
Quote:
(h) The court may, in the interest of justice pursuant to Section 1385 and at the time of sentencing, strike or dismiss an enhancement otherwise required to be imposed by this section. The authority provided by this subdivision applies to any resentencing that may occur pursuant to any other law.
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  #19  
Old 11-18-2018, 4:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
But it strikes me 12022.53(h) has been abused -

Subdivision (h) became effective January 1, 2018. Before that date, a PC12022.53 enhancement could not be dismissed by a judge. I’m curious as how you know that a judge has abused this discretionary power in the past year.
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Old 11-18-2018, 6:03 PM
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Originally Posted by ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ View Post
Subdivision (h) became effective January 1, 2018. Before that date, a PC12022.53 enhancement could not be dismissed by a judge. I’m curious as how you know that a judge has abused this discretionary power in the past year.
I don't - I didn't notice the effective date on that sub-section, so thanks for the info.

But I'm not aware of a lot of gun-using-criminals, convicted of a listed crime, sitting in the time-out chair for overtime. I would be grateful for a pointer to sentencing data which may make me better informed.
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Old 11-18-2018, 8:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Th4tNinja View Post
Does anyone know what would work as POR other than DMV registration and lease agreement?

So would a business license from the city work if the address and name matches my ID?
Are you asking for compliance with ATF or asking for compliance with CA's laws?

A lease has never worked for ATF.
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  #22  
Old 11-19-2018, 1:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Th4tNinja View Post
Oh I forgot to mention that I looking to buy a handgun. I have been to a lgs and they told me to get some sort of "Government issued permits or licenses". So I'm just wondering if anyone has any idea what else would work.
What actually works and what the FFL you are using can be two very different things.

If your CA ID/DL has your current residence address, then that covers the Federal requirement.

CA doesn't accept your CA ID/DL for proof of residency for handguns, even though for a Real ID you have to prove your residence address and CA doesn't require that the proof be a government document.

https://oag.ca.gov/firearms/dlrfaqs#14G

Please note that the examples don't strictly follow the law as a lease isn't actually required to be notarized. If you read the part above where it is mentioned, there is no mention of that it has to be notarized.

Quote:
14. What documentation is acceptable proof of residency for handgun purchasers?

A. Utility bill from within the past three months that bears on its face the individual's name and either of the following:
1. The individual's current residential address as declared on the DROS form; or
2. The individual's residential address as it appears on his or her California Driver License or California Identification Card, or change of address attachment thereto.

"Utility bill" means a statement of charges for providing service to the individual's residence by either a physical connection (i.e., hard wired Internet, telephone connection or cable connection, or a water or gas pipeline connection) or a telemetric connection (i.e., satellite television or radio broadcast service) to a non-mobile, fixed antenna reception device.
B. Residential lease that bears the individual's name and either of the following:
1. The individual's current residential address as declared on the DROS form; or
2. The individual's address as it appears on his or her California Driver License or California Identification Card, or change of address attachment thereto.
"Residential lease" means either of the following:
a. A signed and dated contract by which the individual (tenant) agrees to pay a specified monetary sum or provide other consideration for the right to occupy an abode for a specified period of time; or
b. A signed and dated rental agreement by which the individual (tenant) agrees to pay a specified monetary sum or provide other consideration at fixed intervals for the right to occupy an abode.
C. Property deed that bears the individual's name and either of the following:
1. The individual's current residential address as declared on the DROS form; or
2. The individual's address as it appears on his or her California Driver License or California Identification Card, or change of address attachment thereto.
"Property deed" means either or the following:
a. A valid deed of trust for the individual's property of current residence that identifies the individual as a grantee of the trust; or
b. A valid Certificate of Title issued by a licensed title insurance company that identifies the individual as a title holder to his or her property of current residence.
D. Current, government-issued license, permit, or registration, other than a California Driver License or California Identification Card, that has a specified expiration date or period of validity. The license, permit, or registration must bear the individual's name and either of the following:
1. The individual's current residential address as declared on the DROS form; or
2. The individual's address as it appears on his or her California Driver License, California Identification Card, or change of address attachment thereto.

Examples of acceptable proof of residency:
Current DMV registrations.
Electricity, gas, cable bill with purchaser's name on it from within the last 3 months.
Signed, dated and notarized rental agreement/contract.

Examples of documents that are NOT acceptable proof of residency:
Hunting or fishing license (these documents are not issued by the government).
Cellular phone bill.
Also, hunting licenses are issued by the government now.
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Last edited by kemasa; 11-19-2018 at 1:38 PM..
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  #23  
Old 11-19-2018, 1:58 PM
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And fishings licenses they tied directly to d/l or ca id thru internet/terminal.
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Old 11-19-2018, 4:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
I don't - I didn't notice the effective date on that sub-section, so thanks for the info.

But I'm not aware of a lot of gun-using-criminals, convicted of a listed crime, sitting in the time-out chair for overtime. I would be grateful for a pointer to sentencing data which may make me better informed.
California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitations has an Office of Research, which publishes population reports, including characteristics of the people who are guests of CDCR, such as what crimes they have committed. It's on CDCR's website.

California sentencing is very complicated. I took an entire semester-long class devoted to just California sentencing law. A PC12022.5 enhancement adds 3, 4, or 10 years to a sentence. If a prosecutor charged a a PC12022.53 enhancement, 10 years is added for the use of a gun, 20 years is added for the discharge of a gun, or a life term results for death or great bodily injury from the discharge of a gun. Before 2018, if a prosecutor charged a PC12022 or a PC12022.53 enhancement, the enhanced sentence must be imposed by the judge. The judge had no discretion to ignore or say it wasn't in the interests of justice, but had to impose it. A defense attorney could not ask a judge to not impose it. A prosecutor could choose to bargain away the enhancement in a plea bargain, but that is the nature of a plea bargain. What incentive is there to avoid trial, if the result is going to be same pleading guilty before trial or being found guilty after trial?

As for the actual topic of this thread, which is proof of residency...
Penal Code section 26845 says:
(a) No handgun may be delivered unless the purchaser, transferee, or person being loaned the firearm presents documentation indicating that the person is a California resident.

(b) Satisfactory documentation shall include a utility bill from within the last three months, a residential lease, a property deed, or military permanent duty station orders indicating assignment within this state, or other evidence of residency as permitted by the Department of Justice.

(c) The firearms dealer shall retain a photocopy of the documentation as proof of compliance with this requirement.
The regulations by the Department of Justice are found in 11 CCR 4045:
The following definitions and requirements apply to documents intended to serve as evidence of residency for the acquisition of a handgun pursuant to Penal Code section 26845:
a.1. “Utility bill” means a statement of charges for providing direct service to the individual's residence by either a physical connection (i.e., hard wired telephone or cable connection, or a water or gas pipeline connection), or a telemetric connection (i.e., satellite television or radio broadcast service) to a non-mobile, fixed antenna reception device.
2. The utility bill statement date must be within three months of the current date.
3. The utility bill must bear on its face the individual's name and either of the following:
A. The individual's current residential address as declared on the Dealer's Record of Sale (DROS) form.
B. The individual's residential address as it appears on his or her California Driver License or California Identification Card, or change of address attachment thereto.
b.1. “Residential lease” means either of the following:
A. A signed and dated contract by which the individual (tenant) agrees to pay a specified monetary sum or provide other consideration for the right to occupy an abode for a specified period of time.
B. A signed and dated rental agreement by which the individual (tenant) agrees to pay a specified monetary sum or provide other consideration at fixed intervals for the right to occupy an abode.
2. The residential lease must bear the individual's name and either of the following:
A. The individual's current residential address as declared on the DROS form.
B. The individual's address as it appears on his or her California Driver License or California Identification Card, or change of address attachment thereto.
c.1. “Property deed” means either of the following:
A. A valid deed of trust for the individual's property of current residence that identifies the individual as a grantee of the trust.
B. A valid Certificate of Title issued by a licensed title insurance company that identifies the individual as a title holder to his or her property of current residence.
2. The property deed must bear the individual's name and either of the following:
A. The individual's current residential address as declared on the DROS form.
B. The individual's address as it appears on his or her California Driver License or California Identification Card, or change of address attachment thereto.
d. “Other evidence of residency as permitted by the Department of Justice” means either of the following:
1. A current, government-issued (city, county, special district, state, or federal) license, permit, or registration, other than a California Driver License or California Identification Card, that has a specified expiration date or period of validity. The license, permit, or registration must bear the individual's name and either of the following:
A. The individual's current residential address as declared on the DROS form.
B. The individual's address as it appears on his or her California Driver License or California Identification Card, or change of address attachment thereto.
2. A valid peace officer credential issued by a California law enforcement agency to an active, reserve, or retired peace officer.
But as others have pointed out already, it's what the guy at the counter says, not necessarily what the law is, even if that may be a misdemeanor under PC28250(a)(4). I have encountered poorly trained gunstore employees who insist that the utility bill must be from a government entity such as the LA Department of Water and Power. I have had gun store employees refuse me to give me a copy of the approved DROS in violation of PC28215(e). What am I going to do? Rat people out to DOJ?
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