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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel. |
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Newbies' Guide® For Making an AR/AK Pistol and Staying Legal + Reg Instructions
There is a lot of interest in AR and AK pistols. Contrary to what some might think, they can be legally acquired in California. You just need to jump through some serious hoops.
WHAT FOLLOWS IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE. YOU CAN ONLY GET LEGAL ADVICE FROM YOUR LAWYER, AND I AM NOT YOUR LAWYER. That being said, here is how to get an AR / AK pistol in California. . . 1) You must start from either a DEDICATED pistol receiver or an 80 percent receiver. Whatever you do, NEVER ever build a pistol from a rifle receiver. 2) You can get a 100 percent pistol receiver by PPTing it from a LEO or someone who got one from a LEO. You can't just order one from out of state (or in state), since bare pistol receivers don't meet California's "safe handgun" laws. 3) When you build the pistol, you must be aware of ATF "constructive possession" issues. For example, having a short AR barrel and a bunch of unbuilt AR rifle receivers laying around is not a good idea. The general rule is to NEVER have the components for making an SBR in your custody or control. Unless, of course, you have a tax stamp from the ATF that allows you to possess a SBR! Even then, it would only apply to that specific SBR. So see above. 4) With respect to AK pistols (I am not an expert on building AR pistols), you MUST use a pistol trunnion for the rear trunnion. Using a rifle trunnion opens you up to constructive possession of an SBR, even if you do not affix a rifle buttstock to the pistol. I guess you could somehow weld up a rifle trunnion to not accept a stock, but it's easier to just buy one. 5) When you BUILD the pistol, it must be built as a single shot pistol. This is how you avoid the unsafe handgun laws (they don't apply to single shot pistols over a certain size). Quote:
7) AR and AK pistols MUST have a fixed magazine (such as a BB) and must hold no more than 10 rounds in the mag. Quote:
//////////// WHAT FOLLOWS IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE. YOU CAN ONLY GET LEGAL ADVICE FROM YOUR LAWYER, AND I AM NOT YOUR LAWYER. Now, you have a pistol. What is the next step? There is SOME thought that there might be certain advantages to "voluntarily" registering your pistol. I can't go in to the details just yet. There are drawbacks as well. One drawback is that the DOJ might just decide to come knocking on your door. IF you want to "register" your pistol, here is how to do it. Please remember that I am NOT YOUR LAWYER, and I disclaim any liability if anything bad happens to you!!! Note that registration does not mean that you can unfix the magazine. It just means that you are in the DOJ's computer system, and this MIGHT give you certain advantages dealing with LEOs. That being said, go to http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/volreg.pdf and fill out the application online and print it. Here is how to fill it out: Put "semi-auto" for the type of handgun. EDIT: I put "semi-auto" on mine, but Bill has suggested putting "single shot." The "Make" can be anything you want, as I will explain later. The "Model" can be anything you want (just don't duplicate a banned model). My AK pistol is a "Model K." The caliber is 5.56 or 7.62 (or 5.45). Note that they are not asking for the cartridge size. The "Origin" is U.S. or United States. Where is says "Acquired From" put "other" then write in "Self Built." The make, model and serial number should be stamped or etched on the receiver. The markings must be at least .005 deep to match federal requirements. I know there are some 07's and SOT's on the board, and they may suggest other things that you may put on the gun as well. What I'm talking about is the bare minimum to allow you to truthfully fill out the volreg form. I am not referring to what 07's must put on firearms (like location where made). Once you have filled out the form and sent your $19 check to the DOJ, be prepared to wait about 3 months to hear from them. If you DON'T hear from them, call this person: Shannon at 916-227-3680. Be nice to her, as she is the person that actually enters YOUR data into their database. She will probably want to know the "make" of your pistol and will tell you that "Joe Smith Armory" is not in their database. That is fine. What you should tell her is that you built the pistol from a kit, and that YOU are the "make." Then *very nicely* ask her to enter "Made in the USA" as the make. That is what they use when they don't have a make in their database. Shannon is not concerned about the fact that your pistol is single shot, that it has a mag-lock, or that it is based on the Stoner or Kalish design. She is not concerned about Calguns. So don't waste her time with that information. All she needs to do her job is the information that you provided on the form, and your respectful request to use "Made in the USA" as the make. The main thing is to be nice to Shannon. She is a nice woman, so you should be nice to her. Talk ONLY to Shannon. Do not talk to anyone else. Whatever you do, DO NOT talk to the following people: Brent George Dana McKinnon Brent George is under the impression that an 80 percent receiver can never be bent into a pistol receiver. He gave me a line of crap about that until he realized that I was a lawyer. Then he clammed up, and refused to document his statements in an email. Here is his email: Quote:
He tried to tell me that AK and AR pistols were illegal because they were "series" weapons. He got quiet after I cited Harrot to him. Now I've basically given you guys some real inside information. Eventually the DOJ will see this post and try and shut down pistol registration for AK's and AR's. If they do that, they will get hit with another petition to the OAL, since any attempt to do that would be an underground regulation. It's also possible that Shannon might get some instructions around these registrations. If you get ANY pushback from Shannon, please realize that it is not her. Please let me know, and I will take the appropriate action (such as calling her boss to find out what's up). Although PERFECTLY LEGAL to the letter of the law, AK and AR pistols are a new thing. And it has not been determined how the DOJ will react when they find out that hundreds of California citizens are building them. EDIT: please remember that this whole pistol registration tactic is in "beta" right now. I can't predict how the DOJ will react to getting a bunch of these. So this endeavor is most appropriate for those Calgunners who are not risk adverse, and/or have ready access to an attorney. Last edited by oaklander; 08-25-2008 at 8:45 PM.. |
#2
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I'm going to go public w/ a kickass way to permanently document your build as a single shot . . . in about a week maybe, stay tuned
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I hate people that are full of hate. It's not illegal to tip for PPT! |
#3
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Is it that new-fangled device known as a camera?
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#6
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Nope, much more tangible than images or video. Much better to CYA. You will probably want one yourself
__________________
I hate people that are full of hate. It's not illegal to tip for PPT! |
#8
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"You did not identify yourself as an attorney when asking the Bureau of Firearms for information. Unfortunately, all specific inquiries from attorneys must be submitted to the Department of Justice Public Inquiry Unit. You may contact the Public Inquiry Unit at (916) 324 - 5500 for further assistance. Bear in mind that the Bureau of Firearms cannot offer you legal advice, legal opinions, or legal interpretations."
So...this is the DOJ's policy. If you are not an attorney, they can spread FUD to the little people. I wonder if Jerry Brown is aware of these cowboys spreading lies? |
#9
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LOL, yes right after that happened, I got to thinking "do I have to identify myself as an attorney every time I make a phone call to anyone?"
"I'd like to make dinner reservations, but you must know that I'm an attorney." The reason that I didn't identify myself as an attorney was that I was calling for MYSELF. If this rule was true, and I doubt it is, then it means there's a whole class of people in California, who are forbid by policy, from talking with anyone at the DOJ (except to the PIU). Quote:
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#11
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Big question, seeings how you mentioned 5.45 pistols:
I was under the impression (vaguely) that nobody makes (or at least doesn't advertise the fact that they have made) a 5.45 pistol due to the federal law issues regarding pistols and imported steel core ammo. I do not believe that there is anything illegal about making a 5.45 pistol, but if a lot of people in Cali register 5.45 pistols, then are we risking the ATF then saying that its a pistol caliber and people can't import the surplus ammo anymore? If I am wrong, school me.
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WTB: SWISS & German police trade in pistols WTB: German made & proofed SIG P226R & P228R WTB: Factory cutaway pistols & rifles WTB: LAPD Ithaca M37 / CHP S&W / Other PD trade ins.... |
#12
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Quote:
If however the 5.45 ammo were regarded as functionally/structurally equivalent to M855 5.56 ammo then things may be OK though.
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Bill Wiese San Jose, CA CGF Board Member / NRA Benefactor Life Member / CRPA life member
No postings of mine here, unless otherwise specifically noted, are to be construed as formal or informal positions of the Calguns.Net ownership, The Calguns Foundation, Inc. ("CGF"), the NRA, or my employer. No posts of mine on Calguns are to be construed as legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer. |
#13
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Can a pistol caliber be registered as "multi"?
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WTB: SWISS & German police trade in pistols WTB: German made & proofed SIG P226R & P228R WTB: Factory cutaway pistols & rifles WTB: LAPD Ithaca M37 / CHP S&W / Other PD trade ins.... |
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This is going to get interesting.
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#15
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In theory it should. If they won't, register it in its original/primary caliber.
The "multi"/"8888" caliber designator was for SB23 AW registrations in 2000. (It was supplementary identifying info not required by law.) There's no law banning changes of calibers - must be tons of 357/40 conversion out there, 10mm or 22LRs on 45ACPs, 9mm cylinders for 38/357 revolvers, etc.
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Bill Wiese San Jose, CA CGF Board Member / NRA Benefactor Life Member / CRPA life member
No postings of mine here, unless otherwise specifically noted, are to be construed as formal or informal positions of the Calguns.Net ownership, The Calguns Foundation, Inc. ("CGF"), the NRA, or my employer. No posts of mine on Calguns are to be construed as legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer. |
#16
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Or register it as a Caliber .215?
Same thing, less obvious?
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WTB: SWISS & German police trade in pistols WTB: German made & proofed SIG P226R & P228R WTB: Factory cutaway pistols & rifles WTB: LAPD Ithaca M37 / CHP S&W / Other PD trade ins.... |
#17
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Before "safety" laws when you COULD buy a bare receiver, what did they put for caliber then? |
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all the best, Mike |
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#20
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Oak, I'd register it as an SSP. Any semiauto conversion can come after reg submitted/received.
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Bill Wiese San Jose, CA CGF Board Member / NRA Benefactor Life Member / CRPA life member
No postings of mine here, unless otherwise specifically noted, are to be construed as formal or informal positions of the Calguns.Net ownership, The Calguns Foundation, Inc. ("CGF"), the NRA, or my employer. No posts of mine on Calguns are to be construed as legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer. |
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__________________
I hate people that are full of hate. It's not illegal to tip for PPT! |
#24
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Right, I'm just trying to understand where the problem is with home-builts in the DOJ registration process that can be fixed with a phone call. Is it a "Just don't register it until he complains" passive-aggressive thing?
I have done voluntary regs on normal pistols in the past and it is straightforward. |
#25
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DOJ doesn't appear to have the ability to add new manufacturers to their registration database.
-Gene
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Gene Hoffman Chairman, California Gun Rights Foundation DONATE NOW to support the rights of California gun owners. Follow @cgfgunrights on Twitter. Opinions posted in this account are my own and not the approved position of any organization. I read PMs. But, if you need a response, include an email address or email me directly! "The problem with being a gun rights supporter is that the left hates guns and the right hates rights." -Anon
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#28
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Yes, if you got them via a FFL then this does not apply.
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#29
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Is it even worth having it registered under the "wrong" manufacturer? If somebody ran the numbers would they say "Nope, not registered" since the manufacturer is not what is on the gun?
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#30
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there is no magazine detachment/capacity restrictions on pump action pistols, straight pull bolt action pistols or other manually operated types. If you can figrue out how to run a lever action ar15, then you can do it with detachable mags. Thanks for getting this out in the open oaklander. you're a credit to the community. |
#31
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Add something concerning threaded barrels/flash hiders/other attachments - Legal with fixed mag? Permanent attachment? ect.
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Artist formally known as CEO of Tracy Rifle and Pistol |
#32
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Thanks AJAX!
Good points, and yes - I do really enjoy sharing information like this!!! Quote:
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#33
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Here's the code. Just don't install a forward grip - that violates Federal law unless you have a tax stamp.
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#34
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So, if I purchased this yugo m82, have it's gas piston removed out of state, then shipped into the state as a single shot, same thing? DROS takes care of the registration?
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Please note that others have used this screen name on non-gun related sites, and I am not related to them in any way. |
#35
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Proud California Gun Owner
Since 2005 |
#36
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Damn, I'm seeing misconceptions about single-shot status. A piston-removed gun is not a friggin' single shot, dammit! Getting a pistol out of AW status is not the same as making it an exempt single-shot pistol. YOU HAVE TO DO BOTH, otherwise you're just choosing the way you wanna get screwed. To be clearly 12133PC "Roster-exempt" via single-shot pistol status:
__________________
Bill Wiese San Jose, CA CGF Board Member / NRA Benefactor Life Member / CRPA life member
No postings of mine here, unless otherwise specifically noted, are to be construed as formal or informal positions of the Calguns.Net ownership, The Calguns Foundation, Inc. ("CGF"), the NRA, or my employer. No posts of mine on Calguns are to be construed as legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer. |
#37
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__________________
Please note that others have used this screen name on non-gun related sites, and I am not related to them in any way. |
#39
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A fixed magazine firearm with fixed mag in place and/or BB installed does not have capacity to accept a detachable magazine - remember, 'detachable magazine' is defined in 11 CCR 5469(a).
__________________
Bill Wiese San Jose, CA CGF Board Member / NRA Benefactor Life Member / CRPA life member
No postings of mine here, unless otherwise specifically noted, are to be construed as formal or informal positions of the Calguns.Net ownership, The Calguns Foundation, Inc. ("CGF"), the NRA, or my employer. No posts of mine on Calguns are to be construed as legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer. |
#40
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But hey, I'm from Kansas.. we look at things a little differently.
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When the people find they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic. -- Benjamin Franklin Last edited by TheDM; 08-13-2008 at 6:57 PM.. |
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