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Centerfire Rifles - Manually Operated Lever action, bolt action or other non gas operated centerfire rifles.

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  #161  
Old 07-20-2015, 10:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Standish View Post
The mag system alone is enough to make me happy to see in a big production company. Sick of the Wyatt, the hs precision, aics, proprietary mags only. It's a great step towards making the market more broad. I guess that's more where I was going with that.
I thought things were pretty standardized on the magazine front… Generally the more popular or sought-after DBM systems were all based around AICS mags, if anything I've felt its been a standard for quite some time... I was actually happy to hear Ruger is compatible with them.

Unless I am mistaken they also offer the longest COAL for a mag fed rifle which is also something to think about if you do reload, but I don't think it really matters for those who buy factory ammo.

That said I hate buying mags, I feel it’s a money pit when having to buy something proprietary or something that only works with one platform so it is pretty dang cool you have options that all work…
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  #162  
Old 07-20-2015, 11:18 PM
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Default Ruger Precision Rifle

These will be great for the precision rifle sport as you have a $1000 throw away option now.
The gun is cheap enough that people can buy it and start shooting with no upgrades needed.
The whole gun is all proprietary and there are no upgrades/options so if you want something different, you just build a real gun.
Let's not forget that this is still a factory mass produced barrel and action.
It won't stand up in quality comparisons to fully custom built rifles, but at the price point, it does not need to either.
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  #163  
Old 07-20-2015, 11:25 PM
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Originally Posted by jbj View Post
As for precision, the benchrest crowd does remarkably well using Savage guns

Please post a link to the match results of sanctioned BR state, regional or national matches where these savage (or other) barrel nut attached barrels have won or set records.

All the BR guns I have seen in actual competitions used conventionally fitted barrels as the barrel nut limits the diameter of the barrel so much.
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  #164  
Old 07-20-2015, 11:49 PM
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Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
Let's not forget that this is still a factory mass produced barrel and action.
It won't stand up in quality comparisons to fully custom built rifles, but at the price point, it does not need to either.
Randall, this is my concern as to my knowledge guns will be fit for user defined dimensions with the best tolerances reasonably attained.

Could you help explain the question I had in post 160. I am not familiar with the barrel nut type guns swap procedure. I understand how you can install a new barrel to get it to a headspace that will work using a gauge. My question was at the method of exact repeatability of chamber dimensions when you swap barrels and put the old one back on. How do you do so in a manner so that you return to precise chamber dimensions that you had prior to taking off the barrel you had previously fit.

To my way of thinking, this is accomplished by having the barrel fully engaged (i.e. torqued back in full). With the nut configurations, as I understand, you are screwing it back to a certain dimension, then tightening the nut to make sure it doesn't move. How do you get it to the precise dimensions you had before by screwing in the barrel without having it fully engage. The "barrel swap" concept is gaining a lot of traction, but to me, it isn't a "barrel swap" configuration if the barrel does not return to the precise position for your chamber to be at the identical specifications where you had it set.

I know some folks will say that you have a vested interest in fitting barrels (which you do), but you are also more mechanically inclined than most so I think it will be beneficial to explain how to get an identical chamber after you have taken and removed the barrel. It seems like it would be a difficult process and very hard to measure. This is probably a dumb question, but I haven't gotten a direct answer from those that use barrel nuts.
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  #165  
Old 07-21-2015, 5:58 AM
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Originally Posted by JMP View Post
Randall, this is my concern as to my knowledge guns will be fit for user defined dimensions with the best tolerances reasonably attained.

Could you help explain the question I had in post 160. I am not familiar with the barrel nut type guns swap procedure. I understand how you can install a new barrel to get it to a headspace that will work using a gauge. My question was at the method of exact repeatability of chamber dimensions when you swap barrels and put the old one back on. How do you do so in a manner so that you return to precise chamber dimensions that you had prior to taking off the barrel you had previously fit.

To my way of thinking, this is accomplished by having the barrel fully engaged (i.e. torqued back in full). With the nut configurations, as I understand, you are screwing it back to a certain dimension, then tightening the nut to make sure it doesn't move. How do you get it to the precise dimensions you had before by screwing in the barrel without having it fully engage. The "barrel swap" concept is gaining a lot of traction, but to me, it isn't a "barrel swap" configuration if the barrel does not return to the precise position for your chamber to be at the identical specifications where you had it set.

I know some folks will say that you have a vested interest in fitting barrels (which you do), but you are also more mechanically inclined than most so I think it will be beneficial to explain how to get an identical chamber after you have taken and removed the barrel. It seems like it would be a difficult process and very hard to measure. This is probably a dumb question, but I haven't gotten a direct answer from those that use barrel nuts.
Frankly, most of this stuff is academic and esoteric to the point of irrelevance for 99% of shooters out there, even the ones that participate in PRS-type competitions. Yes, if you're shooting benchrest or some other type of competition that requires pure mechanical accuracy, then by all means turn your meplats, weigh and sort your brass, measure every powder throw to 0.05 grains, load your bullets just off the lands, have your chambers custom cut for your best handloads, etc. But in the comps in which the RPR will most likely participate, variables like shooting from odd, uncomfortable positions, controlling your breath after a 50 yard run, holding for wind, punching through mirage, and leading movers will completely swamp out stuff like whether all your once-fired Lapua brass has perfectly concentric necks.

I'm not saying having a mechanical system with extreme accuracy is a bad thing. Far from it. I'm just saying that taking advantage of that type of accuracy is the final step in a long, long line of steps, most of which the vast majority of shooters will never take. If the RPR gets shooters excited to go do some distance shooting or participate in comps, everyone wins!
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  #166  
Old 07-21-2015, 6:01 AM
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Originally Posted by ExtremeX View Post
I thought things were pretty standardized on the magazine front… Generally the more popular or sought-after DBM systems were all based around AICS mags, if anything I've felt its been a standard for quite some time... I was actually happy to hear Ruger is compatible with them.

Unless I am mistaken they also offer the longest COAL for a mag fed rifle which is also something to think about if you do reload, but I don't think it really matters for those who buy factory ammo.

That said I hate buying mags, I feel it’s a money pit when having to buy something proprietary or something that only works with one platform so it is pretty dang cool you have options that all work…
You're being too picky on what I said, as at the end you ultimately agree with it.

My point is, for many guns, you have to put a "desired DBM" on it. This costs minimum of $130+~$75 install fee for a PTG system towards $330+ fitment fee for something like a badger. That or you buy a rifle like an AI which obviously is much more expensive(and we get it, it's a more quality rifle)

So basically $200-400 more to get aics compatable DBM. That's 1/5-2/5 of the cost of this rifle alone and it can accept an even more broad spectrum of mags, including the standard of precision a mags; the aics mag. Better?
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  #167  
Old 07-21-2015, 6:57 AM
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Originally Posted by caponord View Post
Frankly, most of this stuff is academic and esoteric to the point of irrelevance for 99% of shooters out there, even the ones that participate in PRS-type competitions. Yes, if you're shooting benchrest or some other type of competition that requires pure mechanical accuracy, then by all means turn your meplats, weigh and sort your brass, measure every powder throw to 0.05 grains, load your bullets just off the lands, have your chambers custom cut for your best handloads, etc. But in the comps in which the RPR will most likely participate, variables like shooting from odd, uncomfortable positions, controlling your breath after a 50 yard run, holding for wind, punching through mirage, and leading movers will completely swamp out stuff like whether all your once-fired Lapua brass has perfectly concentric necks.

I'm not saying having a mechanical system with extreme accuracy is a bad thing. Far from it. I'm just saying that taking advantage of that type of accuracy is the final step in a long, long line of steps, most of which the vast majority of shooters will never take. If the RPR gets shooters excited to go do some distance shooting or participate in comps, everyone wins!
when you start a discussion about a "precision" rifle it opens the door to this kind of debate.
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  #168  
Old 07-21-2015, 7:16 AM
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Originally Posted by caponord View Post
Frankly, most of this stuff is academic and esoteric to the point of irrelevance for 99% of shooters out there, even the ones that participate in PRS-type competitions. Yes, if you're shooting benchrest or some other type of competition that requires pure mechanical accuracy, then by all means turn your meplats, weigh and sort your brass, measure every powder throw to 0.05 grains, load your bullets just off the lands, have your chambers custom cut for your best handloads, etc. But in the comps in which the RPR will most likely participate, variables like shooting from odd, uncomfortable positions, controlling your breath after a 50 yard run, holding for wind, punching through mirage, and leading movers will completely swamp out stuff like whether all your once-fired Lapua brass has perfectly concentric necks.

I'm not saying having a mechanical system with extreme accuracy is a bad thing. Far from it. I'm just saying that taking advantage of that type of accuracy is the final step in a long, long line of steps, most of which the vast majority of shooters will never take. If the RPR gets shooters excited to go do some distance shooting or participate in comps, everyone wins!
I'm not saying it's too complicated, but what you said is exactly my point when I sort of butt heads when people get so hung up on stuff like the fact that it is a factory barrel.

As we were talking about in the Rem 700 AAC thread, I have a stock barreled M700 that can hold sub 1/2 MOA at 700 yards with factory BHA match ammo. That is plenty of gun for 99% of shooters. I am pretty confident that the Ruger will hold sub MOA at these ranges with good ammo and quality optics. If someone wants to do ELR, sure they would be better served with another barrel. But, you get the point.
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  #169  
Old 07-21-2015, 7:47 AM
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Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
Please post a link to the match results of sanctioned BR state, regional or national matches where these savage (or other) barrel nut attached barrels have won or set records.

All the BR guns I have seen in actual competitions used conventionally fitted barrels as the barrel nut limits the diameter of the barrel so much.

Sorry Randall, you are correct. I meant to type 'matches', thinking of the various F-disciplines.

Benchrest got into my head because I was trying to remember if they had banned the Savage right bolt/left port target actions from BR factory class.


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  #170  
Old 07-21-2015, 7:53 AM
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Originally Posted by JMP View Post
I understand how you can install a new barrel to get it to a headspace that will work using a gauge. My question was at the method of exact repeatability of chamber dimensions when you swap barrels and put the old one back on. How do you do so in a manner so that you return to precise chamber dimensions that you had prior to taking off the barrel you had previously fit.

You can't.
The barrel is subject to turning in the receiver while final torque is applied to the nut.
The best you can do is to get within 0.001" IF you have incremental headspace gauges.
If you only have standard go/no-go, you will be somewhere within the 0.004" acceptable range.
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  #171  
Old 07-21-2015, 7:57 AM
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I need to have one of these. There are too many clever well executed features not to. I have my FFL looking for a 243. Settling in for a wait, because I suspect it's going to be awhile.

My take on it is it's the next evolutionary step beyond a tube gun. They've dropped the tube and added its attachment points to the receiver.

It looks to me like it could be rebarreled with many standard contour blanks. The front of an AR15 receiver is 1 1/4 x 18 with a minor diameter of 1.190". The tenon would be cut and threaded as if it was a nut less design. The first couple inches just past the shoulder would be threaded 1 1/4 x 18, and any 1.25" section ahead of the threads turned down to just below the minor diameter. The shoulder feature could be performed with a lock nut or spacer. Won't know for sure until I try it and I'm pretty sure someone will give it a shot before I get a chance to.
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  #172  
Old 07-21-2015, 8:03 AM
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Originally Posted by ShaunBrady View Post
It looks to me like it could be rebarreled with many standard contour blanks. The front of an AR15 receiver is 1 1/4 x 18 with a minor diameter of 1.190". The tenon would be cut and threaded as if it was a nut less design. The first couple inches just past the shoulder would be threaded 1 1/4 x 18, and any 1.25" section ahead of the threads turned down to just below the minor diameter. The shoulder feature could be performed with a lock nut or spacer.

Rather than cutting AR receiver threads on the barrel itself and threading an AR barrel nut on there, I was just thinking of making a replacement barrel nut that the desired handguard attaches to and then boring the inside out so that the barrel clamps it against the receiver like a recoil lug.
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  #173  
Old 07-21-2015, 8:12 AM
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Originally Posted by JMP View Post
I agree that magazine systems are a nuisance as it adds about $100-200 to the cost of a rifle that should be a non-issue. I am sure that the factory configuration will shoot just fine for most shooters. Really, an even larger part of self-imposed limitations on accuracy is the ammunition that most folks use.


That isn't answering the question I had. Once you set the nut everything seems to be just fine as most of the time you will not care about +/- 0.001" in the initial setting of your headspace as you form the brass to that chamber. The question was after removing the barrel and reinstalling the barrel, how do you set it to guarantee an identical return to your existing headspace? Any time you need to bring in gauges, it seems like there'd be the opportunity for a small variance and you'd potentially need to resize your brass on the first go if you were 0.001 too far in, or shoot brass that isn't well sized if you were slightly further out. It's the process that folks use to ensure exact repeatability that I am curious about as chamber gauges are only precise to a certain level.

You are right that repeatability will suffer with a nut-and-gauge system. To what extent, I couldn't comment as I don't swap calibers.

I am certain it is not as precise as having Randall cut a shoulder on a barrel, but for many, the variance it might produce in accuracy isn't going to make a difference for what they are doing. I also believe that the floating bolt head of the Savage helps to compensate for some of these variations.

There are many who use a piece of fireformed brass as the go gauge, and a piece of scotch tape on the same piece of brass for the no-go gauge.

Think of nut-guns as the AR-15s of the bolt world.


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  #174  
Old 07-21-2015, 8:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Standish View Post
You're being too picky on what I said, as at the end you ultimately agree with it.

My point is, for many guns, you have to put a "desired DBM" on it. This costs minimum of $130+~$75 install fee for a PTG system towards $330+ fitment fee for something like a badger. That or you buy a rifle like an AI which obviously is much more expensive(and we get it, it's a more quality rifle)

So basically $200-400 more to get aics compatable DBM. That's 1/5-2/5 of the cost of this rifle alone and it can accept an even more broad spectrum of mags, including the standard of precision a mags; the aics mag. Better?
I wasn’t trying to be picky or argumentative with what you were saying… if anything I was agreeing with along with verbalizing MY observations regarding magazines/DBM.

You make a valid point regarding the added cost of a DBM on any stock which isn’t inletted for one…
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  #175  
Old 07-21-2015, 8:20 AM
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Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
Rather than cutting AR receiver threads on the barrel itself and threading an AR barrel nut on there, I was just thinking of making a replacement barrel nut that the desired handguard attaches to and then boring the inside out so that the barrel clamps it against the receiver like a recoil lug.

Oooh, I like where this is going!


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  #176  
Old 07-21-2015, 8:26 AM
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I would probably be more interested if it had irons on it as well, but I guess that is just how they chose to go. If it had irons like their gun scout, I'd be all over this to match up with my M1s
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  #177  
Old 07-21-2015, 8:50 AM
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You are right that repeatability will suffer with a nut-and-gauge system. To what extent, I couldn't comment as I don't swap calibers.

I am certain it is not as precise as having Randall cut a shoulder on a barrel, but for many, the variance it might produce in accuracy isn't going to make a difference for what they are doing. I also believe that the floating bolt head of the Savage helps to compensate for some of these variations.

There are many who use a piece of fireformed brass as the go gauge, and a piece of scotch tape on the same piece of brass for the no-go gauge.

What he is talking about is trying to use a nut gun as a switch barrel rifle without having g to re-adjust sizing dies and case shoulders while maintaining neck-sized cases.

On a machined-shoulder gun, the barrel repeats headspace to 0.0001" precision.
There is NO change in headspace.
With a barrel nut, you are adjusting headspace every time so it's not going to be exactly the same.
This means that neck sized cases may need to be full length sized after a barrel swap if the headspace is changed,

With the variation in position of the barrel, the zero is also going to wander between barrel swaps as well.

A proper "switch barrel" setup will have multiple fixed-shoulder barrels.

A barrel nut setup is more appropriate for someone who want to re-barrel at home but is not appropriate for switch-barrel use.

The floating savage bolt head does nothing for headspace variation.
The head floats so that it will follow the receiver and keep both lugs in contact regardless of how straight or crooked the receiver may be.
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  #178  
Old 07-21-2015, 8:53 AM
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I would probably be more interested if it had irons on it as well, but I guess that is just how they chose to go. If it had irons like their gun scout, I'd be all over this to match up with my M1s

It has enough rail on it that you could attach AR type front and rear rail mount sights yourself.
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  #179  
Old 07-21-2015, 9:03 AM
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It has enough rail on it that you could attach AR type front and rear rail mount sights yourself.
But you would need the zero cant receiver rail to do this correctly.
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  #180  
Old 07-21-2015, 9:06 AM
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But you would need the zero cant receiver rail to do this correctly.

1/3 of a degree angle on the rear sight will completely disappear while adjusting the sights to zero.
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  #181  
Old 07-21-2015, 9:10 AM
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Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
You can't.
The barrel is subject to turning in the receiver while final torque is applied to the nut.
The best you can do is to get within 0.001" IF you have incremental headspace gauges.
If you only have standard go/no-go, you will be somewhere within the 0.004" acceptable range.
That is what I was thinking, and I've been confused why people refer to barrel nut guns as "easy" for barrel swaps. Personally, due to my limitations of gauging and measuring, the 0.004" is about the same as I'd think, which is pretty much just using go and no-go. However, I am wondering if there is a way to mark the barrel to get the threads lined up exactly for where you want to tighten the nut. Could you improve that with a visual mark for thread alignment, or are there still issues with the way the nut engages?

I do not think they are good for barrel "swaps" as you need repeatability. In my way of thinking, it is MORE economical to get one good rifle and 3 different barrels that you can swap. To save money in the long run, I think it is better to go with a non-"nut" system. This is assuming that all your barrels are fit.

That said, I'd give it a try if it were my first rifle, but I already have all the barrellings (in multiples) of 308, 6.5CD, and 243. So, I will say that they made a nice cartridge choice, but a poor one for me since that's what I already have.
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  #182  
Old 07-21-2015, 9:14 AM
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Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
Rather than cutting AR receiver threads on the barrel itself and threading an AR barrel nut on there, I was just thinking of making a replacement barrel nut that the desired handguard attaches to and then boring the inside out so that the barrel clamps it against the receiver like a recoil lug.
That's a good idea too. There is what looks to be a lock piece under the front action screw. I'm not sure what it's function is, maybe locking the AR nut down? If it's something else, something along the lines of what your thinking might be required. Maybe someday soon something along the lines of what you're describing will be available from Brownells. Making them one at a time is an expensive way to go.

More standard parts and less fabrication with threading the barrel, including the standard barrel blanks. A second setup between centers to thread and profile for a few inches isn't that big a deal. More than threading for a muzzle brake, less than chambering.

Either method opens the door to a short true because you're not dependent on the Ruger nut any more.

Not sure about how to do extraction timing or if it'll even be needed. Maybe move the handle back and forth by undercutting one side of the bolt handle tenon and building up the other?

With time, these things could become like the 10/22s that cost as much as an Anschutz. With AI as the new ceiling.

It's an intriguing gun. Probably not for everybody though.
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Old 07-21-2015, 9:26 AM
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That's a good idea too. There is what looks to be a lock piece under the front action screw. I'm not sure what it's function is, maybe locking the AR nut down? If it's something else, something along the lines of what your thinking might be required. Maybe someday soon something along the lines of what you're describing will be available from Brownells. Making them one at a time is an expensive way to go.



More standard parts and less fabrication with threading the barrel, including the standard barrel blanks. A second setup between centers to thread and profile for a few inches isn't that big a deal. More than threading for a muzzle brake, less than chambering.



Either method opens the door to a short true because you're not dependent on the Ruger nut any more.



Not sure about how to do extraction timing or if it'll even be needed. Maybe move the handle back and forth by undercutting one side of the bolt handle tenon and building up the other?



With time, these things could become like the 10/22s that cost as much as an Anschutz. With AI as the new ceiling.



It's an intriguing gun. Probably not for everybody though.

No need for special contouring of the blank.
The "lug" is counter bored to clear the blank.
The "lug" could be a 2" long cylinder that is 1.4" diameter.
Then, a handguard channel could attach to the lug so that the top is left open, allowing a lower scope mounting.
This is unlikely to be able to be mass produced as the barrel still needs to be fitted to the specific receiver/bolt.
There is no more "nut" in this system.
Getting rid of the lock nut makes every lock nut rifle better...



By design, barrel nut guns can't have timed extractor cuts in the barrel so there is no worry there.
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Old 07-21-2015, 9:28 AM
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On a barrel nut rifle it will return to the same point of headspace if done properly.
You drop a headspace gauge in only one time. After that you use the witness mark to return the barrel back to that same point each time. Yes it is possible some shooters can't line up a scribed line but those types shouldn't be reloading or shooting either.

The floating bolt head is used to keep the locking lugs engaged while firing. On a typical Remington 700 when the lugs are lapped there is no trigger in the action. When the gun is put back together the 22-28 firing pin spring holds the bolt all the way up in its bore and upon firing it drops back down creating uneven lug engagement and creating unwanted vibrations.
The floating head eliminates the locking lugs coming on and off of the lug abutments.
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Old 07-21-2015, 9:31 AM
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That is what I was thinking, and I've been confused why people refer to barrel nut guns as "easy" for barrel swaps. Personally, due to my limitations of gauging and measuring, the 0.004" is about the same as I'd think, which is pretty much just using go and no-go. However, I am wondering if there is a way to mark the barrel to get the threads lined up exactly for where you want to tighten the nut. Could you improve that with a visual mark for thread alignment, or are there still issues with the way the nut engages?

I do not think they are good for barrel "swaps" as you need repeatability. In my way of thinking, it is MORE economical to get one good rifle and 3 different barrels that you can swap. To save money in the long run, I think it is better to go with a non-"nut" system. This is assuming that all your barrels are fit.

That said, I'd give it a try if it were my first rifle, but I already have all the barrellings (in multiples) of 308, 6.5CD, and 243. So, I will say that they made a nice cartridge choice, but a poor one for me since that's what I already have.
Of course you can always reduce assembly error by using the same procedure every time, but you are still limited by human precision in this case.

If you were always careful to thread the barrel down to a marked point, grease the barrel nut the same every time, torque the nut down the same, you could come pretty close to the same every time, much better than just threading on and hoping for the best.

If you were to go quite a bit farther; create a fixture that you can insert from the receiver end that would become your temporary datum while torquing the barrel nut down. I can't think of a way to get more assembly precision than that. It's not much better than using gauges to get the chamber set correctly, you still need to carry an extra gauge/fixture to get it right, but it should be much more repeatable. Nothing like the simplicity and precision of changing a true switch barrel.
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Old 07-21-2015, 9:32 AM
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The floating bolt head is used to keep the locking lugs engaged while firing. On a typical Remington 700 when the lugs are lapped there is no trigger in the action. When the gun is put back together the 22-28 firing pin spring holds the bolt all the way up in its bore and upon firing it drops back down creating uneven lug engagement and creating unwanted vibrations.

The floating head eliminates the locking lugs coming on and off of the lug abutments.

On a 700 with only 0.002" bolt body clearance, this is not an issue to worry about.
Factory guns have around 0.008" clearance though.
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Old 07-21-2015, 9:50 AM
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Frankly, most of this stuff is academic and esoteric to the point of irrelevance for 99% of shooters out there, even the ones that participate in PRS-type competitions. Yes, if you're shooting benchrest or some other type of competition that requires pure mechanical accuracy, then by all means turn your meplats, weigh and sort your brass, measure every powder throw to 0.05 grains, load your bullets just off the lands, have your chambers custom cut for your best handloads, etc. But in the comps in which the RPR will most likely participate, variables like shooting from odd, uncomfortable positions, controlling your breath after a 50 yard run, holding for wind, punching through mirage, and leading movers will completely swamp out stuff like whether all your once-fired Lapua brass has perfectly concentric necks.

I'm not saying having a mechanical system with extreme accuracy is a bad thing. Far from it. I'm just saying that taking advantage of that type of accuracy is the final step in a long, long line of steps, most of which the vast majority of shooters will never take. If the RPR gets shooters excited to go do some distance shooting or participate in comps, everyone wins!
It probably is, but this rifle is marketed and named as "precision". The word "precision" seems to have because a popular buzz word. What it comes down to, I think, is that everyone has a different idea of what precision entails.

After a lot of money spending and trying about every product out there, I've found what seems to work. In particular, I have spent most my effort in seeing what works best for ELR shooting. Obviously, the key to performing well over long ranges is with bullet selection. As the bullet gets more efficient (mostly monolithic bullets), what happens is they become extremely sensitive to their seating and headspace relative to the chamber.

Thus, I have concluded that the most efficient way to obtain the results you need is to get a minimum size chamber, in headspace, neck diameter, and freebore. Then, you can fit the chamber to the bullet by using a unithroater tool. Thus, in the case of very long range shooting, I think you actually want to go to the extra step of sizing your chamber to fit a precise bullet you will use. I do not sort bullets as I'd rather pay to get the bullets made and tested for high tolerance. If the bullet requires sorting, then it is not really for precision.
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Old 07-21-2015, 9:51 AM
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No need for special contouring of the blank.
The "lug" is counter bored to clear the blank.
The "lug" could be a 2" long cylinder that is 1.4" diameter.
Then, a handguard channel could attach to the lug so that the top is left open, allowing a lower scope mounting.
This is unlikely to be able to be mass produced as the barrel still needs to be fitted to the specific receiver/bolt.
There is no more "nut" in this system.
Getting rid of the lock nut makes every lock nut rifle better...

By design, barrel nut guns can't have timed extractor cuts in the barrel so there is no worry there.
Got it, that would be a stout solution.

I'm proposing no more head spacing nut as well. The tenon threads are smaller than the AR barrel nut threads, leaving a shoulder.

The extraction timing I was referring to was primary with the bolt handle and receiver camming against each other, not barrel clocking.

So you do work on Savages!
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Old 07-21-2015, 10:25 AM
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Randall
There is a whole cottage Industry about fixing the Remington 700 bolt slopslop lug bounce issue. Greg Tannel works round the clock boring actions to 0.705 and Dave Kiff is back ordered on bolts trying to get rid of the bounce.

Bill Calfee has a couple guys making 90 degree sears now so the bolt doesn't drop anymoreanymore.

Shaun
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Old 07-21-2015, 10:51 AM
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What he is talking about is trying to use a nut gun as a switch barrel rifle without having g to re-adjust sizing dies and case shoulders while maintaining neck-sized cases.

On a machined-shoulder gun, the barrel repeats headspace to 0.0001" precision.
There is NO change in headspace.
With a barrel nut, you are adjusting headspace every time so it's not going to be exactly the same.
This means that neck sized cases may need to be full length sized after a barrel swap if the headspace is changed,

With the variation in position of the barrel, the zero is also going to wander between barrel swaps as well.

A proper "switch barrel" setup will have multiple fixed-shoulder barrels.

A barrel nut setup is more appropriate for someone who want to re-barrel at home but is not appropriate for switch-barrel use.

The floating savage bolt head does nothing for headspace variation.
The head floats so that it will follow the receiver and keep both lugs in contact regardless of how straight or crooked the receiver may be.

Copy that!


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Old 07-21-2015, 10:59 AM
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Shaun
Jim Ketchum is working on Savages in Petaluma 762-3014 tell him Lynn says hello.
Is there anybody in this game you don't know?

I build my own guns. I was only teasing Randall about my perception of his preference for Remington's. Hoping he took it in good humor.

Glad to see you're up and about.

When is our next match? It'd be fun to bring one of these guns to see if I can get on the URSA list ahead of JMP with it. Again. Looks like the toughest part is going to be finding one of the guns in time.
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Old 07-21-2015, 11:08 AM
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What he is talking about is trying to use a nut gun as a switch barrel rifle without having g to re-adjust sizing dies and case shoulders while maintaining neck-sized cases.

On a machined-shoulder gun, the barrel repeats headspace to 0.0001" precision.
There is NO change in headspace.
With a barrel nut, you are adjusting headspace every time so it's not going to be exactly the same.
This means that neck sized cases may need to be full length sized after a barrel swap if the headspace is changed,

With the variation in position of the barrel, the zero is also going to wander between barrel swaps as well.

A proper "switch barrel" setup will have multiple fixed-shoulder barrels.

A barrel nut setup is more appropriate for someone who want to re-barrel at home but is not appropriate for switch-barrel use.

The floating savage bolt head does nothing for headspace variation.
The head floats so that it will follow the receiver and keep both lugs in contact regardless of how straight or crooked the receiver may be.
Yes, indeed, this is exactly what I was talking about. I like the idea of having a setup where you can run multiple cartridges; otherwise, who he heck could afford the guns and scopes?

So, indeed, I suppose there are no free lunches as this is basically a starter's rifle to simply pick one of the 3 cartridges offered and stick with it. I don't like the way the 308 is offered only in 20", but the 243 is 26" and the 6.5 is in 24" so that'll be a reasonable start. For people learning, I'd go 6.5CD and buy 140gr Hornady A-Max ammo, and it'll probably provide the best results of the rifles out there for under $1k.

If one is looking further down the road, I'd go with something you can interchange cartridges. Personally, I have ended up with too many guns and too many scopes by taking similar approaches in the past. It's the scope that kills you in cost. If you shoot three cartridges with one rifle and one scope, then it starts making more economical sense.

So, there are pros and cons. Does anyone know what the firing pin hole size is on these? To me, that's now a deal killer. This is why I now like the Rem 700 bolts since they are easily obtained with small firing pin holes. I don't like the Rem 700 configuration, but you always end up compromising.

It absolutely sucks that you have to put so much extra into a entry level gun like a Remington, but you will eventually find that little things like your bolt design end up killing you later on if you can't replace it.

I give the green light to those starting and want to shoot 6.5CD, as mentioned. However, I'd remove the forward rail so you do not need a 1.5" mount for your bell to clear. Realistically, if you want to actually USE your forward rail, you will likely want about a 1.85" mount so that it synchronizes with a clip-on imaging device. So, I'd suggest that folks be a bit careful with the front rail as I see it as a detriment rather than an advantage.
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Old 07-21-2015, 11:27 AM
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However, I'd remove the forward rail so you do not need a 1.5" mount for your bell to clear. Realistically, if you want to actually USE your forward rail, you will likely want about a 1.85" mount so that it synchronizes with a clip-on imaging device. So, I'd suggest that folks be a bit careful with the front rail as I see it as a detriment rather than an advantage.
Without a drop comb stock you need a 1.5" mount to use the scope anyway, so I don't see the handguard as an issue.
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Old 07-21-2015, 12:59 PM
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I bought one in 6.5 CM yesterday. I liked the features and non-proprietary aspects of many of those features. It's my feeling that the stock, grip, mags and fore end all being interchangeable with standard available parts DOES mean that overall this rifle is more non-proprietary than proprietary.

As far as accuracy goes we will see. I immediately dismiss those Ruger haters that say that "accurate Ruger is an oxymoron". Get out of the Way Back Machine and realize that even the Mini problem was addressed long ago. The 10/22 is a legend. My .308 American, even though it is super light and has a pencil hunting barrel, is a 3/4 MOA rifle with factory ammo and it cost under $350!! If you're talking about Benchrest accuracy, then you are right.

Lastly, it is very clear that the RPR was positioned as an entry level gun for the Precision Rifle discipline that is exploding across the country. You can layer your hair splitting about the word "precision" on it, but that is in your noggin only. For most, this will do 90-100% of what these shooters want at 25-30% of the cost. Frank's results were awesome (1/2 MOA @ 850) but I completely understand the skepticism of a pre-production, cherry-picked piece. I am a strong believer in repeatable, statistically valid, peer-reviewed data so we shall see.
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Old 07-21-2015, 1:03 PM
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I bought one in 6.5 CM yesterday. I liked the features and non-proprietary aspects of many of those features. It's my feeling that the stock, grip, mags and fore end all being interchangeable with standard available parts DOES mean that overall this rifle is more non-proprietary than proprietary.


Except all of the major components, the ones that are a contributing factor to performance/precision... are proprietary. That's like saying a remington 700 footprint sucks because you can't bolt a bunch of individual components to it like an AR, even though there are dozens(probably more like hundreds) of stocks available in pretty much any config you could ask for. Like I mentioned in an earlier post, the only thing this does, that existing rifles don't, is allow the use of free-float AR handguards and has significantly less available component choice that pretty much anything on the market at the moment(that may change if it's popular enough to stick around, but I'm talking about what's out right now).
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Old 07-21-2015, 1:07 PM
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Except all of the major components, the ones that are a contributing factor to performance/precision... are proprietary. That's like saying a remington 700 footprint sucks because you can't bolt a bunch of individual components to it like an AR, even though there are dozens(probably more like hundreds) of stocks available in pretty much any config you could ask for.
I believe the components I referenced all contribute to performance and precision (and repeatability, and ergonomics, and familiarity). is right.
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Old 07-21-2015, 1:10 PM
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I believe the components I referenced all contribute to performance and precision (and repeatability, and ergonomics, and familiarity). is right.
You mean the same things other than your choice of handguard that you get from plenty of manufacturers for other actions? I don't see how you could put a grip, buttstock, and handguard above the barrel, bolt, action, and trigger regarding the performance of a precision rifle.
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Old 07-21-2015, 1:14 PM
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You mean the same things other than your choice of handguard that you get from plenty of manufacturers for other actions? I don't see how you could put a grip, buttstock, and handguard above the barrel, bolt, action, and trigger regarding the performance of a precision rifle.
I didn't put them above, I just didn't completely dismiss them. By your definition, is there any bolt action rifle that is NOT proprietary? It would seem that each manufacturer is then proprietary unto itself and Ruger would be no worse.
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Old 07-21-2015, 1:15 PM
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Sorry, Kes for yet another rathole on this thread.
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Old 07-21-2015, 1:18 PM
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I didn't put them above, I just didn't completely dismiss them. By your definition, is there any bolt action rifle that is NOT proprietary? It would seem that each manufacturer is then proprietary unto itself and Ruger would be no worse.
Ok, and aside from the safety, and handguard, as I already mentioned you can get the buttstock and grip of your choice on a common rifle like say... a remington 700(or any other footprint that people are making those mini-chassis things for that you can bolt AR components to), without limiting your choice in components that are more critical.
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